I was thinking, I've never considered my mother a full on hoarder because she doesn't have boxes up to the ceiling or a tiny trail around the house... but she's always had access to a basement, attic, shed or storage space.
Over Thanksgiving I visited my mother and her boyfriend in their new house. It has a large basement and it is PACKED with her stuff. I made a semi joking comment about how if she doesn't want any of her (literally hundreds of) vintage old crates, I'd take some. She acted horrified and said that she would NEVER give any away. They're stacked in rows in a corner of the basement and before that? They were stacked in a corner of her storage unit and she hadn't looked at them in 5 years.
She has rolls and rolls of fabric that she's "going to use!" to reupholster this or sew that. She's been dragging these around since I was a child!
There are boxes and boxes of magazines that are "nostalgic!" or "worth a lot of money!" But haven't seen the light of day in over 30 years.
This is just scratching the surface- there's so much more. A 2000 square foot basement full!
It got me wondering... is hoarding a PD trait? Whenever we talk about her "stuff" a lot of really prominent PD-like reactions come out
Parent (father)-in-law, not parent, but yes, he had a tendency to hoard. He was tidy enough, but he didn't like to get rid of things. He also had a PD, I think. (He died about six weeks ago, thus my use of the past tense.)
Yes BPDm does have this not-quite-hoarding thing. I think it has to do with her lack of sense of self. She only sees herself reflected in her possessions (including why she adopted me despite not wanting to actually raise a child). Any change or loss of her possessions terrifies her. I think she must feel like if her possessions disappear she will too. It's pretty sad.
Yes! My mom has a very clean house but she also has tons of extra stuff she doesn't use or need. Teaching books from the 70's, all of her crafting stuff through the years, random boxes with nothing in them that takes up space. It's funny you mentioned this, I never really thought about her tendency to hoard things bc she's is so tidy.
My parents (uNPDM and uPdf) do this too! They keep the part of the house that other people can see clean but any other part is piled full of junk. The attic basement and my old room is the worst. Those rooms are not far from needing a TLC tv crew to come in but the rest of the house is super clean and well decorated. The difference between what other people can see and what other people can't see illustrates their behavior pretty well.
Yeah, mine also hoard - Newspapers, clothes, Xmas wrapping paper, photos, old schoolwork (we all left school decades ago), funeral notices, books, bills, clearing sale junk. And.....rubbish bags....full of rubbish. The bedrooms are filled to the ceiling with this crap, along with copious layers of dust and mould spores.
And yes, it’s *definitely* a PD trait. It used to be in the previous DSM as one of the diagnostic criteria under OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder - which is different to straight up OCD), and while it’s still one of the OCPD criteria, there is now a Hoarding Disorder category of its own in the latest DSM-5.
It’s extremely hard to treat, and the sufferers are generally in denial about the extent of the problem. They are also loathe to let anything go, ever.
And good luck broaching the subject with them. When I brought up the obvious health and safety aspects of living in a dangerous, stinky hoarded house, one of my elderly deteriorating and increasingly immobile parents threatened never to speak to me again if I spoke to their doctor about it, and then also blamed me for ‘causing all that trouble’ by mentioning it at all, to which I replied: ‘Yes, obviously it IS all my fault that you have lived in a filthy unsafe firetrap shithole for night on five decades.’ For fuck’s sake.
In the end I just walked away and gave up, for my own sanity.
I should add, lest the above sounds harsh, I'd been tearing my hair out for years trying to get them to see reason. So in the end, I had to feel I'd tried everything. And yeah, nothing worked.
Also, jellyfish, I can completely relate to your comment:
'The difference between what other people can see and what other people can't see illustrates their behavior pretty well.'
Story of my parents' lives across the board, really....sigh....
Yes, my N parents both hoard but especially my mother. She has stuff everywhere and years ago when my nephews were little and coming to visit, I said, "Mum are you going to move this stuff away because the boys are coming and it's dangerous for little ones?" She sneered and said, "Why should I?" I thought to myself, how horrid and I made a mental note never to let her near any of my future children.
yes& typical rage when you mention decluttering.
Narc mums is tidy/clean enough but organised chaos if you get me? House is not big enough for the amount of shit she buys, excessive amounts of toys/clothes- boxes in the way you can easily trip on...random shit in the kitchen/front room that just makes the place look like its one big storage den
It drives me wild being there, you're just getting on top of eachother & it just reminds me how much the organisation of a space can ruin the atmosphere- that place is the perfect recipe to get in eachothers way & for arguments to occur...but its typical whenever she moves house its always rushed & not big enough
Quote from: Fiasco on December 01, 2019, 04:43:42 PM
Yes BPDm does have this not-quite-hoarding thing. I think it has to do with her lack of sense of self. She only sees herself reflected in her possessions (including why she adopted me despite not wanting to actually raise a child). Any change or loss of her possessions terrifies her. I think she must feel like if her possessions disappear she will too. It's pretty sad.
