Out of the FOG

I thought it would be useful to have a thread to share experiences, successful or otherwise, raising kids who have fleas or maybe just personalities that naturally include certain traits. 

My kid doesn't have PD but she does have certain ways. She's 14 and in the last few years her empathy has basically evaporated. I know it might just be adolescence but she is more - whatever it is - than any of my friends alwhen I was that age.

We are in this coronavirus thing right now and sometimes I've asked for some very basic help in these times. Yesterday I asked her to help me with something that was difficult for me visually - I'm legally blind. It was something that would have taken her 90 seconds at most and not very difficult. I've been jumping around trying to help everybody these last few weeks and I ask for one thing and it's like I asked her to saw her arm off. She spent far, far more energy refusing and complaining than she would have spent cheerfully doing the task.

At some point it got worse than that, she outright said she didn't care if I needed help. This honestly hurt my feelings but I just told her to give me her phone and leave the room. She refused, then suddenly offered to do the favor - it was too late, I wasn't begotiating anymore. I had to take the phone out of her hands. She stormed off.

Then was angry at ME the rest of the day. Like a PD. Zero shame that she couldn't be bothered to help her blind mom out with something quick and easy, but angry eith ME. This sets me off because it feels like a PD trait.

I realized also that she leverages outbursts to get her own way. You don't want to ask her to do something she doesn't want to do, or it will set her off and then you'll have to pay. She'll make sure it costs you so much more to ask than to do it yourself.

I decided that I need to pay the price and PARENT. If not me, then who?

Everyone except me falls for it.

My mom finally saw what I see and backed me up when I said DD is going to do the dishes twice a week from now on. It is far far far easier to just do them than to make her, but parenting isn't about doing what's easiest. If I can't stand up to her, then who?

So I just made her do the dishes. She utterly refused, tried to enter into a circular argument (nope. I just kept saying "you're going to do them. Because I said so. You're gonna. Yes you are.").

Actually said no and turned to leave the room. I started for her. I'm still stronger than her, but not by a while lot, and I realky didn't want anything ohysical, but I could not just let her take us all emotionally hostage. Thankfully, rhe second I started moving, she physicalky capitulated. But the verbal battle was still on.

She pretended she had absolutely no clue. I played along and told her what to do. I had decided that I would win no matter what, and she would get tired before I did - whatever it took. She started slamming my mom's glasses and I told her she would NOT break them. She yelled that she didn't CARE and slammed them 10% more lightly. Enough to protest but not break. I let her have that victory.

Anyway, it was a total battle.

And I won.

But also lost. Because that COSTS. My mom told me afterward she was having palpitations in the next room. I don't feel like I've been hit by a train, which I do when things are bad with H... I feel like I've been hit by a motorcycle.

But if not me, her mother, than who?

Next round is dinner dishes.

And then again on Thursday.

That sounds exhausting. As if you did not have enough to worry about.

No kidding. Sheesh and bananas.

She spent time in her room for a while then recovered.

So I just now reminded her to do the dinner dishes. Lololol. "I already DID the dishes!!!"  Not the dinner dishes. "I'm not even getting PAID!!!" Boohoo, I never get paid.

My mom said (with DD out of the room) "do you think it's fair she has to do dishes on a night where there are THREE pans?"

I said, "I know, mom. YOUR mother would NEVER have asked you to wash three pans."

That shut her up. My mom did every dish from age seven. Her mother lost exactly zero nights of sleep over it.

It's casy seeing how people enable this crap. My mom. My husband. Everyone is all "oh, but she's only 14." So on her 18th birthday she'll magically be responsible and capable? Come on.

No, they'll excuse her. "She's only 18." "She's only 25."

And then at 32, they'll throw up their hands and wonder why she makes other people do her laundry.

FOLKS. I'M DONE WITH THAT.

For context, I'm hunkered down with my mom and DD at my mom's house. No H. If I ever had an opportunity to parent my way, this is it.

NL,
I did see a transformation with my DD14  (she's #4 kid) over the last 3 years, she has lost much of the sweetness and softness she once had.  She is very precocious academically, intellectually, and socially, & has developed a hard exterior and often projects an attitude of 'I don't need anyone but me'.   

As I read your post, I see similarities with my DD14 .  Although we get along well most of the time, I have noticed traits in her as well;  unwilling to admit fault 90% of the time, doesn't apologize, occasional lying, sometimes using manipulation to try and get her way, the most concerning is no show of remorse and lack of emotional regulation- she'll escalate very quickly over miniscule issues.   She does have some empathy, but she keeps it well hidden most of the time and remains unapologetic for her behavior.

Sometimes, without provocation, she resorts to purposefully hurting me or her sister (DD21) with very unkind and derogatory words.  It comes from an attitude of entitlement.  Me and DD21 (she lives at home) are both calm, soft-spoken, non-confrontational and peacemakers by nature, so DD14 behavior is not due to a home environment where this is the norm.  DD21 is more of a pushover than me and will retreat more than I do.  I can go toe-to-toe with DD14 but I don't like to, so I pick my battles.  So, I try to shrug it off to show her it has no effect on me, especially if it's something small, or she is tired or on her period.  This is what really pushes my hurt-button though: the worst occasions have been when I have set a limit and she's really mad and tells me "You are a control freak just like dad mom! I would rather go live with him, even though I hate both of you", que slamming bedroom door. ( Last time she slammed her bedroom door, I took it off the hinges for a month.  Hasn't happen again.  :bigwink: )  It honestly gets to me when she says this but I try not to let on.

