Out of the FOG

Coping with Personality Disorders => Chosen Relationships => Topic started by: eclecticmom on February 01, 2020, 10:25:22 PM

Title: If it was abuse...
Post by: eclecticmom on February 01, 2020, 10:25:22 PM
Why can't any counselor tell me that?  when I read about verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse, it's so familiar.  Not in the most extreme forms, but it's how my husband has treated me.  When I talk to friends who were abused in the past, they say my story sounds just like what they went through.  But the counselors I've talked to don't identify any of it as abuse.  They don't say, "yeah that's abusive" or "no, that's a normal part of marital friction."  I'm not laying the entire story out there, though, but neither did I with my friends.  I've been second guessing myself for years (about many things, not just my spouse), and this isn't helping.  I'm not sure why I want to hear it from a counselor specifically, though.  Thoughts?  Advice?
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: StayWithMe on February 01, 2020, 10:40:13 PM
What do your therapists say exactly.  ie "That could be abuse?"  or "If you are repeating that to me correctly, then that sounds like......."

When literature on abuse, it reads pretty definitively.  I was surprised to read the page on abuse in Wikipedia which said that parents treating children's belongings in a disprectful manner ( I para phrase here) is also a form of abuse.  Never thought about it that way.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: BeautifulCrazy on February 01, 2020, 10:51:55 PM
Have you read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans?
I think it is the most decisive and clearest thing I have read so far that identifies (non-physical) partner abuse and calls it what it is. Never thought to check Wikipedia!!!
I understand self-doubt and your need for more professional validation than just your own feelings or your friends' similar experience...  but I think you can fully trust your heart, your intuition and people who have your best interests in mind. If you suspect you are being abused, you probably are.

This may be a completely different thing but I had similar frustrations with children's therapists and social workers several years back... none of them were willing to specifically identify the things my children saw or experienced at the hands of my ex husband as "abuse" or "abusive behaviour" because they didn't want to be wrong or appear to be biased if their notes or observations were included during any family court litigation. It Was Super Frustrating!!!
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: 11JB68 on February 01, 2020, 11:03:20 PM
I wonder if maybe the idea/therapist's thought is that if you experienced it as abuse then it was abuse.  Maybe they don't feel that they can/should define that for you.
I think some things are harder to define, since it may affect people differently.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Poison Ivy on February 01, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
What would you do differently if a therapist or other health-care professional called what your husband does "abuse"?  If you'd do something that you're not doing now, can you give yourself permission to do that thing based on your own opinion?
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Whiteheron on February 02, 2020, 09:32:52 AM
I ran into the same thing. I was so angry that no one would call stbx's abuse out for what it was. At the time, I needed the validation. My T didn't label is as abuse (even though she hinted at it), stbx's T (in joint therapy) never called him out on his abuse.

The only one who labeled stbx's behaviors as abuse was our primary doc - I had called to express my concerns at stbx's deteriorating mental state and I had given some examples. He said "that sounds like extreme emotional abuse." I cried. He, and the kids' pediatrician were the only people to appear alarmed at stbx's behaviors.

Sometimes it helps to hear it from someone else, esp a professional, so you feel like you're not going crazy.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: eclecticmom on February 02, 2020, 04:00:34 PM
Quote from: 11JB68 on February 01, 2020, 11:03:20 PM
I wonder if maybe the idea/therapist's thought is that if you experienced it as abuse then it was abuse.  Maybe they don't feel that they can/should define that for you.
I think some things are harder to define, since it may affect people differently.
I can't function within that framework, though.  To me this translates into, "stop experiencing it as abuse and there is no problem."  At some point, it has to be objectively abusive (or not).  If it's just a matter of perception, then all I'm "supposed" to do is change my perception.

Quote from: StayWithMe on February 01, 2020, 10:40:13 PM
What do your therapists say exactly.  ie "That could be abuse?"  or "If you are repeating that to me correctly, then that sounds like......."
Nothing like that, no.  At first, she would cut me off when I tried to list the things he said/did, and shift the focus back to me.  Eventually I mostly quit trying to lay it all out there to sort through.  But she did say I had some symptoms of someone who's being abused, and she acknowledged once that some response of his or another as "that's that control."  After something like 9 or 10 months, I finally said I thought it was emotional and verbal abuse, and she simply nodded.  But that could have been an, "I hear you saying that" nod and not a "yeah, you're right" nod.  idk.  I didn't/don't have the guts to ask.  Still working on assertiveness.  And I think that was more her goal than anything else--helping me work out of codependency.  Plus, she's a family systems therapist: make one healthy; make the others healthy.