Oh my, you have got it right there. This is my MIL. Not a full on hoarder but so much STUFF, her house is so full you can hardly move in it (a good excuse not to take our small children to visit, it's just not kid-friendly at all). One of her annoying traits is the need to give us stuff too, and if she wants to get rid of something she assumes we will want it. I detest clutter, it drives me mad. Very interesting what you say about her adopting you despite not wanting a child. My MIL got pregnant with my DH to a man who was with someone else and already had a child. I think she just wanted someone to own, someone to be 'hers'. She didn't actually want a child, and has told him (and me) many times in a variety of ways that he was an accident, and that one reason she didn't get rid of him was because she had already got rid of one baby in the past and couldn't face it again. Therefore he should be eternally grateful to her that he exists at all.
Yep, my PD parent never gets rid of anything. They have a ton of space in which to keep things, so they're never really forced to face it/deal with it.
It's also combined with a kind of stinginess - I remember when I was looking to move out and could have used the 20+ year old sofa in the attic, I couldn't take it because they would need it for a rec room (which didn't exist). Upon saying I could return it if they came to need it, some comment was made about how I would jump on the sofa and wreck it (??) Sure enough, many years later, it's never been used.
Absolutely. Never quite tv show level, but decades of keeping 'stuff', passing Stuff' onto me and getting angry if I didn't want it etc
Quote from: Rize on December 04, 2019, 06:24:52 PM
Absolutely. Never quite tv show level, but decades of keeping 'stuff', passing Stuff' onto me and getting angry if I didn't want it etc
That's my MiL exactly. The house looks relatively tidy, but it's full of things that needn't be kept, like baskets full of empty toiletry boxes that once looked pretty and well out-of-date calendars hanging on the walls. She went so far as to leave a whiteboard unerased for at least 10 years with her adult child's childhood writing on it. Then there are a few things she buys to excess, such as throw pillows, throw blankets, and various air fresheners.
Other than the family fights when we turn down "gifts," it doesn't affect us too much, so I try to ignore it. As someone who likes an uncluttered home, it's hard for me to get my head around why someone would live this way, though.
HeadAboveWater- laughing at the whiteboard. Wtf?
My narc M kept my brothers TWO prams up until he was 8 - and they ended up in my room which had been turned into a storage room whilst I was in college. When I mentioned it was ridic she hadn't sold them yet she flew into narc rage- she had NO reason to be keeping them. Ofc GC sis didn't get the same treatment
They are hilarious, my god some people should NOT have kids.
Been posting in the Dealing with PD In laws, that's my main concern, BUT after doing a lot of reflecting, I'm seeing having a OCD Mom has been a huge impact on me. Grandmother hoarder, Mom hoarder, it messes with you, a LOT. I'm the middle child, M said things like your B did this, your little S did that growing up, I don't remember you. Plus the OCD hoarding. Could this be affecting how I deal this other PDs, my ILS? how the heck do I sort that out?
Oh god yes. Multiple N-family members hoard, but not quite the level of the shows. The one that is almost to that level is my "landmate." We don't live in the same house, but on the same property, and we have been peripheral friends for a long time, before the hoarding. He had a head injury, and both parents passed on in rapid succession, so I give him some leeway there. I believe he is N, but at least not the mean kind.
But yes, the mere mention or re-organizing piles of broken, unusable things, or removing extra chopped up wood, sends him clearly into stress and explanations. Everything is either worth a lot of money, or can be repaired and used, or is about to be used for something, or a buddy is going to come and...
Oddly, my Nm went from hoarder to OCD clean after leaving my D and getting with someone Type-A. She is very closely connected to things, her things, HER things, and wanting everyone else's things. I'm sure it's a control thing.
Ngm had hoarded a lot more the closer to needing assisted living. My mom just went in and cleaned it out despite Ngm's reactions, yelling kicking and screaming. Literally falling on the floor tantrum. This part DOES remind me of the shows. It was a bad scene, according to Nm when she was self-righteously telling the story.
NSM & EnD have a two story house, basement, attic over the three car garage, an extra shed and a storage unit FULL of ONLY HER stuff. My D is not a hoarder but he's always gone along with her way. Major shopaholic. Buys one thing, buys the whole lot. There are areas of the house clean enough and livable.
I would definitely say the behaviors are N-related. IMHO
Once uPDm was actually complaining to me about the cluttered condition of her house and having so much to clean. I looked at her and said how she must enjoy the stuff since she has it and buys more so it must be how she wants to live. She looked at me like I had two heads and said no she doesn't like living this way - but I'm the one with two heads? :stars:
That's funny, Spring. I was just saying how I got that response as well when my Nm is constantly saying how fat they were(even thought they were probably 5 lbs overweight), but the reaction and look on their face when I merely asked "what measures are you taking to lose weight? Exercise? Eating healthy?" was just like that- a horrified and how-dare-you look.