My ex is very high on antisocial traits, two therapists I have used conclude he is end of spectrum PD, one T even saw H in therapy during divorce.  Children that grow up in an environment where a parent is modeling unaccountability, cruel words, and using anger to control others are bound to pick up these traits.  Although DD14 see's F for what he and has for many years, she learned from our home environment.  So, she uses this to hurt me though I don't think she really wants to live with him. 

I have a part in this too.  During my divorce, I let things slide with my 4 children that I wouldn't ordinarily.   Now that I have some distance, I have been addressing these issues.  So, my current mission is setting boundaries with DD14 .

I wonder if you might take a different approach with DD.  Instead of saying   "you're going to do them. Because I said so. You're gonna. Yes you are." , I would say,  " you have a choice DD14, you can choose to do as I have asked you (such as the dishes TO MY SATISFACTION, no half-ass job, or you can choose the consequence of not doing what I ask.  If you chose not to cooperate with me, then ___X___ will be the consequence, so it's up to you". 
At this point she would forfeit the right to complain about the consequences if by default  she is choosing the consequence for herself.

I just read your addendum post, to that I would say " you don't get paid for doing your part to contribute to the household chores, and neither do I". 

I believe in only paying kids for stuff above and beyond normal stuff ie. dishes, trash, laundry, bedroom. 


Stand strong, and stay in control of your emotions.  Hold the line, you are doing the right thing !  this isn't about the dishes, it's a life lesson.  The goal of parenting is that we raise capable adults.
Stay cool NL , parenting isn't for the faint of heart

Yes, your DD and mine seem to have a lot of similarities.

Mine has a lifelong history of anxiety and I believe that is what spawned this hard exterior she has now. She is also very entitled and actually describes herself as transactional. (Neither I nor pd-ish H are transactional, so that is weird. Also H is only entitled when emotional/defensive, not in everyday life).

DD is also unwilling to admit fault. Apologies don't happen. (H does apologize, to me and to her). The only manipulation I see in getting her way is throwing a fit when asked to do something she doesn't want. I'm not sure she tries to make things happen (buy her things or whatever), just refuses to do what she doesn't want to. No remorse.

Her emotional dysregulation is limited to just blowing up harder than you would expect over a thing, but it's not eggshells with her. If she's upset, there's a clear reason, usually anxiety is triggered but sometimes entitlement. She is not upset often - this is the first dustup we've had in weeks.

Thankfully, she reregulates very well - time alone in her room drawing or texting or whatever. But I find myself going along with what we all know so well - pretend like it never happened. I'm not going to get any apology from her.  Not sure if I should push that?

Sorry to hear yours lashes out with verbal attacks. Mine doesn't do that. That would hurt. My H does what I call "the parting shot" when we fight and it gets so bad I ask him to leave the room. He'll storm out but before he goes he will say one of the Worst Things you can imagine. I now plug my ears when he storms out, childish i know but PDs force crazy behavior. I choose to do that than have that stuff ring in my mind forever. But DD thankfully doesn't, other than typical teen crap ("you're ruining MY LIFE" which doesn't do much to me lol). Oh, she does say "there's something wrong with you" which is straight out of H's mouth.

Yeah, I prefer to avoid confrontation. But I will go toe to toe when needed. Like today.

And yeah, I'm equally responsible as H formy own parenting. I have let things slide. This is a great opportunity for me to parent while not feeling like I have to fly under the radar with H. I would not say that H feels very differently about parenting than me, our values are similar but his emotional regulation has fallen apart  But he was always softer on her than me in terms of making her do responsibilities.

So are you saying to avoid the curcular argument to just give her a consequence and then BAM? I gotta think about that. It makes sense but I WILL have to immediately give the consequence because she will NOT just shut up and do it. And then it will be WWIII. I was trying to just avoid JADEing. She was trying every argument and I was just saying "you're gonna do it" rather than answering her demands that I justify my request to her, which is a checkmate for her because she will never accept an explanation to be valid. (Standard move in PD ville). I guess I could take her phone away in 10 minute increments until she complies.

So, it was time for dinner dishes. WAY EASIER but still ridiculous lol. This time she complained but was in a good mood so was joking around. Sarcastically but not meanly. She resisted but not very hard. She did the damn dishes.

Another mom watching might have felt like it was ridiculous but I felt like it was a victory. It was almost easy.

We'll see how Thursday goes.

But I will make it happen either way. She's going to learn that there are limits.

NL,
An afterthought, one thing my T mentioned that I could pass on to you.  He recommended that  (in a  time of no conflict) ask my DD to track back to what she was thinking/feeling before she got upset.  Then try to deal with whatever was going on internally; anxious, frustrated, fear, tired, friend issues, etc.  This allows open dialogue and helps her to tune into herself better.   

Kids are feeling the strain of daily routines being disrupted, and  feeling powerless over their circumstances, I know I do right now!  So, I am trying to strike a balance between sensitivity to her with all of this change and also maintaining expectations of order and decency towards one another.

If it were me, I would tell DD clearly what the expectation is for example "I want you to do the dishes twice per week",  (very reasonable) and try to make it a positive thing, offer praise and maybe an incentive like dessert or a movie with mom.  I would follow up with, however, if you choose not to, than this (X) will be the consequence.  The ball is in her court, and it is no longer a power struggle between parent/child. 

It is good that you and H are basically on the same page.  I would also look for anything to praise her on, assignments, healthy choices, whatever.  Assure her we will all get through this and that good things can come through adversity.  As I write this, I am reminded to do the same for my kido's. 

I stay out of the parenting section because I find the posts involving kids stressful and triggering.

I have great empathy for little kids but spoiled selfish and entitled teens not so much.  My little sister was as you describe this young female. Notice I did not say young lady.

I would srtio he of all she hold dear and show her she is not entitled to ANYTHING.  I would provide only what is legally required of me until I got some respect and cooperation. 

My youngest started some such nonsenclse around 6 years old.  She wanted to go to an orphanage.  That is all we heard for months. 

I finally lost it.  I pondered what to do.  I then decided to empty her room of all but two worn out changes of okay cloths, a set of jammies one crappy coloring book and a few broken crayons and a crappy toy missing parts.

I gave her a new name, child 33.  I explained she would not be able to be a real orphan because I was legally required to take care of her because I was not lucky enough to be dead.  I would however do my best to let her experience being an orphan.  I gave her a slice of bread and cup of water on a table in the middle of her empty room.  She had to stay there.  We went about our normal activities.  That night we went to eat her favorite restaurant.  I explained we had to take no 33 along because it was illegal to leave her home alone but since she did not want a family the orphanage would provide a sack lunch for dinner.  We came home and she returned to her room and we watched a movie without her. 

She broke.

I did not restore her stuff however.  She got it back incrementally  while being cooperative and having a decent attitude toward others.

I am so sorry you have to deal with this level of disrespect and lack of empathy.

I hope you can make your way forward.  It will be worth it as a parent when you see the rewards. 

My guess would be that she is responding to you under the parameters set by your spouse. That might be one angle to approach the problem from as well.

I can totally relate to you wanting to take off after her.  I wanted to tackle her just reading your post. 

NL, I have been thinking about your post a lot and considering my journey with oldest DD who is nearly out of teenage years.
So much of uBPDh's behaviors are learned from his FOO. I don't know if it is BPD it fleas, but I do know it's poisonous.
My journey Out of the FOG started when DD was about 14. I was terrified to see her acting out those hurtful behaviors. Sarcastic or snide comments. Passive aggression. Martyr syndrome. All the things her dad does.  I thought I can't let her end up like him!!
I started researching teen behavior and reading up on parenting skills. What I learned is that many of those responses are a natural part of emotional development. We can expect them from teens as they grow. And it's up to us to help them see which behaviors are acceptable which aren't.
I agree with the suggestions here to provide choices with consequences. "You do the dishes when I ask and do them well. Or you can lose your phone."
At a later time, when things are calm, talk to her about how her reactions influenced the situation and what she might do differently the next time.
Or this one: "I know you're angry with me right now. That's ok. But giving me the silent treatment isn't going to get you what you want. When you're ready to talk. I'm here."
The big difference between our teenagers and our PDs is that we can affect change in the teens. this is huge!!
I've seen DD learn and grow and it's so rewarding.
She's not perfect, but I'd say she's emotionally more mature than her dad at this point.

Great suggestions. I am going to start using the consequences thing that several people suggested. Taking away the phone fir increments of time. She will try to fight me on it but I can just keep adding increments. The idea is to stop engaging. Instead of me being on the defensive with her verbal games - though I think I don't fall for them much, but sometimes we still get stuck - she is just going to have to cave or never see her phone again. That gives me the power (and not an unfair one) and makes the BS not only ineffectual but a loss for her.

I also like the "okay that you're mad but (etc)" line.

Fyi, in case anyone was bothered by my saying I was about to go after her, I just meant that I would have taken her by the shoulders and steered her back to the sink and blocked her exit. I would have pushed only as hard as I had to, which probably would have been somewhat hard, but neither of us were going to get hurt. She would not, for her part, done anything more than dug in her heels to resist.

Yes, entitlement is not something I have any patience for. Lots of things I can work with, but entitlement is something I cannot respect.

That kind of problem only comes up sporadically. She's almost always cheerful. I wouldn't say she was *helpful* but she's not moody except on odd occasions.

I think since Sunday she's been more careful, though. She demanded I prepare her a sandwich (cheerfully but not politely). I informed her that from now on, I would not be responding to demands, only polite requests. Normally she would have resisted that - no blow-up, just blown it off - but instead she said "okay." And today she asked for something "please."

But TOMORROW is a big day. Tomorrow will be her 2nd dish day. I expect her to resist. It's a (virtual) school day and she has NO TIME, I only said it was that one day (nope). She caaaaaaaaan't. So I will start by saying that each complaint will result in 10 minutes loss of phone. ("But I have SCHOOOOOOOL, I need it for SCHOOOOL."  Well, then, even more reason not to lose access to the phone then).

Almost looking forward to this.

I want to encourage you to hang in there.  It so difficult when you have others interfering and disagreeing with you.  That can't seem to understand that it is for the good of your child.

My younger daughter has ADHD and I suspect ODBD.  From the time she was born, I knew that something was different about her.  Temper tantrums on a daily basis.  Struggling with two people to get her into a car seat.  Non stop screaming if she didn't want her sister sitting by her in the car.

I made the decision before she was two, that I wasn't raising an animal.  I had few rules but they were non-negotiable.  Her discipline was consequences.  My daughter chose her actions and chose the consequences (loss of toys, bike riding etc.). My husband disagreed with me and constantly tried to interfere.  He learned to back off because it was much worse for him, because I wasn't going to allow him to destroy her with giving in to her and rewarding or ignoring her disobedience.

Our home life was not the most peaceful, but by the age of seven, we felt that we could take a plane trip with our daughter and she did very well.

I have been criticized many times for the way I raised both of my daughters.  My younger daughter is a speech pathologist.  She struggled in school but worked hard.  I have seen the consequences when parents let the kids rule the home.  Many of these kids are struggling in relationships and jobs because the world and society could care less about their feelings and temper tantrums.  My younger daughter has thanked me many times for helping her and disciplining her (when she was older).  I have a very close relationship with both girls as does my husband.  He will occasionally bring up his disagreement with how I handled our younger daughter but will agree with the results.

Great story, good job with that.

 :phoot: :phoot: :phoot:

She only made a few good natured complaints, not actually resisting but just dramatically going UGHHHHHH while smiling teasingly.

She is now doing the dishes while happily talking on speakerphone to her friend. I didn't have to argue with her once; her teasing complaints didn't require any response.

I GOT THIS. <cracks whip>

You do have it!  Consistency is your best friend.  Kids actually like rules and boundaries.  I had a principal of a high school giving me a hard time when i made a comment about teenagers liking rules and boundaries.  I asked him why he thought that teenagers joined gangs with all of their rules.  He had no comment.

Agreed. I think anxious kids crave consistency and boundaries even more than most, and my kid has anxiety.

My former neighbors had kids with strong personalities and weak parents. It struck me that from a tiny age - as young as 2, when I met the oldest girl - that these kids could not have felt safe given that their parents were so weak.

That girl got her way but the price she paid was having to feel like she was the only one in charge from toddlerhood. I want my kid to feel like her mom is competent, wise, steady, solid, grounded. A mom who enforces boundaries also protects them.

Well done, NL. Sounds like progress.
:applause:
Someone once told me that kids are like at the night watchman, checking the doors to see if they're locked. They don't want to find an unlocked door, but they'll keep checking.

I've  kept that image with me. Even with uBPDh undermining my parenting. I hope it helps you too.

That's a great image, I like that. Will ponder it.

It's not the same, but it reminds me that some PDs (like my MIL) are like velociraptors from Jurassic Park, systematically checking the electric fence for weak points. But they are hoping to crack the fence. I like the night watchmen idea, they are just making sure the door's locked like it should be.

I love it!
Kids and night watchman check boundaries because it's their job.
PDs and velociraptors check boundaries because they want to take a bite out of you.

 :yeahthat:
I love this too. I am always creating visual analogies in my mind to help me cope.  These will be added to the highlight reel! Thanks!

A new issue, and I am not handling it well at all.

We had a game delivered to us that we both enjoy playing. I asked if she wanted to play the eening it arrived, she said she didn't feel like it right then. No problem.

The next evening I asked if maybe she just wanted to take a 10 minute break from what she was doing (and she'd been doing it for hours), play a round or two with me, and then get right back to her activity. If she had declined, I would have been disappointed but I would have dealt with it. No big deal.

Instead, she went UGHHHHH FINE like I'd been on her case for hours.

Okay, she's a teen. I know that.

But it hurt my feelings and I felt kind of triggered. Her reaction put me in a weird place. Was I really expected to say "great, thank you so much?" And enjoy the game that she so magnaminously allowed? I am living in the same house as her and yet am hardly ever seeing her. I only got the game in the first place because she was down for it.

Okay, so a better parent than me would have calmly responded, maybe explained why her reaction was not appropriate or necessary, and reminded her that there are ways to decline an invitation without emotionally rejecting a person.

But Innever really get the idea it gets through. Her response would have been similar (UGHH) and then she would have gotten everything exactly how she wanted it, going back to her activity with no consequence but a ine minute lecture easily ignored and no effort on her part to fix things.

I've found myself cold to her and pushing her away. I don't think I've done this before. She approached me the next day wanting to show me something but I was not interested. Yeah I know, real mature of me.

Yet every time I try to rethink it, I keep feeling like, why do I have to do all the emotional work here? Why do I have to smooth it over and be available to her while she does whatever the hell she wants? Why do I have to be kindly interested in her every dumb activity when she can't be bothered to practice basic civility?

Thing is, it wasn't a big deal - it was that SHE WILL NOT FIX IT. No apology. Not even a semi apology. Not even just making an extra effort toward me somehow. Nothing. She will just go on her merry way until *I* fix it somehow. AND I'M SICK OF IT.

I'm triggered because I'm SICK of absorbing every emotional blow alone, sick of just picking up the pieces all by myself every damn time. My life with my husband is terrible, it's hell, and I just try to soldier on. But I don't have it in me to be a mature adult about this. Either I will just get over it eventually and she will be confirmed that she doesn't have to fix anything, just wait it out for ither people to swallow her crap and move on with no consequence to her, or our relationship just fractured firever over something so trivial. It makes me wonder if we really even have a relTionship to fracture anymore. Just a few years ago she was my sweet baby, now I don't think she'd care if I disappeared forever except I wouldn't be available to make her a sandwich.

With the benefit of hindsight (my daughters are now in their 20s), I offer the following:

1) My daughters did things like this, and I felt similarly to you. My then husband did not behave the same way your husband does, but he was in the midst of withdrawing as a father and as a husband. 
2) I don't think you need to "get over it," but you do need to get through it.
3) I doubt your relationship wih your daughter is fractured.
4) I don't advocate blowing up at your daughter, but I think it's okay to sometimes express your feelings to her.

I have great relationships with my daughters now. And as negative as things sometimes were while they were teenagers, our relationships then were okay, too.  They were being normal teenagers, and I was being a normal mother of teenagers.

Thank you so much, I really needed to hear about six different things in your post.

Unfortunately, I seem to still be emotionally blocked from dealing with this. I'm surprised at myself. I think my suck-it-up just plain broke.

DD asked me to make her a sandwich, I told her to make her own sandwich, and she burst out asking why I was doing this to her. It was difficult for me because I simultaneously felt ashamed of myself and also annoyed at her entitlement.

She played the PD game. Circular argument. Pretended she couldn't remember the original incident, then would switch to citing details, then pretending again. Pretended I never told her anything was wrong despite text evidence. The whole thing was just denying, deflecting, no interest in resolving things. Tried to switch the order of things. Felt like the only problem was me. I haaaaaated hearing this PD crap out of her mouth. This was the first time I had a full blown circular argument with her and I loathed it.

I cut it off after a few minutes. I know all too well that trying to explain what should have been learned in Kindergarten doesn't work.

I'm ashamed of myself but I'm stuck.

NL,
That is tough, and I experience disappointments with DD sometimes when we are out of synch with each other.   I took a course for my degree on child development, I learned that the prefrontal cortex of the brain is the last to develop in young adults, girls around early twenties and boys a bit later.  The prefrontal cortex is responsible for things like emotional regulation and impulse control, so teens struggle because they are not fully developed/mature and are not supposed to be.  I have to remind myself of this and adjust my expectations to 'age appropriate'.  Some of what you describe is normal for her age, so just try not to take it personally (especially since we are all stressed with shelter-in-place orders) .  Sometimes this becomes more difficult if we are feeling loss in our spousal relationships.  Don't beat yourself up for being 'chilly' to DD, just try and move forward.  I'm not saying that you don't address her behavior, just keep it in perspective.

Just saw your recent post.   It's good that you cut it off when started going south.  Don't be ashamed! These are trying circumstances for all.  You modeled that this type of communication ends with a time out, that is good for both of you.  I really get the feeling of hitting a wall and not having any more to give.  Maybe, for now,  you could tell her that the issue is shelved until a better time when you can deal with it constructively, tell her you are upset but you love her and that you will talk after a time-out.

Give yourself a break and some rest if you can :bighug:

My younger daughter had a mouth on her and could be quite disrespectful.  I asked her if she spoke and treated her friends the way that she treated me.  No, she didn't.  I asked her if I spoke to her disrespectfully and was rude to her.  I asked her if she had ever seen m speak to anyone like that and she said that I wasn't rude and disrespectful to others.  So I asked her, why she felt that she could be rude and disrespectful to me and not others.  She had no answer, but toned it down after that.  I had to remind her occasionally about her rudeness, but kept it limited, to more major blow ups.

I need a script or a goal or something.

What I want is for her to make some sort of emotional effort. It doesn't have to be "I'm sorry" but maybe "I really didn't mean it like that" in a sincere tone of voice.

The problem is, I'm not going to get any of that. The best I'll get is something that will leave me feeling worse, not better.

I'm trying to hear you guys that it's all normal for the age. I know the original incident is normal. But the response feels totally abnormal to me.

When I was 14, I had empathy. Maybe I'd be a brat for a minute, but the people I cared about never doubted I did.

My friends at age 14, same thing. Everyone cared. Even my BPD friend, she would explode when triggered, but she cared very, very much. Other teens I have watched grow up from the vantage of adulthood, same thing.

My kid only cares that I serve her a sandwich. This whole thing has been merely inconvenient to her because in my super mature stonewalling, I've stopped the ridiculous servant duties and now she's had to turn to her grandmother for service instead.

I haven't tried to resolve this because I am going to feel worse coming out of this, not better. If I need a sign she cares about anyone but herself, it's gonna hurt.

If looking for a sign she cares is not the goal, then what is? Give me a script.

I sat down and explained that while she hurt my feelings the other day, it wasn't a very big deal - but the thing that really hurt was that she didn't try to fix it when it was obvious she hurt my feelings.

She said, "sorry."

I said I appreciated that.