Quote from: BeautifulCrazy on February 01, 2020, 10:51:55 PM
Have you read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans?
Yes, that's what really opened my eyes, because before that, I wasn't thinking abuse, I just was miserable and had no idea what was going on or why or what to do with it.  She loses me with the patriarchy stuff, though.  And I need a range of concrete examples...I interrupt my kids...is that blocking and diverting?  I mean it's rude, but is every time someone interrupts an example of verbal abuse?  How do I know when to leave?  How do I know if it'll turn physical?  I ended up with questions like that, and that book was what made me want a therapist to sort through it all.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 01, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
What would you do differently if a therapist or other health-care professional called what your husband does "abuse"?  If you'd do something that you're not doing now, can you give yourself permission to do that thing based on your own opinion?
It's not do...it's feeling assured I'm not having a knee-jerk reaction in leaving.  It's understanding the spectrum of these things, knowing whether I'm guilty myself, how to recognize it in others (because what if I just fall into the same pattern with someone else?).  It wasn't about giving myself permission, it was self-preservation.  I got to the point where I knew if I stayed, even "for the kids," I wouldn't survive myself.  But what I don't know is if I'm just really picky, sensitive, and weak, or if there was really an unhealthy/abusive situation.  It would help me answer the "What if it's me?" question.

Quote from: Whiteheron on February 02, 2020, 09:32:52 AM
I ran into the same thing. I was so angry that no one would call stbx's abuse out for what it was. At the time, I needed the validation. My T didn't label is as abuse (even though she hinted at it), stbx's T (in joint therapy) never called him out on his abuse.

The only one who labeled stbx's behaviors as abuse was our primary doc - I had called to express my concerns at stbx's deteriorating mental state and I had given some examples. He said "that sounds like extreme emotional abuse." I cried. He, and the kids' pediatrician were the only people to appear alarmed at stbx's behaviors.

Sometimes it helps to hear it from someone else, esp a professional, so you feel like you're not going crazy.
This.  Except I'm sure my examples aren't extreme.  I've read some terrible stories and think, "it's not that bad."  So if it's not that bad, shouldn't I stay?  Maybe I should talk to our doctors instead of therapists...
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Poison Ivy on February 02, 2020, 04:18:24 PM
I don't know anyone who would call my ex-husband's behavior abusive, and I know that I didn't always behave perfectly.  But I ended the marriage even though I'm not perfect and he's not an abuser.  I accept the fact that some of it was me.  All the things that made the marriage bad to me -- my husband's long periods of unemployment, his financial fraud, his lying, his not talking to me for long periods, his preference of his parents over me -- were all survivable in some sense.  I occasionally got upset:  that was me.  I didn't always work full time:  that was me.  Me not being everything he wanted in a wife:  that definitely was me.  But it was still okay that I got a divorce. 
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: GettingOOTF on February 02, 2020, 06:24:08 PM
I don't think my therapist as ever called what my ex did "abuse" even though it clearly was. We focus on me and how I can navigate things. I wonder if therapists are taught no to use this label.

If you need validation from your therapist tell them everything you have said here. Therapy is only effective when there is open and honest communication around expectations and needs. A few months ago I had felt for some time that my therapist was dismissive of some of my concerns. I eventually raised it, we discussed how I was experiencing the things she said and now she takes a different approach.

Many woman do not want to hear that what they are experiencing is abuse. You see this every single day here on these boards. Women are desperate for any explanation that will allow them to cling to the hope things will change so most don't react well to the "abuse" label. This may be why your therapist hasn't said anything. They may feel that you are not ready to hear and accept this.

There's no point telling someone their partner is abusive if they aren't going to hear it. It's best so focus on helping them with the things they are ready to acknowledge.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: NumbLotus on February 02, 2020, 06:30:06 PM
It's not just women who can have a hard time hearing it.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: eclecticmom on February 02, 2020, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: NumbLotus on February 02, 2020, 06:30:06 PM
It's not just women who can have a hard time hearing it.
You're right.  It's hard to hear, or realize, no matter what.  I guess part of me is still trying to find some other explanation, some concrete confirmation or denial.  My counselor has said the relationship is unhealthy, and reading the Toolbox, she has be encouraging me to do many of the things on that list, but never came out and said things were/weren't skewing toward abuse, and this is how we're combating it, etc.  She just said we needed to get me healthy.  Which is true (I had a nervous breakdown).  But...idk.  I like spectrums, concrete examples, some way to filter everything.  Otherwise, how is not just in my head?

I'll try to be candid with her; we'll see.  I don't have hard feelings; she's been good, but not having it confirmed or denied is itself messing with my head.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: GettingOOTF on February 02, 2020, 09:09:46 PM
I have discovered over the last few years that most people do what they think is best and have good motives.

I was so used to not being heard and being punished in one way another for speaking my mind or making my needs known.  It's taken me a long time to learn how to speak up for myself and to not assign motives to others. The discussion with my therapist is a good example of this. I was ready to quit therapy and had become increasingly upset that she didn't seem to listen to what I said. When I raised this she was surprised. Now we have a different way of communicating which works much better for me.  I had to get comfortable with telling people what I need. Those of us who grew up with abuse or married abusive partners are masters at pushing down our own needs.

There's a very good chance that if you tell your therapist what you've said here that she will be able to give you the validation. There is a chance that she's a bad therapist but really I think that most people, including professionals, have no idea what our lives are like and how to properly support us.

I hope you are able to work things out.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Poison Ivy on February 02, 2020, 09:45:03 PM
It's possible that the therapist thinks that one of the goals with therapy with you is for you to second-guess yourself less and trust yourself more.  What you see as "tell me I'm right, what my husband is doing is abuse," the therapist might see as "she won't believe it unless I say it and that seems like more second-guessing and less self-trust."
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: StayWithMe on February 02, 2020, 11:09:18 PM
Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 02, 2020, 09:45:03 PM
It's possible that the therapist thinks that one of the goals with therapy with you is for you to second-guess yourself less and trust yourself more.  What you see as "tell me I'm right, what my husband is doing is abuse," the therapist might see as "she won't believe it unless I say it and that seems like more second-guessing and less self-trust."

Oh, dear.   :stars:
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: eclecticmom on February 03, 2020, 12:25:28 AM
Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 02, 2020, 09:45:03 PM
It's possible that the therapist thinks that one of the goals with therapy with you is for you to second-guess yourself less and trust yourself more.  What you see as "tell me I'm right, what my husband is doing is abuse," the therapist might see as "she won't believe it unless I say it and that seems like more second-guessing and less self-trust."
That's occurred to me.  It's possible.  That's not really what I want from a therapist, though.  But I'll also admit when I first started going, I couldn't articulate much of anything.  And I have some sort of anxiety that makes me want to put on a mask and pretend I'm fine, even when I'm supposed be vulnerable and it's a safe environment.  Most of the time, with most people, I can only "open up" after things are totally processed and I'm essentially sharing facts.  Not helpful if you don't know what to process or how.  I'll try to be frank when I see her next.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Poison Ivy on February 03, 2020, 08:18:35 AM
I think it's very common for people to put on their best face for the therapist.  Common and normal.  It can be very hard to talk about the not so good things.  Makes one feel so vulnerable!  And it's also common to discover that a therapist isn't the right fit.  Good luck with the process. 
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: StayWithMe on February 03, 2020, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 03, 2020, 08:18:35 AM
I think it's very common for people to put on their best face for the therapist.  Common and normal.  It can be very hard to talk about the not so good things.  Makes one feel so vulnerable!  And it's also common to discover that a therapist isn't the right fit.  Good luck with the process.

Not to mention, that based on one's negative emotions, that must make the patient a very hateful person.  I have not understood why the therapist does not see him / herself as an advocate of the patient / client, in simple terms, by the one who is paying them.

Imagine a lawyer who didn't fight tooth and nail to get a better deal for their client.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: LemonLime on February 04, 2020, 12:20:38 PM
Eclecticmom, I have had a similar experience with my therapist.   I left one therapist because even though she specializes in DBT, she managed to hear my entire story about my sibling (as well as read all of my sib's and my email exchanges) and still didn't identify that my sis has some kind of PD or dysfunction.  I realize she can't diagnose my sibling, but as a specialist in BPD, I was expecting her to validate me by at least entertaining the idea that my sister's communication with me was dysfunctional/abusive/not normal.   Instead, she counseled me as if I had had some kind of disagreement with a nonPD friend.    Even suggested I have a private talk with my sibling....WHAT??  So that she can lie later about what I said?  That is crazy.

Next therapist was able to identify that sib's behavior was definitely not healthy or normal, and gave me lots of empathy. But didn't seem to know how to counsel me on boundaries or do any deep work with me.

Current one is overall good, and eventually was able to 'get it'.    I showed her all the email exchanges.   She seemed to be ready to treat the problem as a simple communication issue. I was ready to fire her. But then she said "It's hard to be gaslighted".    Well, she had me at "gaslighted"!    She has never used the word "abuse" but she is basically acknowledging it in a roundabout way.    I do wonder if they are taught not to use the word, or to use it sparingly.   Maybe they don't want clients to feel like victims?......

I told her that I tend to present myself to therapists as a very smart, well-mannered, in-control and agreeable person.    I told her that at the first visit, and I told her to call me on it.   I let her know that I am a people-pleaser, and that I want her to like me.   I will tend to agree with what she says even when I really don't agree.   And I asked her to call me on that too, because that behavior will not help me grow.  And it's the people-pleasing that I'm trying to stop.

I also told her that I don't always feel heard by her, and that I need to vent and get empathy more often.   She apologized and we worked on ways our interaction could go better.

She's not perfect and neither am I, but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater.   Instead, I will be more assertive and brave with her, and give her feedback.  It's what I'm trying to do with all my relationships, so therapy is a safe way to do that, if you can find a therapist who is self-confident enough to be able to hear it.  If they aren't, you might be better off finding a new one.

I guess what I'm saying is that I've had to train my therapists.  If they're not trainable, I leave.   And I really do understand your desire for them to label some of your PD's behaviors as abusive.   Because we have learned from the PD to second-guess ourselves so much.  And of course the PD will sometimes DARVO and accuse US of being abusive.    :stars:

:bighug:


Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: NumbLotus on February 04, 2020, 01:40:03 PM
I wonder, and I'm just blue skying here, if therapists are reluctant to label abuse for fear they have misidentified the abuser and don't want to embolden an abuser unwittingly. I don't mean that they are accusing any of us of being abusers but just overall being cautious.

Imagine a covert NPD getting therapy nkt to work on themselves but to get feed via pity. The stories they tell will sound like they are getting abused. If the therapist says, wow, that is abusive, that could be destructive and increase the abuse the cNPD heaps on his/her relations.

Anyway, just a thought, I have no idea. I do wish society didn't enable abuse so much, but we do, on many levels (including systemic racism and so on).
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: StayWithMe on February 04, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
yes, but an NPD can also just read it somewhere.  Only recently, have I learned that it is abuse when parents destroy their children's property or that the silent treatment is abusive.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: GettingOOTF on February 04, 2020, 02:41:31 PM
Quote from: StayWithMe on February 04, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
yes, but an NPD can also just read it somewhere.  Only recently, have I learned that it is abuse when parents destroy their children's property or that the silent treatment is abusive.

These two are new for me too. My parents had no boundaries with us kids. Nothing was ever ours. It was my parents. And they punished by destroying toys or special things kids collect. I see now how awful that was.

It's funny because I work with someone who I suspect is NPD. He bought some air pods for his son who is in college so not a child. He used them on a trip to the beach before he gave them to his son. He considers them his property. Another colleague who I admire a lot was saying his kids (12-16) had them but he wasn't interested. I was telling him why he'd love them. He said he was curious to try them.  I was so shocked that he hasn't just taken a pair from one of his kids. There was just no concept of things belonging to us as kids.

My abusive BPDxH used to destroy my things. He'd claim it was an accident, but I read something in Why Does He Do That? that was almost exactly like my situation and I saw for the first time how my ex deliberately destroyed things I cherished.

I have come to see abuse as anything someone does to control someone else using fear.

The silent treatment is the worst. It really makes you doubt yourself and forces you to dance to get the attention of the person doing it. So humiliating to look back on. 
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: StayWithMe on February 04, 2020, 10:36:48 PM
Wikipedia has some information on child abuse:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse

It's where, I am sure, I found the bit about destroying children's property.  WP does get written over and that was a few years ago.  But I did see something that applies to me:
QuoteIn 1995, APSAC defined it as: spurning, terrorizing, isolating, exploiting, corrupting, denying emotional responsiveness, or neglect" or "A repeated pattern of caregiver behavior or extreme incident(s) that convey to children that they are worthless, flawed, unloved, unwanted, endangered, or only of value in meeting another's needs"

Both of my parents would harp on me to help clean up where ever we went.  There were couple times when the hostess would "don't worry about it.  Just have a good time."  When I go back to my mother she would to go ask something else and on and on.  One time we were visiting my father's sister and her family in another city where they lived.  My aunt had dinner and about 20 people came along.  Never mind that my aunt has 2 daughters; both were there and one was living with the parents full time.  but somehow I and my younger got singled out to clean up.  I was very angry.  And I believe my mother made that offer to my aunt.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: Whatthehey on February 05, 2020, 01:08:51 AM
Interesting posts - In the past 10 years I have had three therapists.  The first was mostly a listener and I felt that all I was paying for was an hour of someone's time listening to me complain.  I was with her for a year.  It was my first experience.

The second therapist was supposed to be experienced in trauma.  I did like our two sessions and he did call after a month passed to see if I was Ok.  I believe he would have been a good fit if it wasn't for his heavy cologne and my allergies.

At this point I was troubled.  Was it really supposed to be this hard to find someone to work with.  And then my diagnosis of c-PTSD came down and I had to find someone or else have a life of seizures and aphasia.

So I tried again, and bam I found someone I clicked with.  She specializes in EMDR and when I asked about the first EMDR treatment she said that it would be several months.  She told me it needed complete trust and honesty between parties. I have been going there for two years almost weekly and it has taken a long time to develop the trust and honesty.  To really dig deep and hear and say what needs to be heard and said.

It was a year before she told I was experiencing emotional and financial abuse.  Funny enough the previous two had told me the same thing but I wasn't ready to hear it.  When she said it, it clicked.  I think if she had told me sooner, I would've left.

For me, the two years were needed to really develop the confidence in myself to say out loud what was happening in my life. And believe it.  That is after more than 32 years of marriage to my xOCPDh. 

My advice, if you don't feel a connection to your therapist, then keep looking.  When you do find someone you click with, only complete honesty will work.  And complete honesty takes a great deal of courage.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: eclecticmom on February 11, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
I talked with her recently because person contacted me with vague depressive expressions (nothing like, "I'm going to kill myself," but depressed/hopeless sounding).  She does care, and said some things that makes me think she gets it, but it's hard to tell.  idk.  I don't need what I'm saying to be gospel, but I do need it to be seriously considered by my counselor.  She's supportive of me finding a new one and wants to make sure they're good.  If I keep seeing her, it can't be very frequent.  And maybe that's not very productive?

I don't know how to take these despairing comments--implying being mentally "off," finding life pointless, etc.  On the one hand, I don't want to miss warning signs, but on the other, I can't really do much besides suggest counseling, spirituality, and what probably sound like platitudes.  And I can't be the support person.  It keeps me locked in place, doesn't help them get closure, and all the water is muddied.  There's a chance it's manipulative, too, and I don't want to reward that.  I feel callous saying that.

Is not wanting to ever see someone again a "discard"?  I read about that and immediately turn it on myself.  "You wouldn't be thinking of leaving if you weren't the narcissist about discard my innocent spouse," etc.  :(  I'm sorry if I'm drifting off topic; I can start a new thread...I didn't want to clutter up the board and I'm in one of those "spiral of self-doubt" slumps anyway.
Title: Re: If it was abuse...
Post by: ICantThinkOfAName on February 11, 2020, 03:08:03 PM
One of the lines in the sand that is easy to determine abuse, in my mind is to ask this question.  Is it their intention to make you feel bad?  And where does that intention come from?  Does it make them feel better?  Do they get secret pleasure out of it?  You can ask that of yourself as well.  I can honestly answer in times of emotional upheaval that yes I did want him to feel bad so that he would change.  This takes recognition on both sides to make it stop.  So I guess abuse can be on a spectrum as well, yes there are the petty backhanded comments that can be made all the way up to straight out name calling or just plain old making you doubt yourself.  When you "grow up" you realize that you really don't want to hurt anyone like that to serve your own purpose.  I think that at some point in everyone's life they have been what I would deem as abusive in one way or another, but the difference is that some of us grow out of it and some don't.  And some of us learn to master it to control others as well.