It's funny how they have "no control" over themselves, but they MUST be in control over others.
I'm not sure if my Nmother was a hoarder or not. She did collect things in large quantities, mostly dolls and teddy bears. She also sewed and had containers of fabric everywhere. I guess I never looked at it as hoarding because she organized things at almost an OCD level. She had stacks of plastic containers, all carefully labeled. Her house was immaculate.
That was what was in her house, though. She also maintained a unit at a self-storage place and I have no idea why or what was in it. At one point she sent me some childhood items with a note saying the storage place had suffered water damage so she was cleaning out some of the moldy items. It looks like all the old junk she was keeping was at this self-storage facility, which allowed her to maintain a perfectly neat and organized house.
My GC sister is a major hoarder. She also collects dolls, thousands of them. She has so many that she sleeps in the guest room because the master bedroom is filled with her doll collection. :stars:
JustKathy, that is interesting...the super clean/storage unit thing..
My Ngm collected a few different things. There were shelves full of these things in every room. Then the garage was full of every egg carton she ever used, and the kitchen full of long expired food. She would try to feed us with it..she was also the most amazing cook you ever knew. Strange.
Once there was a cool piece of driftwood sitting in the same spot it always was, in a pile of junk in the back room. I was in a phase of creating stuff with that sort of thing and ask if I could use it for a project. She cringed her face in disgust and said Noooooo, that's Miiiiiiinnnee.... :o Ooooook?
QuoteShe is very closely connected to things, her things, HER things, and wanting everyone else's things. I'm sure it's a control thing.
My nMother was also extremely possessive of HER things, not wanting anyone else near them. When she got her cancer diagnosis my GCsister emailed me to say she was going to help sell off NM's doll and bear collection in order to keep it out of my father's hands, since he would likely donate the items to needy children. She wanted complete control over where those dolls went, specifically to adult collectors. Impoverished people were beneath her and they'd be getting her stuff over her dead body. Pun intentional. ;D
My NM wanted everyone else's things too. She stole several items from me when I was a kid; things that were given to me as Christmas and birthday presents. If she liked it she just took it. I still grieve over the loss of one beloved item (a hand-carved seal) my grandmother gave me as a child. NM kept it on display in her room. I should have just stolen it back but ended up going NC before I had the chance. She would raid all of our Christmas gifts, take what she liked, and after that it was HERS.
JustKathy,
That is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry that happened. I've had a little of that too from mine, but not to that extreme. Displaying your beloved seal. What an absolute demonic person. Seriously.
They just can't think of how anyone else would feel. At all. It's proven over and over, and yet we still struggle because we are looking for any sign of humanity there that we must have missed.
It's also sad she would be so resentful of the poor, but I'm wondering, would any modern day children really want an old dusty collector's doll anyway? (I'm just picturing someone I know's hoarded doll collection. No thanks!) That would be someone thing like my Ngm would give us for christmas, and we'd have to act like we liked it. I know this is off topic, but one year when I was about 14, I got an ashtray for christmas from my gm. I think I looked kind of confused, but she said "it's special because the amish made it".. I smiled and acted gracious on cue, but WTF? I wasn't a smoker. I digress.
My mother was a bit of a collector. It took me a long time to realise that she was really over the top with the spending. I was very blind to it. I actually gave some of the things away that she'd collected, instead of selling them. How dumb.
Quote from: No. on December 11, 2019, 10:43:25 AM
JustKathy,
That is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry that happened. I've had a little of that too from mine, but not to that extreme. Displaying your beloved seal. What an absolute demonic person. Seriously.
Thank you, No. Most people would think I'm crazy to grieve so much over a childhood toy, but most people don't understand what people like us have been through. After my Nmother died my GCsister emailed me several times, mostly fishing trips to get my address and other info out of me. I asked her to return the seal, at which point she stopped replying to me. I'm pretty sure she has it now and is keeping it to spite me. She's become as rotten as NM was.
QuoteIt's also sad she would be so resentful of the poor, but I'm wondering, would any modern day children really want an old dusty collector's doll anyway?
Actually, my mother's doll collection consisted of some very expensive collector dolls, Madame Alexander and American Girl (I don't know much about dolls but apparently those are valuable). I'm pretty sure the whole thing about my father donating them to needy kids was a made up lie to turn me against him, and of course, throw in a little bigotry for good measure. He was so committed to her I seriously doubt he would have donated them or given away anything that belonged to her. The maddening thing is that Nmother never worked a day in her life and those dolls were paid for with enDad's money. They ended up with GC sister who has been slowly selling them on eBay. She's making a killing on them but she can have them. I'd be totally creeped out by having any of Nmother's dolls in my house. They'd probably come after me like Chucky.