I still feel a distance, now not because of this but we have no closeness rituals anymore. She has not wanted me to touch her, including hug her, for a few years.

I made a huge mistake, I think. Years and years ago, the BPDish part of H was threatened by my closeness with DD. he made this clear. I was confused and didn't undertand what was going on. Eventually I found myself pulling away in order to reduce the issue. Stupid, I know. I feel so incredibly sad about this and all the terrible mistakes I've made.

I never meant to, like, never hug her again. I don't even know how it happened. But now I can't - she hates it. If I ask if I can hug her, the answer is No. I did one time get her to very reluctantly and stiffly accept a hug last year.

Her friend's grandmother hugs her all the time.

How did I screw this up so bad?

So anyway, she apologized adequately and I still feel a chasm, not blaming her, I just feel it.

NL, let me share my experience with you. Maybe it will help.
When DD the elder turned about 12, she stopped wanting to be touched/hugged by me. She would pull away or stand there stiffly, if I tried to hug her. The phase seems to be passing as she gets older.
I'm seeing DD the younger doing the same thing with me now.
Note that this seems to be particular to mom. Grandmas, friends, sisters, cousins, dads are all eagerly and happily hugged. It hurts and it's not fair, but there it is.

I'm sorry to read that this chasm is still their and that you are still feeling a distance with your child. 

I can imagine myself making statements like the following to see what responded I would get.

D, I  feeling like our relationship is getting more distant of late. There are so many things we used to do that we no longer do.  There is no affection, communicating  is strained , I cannot see to find a common activity for us to participate in.

We don't have casual conversations any more. Many recent attempt at communicating devolved into negative experiences for one or both of us.

I get plenty or request and demands for service to your benefit like cooking and cleaning but this is not reciprocated when I ask for dishes to be washed etc.

Am I missing something or have I been somehow demoted from Mom to a servant or maid of some kind.   I can assure you Instill love you and the law changes hurt.  I miss my daughter and the connection we should be having.

Imo if its hard for us as adults to not take things personally then how much harder might it be for a child even a teenage child to not take words, actions, and inactions personally?

Quote from: NumbLotus on April 18, 2020, 03:41:30 PM
'I made a huge mistake, I think. Years and years ago, the BPDish part of H was threatened by my closeness with DD. he made this clear. I was confused and didn't undertand what was going on. Eventually I found myself pulling away in order to reduce the issue. Stupid, I know. I feel so incredibly sad about this and all the terrible mistakes I've made.''

Could some good possibly come from turning this around, as the adult, and imagine her pain that could be buried under these defenses (or fleas which may be inadequate coping skills) Please dont accept this narrative by your IV (inner voice) as a certian reality: "My kid only cares that I serve her a sandwich."
Certianly EVERY KID wants to be loved and nurtured by their mother!
You have the insight that you are triggered so we know that dd did not give you the origional wound, but is simply reactivating it with her behavior. I humbly and with care in my heart suggest working on the origional wound.
IME dropping ALL judgement of ourselves and others leads to healing.
Not to say you shouldnt point out rudness but no healing in the relationship can come from the  'she is rude and wont apologise being that she is pd and cares about nothing'.
You asked for a script. Idk. Could you want her to prove to you she DOESNT have a pd by measuring her up to certian expectations you have ie: if she doesnt have a personality disorder then she would come and apologise to me...?
All of this I say with compassion I hope it doesnt hurt you! If it isnt helpful disregard it of course.
Coincidentally I just read this yesterday. It is so painful but true https://www.peacecounselinggroup.com/2010/05/25/just-what-are-you-insinuating/ that with the best of intentions and being the best we can we may still write with our mistakes on the clean slate of our children. It is part of the human condition IMO
:bighug:  :hug:

Wow, thanks for these great replies. I will address them and then post an update.

Lauren17, that is interesting. I hope eventually the phase will pass like it seems to be doing for your older DD. fir my DD, it's not mom only, she doesn't want hugs from her father or anyone else including friends, and in fact abhire any kind of touch. I think she has some sensitivity issue - she also has misophonia (is disturbed by certain ordinary sounds). She allows the friend's grandmother to hug her but I dunno if she just barely tolerates it ir is more okay with it - the grandmother is super huggy and cuddly and has been a "grandmother" to DD since she was 3. DD said that the grandmother just hugs so she just deals.

1foot, thank you, I appreciate the scrilt idea. I have an update I'll post next but I really do appreciate it.

PB, you've pointed out some really crucial things. I'm intellectually aware that as a parent, I need to be dealing with the situation as an adult, being calm and loving and guiding and not making it all personal. I think sometimes I can do that but this time I just couldn't get past my emotions. It was humbling and difficult. I usually can deal by understanding that DD isn't "done yet" but I was feeling a loss of hope, and I was stuck. And some of it was just having a lot of non-DD emotions that are just overflowing.

There is definitely pain buried under DD's defenses. She is very anxious and has coped by being obsessive about her interests. She told me she fills her eery waking thought with her ibsessions like a show or music artist or YouTuber to drown out her anxious thoughts. She's explained that her brain screams catastophe constantly, like if she's walking down a sidewalk and a car comes by her brain shouts "that car is going to jumb the curb and kill you!!" Constantly. And that's on top of the family dysfunction with a bizarrely unwell father who has mkstly lost contact with her (he used to be a GREAT father and was always extremely intereted in her, now he is in a fig and barely thinks about her) and the tension between her parents, and my coling by hiding in my room (always available to her, and she comes in freely, but the house feels empty and cold rather than a place where people live).

Anyway, yes, she is carrying quite a load.

Will read your link later on.

It's a good update. After the brief "talk," we didn't have any closeness rituals but things just thawed out naturally over the next day as we both let down our guards again.

I found the thing I was looking for, the thing I sincerely and strongly feared was not there, that I couldn't see at all. I have glimpsed she does care. I saw it in the way she, after things thawed out, suddenly spent a lot of time in the room with me (granted with headphones on and doing her own thing - but in the same room rather than alone in hers). She has been telling me about all the tuff she's intereted in - something she watched, a silly Snap she sent a friend, a music artist she is into. Just sharing her mind with me and being excited about it.

And, I see her making an EFFORT. She has been saying thank you more, and her requests have softened from demands to somewhat more polite requests. She still SIGHS and UGHS when asked to do things, but less. Like, instead of digging in her heels she'll just sigh as she is going to DO it. Also she does the dishes on her nights without a squawk lol.

I'm not just talking about her being more compliant/less rude directly, I'm talking about reading between the lines and seeing she is making an effort for me.

The game I got that she blew me off on so rudely, we've been olaying about an hour a night, and we play music and she talks nonstop while we play.

Anyway, I will have my low points again no doubt but now I have this to hold on to, I see through those chinks enough to know she's still in there. And that's what I really needed.

One thing that helped with my teens was openly discussing the loss of a parent and family member as my spouses mental health has deteriorated.

I openly discuss my reasons for staying verses leaving and that I constantly weigh and balance what is best for them amd us as a family.

I also empower them to set boundaries and encourage them to be assertive toward pdh while remaining respectful in tone. 

 :yeahthat:

@NumbLotus, how are things going for you and your daughter?

Thanks for thinking of us!

I feel just much better feeling like I've seen she cares, which as I think I said, everyone here is probably all "well duh" but I really wasn't sure.

I did have a dustup with her where I found out there were two small homework assignments she hadn't handed in from February (she was probably out sick and just didn't make them up) that were dragging her grade down. I knew she would resist doing them but I was surprised at how much resistance she put up. I was in good humor but it was just all BS about how she had so much ither homework to do and no she wasn't doing it now because she has a LIFE blah blah.

Anyway, the point is that I felt differently because of knowing she's not lost to me.

I told her she had a choice. She could hand in one of the assignments that night and the other the next night, and give me proof. Or, if I got up in the morning and I didn't have proof, I'd take her phone and sit in the room with her while she did it. And I just left the room rather than keep arguing. I was super firm, too, she knew I wasn't messing around.

30 minutes later, proof was emailed to me.

Next night, same thing.

I AM the night watchman, and I WILL lock those doors!

You know thats really fantastic. 
It sounds like you have noticed how much of an effect your inner narrative has on your functioning in relationships.
IE no longer 'telling yourself your D was lost to you'.

Kids actually want order and guidance and structure in their lives.  Good job.

It's this tricky thing about boundaries, here.

I accept I can't control another person - not my H, nor my MIL, my mother, the rude lady at the drugstore, etc. I own my stuff and their stuff is theirs. Not always easy but I have it understood in my mind, even if I do make mistakes from time to time.

But my kid. I'm her parent. I am obligated to her and to society to do my best to bring up a person with integrity, with basic life skills, who can conduct her behavior and emotions appropriately. While that is absolutely true, I have to get it fixed in my head that as a parent, I am a guide, a teacher, a coach, all of those examples and models that still obey the laws of boundaries 

99% of the time, this is fine. But when she is especially rude or entitled or manipulative or whatever, my emotions go HOW DARE SHE. I can't BELIEVE she could be so bratty or selfish or care so little about others.

There is this delicate place where it's possible to neither give up and condine the behaviir but also not crash over the boundaries.

She is her own person and she makes her own choices. I do not need to tolerate her bad behavior, but I also can't MAKE her change.

I can't MAKE her change, but I also don't have to throw up my hands and say "oh well." A fine line, there. Hard to wrap the head around.

I control myself, not her. I can expect her to do dishes twice a week. I can't MAKE her do it. I can control myself and my emotions and enforce choices for her. It's not that I'm allowing her to not do the dishes, it's just boundaries. She can do the dishes or I can take her phone or tell her friend's mom that she can't come over later or whatever.

Maybe it looks the same on the outside, but it's different on the inside. There's an acceptance. She makes her own choices. I make mine.

As a parent, I do have the right to interfere more than with an adult, I can take her phone or cancel an activity. But it still respects the boundaries that she is ultimately in charge of her choices and her expressions, and even her values. I can choose some of her consequences.

The difference is not butting heads. End of power struggle. I stop trying to make her think and feel the way I want her to, I just decide what *I* will do to enforce MY boundaries. And I can model good emotional management and the values I care about.

It's not just about taking her phone away, either. I needed help with something that would have been very easy for her (but I couldn't do being legally blind). She resisted instead of just frickin doing it. My mom got up and did it for her  The way that particular scenario unfolded, I let it go right then instead of getting mad, and after a while I saw her alone and I just looked her in the eye and quietly said, "you should have done that" and then just dropped it. Maybe you could pick apart my phrasing, but the difference was I didn't try to make her agree, I just said my piece and moved on. I saw her eyes drop when I said it. She heard me. It's up to her what she does next time I need help.

Quote from: NumbLotus on May 12, 2020, 01:13:44 PM
..... I needed help with something that would have been very easy for her (but I couldn't do being legally blind). She resisted instead of just frickin doing it. My mom got up and did it for her  The way that particular scenario unfolded, I let it go right then instead of getting mad, and after a while I saw her alone and I just looked her in the eye and quietly said, "you should have done that" and then just dropped it. Maybe you could pick apart my phrasing, but the difference was I didn't try to make her agree, I just said my piece and moved on. I saw her eyes drop when I said it. She heard me. It's up to her what she does next time I need help.

Was she able to express to you her feelings about or a reason for not wanting to immediately do it or not wanting to do it at all?
Does she know what your expectations are for her in regards to your requests that are due to your blindness?

We didn't discuss that particular event, but she has at times expressed that she is transactional, doesn't really care about others, is "just lazy," and risks nothing to see if she can get out of having to do a thing.

No, these aren't my words, or her being sarcastic. These are her sincere assessments.

As an aside, she often goes on rants about how much she hates children, never having children. She has asked me in all sincerity why someone would have a child - what do we get out of it? I've tried to describe the joys of seeing children explore the world, and taking care of them, but she says she doesn't get it - those things don't have any value to her.

Also, when I point out things like "how would you feel if you were in the other position" or similar, she says "that's different. I care about myself."

So she sincerely is low on empathy. She must just be built that way. Fortunately, she is not malignant at all, and is cheerful and she is not unkind to people nor destructive. Just views the world with the lens "what's in it for me?" And not grandiose or waify at all, happy to live her life but not interested in doing anything she doesn't feel like doing.

I dislike that, but I can't climb inside her mind and change it. She may improve somewhat with age but is likely going to be something like this forever. Her grandmother and great grandmother (on H's side) are/were also pleasant, cheerful, and a bit weird in the empathy department (in different ways).

About my expectations, well, I did clearly and reasonably express my request and the reason for it, but she didn't want to and when my mother got up to do it, it was "problem solved" for her. She is crystal clear on my condition.

Lol she is the WORST at guiding when she has to. She drags me around in an anxious panic. She may have ADD as well as anxiety, so thinking about what is coming up or what I need to know is too much for her. (My H is really bad too - the only good thing is if I've got his arm, I am not going to fall!). We've been taking walks around the neighborhood and she will suddenly react and announce "Oh my god mom! You just stepped on a dead frog!" And I'll be like "this is your JOB!! Tell me BEFORE I step on a dead freaking frog!" And she'll say "I didn't notice it until you stepped on it!!" Such is my life. (It's all light hearted).

Oh my what did you do before she was old enough to do this job and what are you going to do after she is gone?
As previous comment by Free2Bme mentioned the teenage brain isnt fully developed.
So no teenagers are not 'made that way' yet until early 20's.
Please check this article out on research that is specifically about teenagers and empathy. https://www.melbournechildpsychology.com.au/blog/help-teenagers-develop-empathy/
There is reason to believe that this will not be the permanent condition of your dd's personality and relationship functioning.

Are you saying the problem is that I asked her for help with something?

IMHO the problems are not the problem. The problem is actually the interpretation of the problems or the inner narrative about the 'problem'. 
IME it is possible to get 'stuck' trying to fix 'symtoms' (which are seen as the 'problem') and do not address the underlying causes (the actual core issues) that are at play in relationships.
I do not think that you asking her for help is a problem. But all I know is what you post so I dont know very much.
I do wonder if a problem could be how you feel about how she feels about you and/or how she feels about how you feel about her.
But of course I dont know the answer to that.

Absolutely, I struggled a great deal with how I felt about how I thought she felt about me (convoluted lol but you know what I mean). I think that part is resolved, though. And with it, if she was having similar feelings of her own, I think likewise resolved.

She and I are are connected again. She loves to talk to me and share what is going on in her head and with her friends and so on.

I am still trying to wrap my head around my approach to problematic behavior. I just think one of my problems is being too emotional about how she thinks (that is, her low empathy). She thinks what she thinks and I need to deal with that and let it go.

Which is not the same as just letting her run wild. But I've got to stay within my boundaries.

So if she refuses to do something, instead of me getting all wrapped up into a ball about it, it's just a matter of me enforcing my boundaries. I do not try to control her actions or thoughts or feelings. I just give her a choice. Do the dishes or there will be a reasonable consequence. If she chooses the reasonable consequence, fine, she has a right to.

I still give her boundaries but it's not me forcing my thoughts and values on her. It's just safe boundaries in a safe aorld that has limits, some not so fun (dishes) but also a world where she doesn't have to feel the danger of having no boundaries at all.

Thats great!
I do hope you investigate the undeveloped teenage brain. The research has been done. The evidence is there. Empathy is something that part of the brain (not developed yet in teenagers) needs to be taught!