our family met yesterday with another family at our church. Their daughter used to be sweet friends with my DD. But their daughter has been spreading gossip about my DD lately and been misbehaving and doing typical teen drama behaviors. Their daughter is actually not our problem. We get it. Kids do that. Our problem is with her parents. We know for a fact that they have been going around to other families that love my DD, and that my DD loves and telling them all these reasons why they should not like my DD. Basically grown ups on a smear campaign against a our girl, for really no good reason. In fact, some of what they are telling the parents qualifies as slut shaming, and the rumors are lies. So I have a problem with them.
We met with them yesterday, more in an official capacity because they help my DH out at the church/school. So part of that meeting was that they should not help until we get this resolved. They FLAT OUT lied the whole meeting. Denying, minimizing, justifying, etc. When I would press them (because I have facts and proof) they would admit to their rumors and words, but then the said I should be ashamed for believing that they would do that, because I should know they are good people. So when they would admit to their words, they would say that they said that, but they didn't mean that.
Towards the end my DD interrupted the meeting to speak to me for a second (she wanted to remind me to say something). I apologized for the interruption and went to the door, I said, "I am sorry, she is just really hurt by what you have said about her." When I opened the door to talk to her the wife went off on my DD right in front of me. I guess she was upset because my DD may have heard some of the discussion, and was trying to remind me something to say. So the wife said, in a voice of utter contempt and disgust, "She is highly inappropriate interrupting a meeting with adults, this is an adult discussion." I was already very angry at all the evasion and manipulation. Also they hide their hatred under a fake smile and Christian act, but I saw her mask fall off in that moment and I saw the hatred (so did my DD).
I don't know what happened but I yelled at her and said, "Don't you EVER talk to my daughter like that. You are the one who hurt her, you do not get to shame her for being hurt." But it was yelling. I was mad. They were indignant and said the meeting was over. It got bad. The husband said, "Honey, show them the list." and the wife smiled at me (wickedly) and patted her purse and said, "No I am going to save this for later."
So the whole time they lied and pretended that they never did anything to my kid. They were sitting there with a list in her purse of all the things they have against my DD (probably the same stuff they are telling other parents). Here is the thing. After this happened. I cried so hard. I was so sorry I yelled. I promised DH and a pastor at the church that I would apologize to them for losing my temper. But today, I am not sorry. I mean, I am sorry that I let myself down by losing my temper. But is it wrong of me to not want to apologize anymore, to a family that is plotting, and admitting to plotting to destroying my DD's reputation (with lies)? Is it okay that I am no longer sorry for yelling at them to not talk to my DD that way? I am so confused. I was never allowed to be angry or stand up for myself, so my default is feeling guilty.
I didn't name call, I didn't curse at them, or threaten them. In anger I raised my voice and told them what I would not allow them to do to my kid. They did actually did things to harm her and they refused to acknowledge it or take responsibility or apologize. They were even making passive aggressive digs at me the whole meeting. About how I am "never" at church so I wouldn't know how "nice" they are to DD. But I don't care if they are nice to her face, they hate her in their hearts. "Nice" is not the same as "kind."
Yikes!
Based on what you describe, the other family sounds personality disordered, toxic and unprincipled!
I completely understand the anger and frustration when someone is harming someone you love, especially your child (no matter the age) -- I have had similar experiences with my ex- in laws and exh (as it related to my daughter -- their own blood). They had something to hide - and my daughter spoke the truth, so she became their enemy.
Back then, I tried to speak to everyone about the situation ---from a place of wanting to clear things up having no clue that it would only make things worse. Some people are incapable of reasoning. Incapable of extending outside of themselves and their own self-serving needs. Incapable of admitting their wrongs or imperfections. Incapable of being in the full reality.
As difficult (and impossible) as this may sound --- try not to take it personal. My therapist said that to me years ago and I almost blew a gasket!
How can you not take a blatant insult and attack personal? Here's how she explained it to me:
It's not about you. It's about them. What is wrong -- is inside of them. They behave-- in accordance with their level of consciousness. They can't be anything different. No one can give, what they do not have. So, they can't give you or your DD respect (they have none to give-- not even for themselves)... they can't show genuine kindness (they don't know or have any kindness to give).
And, don't beat yourself up for not wanting to apologize. What could you possibly apologize for? For being angry? Or frustrated? For being outraged? We are supposed to feel outraged when someone is behaving in an outrageous manner (toxic). If you didn't feel outraged, you would be no different than them.
And, raising your voice -- yelling, is a natural response to feeling completely unheard or threatened. I don't know any parent that wouldn't step up to defend their child or family. In fact, it would be weird if you didn't. We are all human Dinha-sore -- and we are allowed to have frustration, preferences, and even dislike certain people.
The only one I would apologize to -- would be to myself and your DD--- for believing that you could actually reason with someone that is completely toxic and incapable of reasoning. And even then -- how could you have known--- since one does not expect that type of behavior from a fellow church goer...?
Sending you lots of love!
XOXOXO
M
QuoteBased on what you describe, the other family sounds personality disordered, toxic and unprincipled!
I completely understand the anger and frustration when someone is harming someone you love, especially your child (no matter the age) -- I have had similar experiences with my ex- in laws and exh (as it related to my daughter -- their own blood). They had something to hide - and my daughter spoke the truth, so she became their enemy.
Back then, I tried to speak to everyone about the situation ---from a place of wanting to clear things up having no clue that it would only make things worse. Some people are incapable of reasoning. Incapable of extending outside of themselves and their own self-serving needs. Incapable of admitting their wrongs or imperfections. Incapable of being in the full reality.
As difficult (and impossible) as this may sound --- try not to take it personal. My therapist said that to me years ago and I almost blew a gasket!
How can you not take a blatant insult and attack personal? Here's how she explained it to me:
It's not about you. It's about them. What is wrong -- is inside of them. They behave-- in accordance with their level of consciousness. They can't be anything different. No one can give, what they do not have. So, they can't give you or your DD respect (they have none to give-- not even for themselves)... they can't show genuine kindness (they don't know or have any kindness to give).
And, don't beat yourself up for not wanting to apologize. What could you possibly apologize for? For being angry? Or frustrated? For being outraged? We are supposed to feel outraged when someone is behaving in an outrageous manner (toxic). If you didn't feel outraged, you would be no different than them.
And, raising your voice -- yelling, is a natural response to feeling completely unheard or threatened. I don't know any parent that wouldn't step up to defend their child or family. In fact, it would be weird if you didn't. We are all human Dinha-sore -- and we are allowed to have frustration, preferences, and even dislike certain people.
The only one I would apologize to -- would be to myself and your DD--- for believing that you could actually reason with someone that is completely toxic and incapable of reasoning. And even then -- how could you have known--- since one does not expect that type of behavior from a fellow church goer...?
Sending you lots of love!
XOXOXO
M
Thank you so much for your input. I fully believe that these people are the communal narcissists that get talked about in the YouTube videos. They are so condescending, and grandiose, and their words brag constantly on what amazing Christians they are. And yet, they were KICKED OUT of the last church they attended/worked at. KICKED OUT of their old church!!!! And coming over here, trying to cause trouble with my family.
My DH and one of the pastors at our church want me to apologize, but they also want me to not give them any ammunition to use against me. The pastor essentially told me in other words to protect myself by not JADEing. And last night, I actually volunteered to apologize, but today, like I said, I just don't feel it (I think what I was sorry for was like you said, letting myself down, and giving them something to gossip about me that is true). i don't want to go back on my word, but I feel like if I apologize it doesn't mean anything unless I mean it. I don't want to be fake, or hypocritical, or lying. It is soooooo nice to hear that you don't feel like I owe them an apology. I am still in the FOG so I don't know and usually err on the side of saying sorry for anything and everything.
I am just so confused, because on one hand I feel like apologizing to these people is dangerous--like exposing my jugular. Or pathetic--like a dog rolling over and showing their belly.
On the other hand, I want to be fully responsible for my choices, and actions, and behaviors. So I am thinking, okay, I want to be responsible but I don't feel "sorry." I don't want to lie. I was wondering if saying, "I regret losing my temper." Is that an apology? I am not saying sorry. Is that enough?
At the same time. I feel deeply hurt and wounded by their behavior toward my family, so I also want to be able to say, "but, xyz." And I HATE apologies that have a "but" attached.
I was told I shouldn't text them the apology, but say sorry on the phone or face to face, but how can the conversation proceed after I say, "I regret losing my temper"? Do I just say, "Okay, bye"? And hang up or walk away? Because I don't want to keep speaking to them after the apology and be tempted to grovel, i don't want my nose rubbed in it. I don't want to say, "but you...." but I don't know what else to say.
What I really
want to say, is "...but our friendship is over. I have lost 100% of my respect and trust in you. And until you are ready to take responsibility for your actions, we have nothing else to say." (and i want to put that all in a text right now and hit send, and get it over with).
Except the church wants me to meet with them again (and I already told my DH that I don't know if it is such a great idea). And I am
much angrier now than I was before my last meeting. What if I lose my temper again? I mean they are really outrageous (like you said). I don't want to meet with them until they are ready to show some type of sincere remorse for their actions. Should I refuse to meet? Am I being petty? Childish?
And just for context I need to remember, I raised my voice and said, "You will not speak to my daughter that way..." They systematically went around to the families of my DD's closest friends and told them LIES about my daughter, implying she is sexually active (they even went to my DD's boyfriends parents with these lies), cruel, vulgar, ungodly, etc. and other vile gossip about her. Then they sat in front of me and LIED about it, until they knew I had the proof. Then they spoke to my DD in disgust and contempt right in front of my face.
I mean it is bad enough that my DD knows that they hate her, but it wasn't enough for them. They felt like it was their God given duty to make sure that everyone who LOVES my daughter would by their gossip reject her. She was terrified that she would be hated by everybody, that every solid grown up in her life, that she has known since birth would reject her because of the lies and gossip. That is some attachment trauma waiting to happen.
And people want ME to apologize.
Dinah,
Your story reminds me of a past experience with a N. If you don't mind, I will tell my story and you will be able to relate.
I was a library member for the past 15 yrs. At a meeting, the president said I should step out because she felt I was in conflict of interest to make a decision. I told her she was in the same conflict of interest and if I needed to step out so did she. Now you have to understand other members of the board at the time did not have the capacity to deal with this narcassist. One was dealing with cancer, which was taking a toll on her, most others would not speak their mind and let the bully do as she pleased to avoid confrontation.
So I step out and of course the vote went on her side. I contacted the city and spoke with the mayor and explained what had happened at the meeting. The president of the library board contated me to appologies, which I knew she was not sincere since she would not retract the vote. I let her know that she could say she was sorry all she wanted but I knew deep down she did it to keep her position. I also told her that I would never trust her again and my relationship with her was going to be nul from now on.
I stand by your decision by not apologizing for defending your daughter. That woman is just waiting for you to kneel and then gloat and attack once again until she tarnishes your family to anyone who would listen to her rant. Cutting ties and ignoring her would be my choice. Keeping a conversation or relationship with that woman either at church or elsewhere would give her opportunities to back talk about you or your daughter. If ignored, she will go on to her next victim since she thrives on bullying others to raise herself. Why would you appologies for defending your daughter? Raising your voice is not a sin, it's an espression of your feelings. You as a mother and Christian refused to let her talk to your daughter that way. I respect, and applaud for what you did! Standing up to a bully and sticking to it is commendable and you should cut any interation with these people.
I'm also wondering what that woman's husband had to say about the whole situation? Was he just going along with her or was her there just for her moral support? Did he tell his wife to sit down and shut up? My M is narcassist as well and she would love to have my F by her side for moral support even if he said nothing during her rants. He had to be a "yes" man or else he would be the one being bullied by her. So most likely this man was her puppet to tag along with her.
I hope my story would help understand what a bully and N is capable of doing in order to be right and destroy someone else's reputation. Protect your daughter from her.
Having grown up in a toxic home and toxic church, I am rendered speechless by my anger at these "white washed tombs." Jesus called it like it was and told us to shake the dust from our sandals and not cast our treasures before swine when dealing with impossible people and situations.
Can you walk away from this place? I know your spouse is part of the ministry, but good Lord! Enough is enough! Sorry, I know that's easier said than done, but I don't see any redeeming qualities, any soul sustenance there for you or your DD.
I am delighted you yelled at this awful woman on your daughter's behalf, although that really isn't you. These types provoke anger and then act the victim when they receive it.
I tried for 47 years to "fix" my Nmom. Some things/people don't want fixing and for our own health (including spiritual health), we must sometimes walk away.
:hug:
Quote from: Dinah-sore on November 16, 2019, 11:15:06 PM
QuoteBased on what you describe, the other family sounds personality disordered, toxic and unprincipled!
I completely understand the anger and frustration when someone is harming someone you love, especially your child (no matter the age) -- I have had similar experiences with my ex- in laws and exh (as it related to my daughter -- their own blood). They had something to hide - and my daughter spoke the truth, so she became their enemy.
Back then, I tried to speak to everyone about the situation ---from a place of wanting to clear things up having no clue that it would only make things worse. Some people are incapable of reasoning. Incapable of extending outside of themselves and their own self-serving needs. Incapable of admitting their wrongs or imperfections. Incapable of being in the full reality.
As difficult (and impossible) as this may sound --- try not to take it personal. My therapist said that to me years ago and I almost blew a gasket!
How can you not take a blatant insult and attack personal? Here's how she explained it to me:
It's not about you. It's about them. What is wrong -- is inside of them. They behave-- in accordance with their level of consciousness. They can't be anything different. No one can give, what they do not have. So, they can't give you or your DD respect (they have none to give-- not even for themselves)... they can't show genuine kindness (they don't know or have any kindness to give).
And, don't beat yourself up for not wanting to apologize. What could you possibly apologize for? For being angry? Or frustrated? For being outraged? We are supposed to feel outraged when someone is behaving in an outrageous manner (toxic). If you didn't feel outraged, you would be no different than them.
And, raising your voice -- yelling, is a natural response to feeling completely unheard or threatened. I don't know any parent that wouldn't step up to defend their child or family. In fact, it would be weird if you didn't. We are all human Dinha-sore -- and we are allowed to have frustration, preferences, and even dislike certain people.
The only one I would apologize to -- would be to myself and your DD--- for believing that you could actually reason with someone that is completely toxic and incapable of reasoning. And even then -- how could you have known--- since one does not expect that type of behavior from a fellow church goer...?
Sending you lots of love!
XOXOXO
M
Thank you so much for your input. I fully believe that these people are the communal narcissists that get talked about in the YouTube videos. They are so condescending, and grandiose, and their words brag constantly on what amazing Christians they are. And yet, they were KICKED OUT of the last church they attended/worked at. KICKED OUT of their old church!!!! And coming over here, trying to cause trouble with my family.
My DH and one of the pastors at our church want me to apologize, but they also want me to not give them any ammunition to use against me. The pastor essentially told me in other words to protect myself by not JADEing. And last night, I actually volunteered to apologize, but today, like I said, I just don't feel it (I think what I was sorry for was like you said, letting myself down, and giving them something to gossip about me that is true). i don't want to go back on my word, but I feel like if I apologize it doesn't mean anything unless I mean it. I don't want to be fake, or hypocritical, or lying. It is soooooo nice to hear that you don't feel like I owe them an apology. I am still in the FOG so I don't know and usually err on the side of saying sorry for anything and everything.
I am just so confused, because on one hand I feel like apologizing to these people is dangerous--like exposing my jugular. Or pathetic--like a dog rolling over and showing their belly.
On the other hand, I want to be fully responsible for my choices, and actions, and behaviors. So I am thinking, okay, I want to be responsible but I don't feel "sorry." I don't want to lie. I was wondering if saying, "I regret losing my temper." Is that an apology? I am not saying sorry. Is that enough?
At the same time. I feel deeply hurt and wounded by their behavior toward my family, so I also want to be able to say, "but, xyz." And I HATE apologies that have a "but" attached.
I was told I shouldn't text them the apology, but say sorry on the phone or face to face, but how can the conversation proceed after I say, "I regret losing my temper"? Do I just say, "Okay, bye"? And hang up or walk away? Because I don't want to keep speaking to them after the apology and be tempted to grovel, i don't want my nose rubbed in it. I don't want to say, "but you...." but I don't know what else to say.
What I really want to say, is "...but our friendship is over. I have lost 100% of my respect and trust in you. And until you are ready to take responsibility for your actions, we have nothing else to say." (and i want to put that all in a text right now and hit send, and get it over with).
Except the church wants me to meet with them again (and I already told my DH that I don't know if it is such a great idea). And I am much angrier now than I was before my last meeting. What if I lose my temper again? I mean they are really outrageous (like you said). I don't want to meet with them until they are ready to show some type of sincere remorse for their actions. Should I refuse to meet? Am I being petty? Childish?
And just for context I need to remember, I raised my voice and said, "You will not speak to my daughter that way..." They systematically went around to the families of my DD's closest friends and told them LIES about my daughter, implying she is sexually active (they even went to my DD's boyfriends parents with these lies), cruel, vulgar, ungodly, etc. and other vile gossip about her. Then they sat in front of me and LIED about it, until they knew I had the proof. Then they spoke to my DD in disgust and contempt right in front of my face.
I mean it is bad enough that my DD knows that they hate her, but it wasn't enough for them. They felt like it was their God given duty to make sure that everyone who LOVES my daughter would by their gossip reject her. She was terrified that she would be hated by everybody, that every solid grown up in her life, that she has known since birth would reject her because of the lies and gossip. That is some attachment trauma waiting to happen.
And people want ME to apologize.
Hum...
So, this will be a difficult decision, I feel. To apologize -- and make it ok for those that are asking you to--- or NOT (because you don't really mean it).
There's some truth in what your pastor says. That is, by not apologizing, this family has something to use against you. And, what's most important is protecting yourself. Both of these things are true (IMO). However, the approach, is what I believe is flawed. Here's why:
Apologizing will not provoke a change in this family. They will not feel remorse, nor will it lead them to admit their wrongs. An apology WILL NOT keep them from talking badly about you, your DD, or anyone else. In fact, it may actually "feed" the drama (their drama) -- because they will feel more "powerful". For people of this caliber --- it's about power and seeking "power over" others (because secretly, they feel unbearably powerless). And, beyond that --- if an apology is not genuine -- that rings infinitely true (and everyone will know it). So, that will be used against you too. I can hear it now "she apologized, but it was so FAKE...." OR, you run the risk of being exposed to more drama which may provoke you to raise your voice again or ....
Those are just practical reasons you should consider -- and they have nothing to do with this being a matter of principle. Turn the other cheek? Yes -- but, there's a fine line in there between forgiveness AND being someone's punching bag.
This is a complicated situation, IMO. Sometimes it is ok to apologize in order to keep the peace --- kinda like "agree to disagree".
Would the church (Pastor etc...) be willing to witness with you? Meaning, will they all stand behind you (physically) and go with you to their home to apologize for raising your voice? You could say something like --- I apologize for having conveyed my message in a loud tone of voice. I could have said all that I did -- in a lower tone of voice. How do you feel about that??
M
Sorry you are going through this, amazing the trouble others enjoy causing because of their own untreated issues. A couple things I would add on top of the awesome input by others. Saying "I regret raising my voice/losing my temper" is not a false apology because you do regret those things it sounds like. But I would keep it as simple as that. And I would definitely have at least one unbiased witness, even if it's just stopping her in the hall to say it. Texts/emails/letters can be manipulated and I wouldn't put it past her. Also, I find it so strange she is attacking your daughter for specific behaviors, does her daughter fancy the boyfriend or something? Usually people who spread gossip about a behavior wind up being the ones actually doing it. Lastly, i understand where you're husband is coming from, but he also should look at this as nipping something in the bud. Some big grand apology is not going to make this go away. And this family sounds capable of going after other people in the church once your situation doesn't feed the mother's need for drama. I would certainly be curious about why they were kicked out of the other church! Seems like that should put your church/the pastor/your husband in the power position?
How about, "I'm sorry for the way I expressed my disappointment in your behavior a few days ago. My daughter has been veru hurt by the things being said behind her back, and it's made worse with the knowledge that adults who she trusted and thought a great deal of are behind it. I have and will continue to have a problem with any adult who does that to a child. Honestly, i would respond the same were anyone saying similar things about *your* child. That kind of gossip is baseless, vicious and unnecessary, worse when coming from someone in her own church. We have to model better behavior for our children going forward."
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. I feel a lot better after having read through them. I really like your suggestion too Moglow, because it doesn't shine a spotlight on my anger, instead it says, "I am sorry for how I expressed my disappointment in your behavior." and goes on to say things that I totally agree with.
I think I might just text something along these lines, because the thought of seeing their faces or hearing their voices is still really triggering. Just typing that sentence made my heart race, at the thought of interacting with them. I just want this put behind my back. I don't really care if they use my text against me. I yelled at them. Big deal. They are grown. They slandered a young teenage girl multiple times, under the guise of "warning" people to "be careful" letting their kids be friends with her. Even now I am not treating them the way they treated my child. I want to go "warn" the whole church about how dangerous they are, but that is not how healthy people act. So I would never do that. LOL.
I don't think you have anything to apologize for - at any rate, raising your voice in a moment of very justified anger is a pretty minor infraction compared to persistently slandering a minor. Also, you did it to their face, while they're hypocrites. My advice is to make an apology conditional on them publicly retracting what they've said about your DD and apologizing for it. They won't do it, of course, and then you don't apologize. In the circumstances, an unconditional apology is grovelling I feel. At any rate, my advice is to not meet them - you've already met and it just made things worse, and you don't know if they'll gang up on you, record you, etc.
Has the pastor done anything about the smear campaign? Is he also asking them to apologize? I'm assuming you've shown him the proof that they're lying - if not, maybe he's just jumping to conclusions, but if you have, then he's plainly throwing you and your DD under the bus. Could you and your DD drop this community - going to another church, etc?
You have ZERO need to apologize. If you do or if you don't, it will be used against you. These are people who are focused on twisting facts and making up lies about a young girl, why on earth would they ever suddenly see the light and behave properly towards you and your husband? Cut all ties with these people, they will find new victims. Take care of your daughter, what a nasty thing to do to a young person!