:aaauuugh:
For real! There must be some bad juju in those dolls.
Talking about your seal, that has brought up some memories of Nm completely disregarding and/or throwing away some of my favorite things. That is something that still bothers me-the lack or regard or respect. It really hurt me she would do that, but I immediately choked it down each time feeling not allowed a feeling about it, and definitely not a say. If I brought it up she ripped me to shreds for something so "stupid." She was/is vile.
One was a christmas ornament. it was my favorite from a young age. My GM gave it to me when I was one and it was one and it was always a special moment for me to place it on the tree, at the bottom, as I did as a kid. Nm got rid of that ornament. I asked her where it was and she said she had cleaned out to make room for the new (since when?) even though all the other old ones were there. She tossed my art projects that won awards, and my Atari, which would be worth a lot now, but I would have liked to have HAD it. My entire CD collection was taken from her unlocked car and she scoffed when I asked her to ask insurance about it. Didn't care a wink. And she took all of my favorite clothes and suitcases that were college graduation gifts from my aunts and uncles to Cancun where it was all stolen. She gave me "part" of the insurance $ which was about $50. And so on...But, taking your gift and displaying it in her room is on another level. :stars:
Quote from: No. on December 11, 2019, 03:51:38 PM
She tossed my art projects that won awards, and my Atari, which would be worth a lot now, but I would have liked to have HAD it.
*waves in Atari*I miss mine.
QuoteOne was a christmas ornament. it was my favorite from a young age. My GM gave it to me when I was one and it was one and it was always a special moment for me to place it on the tree, at the bottom, as I did as a kid. Nm got rid of that ornament.
Wow, this is interesting. Both my seal and your ornament were gifts from our grandmothers. I wonder if that was the real reason for those items being taken from us. My Nmother HATED her own mother, especially since my GM was wise to her abuse and looked out for me. I can't help but think if these items had been given to us by someone of little importance to her (like a school friend) that she wouldn't have taken them.
My NM also stole other items given to me by my GM. When she cleaned out her storage locker she sent me a box of old childhood photos that were all faded and moldy. There were a few other items in there, like Girl Scout merit badges and pins. At the bottom of the box was a locket that was engraved to me from my grandmother when I was just a toddler. I had never seen it before. NM must have taken it and thrown it in that box, forgetting it was there. I was around 50 at the time and was seeing this locket for the first time. My grandmother had already passed away so I couldn't tell her about it. I wonder if she was ever hurt by not seeing me wear it. She would have had no idea that I never received it. I also wonder how many things NM stole from me that I'll never know about.
That's a good point, Jk. I always thought it was because it was of special importance to me, but given it was from GM, she probably really loathed that ornament.
I know right toby? She didn't even ASK if I wanted my own atari before throwing it out. She always thought games, and instruments, and books were "stupid." :blink:
I'm honestly sorry for you that she did that. I suppose I was lucky that my parents knew I valued entertainment like that. It got me through difficult times especially when I was a teenager.
I suspect ocpd with my Df. Not a hoarder in the sense of boxes etc but that he had to have at least 6 bags of sugar, tea bags and so on. He would become cross if someone went shopping and didn't get sugar. I saw he had 5 bags already so didn't get the sugar. He was angry.
Another thing we've noticed is his need to keep things in boxes. Even when they're used regularly. He still keeps his lawnmower in the original box that's falling apart. But you know you can't bin it because he would literally lose his mind and make you feel like a lunatic for binning it.
My mom is very OCPD, undiagnosed officially but my therapist & I have discussed at great length. It's funny, she referred to what my mom does as "bougie hoarding," in that she uses possessions as a status symbol. She's not a hoarder in the traditional sense, she's far too obsessed about order, cleanliness and the image of perfection. She'd always have fancy home decor, and even if a thing wasn't actually worth anything at all, if it was broken or damaged in any way, watch out... I grew up in fear of having friends over because if they messed anything up I'd get yelled at. She has always been SO protective of her material possessions. "Do you know how much I spent on that?!" "You have no idea what this will be worth someday" "You won't make enough money in your lifetime to replace this!" "This is what I get for trying to make this place look nice"
I never knew her collection of santa figurines that stayed out all year was weird...until in high school, pretty much any friend I had over told me they creeped them out LOL. For OCPD apparently the hoarding can come through as collections. Interestingly enough, my mom's sister is what you'd typically think of as a hoarder - more evidence for me that the PD behaviors probably came from my grandparents and beyond..
Oh! And the kitchen gadgets!!! So many items that do ONE specific thing! Again, I was an adult before I realized there are simple ways to do things, that don't require a specialty gadget :roll: