Out of the FOG

Have I missed Dad and his dramas? Not at all.
Has he still wound me up even more so via phone? Definitely.

I've been saved so far in wales. Current rules are you can visit someone in their garden within 5 miles. I live 20+ away. I've got a feeling this may end soon.

Dad, I can tell, has plans. These plans seem to include me spending ALL my free time with him because "hes been stuck home for months so wants to see me a lot now".
Not going to happen. Of course, I'll visit him BUT I'm still working mon-fri, wife works, I've got kids. I cant work 9-5 mon-fri then come evening, weekend bail on them.

Alas, Dad does not think this way. Its going to be a nightmare.

Stick to your boundaries! You will be tested but you can see he survived just fine without your frequent visits. Yes he will use this to manipulate you into falling back into line. Don't give him that power. Put yourself and your family first before the needs of a man who you know will never be happy ever no matter what you do.

I'm worried as well.  I haven't seen PDmil in many, many months and this has been good.  DH has had to go see her on his own...mostly fulfilling her to do list.  I just learned that PDmil's sister has put the brakes on visits with PDmil because of the pandemic.  That means that PDmil has mostly been interacting with DH or his sister.  I can only assume that PDmil has been spending a lot of time on her own....minus groceries and md appts.  She has had procedures put on hold because of the pandemic....so as soon as those protocols have been lifted, PDmil will need help making and getting to those appts. 

I know it may seem that I sound uncaring, especially since PDmil is elderly....but I'm sorry, she's had many chances throughout her life to LEARN to care for herself.  She really doesn't have any limitations but BELIEVES that she does.  She paints herself to be such a selfless person but being overly selfless is actually selfish.  And she wants everyone to pay for this.

So no....I absolutely have no desire to see her ever again.  I am dreading every darn minute of lockdown relaxation.  I've loved the peace and I'm going to fight HARD if I have to be in her presence again.  I'm ready and continue to work on my self care and WILL handle whatever she tosses my way.   :righton:  You can do this, too!!!

Hi p123,

This is the perfect segue into your new life.  :)  Some possible responses:

* Dad, I can't come this week because I'm overwhelmed at work. 
* Dad, I can't possibly come because my wife is just now going back to work and she's still compromised from her surgery and needs my help.
*Dad, I can't possibly help you because you are in the "vunerable" population and to be near you would compromise your health.
*Dad, I can't help you because my children need my attention now.

You get the picture.  You and yours (and YOU) need your attention, so you can't help your dad right now.  Let your brother step in and attend to him.  This is quite possibly your big chance to reclaim your life and let your dad fend for himself, let him engage with your brother, who has all that time on his hands and can deal with him, while you tend to you and yours.   :cool2:

P123, i feel your pain.  I'm in a different area of the UK that has a 5 mile rule (I love Wales btw!), but my parents live within that 5 miles  :-\ And I'm back to mixture of pressure to visit, threat of them visiting, wanting to see them and dreading it all at the same time.

I have noticed a slip back to subtle guilt-inducing messages, so after a 3 month excuse of not visiting them except for dropping off shopping  (plus i was genuinely worried as they're both vulnerable) and a new routine of contact, the background simmering feeling of trepidation is back full time. 

Could this be a time to allude to the fact that your new routine which came about during lockdown has allowed you to focus more on your FOC (Lay on the guilt about how that's got to take priority "I'm sure you understand, dad"), and perhaps lay down a new visiting regime **because it's important to you to make time for dad** (then you get to say when and how often, but it's planned in advance and adhering to your boundaries?).

Stay strong.

Quote from: Pepin on June 09, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
I'm worried as well.  I haven't seen PDmil in many, many months and this has been good.  DH has had to go see her on his own...mostly fulfilling her to do list.  I just learned that PDmil's sister has put the brakes on visits with PDmil because of the pandemic.  That means that PDmil has mostly been interacting with DH or his sister.  I can only assume that PDmil has been spending a lot of time on her own....minus groceries and md appts.  She has had procedures put on hold because of the pandemic....so as soon as those protocols have been lifted, PDmil will need help making and getting to those appts. 

I know it may seem that I sound uncaring, especially since PDmil is elderly....but I'm sorry, she's had many chances throughout her life to LEARN to care for herself.  She really doesn't have any limitations but BELIEVES that she does.  She paints herself to be such a selfless person but being overly selfless is actually selfish.  And she wants everyone to pay for this.

So no....I absolutely have no desire to see her ever again.  I am dreading every darn minute of lockdown relaxation.  I've loved the peace and I'm going to fight HARD if I have to be in her presence again.  I'm ready and continue to work on my self care and WILL handle whatever she tosses my way.   :righton:  You can do this, too!!!

Pepin - hey go for it. Its your MIL so its even easier to not get involved.

Sounds like my Dad. Thinks he has needs but hes ok really - all he wants is someone to fuss over him 24/7.

Quote from: Adrianna on June 09, 2020, 05:48:23 AM
Stick to your boundaries! You will be tested but you can see he survived just fine without your frequent visits. Yes he will use this to manipulate you into falling back into line. Don't give him that power. Put yourself and your family first before the needs of a man who you know will never be happy ever no matter what you do.

ha ha its gonna be a test!

Quote from: Happypants on June 10, 2020, 03:41:47 AM
P123, i feel your pain.  I'm in a different area of the UK that has a 5 mile rule (I love Wales btw!), but my parents live within that 5 miles  :-\ And I'm back to mixture of pressure to visit, threat of them visiting, wanting to see them and dreading it all at the same time.

I have noticed a slip back to subtle guilt-inducing messages, so after a 3 month excuse of not visiting them except for dropping off shopping  (plus i was genuinely worried as they're both vulnerable) and a new routine of contact, the background simmering feeling of trepidation is back full time. 

Could this be a time to allude to the fact that your new routine which came about during lockdown has allowed you to focus more on your FOC (Lay on the guilt about how that's got to take priority "I'm sure you understand, dad"), and perhaps lay down a new visiting regime **because it's important to you to make time for dad** (then you get to say when and how often, but it's planned in advance and adhering to your boundaries?).

Stay strong.

The fact that I live 20+ miles away has been a life saver. I've not even had to do his shopping because brother is 1 mile away.
And of course, brother got made redundant too so had plenty of time.

Dad told me last weekend that brother has got a new job starting this week. Back on high alert- Dad has pretty much left me alone because brother has been running around for him. 99% sure next phone call wil be "Im ill" like normal.

Has brother really got a job? Its 50/50. Hes got previous on this. In the past, hes preached to me about how much dad needs, how much he does etc then be caught out lying to Dad about something like this. I used to take great delight when Dad used to tell me how hard working my brother was working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week, then I'd show him a pic on facebook of brother in the pub on a saturday afternoon. That was so funny (although dad never believed the golden child would lie to him).

In the past hes used "I've got no food in the house" as a big stick. I filled his freezer in march but it must be gone by now but hes managed. I've offered to sort home delivery recently and in the past but the clever sod won't go down that route - thats his power there.

Trouble is hes got no garden. OK I can go in his house - I can't see the difference that much. BUT brother has been taking him out in the car which is surely not clever. Can guarantee he'll want to know why I wont take him out for a ride.

Just as has been said, be firm. That's what I plan on being.
Hubby has already pointed this out-  that my dad will now be compiling a list of 'catch -up' meals and treats that he reckons he will be owed. Plus he's waxing lyrical about a big BIG family reunion.
I can't think of anything worse. 🤨
AND I'm not going near a carvery/ buffet venue just after lockdown. Which is where it will be held. :roll:
I'm not a snob. It's just that the food tends to be dire- watery and tasteless-and I've always thought they were a bit of a germ fest at the best of times!  It's just another way I seem to differ from the family. Sigh.
Hubs is diabetic with high BP,so while he's not in the shielded category, we've had to take extra care, and still are of course.
So there's that. I'm not happy he's diabetic (under good control right now though) but I'll sure as hell use it if it gets me out of a family carvery.  I'm 61 so I can use that too. 😃

My dad is pretty scared of the great grandkids, and has warned me a lot about their being 'super spreaders' even though the science seems now to lean to the contrary concerning the transmission of covid.
He will warn me off!
I can't wait to see them. It's the top of the list.

You have lots of responsibilities regarding your own family. They come first and foremost always. As does your OWN catching up of your own life, whether it's work or leisure.
Dad can be on the list. When you think of where dad needs to be on that list, try not to be influenced by what you think may be his expectations. Just do what you think is right and enough.  And stick to that!

You have a permanent built in excuse...."Dad, you got along fine all those months in lock down, you really don't need me dropping everything to run out there now. I'll see you at my next regularly scheduled visit."

Before all this I was worried about not having my father over at Easter. He now needs help in the bathroom and I just don't want to do that! Not to mention as the host how would I have the time.  This Covid 19 saved me from making that decision.    I facetimed my father last week. I haven't spoken to him since February as he no longer understands how to make phone calls.  He didn't understand facetime either. Kept asking me when I was going to visit when he finally  understood that it was me live on the phone and not just a picture of me.

Quote from: nanotech on June 10, 2020, 06:42:52 PM
Just as has been said, be firm. That's what I plan on being.
Hubby has already pointed this out-  that my dad will now be compiling a list of 'catch -up' meals and treats that he reckons he will be owed. Plus he's waxing lyrical about a big BIG family reunion.
I can't think of anything worse. 🤨
AND I'm not going near a carvery/ buffet venue just after lockdown. Which is where it will be held. :roll:
I'm not a snob. It's just that the food tends to be dire- watery and tasteless-and I've always thought they were a bit of a germ fest at the best of times!  It's just another way I seem to differ from the family. Sigh.
Hubs is diabetic with high BP,so while he's not in the shielded category, we've had to take extra care, and still are of course.
So there's that. I'm not happy he's diabetic (under good control right now though) but I'll sure as hell use it if it gets me out of a family carvery.  I'm 61 so I can use that too. 😃

My dad is pretty scared of the great grandkids, and has warned me a lot about their being 'super spreaders' even though the science seems now to lean to the contrary concerning the transmission of covid.
He will warn me off!
I can't wait to see them. It's the top of the list.

You have lots of responsibilities regarding your own family. They come first and foremost always. As does your OWN catching up of your own life, whether it's work or leisure.
Dad can be on the list. When you think of where dad needs to be on that list, try not to be influenced by what you think may be his expectations. Just do what you think is right and enough.  And stick to that!

Ha ha went away once to watch  cricket for the weekend with him. Stayed in a travelodge (he moaned that was way too posh and expensive). EVERY SINGLE MEAL we ate in the local wetherspoons.
Now I dont mind it but not EVERY DAY. Of course, every evening meal he has the cheapest thing on the menu too - ham, egg and chips. Then he looks at me in disgust when I order steak for £9 or something.....

Oh yes, I'm sure hes gonna expect a homecoming parade or something.

Can GUARANTEE when I explain that no I have other people hes going to say "but you've just spent months with them they'll have to understand that you need to focus on me now". <sigh>

Quote from: lkdrymom on June 11, 2020, 01:15:00 PM
You have a permanent built in excuse...."Dad, you got along fine all those months in lock down, you really don't need me dropping everything to run out there now. I'll see you at my next regularly scheduled visit."

Before all this I was worried about not having my father over at Easter. He now needs help in the bathroom and I just don't want to do that! Not to mention as the host how would I have the time.  This Covid 19 saved me from making that decision.    I facetimed my father last week. I haven't spoken to him since February as he no longer understands how to make phone calls.  He didn't understand facetime either. Kept asking me when I was going to visit when he finally  understood that it was me live on the phone and not just a picture of me.

Yes in some ways its been good-  parents have had to get on with it and showed they can.

Dad is like that. He NEEDS people to do this and that. Reality is he NEEDS nothing at all, its what he wants. He wants to be treated, if I'm honest, like an adult baby.

Hes managed months now with brother getting him food. I've offered to get it delivered. Yet I know he will slot back straight into "No food in the house", and "they have those meals I like in the supermarket near you". Its laughable.

Oh and the toilet thing. We went away to stay in hotel once. He wanted me to wash him in the shower. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
No chance - he manages at home every other day so why? Honestly, I felt a bit sick....

I'm never doing the toilet thing.  :blink:
Seriously, the food thing.  :stars:
It's so similar to how my dad is.

P123 - Yes I dread it. One good thing about the lockdowns was that it provided relief. Relief from being on the receiving side of their anger from not visiting enough or otherwise failing to meet some expectation we never knew they had until they lashed out. Of course, my parents still found ways to lash out on the phone about other stuff, but I did not have to see them in person, drive to their house, or sit across a table from them.
I have gone from VLC with my parents to now being just one notch above NC. Firmer boundaries are in place. I think what others noted here is correct. We now know they will not dissolve without us. They will be fine without our presence, and we have proof of that.

Yes that's true Blueberry Pancakes. They cope far better than they would have us believe.
It's just like my dad's bed changing routine. Younger sis offered to do it right after mum died, and has sometimes dropped hints that I should share it. Well I never offered it, so no.  :wacko:  :blink: I'm 30 odd miles away and she's 2miles away.
I did wonder if she felt obligated to fill mum's  shoes because it was seen by dad as 'women's work'.
Well, lockdown has proved what I suspected all along, that he was capable of doing this chore himself. He's been fine with the whole thing for a good three months now.
I think younger sis is sorry she started it. Perhaps this is her chance to wriggle out of it, once lockdown is over? 
P123. Told you I was keeping my calls to dad to weekly? He clearly doesn't think it's often enough.  :yeahthat:
When I ring, he's  taken to ignoring my calls, then not returning them. Then when I do get through, he immediately says he's busy, and  then puts the phone down for an age while he faffs about, or else insists on ringing me back later. I know he's making at least some of these excuses up, because the reason he gives me when he claims it's a bad time to ring, has sometimes changed to another reason by the end of the call( he forgets what he said in the first place!).
Every single time I say ' Hi dad', I get  'Ah um I was just about to....  it's a bad time. 😦 He doesn't even say ' Hi '. It's just straight into the complaint about my bad timing.  😞

Quote from: nanotech on June 12, 2020, 05:41:18 AM
I'm never doing the toilet thing.  :blink:
Seriously, the food thing.  :stars:
It's so similar to how my dad is.

Trouble is Dad just said "oh I wont bother having a shower then", Ewww that was just as bad.

It was boiling hot and he only had one set of clothes (inc underwear) for 3 days as it was.

Quote from: nanotech on June 12, 2020, 08:20:09 PM
Yes that's true Blueberry Pancakes. They cope far better than they would have us believe.
It's just like my dad's bed changing routine. Younger sis offered to do it right after mum died, and has sometimes dropped hints that I should share it. Well I never offered it, so no.  :wacko:  :blink: I'm 30 odd miles away and she's 2miles away.
I did wonder if she felt obligated to fill mum's  shoes because it was seen by dad as 'women's work'.
Well, lockdown has proved what I suspected all along, that he was capable of doing this chore himself. He's been fine with the whole thing for a good three months now.
I think younger sis is sorry she started it. Perhaps this is her chance to wriggle out of it, once lockdown is over? 
P123. Told you I was keeping my calls to dad to weekly? He clearly doesn't think it's often enough.  :yeahthat:
When I ring, he's  taken to ignoring my calls, then not returning them. Then when I do get through, he immediately says he's busy, and  then puts the phone down for an age while he faffs about, or else insists on ringing me back later. I know he's making at least some of these excuses up, because the reason he gives me when he claims it's a bad time to ring, has sometimes changed to another reason by the end of the call( he forgets what he said in the first place!).
Every single time I say ' Hi dad', I get  'Ah um I was just about to....  it's a bad time. 😦 He doesn't even say ' Hi '. It's just straight into the complaint about my bad timing.  😞

Deffo game playing here lol by Dad.

I know the "womans work" idea well. Apologies if I've said this before. When he got divorced at age 58 and moved into flat he refused to get a washing machine. I gave up- his older sister did it for years. Then she got too old. Then he got brothers various partners to do it. He once or twice asked me "can u ask your wife to do it for me this week?" Stupidly I agreed but I did it and told him - he was flabbergasted that me, a man, had done the washing. Now I just say NO. Brothers new wife does it now - crack on.

We've had a 5 mile travel rule here in wales and rumour is its being relaxed this weekend. Dad lives 20+ miles away...
Dad, who previously swears he doesnt understand the rules in on top of this one.

Already told me what time I need to get there by on sunday, what food he needs me to bring from the supermarket etc etc. Hes decided he wants to go for a ride in the car and I've told him no. Thats not allowed yet hes not happy.

Of course, hes completely disregarded the fact that my wifes mum lives 15 miles away so she might be wanting to see her, so it will take planning, because our 7 year old can't stay home alone so one of us needs to be home on sunday.

As usual with Dad, he takes priority and no-one else matters. Its going to be a tough few weeks.

Just because it's now allowed, doesn't mean that you do have to do it. The way he talks to you is like when the police 'kettle' demonstrators into a small enclosed space so they can control them. :yeahthat: They then often  accuse them of rioting when they just wanted their own space back.
On that phone call or any similar ones where he's demanding/ dictating, you could just say you will let him know what your weekend plans are in a day or two, then find a reason to end the call.
Just really shutting that exaggerated sense of entitlement down, is what you are aiming for.

Dont forget you are in control.

He is not to you like the police are to citizens because he has no power to do anything to you. He has no power to take any of your freedom away. He can bark orders all he wants but you dont have to obey him. You dont even have to listen to him.  :disappear:

As Woman Interrupted mentions "all he has is words".    :blahblahblah:

If you want to go on sunday then go. If you dont then tell him 'sorry its not going to work out after all, wife has to tend to her mother'.  :ninja:

Im sorry you have to experience this. I wish for you freedom from his toxicity as often as possible. Stay strong. You can succeed in your goals and boundaries. Look how far you have already come!

P123 - did he fall within the vulnerable category that allows him to get online shopping delivered?  I've just checked and sainsburys allow you to register on behalf of a vulnerable person to arrange online shopping.  Maybe other supermarkets do the same.  One less reason to manipulate you into visiting.

Well they didn't change the 5 mile rule much. July 6th....

Personally I think its crazy. Shops are re-opening, professional footballers can travel 200 miles to play but we can't drive 5 miles.

They did leave a chink saying you could visit for "compasionate reasons". Dad will have seen that on the news.

Quote from: Happypants on June 19, 2020, 03:28:36 AM
P123 - did he fall within the vulnerable category that allows him to get online shopping delivered?  I've just checked and sainsburys allow you to register on behalf of a vulnerable person to arrange online shopping.  Maybe other supermarkets do the same.  One less reason to manipulate you into visiting.

Well, I've been offering to sort home delivery shopping for years. He makes all sorts of excuses and it really annoys me.

He thinks if he hasn't got his "I've got no food in the house, you'll have to visit" card then I'll never visit. So he massively refuses to open pandoras box on that one. Hes not stupid. He likes to have things that he can toss into as bargaining chips to get his own way.

Really annoying he does this because its so obvious.

@p123: You could go the "it's home delivery or nothing" route. You really could. You hold all the cards here. Sure, he could turn down a delivery - and then it's nothing. You could just hang up, with no warning, every time he starts to moan about wanting something delivered, or get up and leave. He has zero leverage, he's the one who wants stuff from you, not the other way around. He can have a tantrum, but you don't have to listen to it. What is he going to do, throw another tantrum?

Quote from: nanotech on June 12, 2020, 08:20:09 PM
Yes that's true Blueberry Pancakes. They cope far better than they would have us believe.
It's just like my dad's bed changing routine. Younger sis offered to do it right after mum died, and has sometimes dropped hints that I should share it. Well I never offered it, so no.  :wacko:  :blink: I'm 30 odd miles away and she's 2miles away.
I did wonder if she felt obligated to fill mum's  shoes because it was seen by dad as 'women's work'.
Well, lockdown has proved what I suspected all along, that he was capable of doing this chore himself. He's been fine with the whole thing for a good three months now.
I think younger sis is sorry she started it. Perhaps this is her chance to wriggle out of it, once lockdown is over? 
P123. Told you I was keeping my calls to dad to weekly? He clearly doesn't think it's often enough.  :yeahthat:
When I ring, he's  taken to ignoring my calls, then not returning them. Then when I do get through, he immediately says he's busy, and  then puts the phone down for an age while he faffs about, or else insists on ringing me back later. I know he's making at least some of these excuses up, because the reason he gives me when he claims it's a bad time to ring, has sometimes changed to another reason by the end of the call( he forgets what he said in the first place!).
Every single time I say ' Hi dad', I get  'Ah um I was just about to....  it's a bad time. 😦 He doesn't even say ' Hi '. It's just straight into the complaint about my bad timing.  😞

Wow, this post is so validating! Because I had been wondering if I'm just imagining things. I broke NC recently with my dad right before the Covid stay at home orders. I was keeping calls to about every 3 weeks but sometimes I'd call every 2 weeks. If he called me weekly, I didn't answer cause I didn't want to be guilted into more contact than I was comfortable with. (Even though I regretted breaking NC, I thought I would try to see if a polite, superficial contact with no expectations would be possible.)

The last couple times he's been playing the same games as your dad. Pretending to be busy and getting off the phone quickly after superficial niceties and the last time he picked up and said he was out with friends, and I asked 'aren't you worried about the virus?' and he said 'he was on Zoom' and he was speaking in hushed tones. Then he said he would call me the next day and asked me what was a good time.  I just told him I'd call him back and said good bye.

Now he's never done this before, asked for a specific time. Also, why even pick up if you're on a Zoom call? Why not just call me back when you get off the call? And why do you have to call me the next day? Supposedly, you want more contact and you're miffed about every 2-3 weeks. The whole thing just seemed so orchestrated to make me feel some kind of way. Like he was too busy for me or I wasn't important enough. He's been covertly hostile with me since I broke NC. But this was the final straw and I was just so sick of all the mind games I had been free of for 5 years. So I haven't called him back since. I guess I had hoped that maybe the long period of NC would give him pause.

Dunno if its me who now assumes everyone, like Dad is trying some sort of angle, got MIL problems now.

Our offer or her staying 2 nights a week  like she did before lock down has extended to 3. She cleverly managed to invite herself the extra day. Now shes pushing and pushing for more. Shes OK but 2 night per week before was ENOUGH. We have no plans to allow "catchup" due to her being stuck home in lockdown.

Arrghhh! Surely I can't have a narc father and a narc MIL lol/

“Arrghhh! Surely I can't have a narc father and a narc MIL lol/“

(Laughs bitterly....)
Oh, I assure you p123, you can most definitely have both!
In my case it’s a unpdM and an unpdMIL, the former more covert/martyrish and the latter much more overt and bullying. Both are married to enablers.

And, when you think about it, it’s hardly surprising if our parents and our in laws have similar personalities, after all we ourselves often tend to get together with partners who come from similar dynamics/value systems.

Maybe your father and your MIL should get together!! ;)

Quote from: Pinkos on June 20, 2020, 11:49:46 AM

Quote from: nanotech on June 12, 2020, 08:20:09 PM
Yes that's true Blueberry Pancakes. They cope far better than they would have us believe.
It's just like my dad's bed changing routine. Younger sis offered to do it right after mum died, and has sometimes dropped hints that I should share it. Well I never offered it, so no.  :wacko:  :blink: I'm 30 odd miles away and she's 2miles away.
I did wonder if she felt obligated to fill mum's  shoes because it was seen by dad as 'women's work'.
Well, lockdown has proved what I suspected all along, that he was capable of doing this chore himself. He's been fine with the whole thing for a good three months now.
I think younger sis is sorry she started it. Perhaps this is her chance to wriggle out of it, once lockdown is over? 
P123. Told you I was keeping my calls to dad to weekly? He clearly doesn't think it's often enough.  :yeahthat:
When I ring, he's  taken to ignoring my calls, then not returning them. Then when I do get through, he immediately says he's busy, and  then puts the phone down for an age while he faffs about, or else insists on ringing me back later. I know he's making at least some of these excuses up, because the reason he gives me when he claims it's a bad time to ring, has sometimes changed to another reason by the end of the call( he forgets what he said in the first place!).
Every single time I say ' Hi dad', I get  'Ah um I was just about to....  it's a bad time. 😦 He doesn't even say ' Hi '. It's just straight into the complaint about my bad timing.  😞

Wow, this post is so validating! Because I had been wondering if I'm just imagining things. I broke NC recently with my dad right before the Covid stay at home orders. I was keeping calls to about every 3 weeks but sometimes I'd call every 2 weeks. If he called me weekly, I didn't answer cause I didn't want to be guilted into more contact than I was comfortable with. (Even though I regretted breaking NC, I thought I would try to see if a polite, superficial contact with no expectations would be possible.)

The last couple times he's been playing the same games as your dad. Pretending to be busy and getting off the phone quickly after superficial niceties and the last time he picked up and said he was out with friends, and I asked 'aren't you worried about the virus?' and he said 'he was on Zoom' and he was speaking in hushed tones. Then he said he would call me the next day and asked me what was a good time.  I just told him I'd call him back and said good bye.

Now he's never done this before, asked for a specific time. Also, why even pick up if you're on a Zoom call? Why not just call me back when you get off the call? And why do you have to call me the next day? Supposedly, you want more contact and you're miffed about every 2-3 weeks. The whole thing just seemed so orchestrated to make me feel some kind of way. Like he was too busy for me or I wasn't important enough. He's been covertly hostile with me since I broke NC. But this was the final straw and I was just so sick of all the mind games I had been free of for 5 years. So I haven't called him back since. I guess I had hoped that maybe the long period of NC would give him pause.

Yes it's just like P123 puts it - an eternal chess game. With my dad, I've found too if I begin to call him less, then when I do call, he's more reasonable.
He still tries now and again to lure me back. But once you know, how can you unknow?  The cake is baked.
Sometimes he will ring and say he can't remember when he last spoke to me. If he does that I don't rise to it. He doesn't irritate my guilt buttons any more because I recognise it as abuse that simply has to be medium -chilled.
When he says something like that to me I take it on as a topic of interest ( hmm when did I call?) and detach my emotions , then I don't dwell. I never JADE. I particularly NEVER explain myself to my dad.
Yes I'd love a normal father-daughter relationship, but I've ceased gaslighting myself and others on that one, and now I'm all the healthier for it.
I'd love to call him every day just to check he hasn't had a fall etc. He's old and lives alone. If I called every day he'd become abusive within a very short time indeed. It's a VLC of his own making.

Quote from: doglady on June 20, 2020, 11:27:49 PM
"Arrghhh! Surely I can't have a narc father and a narc MIL lol/"

(Laughs bitterly....)
Oh, I assure you p123, you can most definitely have both!
In my case it's a unpdM and an unpdMIL, the former more covert/martyrish and the latter much more overt and bullying. Both are married to enablers.

And, when you think about it, it's hardly surprising if our parents and our in laws have similar personalities, after all we ourselves often tend to get together with partners who come from similar dynamics/value systems.

Maybe your father and your MIL should get together!! ;)

Jeez imagine that.

I do keep threatening when she says she'll stay that she can share a bedroom with my dad then!

A classic last night.....

Brother has been doing the shopping for months now. To be fair, he lives a mile away and legally we cant drive more than 5 miles still in wales. He also lost his job so had plenty of time. I just knew he resented it.
So I visit dad for the first time last weekend (there is some allowance now to visit an elderly relative who needs help), did his shopping etc.

So speak to Dad yesterday. Please can I visit sunday because brother is working all weekend and his wife is. Complete rubbish.

A "new" job appeared out of the blue for brother a week ago. I think its made up. His wife sits at home most days doing nothing occasionally she paints peoples houses. Suddenly, they're both working ALL weekend. Oh but is lucky because I'm OK to visit now so I can "do my turn". There is no way in a million years they are both working.

Seen this about 10 times before with brother - he hates it that he think I don't "do my turn". Can guarantee hes not working at all this weekend but is doing this to try and force me.

And Dad - "need groceries". I was there THREE days ago. You don't need anything.

I'm so annoyed. I have plans for sunday as it was, I've got the kids to look after. I just hate when they play these stupid games to try and force me to do what they want.
Its just crazy. Of course, Dad will deny all knowledge that this is a trick but I do wonder if he knows the score.

REALLY REALLY think I'm not going to go. If I give in its going to open the floodgates for even more tricks from them.

Quote from: p123 on June 25, 2020, 02:55:31 AM
A classic last night.....

Brother has been doing the shopping for months now. To be fair, he lives a mile away and legally we cant drive more than 5 miles still in wales. He also lost his job so had plenty of time. I just knew he resented it.
So I visit dad for the first time last weekend (there is some allowance now to visit an elderly relative who needs help), did his shopping etc.

So speak to Dad yesterday. Please can I visit sunday because brother is working all weekend and his wife is. Complete rubbish.

A "new" job appeared out of the blue for brother a week ago. I think its made up. His wife sits at home most days doing nothing occasionally she paints peoples houses. Suddenly, they're both working ALL weekend. Oh but is lucky because I'm OK to visit now so I can "do my turn". There is no way in a million years they are both working.

Seen this about 10 times before with brother - he hates it that he think I don't "do my turn". Can guarantee hes not working at all this weekend but is doing this to try and force me.

And Dad - "need groceries". I was there THREE days ago. You don't need anything.

I'm so annoyed. I have plans for sunday as it was, I've got the kids to look after. I just hate when they play these stupid games to try and force me to do what they want.
Its just crazy. Of course, Dad will deny all knowledge that this is a trick but I do wonder if he knows the score.

REALLY REALLY think I'm not going to go. If I give in its going to open the floodgates for even more tricks from them

P123, He can always have a grocery 🚚 delivery.You have plans.
Your dad doesn't need you to go. You don't want to go.
So there's no wanting, and definitely no needing.
So have a lovely Sunday, with your kids, as planned!

Quote from: p123 on June 25, 2020, 02:55:31 AM
A classic last night.....

Brother has been doing the shopping for months now. To be fair, he lives a mile away and legally we cant drive more than 5 miles still in wales. He also lost his job so had plenty of time. I just knew he resented it.
So I visit dad for the first time last weekend (there is some allowance now to visit an elderly relative who needs help), did his shopping etc.

So speak to Dad yesterday. Please can I visit sunday because brother is working all weekend and his wife is. Complete rubbish.

A "new" job appeared out of the blue for brother a week ago. I think its made up. His wife sits at home most days doing nothing occasionally she paints peoples houses. Suddenly, they're both working ALL weekend. Oh but is lucky because I'm OK to visit now so I can "do my turn". There is no way in a million years they are both working.

Seen this about 10 times before with brother - he hates it that he think I don't "do my turn". Can guarantee hes not working at all this weekend but is doing this to try and force me.

And Dad - "need groceries". I was there THREE days ago. You don't need anything.

I'm so annoyed. I have plans for sunday as it was, I've got the kids to look after. I just hate when they play these stupid games to try and force me to do what they want.
Its just crazy. Of course, Dad will deny all knowledge that this is a trick but I do wonder if he knows the score.

REALLY REALLY think I'm not going to go. If I give in its going to open the floodgates for even more tricks from them.

Is it possible brother doesn't care whether you go or not but he just isnt going to go?

It sounds like you dad is the one demanding you go.

Your brother saying no and making an excuse isnt necessarily about you. imo

YOU are actually the only person who can force you to do it.

  I understand that you wouldnt be pestered by dad to come if brother was "doing his part" so it seems like this is trouble caused by brother but imo its just more of the same from your dad.

Good luck!

Quote from: nanotech on June 25, 2020, 06:20:29 PM

Quote from: p123 on June 25, 2020, 02:55:31 AM
A classic last night.....

Brother has been doing the shopping for months now. To be fair, he lives a mile away and legally we cant drive more than 5 miles still in wales. He also lost his job so had plenty of time. I just knew he resented it.
So I visit dad for the first time last weekend (there is some allowance now to visit an elderly relative who needs help), did his shopping etc.

So speak to Dad yesterday. Please can I visit sunday because brother is working all weekend and his wife is. Complete rubbish.

A "new" job appeared out of the blue for brother a week ago. I think its made up. His wife sits at home most days doing nothing occasionally she paints peoples houses. Suddenly, they're both working ALL weekend. Oh but is lucky because I'm OK to visit now so I can "do my turn". There is no way in a million years they are both working.

Seen this about 10 times before with brother - he hates it that he think I don't "do my turn". Can guarantee hes not working at all this weekend but is doing this to try and force me.

And Dad - "need groceries". I was there THREE days ago. You don't need anything.

I'm so annoyed. I have plans for sunday as it was, I've got the kids to look after. I just hate when they play these stupid games to try and force me to do what they want.
Its just crazy. Of course, Dad will deny all knowledge that this is a trick but I do wonder if he knows the score.

REALLY REALLY think I'm not going to go. If I give in its going to open the floodgates for even more tricks from them

P123, He can always have a grocery 🚚 delivery.You have plans.
Your dad doesn't need you to go. You don't want to go.
So there's no wanting, and definitely no needing.
So have a lovely Sunday, with your kids, as planned!

Exactly - how can you need shopping after 3 days?

He WANTS me to go of course thats just an excuse...

Quote from: PeanutButter on June 26, 2020, 12:49:11 AM

Quote from: p123 on June 25, 2020, 02:55:31 AM
A classic last night.....

Brother has been doing the shopping for months now. To be fair, he lives a mile away and legally we cant drive more than 5 miles still in wales. He also lost his job so had plenty of time. I just knew he resented it.
So I visit dad for the first time last weekend (there is some allowance now to visit an elderly relative who needs help), did his shopping etc.

So speak to Dad yesterday. Please can I visit sunday because brother is working all weekend and his wife is. Complete rubbish.

A "new" job appeared out of the blue for brother a week ago. I think its made up. His wife sits at home most days doing nothing occasionally she paints peoples houses. Suddenly, they're both working ALL weekend. Oh but is lucky because I'm OK to visit now so I can "do my turn". There is no way in a million years they are both working.

Seen this about 10 times before with brother - he hates it that he think I don't "do my turn". Can guarantee hes not working at all this weekend but is doing this to try and force me.

And Dad - "need groceries". I was there THREE days ago. You don't need anything.

I'm so annoyed. I have plans for sunday as it was, I've got the kids to look after. I just hate when they play these stupid games to try and force me to do what they want.
Its just crazy. Of course, Dad will deny all knowledge that this is a trick but I do wonder if he knows the score.

REALLY REALLY think I'm not going to go. If I give in its going to open the floodgates for even more tricks from them.

Is it possible brother doesn't care whether you go or not but he just isnt going to go?

It sounds like you dad is the one demanding you go.

Your brother saying no and making an excuse isnt necessarily about you. imo

YOU are actually the only person who can force you to do it.

  I understand that you wouldnt be pestered by dad to come if brother was "doing his part" so it seems like this is trouble caused by brother but imo its just more of the same from your dad.

Good luck!

Well, I had doubts that brothers new job a few weeks ago is actually real. Its probably not to be honest. Hes done this sort of thing before.
Also, I know he has a massive chip on his shoulder that he "does it all" and I need to do more.

Its two-fold I think. He gets out of this weekend, but he also thinks it puts pressure on me to step up.

What Dad actually said was:-
"I need a really big favour from you. I saw your brother. He apologised he can't come the weekend because they're both working. He said I should ask you to come. Thing is I really need shopping and I told him I'm, sure you'll come".

Obvious or what? Guilt trip = massive.

Dad I'm not 100% sure. My brother can do no wrong so he won't think theres anything fishy here at all. Does he realise they are both trying to trick me? I'm beginning to think that Dad can see me fighting back and knows damn well what hes doing. The words "really big favour" annoy me - there is no need to lay it on like that.

I'm not going. I intend to go one night next week because IT SUITS ME BETTER.

QuoteWell, I had doubts that brothers new job a few weeks ago is actually real. Its probably not to be honest. Hes done this sort of thing before.
Also, I know he has a massive chip on his shoulder that he "does it all" and I need to do more.
Its two-fold I think. He gets out of this weekend, but he also thinks it puts pressure on me to step up.
What Dad actually said was:-
"I need a really big favour from you. I saw your brother. He apologised he can't come the weekend because they're both working. He said I should ask you to come. Thing is I really need shopping and I told him I'm, sure you'll come".
Obvious or what? Guilt trip = massive.
Dad I'm not 100% sure. My brother can do no wrong so he won't think theres anything fishy here at all. Does he realise they are both trying to trick me? I'm beginning to think that Dad can see me fighting back and knows damn well what hes doing. The words "really big favour" annoy me - there is no need to lay it on like that.
I'm not going. I intend to go one night next week because IT SUITS ME BETTER.

I would defiantly agree that your gut (intuition) is telling the truth and your brother is fibbing.
You are recognising the guilt trips like a pro now.
Imo you are probably correct that your dad knows at the very least that brother is prone to fibbing but just won't admit it. A GC is a perfect clone of the pdF or pdM.
Im so glad you are not allowing them to manipulate you into this unplanned extra visit.
Good for you.

Quote from: PeanutButter on June 26, 2020, 08:09:02 AM

QuoteWell, I had doubts that brothers new job a few weeks ago is actually real. Its probably not to be honest. Hes done this sort of thing before.
Also, I know he has a massive chip on his shoulder that he "does it all" and I need to do more.
Its two-fold I think. He gets out of this weekend, but he also thinks it puts pressure on me to step up.
What Dad actually said was:-
"I need a really big favour from you. I saw your brother. He apologised he can't come the weekend because they're both working. He said I should ask you to come. Thing is I really need shopping and I told him I'm, sure you'll come".
Obvious or what? Guilt trip = massive.
Dad I'm not 100% sure. My brother can do no wrong so he won't think theres anything fishy here at all. Does he realise they are both trying to trick me? I'm beginning to think that Dad can see me fighting back and knows damn well what hes doing. The words "really big favour" annoy me - there is no need to lay it on like that.
I'm not going. I intend to go one night next week because IT SUITS ME BETTER.

I would defiantly agree that your gut (intuition) is telling the truth and your brother is fibbing.
You are recognising the guilt trips like a pro now.
Imo you are probably correct that your dad knows at the very least that brother is prone to fibbing but just won't admit it. A GC is a perfect clone of the pdF or pdM.
Im so glad you are not allowing them to manipulate you into this unplanned extra visit.
Good for you.

Oh in the past I've pointed out blatant lies that my brother has told. Give him proof the lot. All he does is change the subject. He does not want to believe that son #2 is not perfect.

He plays dull with things like this too. As if he doesnt know whats going on. Theres more to it I know. He will try something via my brother then when it doesnt work hes like "oh thats ok it didnt matter" its just WAY TOO obvious sometimes.

The way this has worked out, how its been worded is all too well worked out.... Dad knows that, in the past, "oh do me a big favour" and "I've got no shopping" has worked.
He hasn;t helped himself with saying he needs shopping when I went last weekend and filled his freezer, fridge and cupboard up. Its just SOOOO obvious.

Im going to phone him sunday am and say sorry got to work....

I know from previous experience hes gonna say something like "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, what am I going to do?". He did this once when I'd been in work for like 24 hours and I thought at the time "oh thanks for that I feel great now". He still does it.  Its not the end of the world if I dont go.

Although you may have seen the thread once. I was working didnt know what time I'd get there but I did go. As the call ended I heard him say "oh thank you God, thank you hes coming". That was well freaky. It sort of made me wonder how obsessed he is that I should visit.

I mean surely a normal parent, in this sort of sitaution would say "oh thats ok I understand, no worries" even if they were a little disappointed.

Quote from: p123 on June 26, 2020, 10:58:39 AM
Im going to phone him sunday am and say sorry got to work....

I know from previous experience hes gonna say something like "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, what am I going to do?". He did this once when I'd been in work for like 24 hours and I thought at the time "oh thanks for that I feel great now". He still does it.  Its not the end of the world if I dont go.

Although you may have seen the thread once. I was working didnt know what time I'd get there but I did go. As the call ended I heard him say "oh thank you God, thank you hes coming". That was well freaky. It sort of made me wonder how obsessed he is that I should visit.

I mean surely a normal parent, in this sort of sitaution would say "oh thats ok I understand, no worries" even if they were a little disappointed.

Yes i remember that one.
It is confusing/disturbing that he feels so soooooo strongly about needing you to come isnt it? Maybe he is getting worse with age? :Idunno:
Im glad you dont give up your plans.
Calling him at the last minute sounds like a good way to handle it :bigwink:

QuoteOh in the past I've pointed out blatant lies that my brother has told. Give him proof the lot. All he does is change the subject. He does not want to believe that son #2 is not perfect.

He plays dull with things like this too. As if he doesnt know whats going on. Theres more to it I know. He will try something via my brother then when it doesnt work hes like "oh thats ok it didnt matter" its just WAY TOO obvious sometimes.

The way this has worked out, how its been worded is all too well worked out.... Dad knows that, in the past, "oh do me a big favour" and "I've got no shopping" has worked.
He hasn;t helped himself with saying he needs shopping when I went last weekend and filled his freezer, fridge and cupboard up. Its just SOOOO obvious.

Yeh you would expect at least some curiosity. Like you saying "i seen brother out yesterday I guess he didnt go out of town after all" your dad should respond " oh? No kidding? Where did you see him at? I wonder why he isnt out of town?"  BUT instead he says "hum you must be seeing things" then changes the subject :stars: he knows something you dont in that scenario imo

If it was me I would rather someone just be straght up with me. I get very angry too when I feel like someone is trying to BS me. Just give it to me straight and Im more likely to cooperate.

The thing is, when he changes the subject after you have caught an obvious lie...you can't let it drop.  We all have parents who think they can easily snow us.  And he will continue to do this until you make it so unpleasant for him. Next time he pulls this, don't let it slide.  He harps on you to visit...well you harp on him to admit your brother lied. 

Quote from: lkdrymom on June 27, 2020, 12:05:29 PM
The thing is, when he changes the subject after you have caught an obvious lie...you can't let it drop.  We all have parents who think they can easily snow us.  And he will continue to do this until you make it so unpleasant for him. Next time he pulls this, don't let it slide.  He harps on you to visit...well you harp on him to admit your brother lied.

In the past, I've showed him a pic on my phone in the pub when hes supposedly working. Dad looks at it mumbles something and changes the subject. About 10 times this is now.
Last year or so, hes noticed somethings wrong with my brother and I. He must know. I dont say anything to Dad but I'm sure brother has.

At the beginning, he'd get involved and say "can't you just leave it with him and not argue". At the time I agreed to do so I left it. Only for him to come back a month later with more abuse about something. Dad again tried to be peacemaker. I said OK I will let it go. Again the same.

I pointed out to Dad that OK I'm leaving it here, we'll agree to disagree, but he needs to drop this issue hes got, I'm not going to up with him contacting me like this all the time. In the end, I did block him because I got bored with it all and he wasn't letting up. Guess whos fault it was? Yep mine for not "letting it go".

Definately sounds like you D is scapegoating you!

Well I did it. I phoned him and said I can't make it today but I'll see you one night in the week.

He tried it all. Went from OK to "I've been so ill I'm calling the doctor out". I asked him symptoms - all the usual signs of madeupitis again. Says hes going to pack a bag and he'll ring me from the hospital tomorrow if he gets admitted because he thinks he will. Not going to be fun for that doctor tomorrow!

Oh and FIVE times I had "I'm SO disappointed you're not coming". Guilt trip or what?
Ashamed at the lengths he will go to get what he wants - thats all it is.

I really don't care that he thinks hes ill. I guess he might be. Past experience has shown chances are about 20 to 1 on that though. So what? Cry wolf and this is what happens.

Heres another one - "if the doctor gives me a prescription, can you come and collect it from the pharmacy?" 25 miles away! I said no but I'd speak to the GP and/or pharmacist and get it delivered or something maybe. Even if theres a charge. Or I'll arrange it to be be delivered to pharmacy near me and I'll collect it and bring it tuesday or something. No don't want to do that - dont worry then if you can;t do it.

Im working monday - I cant just swan off for hours doing this. I could scream at the moment.....

 :grouphug:

P123 Im so sorry!
He is really digging his heels in isnt he? If he was sick then why did he want you to visit? What if its covid 19 and he exposed you? Seems odd he only mentioned after you told him you weren't coming. It definately sounds like madepitis to me.
Ive heard it done plenty of times by grown adults who should know better. He is the one who should be ashamed not you! You have done nothing wrong! He is manipulating and very possibly lieing to you. If he isnt lieing then he was trying to expose you to his illness without your knowledge.
I know that it is hard to 'manage' this kind of interaction while keeping your cool and standing your ground.
Congratulations on that almost impossible feat! :applause:
Now enjoy your day with your family! You deserve it.

Quote from: PeanutButter on June 28, 2020, 07:47:35 AM
:grouphug:

P123 Im so sorry!
He is really digging his heels in isnt he? If he was sick then why did he want you to visit? What if its covid 19 and he exposed you? Seems odd he only mentioned after you told him you weren't coming. It definately sounds like madepitis to me.
Ive heard it done plenty of times by grown adults who should know better. He is the one who should be ashamed not you! You have done nothing wrong! He is manipulating and very possibly lieing to you. If he isnt lieing then he was trying to expose you to his illness without your knowledge.
I know that it is hard to 'manage' this kind of interaction while keeping your cool and standing your ground.
Congratulations on that almost impossible feat! :applause:
Now enjoy your day with your family! You deserve it.

Thanks PB. Had it so many times this madeupitis......

In the past, he got into a habit of phoning for an emergency ambulance - they stopped coming. His GP at one point stopped coming and the senior partner phoned him and basically told him to cut it out.
Hes also had TWO fake hospital admissions. Both times he had a cold and GP refused to admit him then he "fell" and banged his head and got admitted. Both times the hospital were confused about how exactly he had a wound like that. Self inflicted. I've tried speaking to his GP to point out what hes doing, and just look at the times he calls them, and they do nothing.

99% sure its a lie or hes making a mountain out of a molehill. Thats normal too. Either way it suits him not to be ill because he thinks it makes me feel guilty.
Trouble is the GP will come tomorrow and sometimes they'll say you're fine sometimes they'll give him antibiotics just to shut him up. It he gets that, it validates that he must be REALLY ill.

Do you know what though his behaviour is getting so bad recently that I just don't care or don't want to speak to him.

QuoteIn the past, he got into a habit of phoning for an emergency ambulance - they stopped coming. His GP at one point stopped coming and the senior partner phoned him and basically told him to cut it out.
Hes also had TWO fake hospital admissions. Both times he had a cold and GP refused to admit him then he "fell" and banged his head and got admitted. Both times the hospital were confused about how exactly he had a wound like that. Self inflicted. I've tried speaking to his GP to point out what hes doing, and just look at the times he calls them, and they do nothing.

:aaauuugh:  wow actually thats a level above what ive witnessed personally

Ive seen someone peeking out their door watching for me to walk by who then layed down on the floor and started yelling that they had fallen and couldnt get up. But no actual injuries just pretend ones.

QuoteEither way it suits him not to be ill because he thinks it makes me feel guilty..  his behaviour is getting so bad recently that I just don't care or don't want to speak to him .

You have the all power now that you see it for what it is. Its disrespectful to you and your foc. IMO Its not loving and quite selfish too ime.

Its so hard for us nons to wrap our heads around that pds cant STOP and at least try to relate differently since we are onto them and their trickery isnt gonna ever budge us again.

Only two fake hospital admittances....amateur!  My father has scores of them. Got to the point he called the ambulance so many times the local police were on first name basis.

Quote from: PeanutButter on June 28, 2020, 10:20:33 AM

QuoteIn the past, he got into a habit of phoning for an emergency ambulance - they stopped coming. His GP at one point stopped coming and the senior partner phoned him and basically told him to cut it out.
Hes also had TWO fake hospital admissions. Both times he had a cold and GP refused to admit him then he "fell" and banged his head and got admitted. Both times the hospital were confused about how exactly he had a wound like that. Self inflicted. I've tried speaking to his GP to point out what hes doing, and just look at the times he calls them, and they do nothing.

:aaauuugh:  wow actually thats a level above what ive witnessed personally

Ive seen someone peeking out their door watching for me to walk by who then layed down on the floor and started yelling that they had fallen and couldnt get up. But no actual injuries just pretend ones.

QuoteEither way it suits him not to be ill because he thinks it makes me feel guilty..  his behaviour is getting so bad recently that I just don't care or don't want to speak to him .

You have the all power now that you see it for what it is. Its disrespectful to you and your foc. IMO Its not loving and quite selfish too ime.

Its so hard for us nons to wrap our heads around that pds cant STOP and at least try to relate differently since we are onto them and their trickery isnt gonna ever budge us again.

Yes hes proven many times that he will push it as far as he needs to to get what he wants. Its surprises me sometimes.

Quote from: lkdrymom on June 28, 2020, 01:00:58 PM
Only two fake hospital admittances....amateur!  My father has scores of them. Got to the point he called the ambulance so many times the local police were on first name basis.

Remind me you're not in the uk like me?

Trouble is here its all free. GPs, ambulances etc etc. So you can call as many times as you like. Part of the problem is that the services are so disjointed. The Ambulance people won't know that he constantly phones the GP. Half the time the GP doesnt know him and know how he is. Its only luck that they notice some of the time.

And, of course, everyone is scared to be sued. So they take it seriously mostly. It takes a brave person to say "no we're not coming any more".  They have done in the past.

I can't imagine him doing it loads and loads of times. Twice was bad enough! It was so stressful. I had the hospital calling me, first off to tell me he had been admitted. I'll be honest, after about 5 seconds I thought "hes done it again" because he'd been going on for days about how the 2-3 doctors who'd seen him didnt have a clue and how he was so ill he had to be in hospital.

A few hours later they did ask me if he had dementia (no he hasnt) because he'd told two different stories both of which were inconsistent with the wound. I thought at the time, great, they might do something but, alas, put up with him for a few days then sent him home.

The trips to the hospital with my grandmother.

"I'm dying!!!!!!!!"
"No one is paying attention to me!"
"When is someone going to do something for me?"
"When am I getting a room?" (Hoping to be admitted so she could be waited on in a better room.)
"No one cares about me!"
"Why aren't there more people here?" (Laying in bed like a queen wanting an audience, the more the better. Always asking if I told everyone she's there, hoping she would get visitors to offer sympathy and pity aka ATTENTION.)

Medical tests, hours go by, waiting.

Nothing wrong.

It got to a point where I was embarrassed for her. Also due to her dementia she got so hateful and vile I couldn't even sit in the exam room with her. Had to wait out in the hallway. Sometimes in tears. Alone usually. Waiting for them to release her so I could bring her home and do it all again a few weeks later.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Narcissists, and especially those with borderline personality mixed in, will create chaos and drama and yes, they could injure themselves to get attention. Some borderlines go too far by mistake and could accidentally commit suicide. It's truly a sickness. Towards the end at home I think she was self harming to get a trip to the hospital for attention. It made my skin crawl and makes me ill thinking about it. How much was dementia and how much was her regular manipulation,  I'll never know. She fell in the garage. Why she was out there I don't know, I assume emptying the trash. I felt it coming though. When she felt she wasn't getting enough attention, she would whine incessantly and I'd think well she's planning something, getting desperate. She did hit her head. Blood on the garage floor and outside. I had to clean it up. Only a small cut on her head, no stitches required, looked worse than it was. But I'll never forget cleaning up her blood on the garage floor, thinking to myself, this isn't normal, if she did this on purpose this woman truly is sick. After we got home from the ER, she kept yelling at me, pointing to the cut on her head, screaming

"Do you see that? Do you? Look at my head! Do you see it? Do you see what I did?"

I'll never know if it was a true fall or if she did it on purpose. One time in hospital she got tired of waiting, wasn't happy with the service as usual, and said to me "why did I put myself here?" I think I said " I don't know. Why did you?"

Whether it was intentional for attention or whether it was an actual fall, the end result is the same. If someone is getting frequent injuries and hospital stays they probably shouldn't be living at home anymore. I told them she was a danger to herself and I believe she was at that point. Of course the possible suicide attempt is what got that ball rolling with the dementia diagnosis.

If their usually rude and selfish behavior becomes outrageously unbearable, and verbal abuse starts, to the point where you literally can't be around the person without crying,  and you find yourself at the hospital with him/her way too often, have them tested for dementia.

Quote from: Adrianna on July 01, 2020, 07:46:30 PM
The trips to the hospital with my grandmother.

"I'm dying!!!!!!!!"
"No one is paying attention to me!"
"When is someone going to do something for me?"
"When am I getting a room?" (Hoping to be admitted so she could be waited on in a better room.)
"No one cares about me!"
"Why aren't there more people here?" (Laying in bed like a queen wanting an audience, the more the better. Always asking if I told everyone she's there, hoping she would get visitors to offer sympathy and pity aka ATTENTION.)

Medical tests, hours go by, waiting.

Nothing wrong.

It got to a point where I was embarrassed for her. Also due to her dementia she got so hateful and vile I couldn't even sit in the exam room with her. Had to wait out in the hallway. Sometimes in tears. Alone usually. Waiting for them to release her so I could bring her home and do it all again a few weeks later.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Narcissists, and especially those with borderline personality mixed in, will create chaos and drama and yes, they could injure themselves to get attention. Some borderlines go too far by mistake and could accidentally commit suicide. It's truly a sickness. Towards the end at home I think she was self harming to get a trip to the hospital for attention. It made my skin crawl and makes me ill thinking about it. How much was dementia and how much was her regular manipulation,  I'll never know. She fell in the garage. Why she was out there I don't know, I assume emptying the trash. I felt it coming though. When she felt she wasn't getting enough attention, she would whine incessantly and I'd think well she's planning something, getting desperate. She did hit her head. Blood on the garage floor and outside. I had to clean it up. Only a small cut on her head, no stitches required, looked worse than it was. But I'll never forget cleaning up her blood on the garage floor, thinking to myself, this isn't normal, if she did this on purpose this woman truly is sick. After we got home from the ER, she kept yelling at me, pointing to the cut on her head, screaming

"Do you see that? Do you? Look at my head! Do you see it? Do you see what I did?"

I'll never know if it was a true fall or if she did it on purpose. One time in hospital she got tired of waiting, wasn't happy with the service as usual, and said to me "why did I put myself here?" I think I said " I don't know. Why did you?"

Whether it was intentional for attention or whether it was an actual fall, the end result is the same. If someone is getting frequent injuries and hospital stays they probably shouldn't be living at home anymore. I told them she was a danger to herself and I believe she was at that point. Of course the possible suicide attempt is what got that ball rolling with the dementia diagnosis.

If their usually rude and selfish behavior becomes outrageously unbearable, and verbal abuse starts, to the point where you literally can't be around the person without crying,  and you find yourself at the hospital with him/her way too often, have them tested for dementia.

Oh wow. Its so tough when they do that isn't it? Exactly like my Dad. Its just I'm at the stage of not being able to get anyone else to realise whats going on.

Took me a while to realise what he was doing though.
Started out he'd call the ambulance. They'd come out and pretty much EVERY time take him to hospital. 5 Hours later he'd be home.
Then they started to not take him to hospital.
Then the last time, the ambulance didnt arrive for 8 hours.

At this point, knowing that they're always mega cautious with old people - after all they don't want to get sued I just knew that they were 100% sure there was nothing wrong with him. They wouldnt risk sending an ambulance hours later if there was any chance of it being urgent,

It's quite sad because you never know when there really could be something wrong with him because he's faked it for so many times.

She would whine and say she's dying, then I'd call an ambulance, they would come and she'd argue with them about not wanting to go. However she'd be more than happy for me to drive her to the hospital. It's all a sick game. One time she called my son (which was unusual as usually I'm the one she would boss around) saying she's dying. He was very upset since she was 96 and he wasn't able to run over there (he had someone coming to the house in a few minutes). He called me upset and I said I'm sure she's not dying, and I will handle. I went over, she claimed to be dying from heat stroke (it was 68 degrees in the house with air conditioning on). She whined and wanted me to drive her to the ER. I said no, we will call the ambulance and they will check you out. She was furious. Her narcissistic fuel was watching others do things for her, bonus if you're related, so she wanted ME to drive her to hospital myself, watch me wait for hours while she was waited on, then drive her home to listen to her complain that I don't do enough for her. I refused. Ambulance came, checked vitals, she was fine. Waste of their time. No trip to hospital. I told her don't you ever call my son claiming to be dying if you aren't. You really upset him. The games they play are ridiculous and they can take good hearted kind people and turn them resentful.

Quote from: Adrianna on July 02, 2020, 05:57:05 AM
It's quite sad because you never know when there really could be something wrong with him because he's faked it for so many times.

She would whine and say she's dying, then I'd call an ambulance, they would come and she'd argue with them about not wanting to go. However she'd be more than happy for me to drive her to the hospital. It's all a sick game. One time she called my son (which was unusual as usually I'm the one she would boss around) saying she's dying. He was very upset since she was 96 and he wasn't able to run over there (he had someone coming to the house in a few minutes). He called me upset and I said I'm sure she's not dying, and I will handle. I went over, she claimed to be dying from heat stroke (it was 68 degrees in the house with air conditioning on). She whined and wanted me to drive her to the ER. I said no, we will call the ambulance and they will check you out. She was furious. Her narcissistic fuel was watching others do things for her, bonus if you're related, so she wanted ME to drive her to hospital myself, watch me wait for hours while she was waited on, then drive her home to listen to her complain that I don't do enough for her. I refused. Ambulance came, checked vitals, she was fine. Waste of their time. No trip to hospital. I told her don't you ever call my son claiming to be dying if you aren't. You really upset him. The games they play are ridiculous and they can take good hearted kind people and turn them resentful.

Oh thats just awful way to behave!

I can relate to this "you and you only" thing. I get it all the time for everything. Even when I present a perfectly sensible alternative that makes everyones life easier it always boils down to "no I don't want to do it that way".

As you said, its not so much they want something its they want to see someone else doing something for them. I honestly think my Dad gets a warm glow when hes able to get me to do something - the harder the better.

Sorry if you've heard the wheelchair story before.....

I'd taken dad out one weekend and stupidly, left his wheelchair in the car. So he calls me - can you pop in one night and bring it back because I'm going out Friday and your uncle (whos 3 years younger than dad) is taking me out. Now I work some distance from Dad so it was mega hassle and with childcare I didnt really have a free evening.
So I said look its mega hassle, only time I can do it is ill have to take some time out of work friday lunchtime, so if you definitely need it. (Its 45 mins+ drive each way). Answer YES I cant go out otherwise.

Friday comes. I do "on call/standby". 3am or something I'm called into the office. By 11am Im tired, still mega busy. So I call Dad, do you REALLY still need that wheelchair, I'm mega busy, tired etc. Answer YES I DO.
OK, so I take 2 hours when I'd rather be going home and take the wheelchair.

Speak to him a few days later - How did you're trip go? Answer - Do you know what, I didn't like to ask your uncle to push me around in the wheelchair so we didnt take it after all.....

You can only imagine how annoyed I was!!!! Just proved the act of getting me to do something difficult for him was the issue here. I wonder whether he ever planned to use the wheelchair and all he wanted to do was test my loyalty.

Lets just say I learned a valuable lesson after that incident.

Yes I remember that story and it's a good example of them just wanting you to serve them. If you're highly inconvenienced even better!

In terms of narcissism, they get fuel from this. In their minds, getting you to jump through hoops shows that you care. It means they matter. Your dad probably does get a warm feeling watching you inconvenienced on his behalf. It sounds sick because it is. There is no regard for you, your time, your job, your family. It's all for his needs. He can't see beyond himself. Problem is no amount of care is ever enough to fill that black hole inside of them. As you know you could perform as required and you're only as good as the last thing you did for him.

I was outraged, angry, bewildered and shocked FOR YEARS at the utter and complete lack of concern for me shown by my grandmother and my father also. In their minds and your dad's too, we are here for one thing, to serve. Once that sinks in it's easier to say NO.

Also the fact that they are disordered doesn't give them a free pass to abuse people. It doesn't make it ok. It helps understand WHY they do it, but it doesn't mean we have to play along with their twisted world view where you don't matter except for what you can do for them.

Quote from: p123 on July 02, 2020, 05:14:07 AM

Quote from: Adrianna on July 01, 2020, 07:46:30 PM
The trips to the hospital with my grandmother.

"I'm dying!!!!!!!!"
"No one is paying attention to me!"
"When is someone going to do something for me?"
"When am I getting a room?" (Hoping to be admitted so she could be waited on in a better room.)
"No one cares about me!"
"Why aren't there more people here?" (Laying in bed like a queen wanting an audience, the more the better. Always asking if I told everyone she's there, hoping she would get visitors to offer sympathy and pity aka ATTENTION.)

Medical tests, hours go by, waiting.

Nothing wrong.

It got to a point where I was embarrassed for her. Also due to her dementia she got so hateful and vile I couldn't even sit in the exam room with her. Had to wait out in the hallway. Sometimes in tears. Alone usually. Waiting for them to release her so I could bring her home and do it all again a few weeks later.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Narcissists, and especially those with borderline personality mixed in, will create chaos and drama and yes, they could injure themselves to get attention. Some borderlines go too far by mistake and could accidentally commit suicide. It's truly a sickness. Towards the end at home I think she was self harming to get a trip to the hospital for attention. It made my skin crawl and makes me ill thinking about it. How much was dementia and how much was her regular manipulation,  I'll never know. She fell in the garage. Why she was out there I don't know, I assume emptying the trash. I felt it coming though. When she felt she wasn't getting enough attention, she would whine incessantly and I'd think well she's planning something, getting desperate. She did hit her head. Blood on the garage floor and outside. I had to clean it up. Only a small cut on her head, no stitches required, looked worse than it was. But I'll never forget cleaning up her blood on the garage floor, thinking to myself, this isn't normal, if she did this on purpose this woman truly is sick. After we got home from the ER, she kept yelling at me, pointing to the cut on her head, screaming

"Do you see that? Do you? Look at my head! Do you see it? Do you see what I did?"

I'll never know if it was a true fall or if she did it on purpose. One time in hospital she got tired of waiting, wasn't happy with the service as usual, and said to me "why did I put myself here?" I think I said " I don't know. Why did you?"

Whether it was intentional for attention or whether it was an actual fall, the end result is the same. If someone is getting frequent injuries and hospital stays they probably shouldn't be living at home anymore. I told them she was a danger to herself and I believe she was at that point. Of course the possible suicide attempt is what got that ball rolling with the dementia diagnosis.

If their usually rude and selfish behavior becomes outrageously unbearable, and verbal abuse starts, to the point where you literally can't be around the person without crying,  and you find yourself at the hospital with him/her way too often, have them tested for dementia.

Oh wow. Its so tough when they do that isn't it? Exactly like my Dad. Its just I'm at the stage of not being able to get anyone else to realise whats going on.

Took me a while to realise what he was doing though.
Started out he'd call the ambulance. They'd come out and pretty much EVERY time take him to hospital. 5 Hours later he'd be home.
Then they started to not take him to hospital.
Then the last time, the ambulance didnt arrive for 8 hours.

At this point, knowing that they're always mega cautious with old people - after all they don't want to get sued I just knew that they were 100% sure there was nothing wrong with him. They wouldnt risk sending an ambulance hours later if there was any chance of it being urgent,

This ambulance behaviour is exactly how my dad is. One time he was so insistent that they keep him in, that he stayed there all night on a trolley bed in a cubicle. Then of course it was complete victim mode about that experience.
' I've not slept a wink'
'I've had to ASK for a pillow!'
' no one came to look at me for hours'
( they did. Even though they'd asked him to go home).
He's worse when a big family event happens, particularly a birth or a death.
He loves playing up on funeral days.
He's not yet taken to injuring himself, but I reckon it's on the to do list.  :aaauuugh:
Nightmare.

Funeral days - my grandmother made a big drama festival over my mother's (her daughter in law) funeral. She was going, she wasn't going, she was going again, changed her mind, etc. back and forth. Ended up not going which I was grateful for, as I assume she would have caused a scene. Later told me I blamed her for my mothers death which is absurd. Had nothing to do with her. Then again in their minds it's all about them.

My father didn't want to go to my mothers's funeral, his wife. Originally agreed to have a service for her, but later fought me on having the service. Funeral parlor was going to start charging him storage fees for the ashes. I finally got him to agree to let me bury my mother's ashes, after a lot of arguing, putting the poor funeral director in the middle of the dynamic. Day before her funeral surprise he's in the hospital. Was admitted for a few days. Claimed he had chest pains. He of course Didn't go to the funeral but he sure was the topic of the day, everyone asking about him, visiting him, etc. He couldn't even let her have that day, always about him. I suppose there's a 1% chance it was not planned but hard to think that given the nature of narcissism. I know how they operate now.

Quote from: p123 on June 28, 2020, 06:18:27 PM

Quote from: lkdrymom on June 28, 2020, 01:00:58 PM
Only two fake hospital admittances....amateur!  My father has scores of them. Got to the point he called the ambulance so many times the local police were on first name basis.

Remind me you're not in the uk like me?

Trouble is here its all free. GPs, ambulances etc etc. So you can call as many times as you like. Part of the problem is that the services are so disjointed. The Ambulance people won't know that he constantly phones the GP. Half the time the GP doesnt know him and know how he is. Its only luck that they notice some of the time.

And, of course, everyone is scared to be sued. So they take it seriously mostly. It takes a brave person to say "no we're not coming any more".  They have done in the past.

I can't imagine him doing it loads and loads of times. Twice was bad enough! It was so stressful. I had the hospital calling me, first off to tell me he had been admitted. I'll be honest, after about 5 seconds I thought "hes done it again" because he'd been going on for days about how the 2-3 doctors who'd seen him didnt have a clue and how he was so ill he had to be in hospital.

A few hours later they did ask me if he had dementia (no he hasnt) because he'd told two different stories both of which were inconsistent with the wound. I thought at the time, great, they might do something but, alas, put up with him for a few days then sent him home.

No I am in NJ. The police were pretty pissed about him always calling 911.  He went to the ER so often it got to the point if I was at work I would pop out and drop him at the entrance.  I stopped going in completely as I knew it was pure BS....told him I'd be back at the end of the workday to pick him up.  It was like freaking 'daycamp' for him.  Like Adrianna's grandmother he loves to be fussed over at the hospital.  My idea of fun is lying on the beach in Bermuda, his idea of fun is lying in a hospital bed at the medical center.

Quote from: Adrianna on July 04, 2020, 05:01:55 PM
Funeral days - my grandmother made a big drama festival over my mother's (her daughter in law) funeral. She was going, she wasn't going, she was going again, changed her mind, etc. back and forth. Ended up not going which I was grateful for, as I assume she would have caused a scene. Later told me I blamed her for my mothers death which is absurd. Had nothing to do with her. Then again in their minds it's all about them.

My father didn't want to go to my mothers's funeral, his wife. Originally agreed to have a service for her, but later fought me on having the service. Funeral parlor was going to start charging him storage fees for the ashes. I finally got him to agree to let me bury my mother's ashes, after a lot of arguing, putting the poor funeral director in the middle of the dynamic. Day before her funeral surprise he's in the hospital. Was admitted for a few days. Claimed he had chest pains. He of course Didn't go to the funeral but he sure was the topic of the day, everyone asking about him, visiting him, etc. He couldn't even let her have that day, always about him. I suppose there's a 1% chance it was not planned but hard to think that given the nature of narcissism. I know how they operate now.

This is just how my dad is. Two funerals in one year and he played up at both.
The first one wasn't local to us, we had to travel on the train and stay in a hotel ( of his choosing), trail all around his old haunts ( after a delayed and very long train journey, then have a meal in the hotel where he knocked back wine and moaned when I said I was going to my room at 9 pm.
I got up to a fuming face and he said he'd had no sleep, and was ill. I told him to go and rest. He ass as  Rude  to everyone in the breakfast room including me of course. But he did eat.
Instead of resting while I got ready for the funeral he decided to hike as fast as he could round the hotel ' for some fresh air.' It was a miserable, drizzly day. I think he gave himself a stitch. He then decided that stitch was a heart attack. He told me I had to call an ambulance. I checked symptoms and watched him. I knew it wasn't. I knew he was faking it. Long story short I got him to the crem as I thought once there, he'd drop it.
He didn't drop it! He told everyone there that he was ill.
Once in the taxi on the way to the crem, he  had actually asked the driver to go the long way round, because he wanted to sightsee, and by the way he thought he was dying!
( watch what they do rather than what they say. Who wants to go travel the scenic route during a heart attack?)
Once at the crem after stating his BS, he then refused an ambulance ( because he knows you don't necessarily get taken in). Everyone was now sad AND worried about dad. He'd got what he wanted. 
He managed to get through the service because I practically frogmarched him in! Also he's scared of my brother, ( GC) who didn't want to miss the service for  PD appearance reasons.
Afterwards he continued with it, and there was a  flurry of activity to get him to an unknown hospital. UnNPD brother had turned up last minute and he had a car, so he had to take him.
I told them I was staying at the Wake. I'll never forget their faces!
Later I had to then get myself to the hospital,  home later on my own. I spent a small fortune on taxis, and on the train and then picking up my car, from dad's home town,  I found myself in several risky situations.
He tried it again a few months later but I was ready for him. Nipped that attempt the bud with the first waif phonecall. He, just before the hearse arrived, he  tried to complain about me to my husband. That go nowhere. Then he sulked and whinged. But I didn't sit with him so that was all fine!  He couldn't quite bring himself to have a go at me at the funeral wake, publicly, and  rIsk ruining  his  image to the extended  family.
For the first time, I noticed how my FOO  hardly mingled or chatted with our extended family. There have been riffs and nastiness in the past,  and it was always blamed on them, not us.
Hmmmmm.  My lot  sat huddled in a corner for most of the afternoon. Me and my FOC mingled, as did everyone else.
Plus at the wake attended on my own  months before, the extended family  were lovely with me.
I did go to the hospital afterwards - wow their   stoneyfaces greeted me! They were both fuming with me for staying at the wake!
Ah well.....!
Sorry to go on a bit. It's not my thread. P123  I know you have these issues too.
No. More. Funerals. With. Dad.
We. Can't. Take.Them.Seriously.

This observation;
' He couldn't even let her have that day.'
Exactly.

No thats cool nano.... Its nice to hear you're story too.

That is just awful but, I guess like a lot of us, its so familiar......

I've had this multiple times with the old "cant breathe/chest pains" thing. Lets just say hes never going to win an oscar for his acting - its awful.
I remember my wife once (shes a nurse) saw him during his act. Within literally 1 seconds she said "hes faking it".

Quote from: p123 on July 07, 2020, 04:54:43 AM
No thats cool nano.... Its nice to hear you're story too.

That is just awful but, I guess like a lot of us, its so familiar......

I've had this multiple times with the old "cant breathe/chest pains" thing. Lets just say hes never going to win an oscar for his acting - its awful.
I remember my wife once (shes a nurse) saw him during his act. Within literally 1 seconds she said "hes faking it".

Thanks P123. I'm so fed up. I think that there's nothing he can do about being elderly, and he just hates it.
Also, his mum died of sudden heart failure. She was 95. I think this makes him anxious because she just WENT within minutes.
She was a total narcissist who abused my dad. She lived with my parents for 12 years and abused them both during that time. They let her. They excused their compliance as 'respect'.  I think it's why my dad expects me to let him abuse me. I think he feels cheated out if that ugly behaviour, that only stopped when obs day, she threatened to attack my mum. They then put her in a rest home.
She was a proper sociopath. I think they live long lives because nothing gets to them - except for their own fears about their own demise. Grandma would never discuss her funeral, nothing like that would she entertain.
I think your dad tries to press those 'respect' buttons too. They all do it.

Yes 'respect' to the pds in my life means agreeing with them, allowing them to control me, and never calling out their hurtful behaviors.
P123 Does that seem consistent with what you feel you dad expects of you? If so you dont need to 'respect' him at all. IME

Quote from: PeanutButter on July 07, 2020, 09:59:21 AM
Yes 'respect' to the pds in my life means agreeing with them, allowing them to control me, and never calling out their hurtful behaviors.
P123 Does that seem consistent with what you feel you dad expects of you? If so you dont need to 'respect' him at all. IME

This is standard narcissism. Can't disagree with them, can't say no to what they want, and certainly can't call them out on their bad behaviors no matter how outrageous.

It's like dealing with a 5 year old. In an adult body. They do have the emotional intelligence of a young child.

Quote from: nanotech on July 07, 2020, 09:50:37 AM

Quote from: p123 on July 07, 2020, 04:54:43 AM
No thats cool nano.... Its nice to hear you're story too.

That is just awful but, I guess like a lot of us, its so familiar......

I've had this multiple times with the old "cant breathe/chest pains" thing. Lets just say hes never going to win an oscar for his acting - its awful.
I remember my wife once (shes a nurse) saw him during his act. Within literally 1 seconds she said "hes faking it".

Thanks P123. I'm so fed up. I think that there's nothing he can do about being elderly, and he just hates it.
Also, his mum died of sudden heart failure. She was 95. I think this makes him anxious because she just WENT within minutes.
She was a total narcissist who abused my dad. She lived with my parents for 12 years and abused them both during that time. They let her. They excused their compliance as 'respect'.  I think it's why my dad expects me to let him abuse me. I think he feels cheated out if that ugly behaviour, that only stopped when obs day, she threatened to attack my mum. They then put her in a rest home.
She was a proper sociopath. I think they live long lives because nothing gets to them - except for their own fears about their own demise. Grandma would never discuss her funeral, nothing like that would she entertain.
I think your dad tries to press those 'respect' buttons too. They all do it.

Yes I think so - they seem to think they can behave as they want because you have to have "respect" for them.

Quote from: PeanutButter on July 07, 2020, 09:59:21 AM
Yes 'respect' to the pds in my life means agreeing with them, allowing them to control me, and never calling out their hurtful behaviors.
P123 Does that seem consistent with what you feel you dad expects of you? If so you dont need to 'respect' him at all. IME

Oh yes. His attitude seems to be "I'm your Dad, I'm old, I need your help, what I say goes, everyone will have to deal with it". Total lack of respect for anyone.

The thing is he doesn't "need" much help at all - he "wants" things done for him because either he can't be bothered or because he likes getting people to run around for him.