Out of the FOG

Im pretty much at my wits end now after tonights visit.....

GC brother is trying ANOTHER scam where hes unavailable. He does this because he think it forces me to step up.
Dad was all "woe is me I'm so ill" Hes not. Then when I admitted that GC brother and I dont speak because of what he does, hes off "woe is me" because of this.

Dad has fallen for the brother scam and wants me to take him out at weekends. In all honesty, with all thats going on with my own family its not easy. Im just so annoyed to be forced into it.
I'll be ending up getting divorced if I give in now - wife will be batty. Dad even said "bring daughter with you" when I said wife works weekends. WOW. Hes completely uninterested in her normally but he wants me to drag a 7 year old along in the car just so I can take him for a ride.

I pointed out hes not ill, he can look after himself and to stop feeling sorry for himself. I've had enough. I told him my brother and I disagree and I cannot be botjhered to get into an argument about it.

Honestly, they're ramping things up again - my mental health is suffering a lot at the moment.

I honestly have dreams that I never have to see either of them again.....

I understand - and it really IS enough to drive you round the bend!  :stars:

Firs t- please *breathe.*  :yes:

Put your oxygen mask on.  That's what it's there for.  You can't help anybody - especially yourself - if you don't take care of yourself and put your oxygen mask on *first.*   8-)

Second - who CARES what your dad wants and your brother wants!?  They don't care what you can and can't do, and are trying to *force* you into a role you're not comfortable with, so it's time to man up and say,
"Enough!"

"NO" is a complete sentence.

Dad wants you to drive him around?

"No."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyy?"

"I just told you, I can't."  :ninja:

Repeat as often as needed and remember *you call all the shots!*  :yes:

You really do!  That's why the two of them are so damned insistent that you  MUST come when called.

They don't want you to realize that ultimately, you're the one with all the power - and if you say no, that's IT.

Dad wants you to come every weekend?

"No, dad.  I can't."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyyyy???????"

"I just told you, I can't.  You'll have to figure out something else."  :ninja:

You don't want to call twice a week?

Don't!   :yes:

Call ONCE!  Call once every 10 days or two weeks - whatever YOU are comfortable with - and if they don't like it, that's just too damned bad.

If your father forces the issue - blows up your phone - block him until the next time you WANT to call.

It really can be that easy if we *allow* it to be.

Remember - you  really DO have all the power.  8-)

:hug:

She is right, you do have all the power.  Next time instead of saying you 'can't"...what would happen if you said "I don't want to ".  "No Dad, I don't want to spend my weekend driving you around".

My father tried a lot of these tactics on me.  Sometimes he 'won' but most of the time I held firm and refused to jump when he called.   You do know you don't have to answer every call.  If it was serious the hospital would call you.

Decide what you are willing to do.  A visit after work for 2 hours once every other week.  Maybe a 20 minute phone call once a week.  And that is it.

My father used to try everything he could to get me to take him to his doctor appointments. The last thing on earth I wanted to do was sit through an appointment.  I offered a compromise.  He takes a cab to the appointment  set around the time I get off work. I would pick him up from his appointment and get him home.  No he had the brilliant idea that he should make the appointment for AFTER I got off of work so I could take him and bring him home....and he presented this to me like he was doing me the favor of letting me take him to the doctor !  I told him straight up I didn't want to sit through his doctor appointments.  I had logged in so many hours in the ER for that man I was just done at this point.

Wrote a long post then my phone died!
I've had a glass of Prosecco ( only one!) and feeling sleepy and probably will be snoring soon,  so I'm just going to write this-
I agree with WI and lkdrymom!
Everything they said is spot on!
All you have to do is
BE THE WALL, BE STRONG.
Don't respond to the FOG.
You are busy with your family at the weekend. End of!

Just to add, not fair on your wife or your daughter to do that to them each weekend.
Remember that if calls with him get difficult you can say bye and end the call. If he rings back you do NOT have to pick up. It doesn't matter that he knows you are in. You are completely entitled to be busy doing other things. Stop letting him rule your life. He seems to be in charge of you, and that has to stop.
Letting the phone ring is a new skill I've learned.
Boundaries are everything. So is your family of choice. Your PD dad comes miles after them. He's lucky he gets a visit at all in my view.
You have a HUMAN RIGHT not to talk to your brother. If dad questions it, be assertive.
' I can understand you might feel like that dad but I'm not talking to him, and that's simply the end of that discussion.'
No need to give any reason. They use reasons against us. It's up to you whether you speak to brother or not. UP TO YOU. You don't have to 'report in'to your dad about your relationship with your brother.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 20, 2020, 04:33:45 PM
I understand - and it really IS enough to drive you round the bend!  :stars:

Firs t- please *breathe.*  :yes:

Put your oxygen mask on.  That's what it's there for.  You can't help anybody - especially yourself - if you don't take care of yourself and put your oxygen mask on *first.*   8-)

Second - who CARES what your dad wants and your brother wants!?  They don't care what you can and can't do, and are trying to *force* you into a role you're not comfortable with, so it's time to man up and say,
"Enough!"

"NO" is a complete sentence.

Dad wants you to drive him around?

"No."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyy?"

"I just told you, I can't."  :ninja:

Repeat as often as needed and remember *you call all the shots!*  :yes:

You really do!  That's why the two of them are so damned insistent that you  MUST come when called.

They don't want you to realize that ultimately, you're the one with all the power - and if you say no, that's IT.

Dad wants you to come every weekend?

"No, dad.  I can't."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyyyy???????"

"I just told you, I can't.  You'll have to figure out something else."  :ninja:

You don't want to call twice a week?

Don't!   :yes:

Call ONCE!  Call once every 10 days or two weeks - whatever YOU are comfortable with - and if they don't like it, that's just too damned bad.

If your father forces the issue - blows up your phone - block him until the next time you WANT to call.

It really can be that easy if we *allow* it to be.

Remember - you  really DO have all the power.  8-)

:hug:

I know, I know, I know.

This is the bit I find hard - just saying no.

Quote from: nanotech on August 20, 2020, 05:53:21 PM
Wrote a long post then my phone died!
I've had a glass of Prosecco ( only one!) and feeling sleepy and probably will be snoring soon,  so I'm just going to write this-
I agree with WI and lkdrymom!
Everything they said is spot on!
All you have to do is
BE THE WALL, BE STRONG.
Don't respond to the FOG.
You are busy with your family at the weekend. End of!

Just to add, not fair on your wife or your daughter to do that to them each weekend.
Remember that if calls with him get difficult you can say bye and end the call. If he rings back you do NOT have to pick up. It doesn't matter that he knows you are in. You are completely entitled to be busy doing other things. Stop letting him rule your life. He seems to be in charge of you, and that has to stop.
Letting the phone ring is a new skill I've learned.
Boundaries are everything. So is your family of choice. Your PD dad comes miles after them. He's lucky he gets a visit at all in my view.
You have a HUMAN RIGHT not to talk to your brother. If dad questions it, be assertive.
' I can understand you might feel like that dad but I'm not talking to him, and that's simply the end of that discussion.'
No need to give any reason. They use reasons against us. It's up to you whether you speak to brother or not. UP TO YOU. You don't have to 'report in'to your dad about your relationship with your brother.

Well, wifes new job means she works 6 weekends out of 8. I dont want to waste half a day of the weekends we have together ferrying him around.

He actually said as well "bring x with you then and we can go out for a ride". This is my 7 year old who in the past has hes moaned I brought her. Jeez.
I've done this in the past, took them both to a country park where theres a playground. He literally lets her play for 5 mins then wants to go home. In the past, I've left him sit in the car for 30 mins sulking and hes moaning he want to go home now.

I said NO. 7 year olds do not want to sit in the car for an hour driving around - its boring. He doesnt care of course.
Ended with me saying I'm not talking to brother - END OF. Not his decision its mine and he does not get involved. I will take him out IF I can but hes got to understand I've got other things on.

Quote from: lkdrymom on August 20, 2020, 05:35:15 PM
She is right, you do have all the power.  Next time instead of saying you 'can't"...what would happen if you said "I don't want to ".  "No Dad, I don't want to spend my weekend driving you around".

My father tried a lot of these tactics on me.  Sometimes he 'won' but most of the time I held firm and refused to jump when he called.   You do know you don't have to answer every call.  If it was serious the hospital would call you.

Decide what you are willing to do.  A visit after work for 2 hours once every other week.  Maybe a 20 minute phone call once a week.  And that is it.

My father used to try everything he could to get me to take him to his doctor appointments. The last thing on earth I wanted to do was sit through an appointment.  I offered a compromise.  He takes a cab to the appointment  set around the time I get off work. I would pick him up from his appointment and get him home.  No he had the brilliant idea that he should make the appointment for AFTER I got off of work so I could take him and bring him home....and he presented this to me like he was doing me the favor of letting me take him to the doctor !  I told him straight up I didn't want to sit through his doctor appointments.  I had logged in so many hours in the ER for that man I was just done at this point.

Its just a CONSTANT battle thats wearing me down at the moment....

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 20, 2020, 04:33:45 PM
I understand - and it really IS enough to drive you round the bend!  :stars:

Firs t- please *breathe.*  :yes:

Put your oxygen mask on.  That's what it's there for.  You can't help anybody - especially yourself - if you don't take care of yourself and put your oxygen mask on *first.*   8-)

Second - who CARES what your dad wants and your brother wants!?  They don't care what you can and can't do, and are trying to *force* you into a role you're not comfortable with, so it's time to man up and say,
"Enough!"

"NO" is a complete sentence.

Dad wants you to drive him around?

"No."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyy?"

"I just told you, I can't."  :ninja:

Repeat as often as needed and remember *you call all the shots!*  :yes:

You really do!  That's why the two of them are so damned insistent that you  MUST come when called.

They don't want you to realize that ultimately, you're the one with all the power - and if you say no, that's IT.

Dad wants you to come every weekend?

"No, dad.  I can't."  :ninja:

"Whyyyyyyyy???????"

"I just told you, I can't.  You'll have to figure out something else."  :ninja:

You don't want to call twice a week?

Don't!   :yes:

Call ONCE!  Call once every 10 days or two weeks - whatever YOU are comfortable with - and if they don't like it, that's just too damned bad.

If your father forces the issue - blows up your phone - block him until the next time you WANT to call.

It really can be that easy if we *allow* it to be.

Remember - you  really DO have all the power.  8-)

:hug:

Wish I could be like you :-((((((

I find it hard....

Your brother is entitled to be unavailable to your father just as you are. He’s not obligated to be there for your father because he made different life choices and you wish to step away.

Your brother wanting to step away is not a scam. He likely shares your frustrations. You say it’s a scam to get you to step up, but isn’t that exactly what you are doing to him? Are you valuing his time and happiness as less than yours because he hasn’t found the financial success you have and he battles with his own family relationships?  Growing up with a Pd parent has a life-long impact and it takes work and effort to break free. Not everyone can do that work. In many ways GC have it worse.

Your brother may very well be struggling with the same things you are in trying to get some space for his own life. From what you have shared here it seems like he was very negatively impacted by his upbringing and it struggling to find his way. I now that my GC sister has struggled more than I have as she never has the chance to figure out who she is separate from my father. She also relies on him financially.

It took me many years to realize that my problems weren’t the fault of others. Your brother’s choices are not the reason you are in this situation.

I know it’s probably easier to step away from your father knowing your bother is there in your place but it’s not his responsibility to step in for you regardless of how you value his life choices and time.

My life became much simpler and happier once I started looking inward and doing the hard things I was avoiding. They say nothing changes if nothing changes. The only way you are going to change anything in your life is by making a hard choice.

I found therapy very helpful. I also read everything I could on Codependency. One of the biggest turning points for me was realizing that my situation was a choice. It felt like it wasn’t as I didn’t like the choices I had. Once I accepted there was no easy path I was able to take some steps to build the life I wanted.

Quote from: p123 on August 21, 2020, 04:20:44 AM

Quote from: lkdrymom on August 20, 2020, 05:35:15 PM
She is right, you do have all the power.  Next time instead of saying you 'can't"...what would happen if you said "I don't want to ".  "No Dad, I don't want to spend my weekend driving you around".

My father tried a lot of these tactics on me.  Sometimes he 'won' but most of the time I held firm and refused to jump when he called.   You do know you don't have to answer every call.  If it was serious the hospital would call you.

Decide what you are willing to do.  A visit after work for 2 hours once every other week.  Maybe a 20 minute phone call once a week.  And that is it.

My father used to try everything he could to get me to take him to his doctor appointments. The last thing on earth I wanted to do was sit through an appointment.  I offered a compromise.  He takes a cab to the appointment  set around the time I get off work. I would pick him up from his appointment and get him home.  No he had the brilliant idea that he should make the appointment for AFTER I got off of work so I could take him and bring him home....and he presented this to me like he was doing me the favor of letting me take him to the doctor !  I told him straight up I didn't want to sit through his doctor appointments.  I had logged in so many hours in the ER for that man I was just done at this point.

Its just a CONSTANT battle thats wearing me down at the moment....

I know.  It is like a child begging for every toy in the store.  They won't let up.  The thing is we usually have no problems saying NO to our kids.....but our parents we have been conditioned that we can't say NO.  You have to remember you are an adult and your Dad does not get to dictate your life anymore.  I found the best way to deal with this is to get mad about something he did.  You will have less guilt saying NO.

Someone told me a while ago, after I explained the guilt and awful feelings of not living up to their expectations, and being continually abused:

"What if you get to a point where you don't give a shit what they think?"

Sounded absurd at the time. Simplistic. Almost insulting. However guess what? It's the answer.

You need to make choices that work for YOU. Why care what either of them think? They don't care about what you think! Why are you giving them that control over your emotions, your well-being and your schedule.

You're in the thick of it right now. You're feeling the anger stage and realizing that you've been manipulated, guilted, shamed and quite frankly taken advantage of. You're on the verge of a new part of the process.

Your father thinks you're a lousy son?
Oh well.

Your brother thinks you're a slacker who needs to more for your father?
Oh well.

My grandmother thinks I'm an awful granddaughter, my father thinks I don't care about him and tells everyone in town that I think he's an asshole. Does it feel good knowing this? No, however I know the truth and I know that continued contact with them is damaging to my well-being.

Your well-being is being damaged. It's time to stop caring what they think and set some hard boundaries.

What your father does to you is, in my opinion, harassment.

Quote from: GettingOOTF on August 21, 2020, 05:32:42 AM
Your brother is entitled to be unavailable to your father just as you are. He's not obligated to be there for your father because he made different life choices and you wish to step away.

Your brother wanting to step away is not a scam. He likely shares your frustrations. You say it's a scam to get you to step up, but isn't that exactly what you are doing to him? Are you valuing his time and happiness as less than yours because he hasn't found the financial success you have and he battles with his own family relationships?  Growing up with a Pd parent has a life-long impact and it takes work and effort to break free. Not everyone can do that work. In many ways GC have it worse.

Your brother may very well be struggling with the same things you are in trying to get some space for his own life. From what you have shared here it seems like he was very negatively impacted by his upbringing and it struggling to find his way. I now that my GC sister has struggled more than I have as she never has the chance to figure out who she is separate from my father. She also relies on him financially.

It took me many years to realize that my problems weren't the fault of others. Your brother's choices are not the reason you are in this situation.

I know it's probably easier to step away from your father knowing your bother is there in your place but it's not his responsibility to step in for you regardless of how you value his life choices and time.

My life became much simpler and happier once I started looking inward and doing the hard things I was avoiding. They say nothing changes if nothing changes. The only way you are going to change anything in your life is by making a hard choice.

I found therapy very helpful. I also read everything I could on Codependency. One of the biggest turning points for me was realizing that my situation was a choice. It felt like it wasn't as I didn't like the choices I had. Once I accepted there was no easy path I was able to take some steps to build the life I wanted.

Very good advice here. Good post.

p123 - it sounds like you have come to a point where you must choose which relationships to nurture - your dad, or your wife & child.  I implore you to choose your wife & child.  Yes, the first few "No"s to dad will be terrifying.  They just will.  But those No's will pay dividends for the rest of your life.  Please choose your wife & child.

Quote from: GettingOOTF on August 21, 2020, 05:32:42 AM
Your brother is entitled to be unavailable to your father just as you are. He's not obligated to be there for your father because he made different life choices and you wish to step away.

Your brother wanting to step away is not a scam. He likely shares your frustrations. You say it's a scam to get you to step up, but isn't that exactly what you are doing to him? Are you valuing his time and happiness as less than yours because he hasn't found the financial success you have and he battles with his own family relationships?  Growing up with a Pd parent has a life-long impact and it takes work and effort to break free. Not everyone can do that work. In many ways GC have it worse.

Your brother may very well be struggling with the same things you are in trying to get some space for his own life. From what you have shared here it seems like he was very negatively impacted by his upbringing and it struggling to find his way. I now that my GC sister has struggled more than I have as she never has the chance to figure out who she is separate from my father. She also relies on him financially.

It took me many years to realize that my problems weren't the fault of others. Your brother's choices are not the reason you are in this situation.

I know it's probably easier to step away from your father knowing your bother is there in your place but it's not his responsibility to step in for you regardless of how you value his life choices and time.

My life became much simpler and happier once I started looking inward and doing the hard things I was avoiding. They say nothing changes if nothing changes. The only way you are going to change anything in your life is by making a hard choice.

I found therapy very helpful. I also read everything I could on Codependency. One of the biggest turning points for me was realizing that my situation was a choice. It felt like it wasn't as I didn't like the choices I had. Once I accepted there was no easy path I was able to take some steps to build the life I wanted.

Respectfully I disagree about my brother....

We've had conversations in the past where we discussed the exact same things.  We've both got different circumstances so I suggested we both did what we can for Dad. He disagreed strongly and said my family situation is not his problem and I need to do as much as him. I told him that if he has family stuff also then he should do that too and not let Dad dictate.


This is where we started to fall out. He'd then send me a rota with my wifes name on as well to visit Dad. (He said my wife had to "step up" too). I told him I couldnt do it. Then he started things like "I'm away saturday, you'll HAVE to visit Dad". Again I said No I can't do. He did this a few times and then he posted on facebook something which proved that what he's said was a lie.

Then we stopped talking. Since then hes tried via Dad. For instance, yesterday hes told Dad that hes got work on for next few weekends and suggested to Dad that I can do it in his place... Great eh?
So I've no reason to think this is not just another attempt.

Of course, Dad is convinced he needs someone to do everything for him. So hes quite happy for brother to molly coddle him and expect "someone" to be there all the time.
If Dad NEEDED anything I'd do it. He doesnt NEED anything but WANTS a lot.

Quote from: Adrianna on August 21, 2020, 06:32:41 AM
Someone told me a while ago, after I explained the guilt and awful feelings of not living up to their expectations, and being continually abused:

"What if you get to a point where you don't give a shit what they think?"

Sounded absurd at the time. Simplistic. Almost insulting. However guess what? It's the answer.

You need to make choices that work for YOU. Why care what either of them think? They don't care about what you think! Why are you giving them that control over your emotions, your well-being and your schedule.

You're in the thick of it right now. You're feeling the anger stage and realizing that you've been manipulated, guilted, shamed and quite frankly taken advantage of. You're on the verge of a new part of the process.

Your father thinks you're a lousy son?
Oh well.

Your brother thinks you're a slacker who needs to more for your father?
Oh well.

My grandmother thinks I'm an awful granddaughter, my father thinks I don't care about him and tells everyone in town that I think he's an asshole. Does it feel good knowing this? No, however I know the truth and I know that continued contact with them is damaging to my well-being.

Your well-being is being damaged. It's time to stop caring what they think and set some hard boundaries.

What your father does to you is, in my opinion, harassment.

At the moment, I dont care what either of them think, and yes it is harrassment.

I still cannot, face to face, just say NO though.... :-(

Quote from: wisingup on August 21, 2020, 08:35:42 AM
p123 - it sounds like you have come to a point where you must choose which relationships to nurture - your dad, or your wife & child.  I implore you to choose your wife & child.  Yes, the first few "No"s to dad will be terrifying.  They just will.  But those No's will pay dividends for the rest of your life.  Please choose your wife & child.

Oh I plan to make that choice. And I have. Hes hanging on in there at the moment and I'm bad at saying No.

Hey p123, could you help us understand your thought process around saying no? How does it make you feel, where do you get stuck, etc?

p123, your father occupies a huge amount of space in your brain. Only you can evict him.

Quote from: Andeza on August 21, 2020, 09:23:29 AM
Hey p123, could you help us understand your thought process around saying no? How does it make you feel, where do you get stuck, etc?

Its difficult to say. He'll say something and I just feel obliged to justify it.....

If I say no, he'll launch into "why? what are you doing?"

I guess deep down I know a straight no will upset him so its easier to make some excuse up.

So obligation is still factoring heavily in your decision making process. In addition, you said you're afraid he'll be upset. What part of him being upset concerns you? Is it the child within that remembers how scary it is when dad gets angry and demanding, or is it something else?

Just called me. Hes how it went...

Dad: So you're coming up sunday?
Me: No Dad we already discussed this.
Dad: No you said you'd sort something out. (He has a habit of doing this)
Me: No I didn't say that.
Dad: Why not?
Me: I told you family stuff and wife working shifts (yes first mistake)
Dad: Yes but you can bring x (my 7 year old) with you. (this is rich when in the past hes moaned when I brought her)
Me: No Dad its boring for a 7 year old to sit her in the corner and ignore her.
Dad: She'll be ok. She used to come here..... (this is how it goes with him).
Dad: Well, I'd like to see you both (this is lie - he wants ME to go up there is all)
Me: <Silence> (yes I did this right)
Dad: OK so you'll probably be up then. Ring me in the morning to let me know what time you are coming? (Its unbelievable isn't it? He is such a bully).
Me: No I will speak to you sunday. (yeh I should have repeated Im not coming up)
Dad: Yes well, I need you to visit me...... (Jeez he never stops)

This is probably the 20th time we've had this sort of conversation. What will happen now is I won't ring him until later on sunday. If I ring him earlier all I'll get is a repeat of todays conversation. If I ring him late (which I will do) then I'll get told things like "you're messing me about you promised to let me know what time you were coming". "Where have you been all day?" etc etc

If I don't ring him at all, he will ring my phone until I answer. If I block his number or turn the phone off - did this in the past. I spoke to him a day later and he said he was going to call the police because he thought something had happened to me. I can honestly see him doing something like this to be honest.

Its like I'm trapped in a prison cell and can't escape...

Quote from: Andeza on August 21, 2020, 10:05:38 AM
So obligation is still factoring heavily in your decision making process. In addition, you said you're afraid he'll be upset. What part of him being upset concerns you? Is it the child within that remembers how scary it is when dad gets angry and demanding, or is it something else?

Well, I think its a problem with me - I hate conflict. Can't deal with..... Im the same with people in work. I worry I've upset someone etc.


Obviously, most of us would rather not upset our elderly parents. I know I should call it as it is but I can't do it.

If you are struggling with saying no then you DO still care too much about what they think.

Not only is he harassing you, he's also controlling you. You're giving him your power by not saying a firm no. No excuses, no reasons. You have every right to say no to him and anyone else.

He will wiggle in however he can and take any opportunity to trip you up on this. He does not respect your boundaries at all. That's HIS issue, not yours. You can still set boundaries even if he doesn't respect them.

Have you considered therapy for yourself or counseling? It really helps to find a good trauma therapist, one trained in healing from emotional abuse and narcissism.

You are not upsetting your Dad. He is choosing to be upset to manipulate you. No is a complete sentence, not a cause of conflict.

I was where you are a year ago.  I'm getting ready to start therapy with a NPD expert and I looked back over my old posts to recall all of it to pass the info along to the therapist. 

Someone here asked me back then what I thought the consequence would be if I just said no.  My issue wasn't visiting, it was answering 6-8 calls a day and when boundaries stopped that, it was the expectation that i call her twice a day, every day at a time that was convenient for her.  I had to be a mind reader to know when that was.  If i went 24 hours without calling there was a threat or a consequence.  I was in my 40s!

But I had to think long and hard about what the consequence was that I was so scared of.  What had they done or threatened to do over  the years or done that I was so afraid of.  I realized they couldn't take my car away or get it repossessed.  They couldn't stop paying their small portion of my tuition and cause me to have to quit college.   They make less money and I owe them none, so they couldn't threaten financial consequences.   Most of my older relatives have passed so the threat they have used in the past of not telling me that a relative passed (they actually did that when in college I went a whole weekend without calling twice a day) no longer worked.  In the end I was afraid of what people in the community where I haven't lived in 20+ years might think of me - what their friends at my old church might think.  I was worried that one of my parents might commit suicide and I would be blamed.   There was a threat, but it didn't happen.   Now they refuse to speak to me because I won't call twice a day and I wanted an apology for the awful suicide threat texts.   I didn't get the apology.  We are now NC.

What are you afraid the consequence might be?  You don't have to tell us.   You have to know so you can accept that either it won't happen or it it does, that it's not your fault.  It's his fault.   You have every right to tell him no. 

This is hard work.   It was terrifying for me.   Others thought it seemed crazy that I couldn't just say no, but we have been punished for so many years for having boundaries that it seems terrifying.

WI is right.  No is a complete sentence.   Read again about JADEing.   You don't owe him an explanation.  A therapist could help.   Are you able to find one?

Quote from: p123 on August 21, 2020, 04:20:10 AM

Quote from: nanotech on August 20, 2020, 05:53:21 PM
Wrote a long post then my phone died!
I've had a glass of Prosecco ( only one!) and feeling sleepy and probably will be snoring soon,  so I'm just going to write this-
I agree with WI and lkdrymom!
Everything they said is spot on!
All you have to do is
BE THE WALL, BE STRONG.
Don't respond to the FOG.
You are busy with your family at the weekend. End of!

Just to add, not fair on your wife or your daughter to do that to them each weekend.
Remember that if calls with him get difficult you can say bye and end the call. If he rings back you do NOT have to pick up. It doesn't matter that he knows you are in. You are completely entitled to be busy doing other things. Stop letting him rule your life. He seems to be in charge of you, and that has to stop.
Letting the phone ring is a new skill I've learned.
Boundaries are everything. So is your family of choice. Your PD dad comes miles after them. He's lucky he gets a visit at all in my view.
You have a HUMAN RIGHT not to talk to your brother. If dad questions it, be assertive.
' I can understand you might feel like that dad but I'm not talking to him, and that's simply the end of that discussion.'
No need to give any reason. They use reasons against us. It's up to you whether you speak to brother or not. UP TO YOU. You don't have to 'report in'to your dad about your relationship with your brother.

Well, wifes new job means she works 6 weekends out of 8. I dont want to waste half a day of the weekends we have together ferrying him around.

He actually said as well "bring x with you then and we can go out for a ride". This is my 7 year old who in the past has hes moaned I brought her. Jeez.
I've done this in the past, took them both to a country park where theres a playground. He literally lets her play for 5 mins then wants to go home. In the past, I've left him sit in the car for 30 mins sulking and hes moaning he want to go home now.

I said NO. 7 year olds do not want to sit in the car for an hour driving around - its boring. He doesnt care of course.
Ended with me saying I'm not talking to brother - END OF. Not his decision its mine and he does not get involved. I will take him out IF I can but hes got to understand I've got other things on.

You wrote that your dad
'....has got to understand I've got other things on.'
Just bear this in mind. He may never ever understand it. He may voice dissent evermore, moaning and groaning and lamenting and finger pointing until the day he dies. So maybe don't expect understanding.
He does have to accept it, even if he's extremely reluctant to do so.
Just hold steady.
If YOU can accept his continual disapproval, countering it with boundaries and low or no contact, then you can live your life as a free person. At present, I don't think you are a  free person. Your dad looms too large in your life.
Stop caring what he thinks. Stop listening to his demands. You are saying no, but it isn't ending there. If I were you I would limit  your contact to call only when you want to,  and on phone calls,  put clear boundaries down. Tell him you won't discuss certain things. Don't react in any way to waifing. Don't respond to it. Wait till he's waifed then simply  change the subject. Yes, you can do that. Don't  offer solutions. He wants there to be no solution so he will enjoy shooting them down and hearing your growing frustration.
You don't have to ring up regularly just to hear abuse. That's what this is. 
It's hard to break away, then a bit easier,  then easy. Then it becomes effortless. 
Eventually you will look at how you reacted in the past, and gasp in disbelief.
It's an amazing feeling when you stop being reactive, when you stop
running round after them, out of fear, obligation and guilt.

Your dad is never, EVER going to understand that you've got other things going on and more than that, he doesn't CARE.  HE is the priority and YOU are going to make him that priority, so help him!   :aaauuugh:

You say you don't like conflict - I understand.  I'm not big on it myself, but sometimes we *have* to stand up for ourselves and say, "This is ridiculous!"

What I'd do, if I were you is NOT call Sunday.  If he starts blowing up the phone, block him.  If he sends the police, explain your father is old and starting to lose it.  Please do NOT report back to him that you're okay - and please keep it in mind if he keeps calling about your "safety."   :ninja:

Explain he's not incompetent, but you can't control what he does, either. 

You're not the one who is going to get in trouble with the police.  They do NOT like to be used and manipulated, and if  your father keeps it up, he's going to wind up with a summons, a fine, both  - or a night in the slammer, to teach him a lesson.

Call MONDAY - if you want.  If you don't want, call Tuesday.   :yes:

If he immediately starts moaning, hang up.  Block his number.  Call again in a week or so *if you want to.*  :yes:

In a week or so, you may not want to - that's okay.  You don't HAVE to.  He's not alone, on an ice - he lives in a town and they have services he can utilize.

Or not.  That's up to him.  You can't force him to accept help, but it won't go well for him if The Authorities get involved - and they will, eventually.

You seem like you're afraid of your father - you are both ADULTS.  There is *nothing* he can do to you, as mentioned before.  He can't ground you, send you to bed without supper or take away  your allowance.

Your father has NO power - only FOG and words at his disposal, which he'll use to keep you coming back, whether you like it or not.

Neither you nor your brother are *required* to take care of him.  Your brother certainly doesn't want to, so why should it fall to you, who has so much more going on?

It doesn't have to if you decide that you and your father are on equal footing and you've just as much right to an opinion  as he does and yours just happens to be, "No. You're going to have to figure out something else.  I'm too busy and besides, I really don't  want to visit you."

If he decides to force the issue that's when you have to use every tool at your  disposal and play hardball in refusing to visit and calling even less.

Those are the *consequences* to his bad behavior.

He doesn't just get to skate - there are measures you can take to preserve your peace, sanity - and marriage.

Please keep in mind - your kids are watching all of this.  What kind of lessons do  you want them to learn about you?  That you're a total pushover - or that you say what you mean, mean what you say and have boundaries that can't be broken?

I'd rather the latter - so please keep that in mind.   

Once I got over my fear of Didi and let *anger* settle in - how DARE you!? - things got really interesting.  I wouldn't moan to DH about Didi's tactics, but would say, "Hey honey, you're never going to guess what she tried this time!"   :wacko:

I'd relay her latest stunts as a stupid story and we'd both laugh, groan, roll our eyes - and let it go - until the next time.

And yeah, there was always a next time -  but I was getting a lot better at not responding at all, and calling as *my* schedule allowed, no matter what crap she was trying to orchestrate. 

Didi had doctors, nurses, good health insurance, ERs, hospitals - all of that stuff at her disposal but the ONE thing she wanted to abuse - me - was conspicuously absent - and stayed that way, until she was dead.

I  didn't have a 25-mile barrier, which sounds absolutely mouth-watering!  I had *three miles!* - but I made those three miles seem like I was on Mars.   :ninja:

You CAN do this - look around at your wife, your kids, your home, your cats (awww!) - all the good things in your life and think, "THIS is what I'm fighting for.  This is the good fight.  I'm fighting to preserve this - and
I'm going to win."

And dammit, you WILL!  8-)

Please allow yourself to think, "How DARE my father try to ruin another weekend?!  NO!  That's not going to happen!"

Then make it so!   :yes:

:hug:

You are getting great advice here, but I know there's a difference between reading it and really letting it sink in.

You've got to stop thinking your dad is going to change and magically become considerate and see your point. He isn't. He won't. He can't. His disorder prevents it.

The only person who can change here is YOU. Let go of any hope that this man is going to care about your time, your job, your family or you. It's not going to happen.

I agree with the others, sit and visit what are you afraid of by reducing contact? Like WI said if he calls the cops, let him. They'll figure it out. They may not the first time, but if he keeps it up they will. He may even get a psych evaluation out of it.

You're being abused and your anger is justified but it's time to do something about it, within YOURSELF, rather than waiting for your father to change.

The answer to this dilemma is in your hands, not your father's.

I feel I little pit of am imposter posting advice here to P123 as I, too, struggle to make my voice heard with my own PD's.  The advice of just saying "No.". Or "That doesn't work for me," etc is really good.  It is the gold standard of how I wish to behave with my PD's.  Unfortunately I'm not brave enough yet.  It's like I am a little bird at the edge of its nest watching other birds fly. 

So, like in the story of "Dumbo" I am looking for phrases that are the equivalent of the Magic Feather.   If Dumbo held it he believed he could fly and did.  Eventually I will not need my Magic Feather to fly free.  I will just fly.  I get these magic feathers from all the wonderful people who post here. 

1.  You keep repeating yourself, do you remember asking this and what my answer was?  Maybe you should be examined for memory loss. 

2.  I can't help you with this. What does your doctor say?  (Thank you Womam Interrupted for this one!)

3. I don't want to talk about it.  And then I say goodbye and hang up.

4.  That didn't work out before.  How would you behave differently?  (Only the first part of that so far.  Not enough courage to engage with the second one.  Scared to give them the opportunity to wheedle.  But I ask myself this to remind myself she hasn't changed.)

There are others.   I try to review them before any contact now . Someday I will be strong enough to just say no.    Eventually I will deprogram myself from decades of conditioning. Eventually my stomach won't hurt at the thought of not obeying the PD's.   Until then I'm holding on and using them.   This courage thing is hard when you survived by using "freezing" or "fawning." 

Like Outsiderchild, I really struggled with this with my PDparents.  The fear was so strong.

I did the same thing - I memorized phrases to use in certain situations.  I even wrote them down and had them in front of me when I made the call. 

I also made a list of things to change the subject to when they tried to steer the conversation places I didn't want it to go. 

It took awhile, but it started to feel almost natural to me, and I'd trained them to expect it (although I'm sure they didn't like it). 

Yeh I guess its just me - Im the same with everyone. I hate arguing or having things unresolved. I'm like it with my wife, people in work etc. It plays on my mind that someone is not happy with me.
I dont know why.

Of course, Dad is the master at playing this. I dont seem able to say No because he comes back with why? then all of a sudden I'm jadeing.
Im making excuses etc because its easier.

Im at the point where I'm so mad, I dont care if he doesnt like it. BUT still there is a small 1-2% thinking I am being mean to him - just a niggle.
I guess I just like a quiet life too much and not willing to put in the hard yards so to speak,

p123, I consider myself to be a good and nice person, and I had to accept that things I did vis-a-vis my ex-spouse and his family might be seen by other people and myself as "not nice" and "not good" and that that was okay.

You're not being mean to him - you're putting your foot down and saying, "NO."

You'd do the same thing with your kids - this is no different. 

Except you'd think your father would know better.  :doh:

You owe him NO explanation.  You told him no.  He doesn't like it?  He is now OWED an explanation.

"Because I said so..." is perfectly acceptable.

"Because I told you, I can't."  "Because I don't WANT to."  "Asked and answered -next subject."  are all perfectly acceptable responses, so you don't wind up in a circular argument that goes nowhere.

Back to being "mean" to your dad -well, if he weren't so intolerable and unpleasant, you wouldn't have to be, would you?  You'd say, "No" - and he'd say, "Fine." - but he doesn't do that.  He keeps forcing the issue, wanting his way and that's not the kind of  behavior that brings out the best in us!   :stars:

We don't feel like we've been kind after these encounters - but we DID do what was necessary in sticking up for ourselves and our FOC's, who will in turn be grateful your father isn't ruining the weekend with his endless bleats - again.

I used to feel that way about Didi - yes I *could* - but I didn't want to, and I didn't want to because she was so *awful.*  If she construed that as "mean" or told others I was "mean" to her?

So be it.  They didn't know the whole story.  They don't walk a mile in my shoes and I realize that not everybody on planet earth is going to be happy with me, 100% of the time.  That's just not possible - especially if making them happy comes at my expense or detriment.

:hug:

Quote from: p123 on August 22, 2020, 12:06:12 PM
Yeh I guess its just me - Im the same with everyone. I hate arguing or having things unresolved. I'm like it with my wife, people in work etc. It plays on my mind that someone is not happy with me.
I dont know why.

Of course, Dad is the master at playing this. I dont seem able to say No because he comes back with why? then all of a sudden I'm jadeing.
Im making excuses etc because its easier.

Im at the point where I'm so mad, I dont care if he doesnt like it. BUT still there is a small 1-2% thinking I am being mean to him - just a niggle.
I guess I just like a quiet life too much and not willing to put in the hard yards so to speak,

I read this and I saw my past self. They raised us to be people pleasers.

I also see,

'Dad is the master'

'I don't seem to be able to say no'

When you hear 'why?' from your dad, which you will, answer generally.
I've even said to my dad
' because of this and that.'
Then if he pushed things I repeated it.
'Oh you know, this and that.'
When you first stop JADING and start using assertiveness techniques, it feels like you are driving a car with only three wheels.
You have to use everything you have to reassure yourself that you are safe.
I used/ still use  the toolbox on this website
'what to do/ what not to do  a lot.
I also can recommend a good book on techniques called, ' When I say no I feel guilty.'  by Manuel j Smith
An oldie but a goodie.

General statements - they can't start circular arguments from them. '
That doesn't work for me. I'll ring you. Take care dad gotta go, bye.'
click.

'Hmm I'll think about that. Let me get back to you.'
This is great for killing a rising argument and taking you off the hotspot.  You can get back to him with a big fat no at your leisure, or just don't get back to him.  :cool2:
I did this with dad, and  nicely avoided taking him to a theatre trip he wanted me ten organise, and paying for him too. He's loads better off than me financially.
He list interest when it wasn't instant gratification for him.  I just smiled then I dragged my feet on arranging it. ( I actually did nothing and didn't get back to him)  and he just never mentioned it again.
I think their obsessions change as easily as their moods.

What you have to get over, is that he's not gonna validate your new behaviour. And that is fine. You don't need it.  He wants to remain in charge of your life so he will fight your efforts to assert yourself. When he ups his game, reward that with ringing less and speaking for a shorter time.
The best you will get is a grudging acceptance. After that, the demands will diminish.
You have to claim your life in the face of their present and future dissent, dislike and disregard.
You have to take it.

I just want to add my agreement about going for some therapy. I did and it gave me validation on how I had been treated. Then a good therapist can give you tools for self validation and they can point out how you  you should not entertain self- blame or feelings of guilt or of failure. 
Here you are taking on the blame for not being able to deal with your dad!

'It's me.'
It isn't you.
It's him! He's a nightmare.
Why the heck he's got a scooter when he won't use it, is beyond me. I see plenty of older folk whizzing by on them. They are marvellous. If my legs go, I'm getting one!!
I wonder if that's why he never learned to drive? In case he broke down? He can't take responsibility for anything. He's probably secretly amazed at all the things you take in your stride, career, driving, flying for holidays and work, responsible and loving father, good husband who respects his wife.
PDs hate their children to do better than them. It irks them so.
My dad's first reaction to my passing my A levels was a glum face and the comment ' No's you've done better than I did at school. '
First kind in the family to take A levels and pass them and the first thing I had to do was console  my dad's ego so he didn't feel too badly about my achievement.Amid the faint praise I was totally aware I'd hurt him.

You've recognised something is off. Your gut has told you, otherwise you wouldn't be on this website.
But you keep dressing it up as less than it is. In my view, anyway.
So it isn't you. It's just that you are reluctant to risk properly putting down your foot. 

Plenty of elderly parents are annoying. But this is dysfunctional.
I love everyone's comments here. Outsider child touched my heart with the reference to Dumbo and the magic feather. Yes that's it. We think we can't, but we can.
Remember, if he ever were to call the police, it would likely be once.
The police have enough to do. The police know all about crank calls, and wasting police time is an offence.

Quote from: nanotech on August 22, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
I just want to add my agreement about going for some therapy. I did and it gave me validation on how I had been treated. Then a good therapist can give you tools for self validation and they can point out how you  you should not entertain self- blame or feelings of guilt or of failure. 
Here you are taking on the blame for not being able to deal with your dad!

'It's me.'
It isn't you.
It's him! He's a nightmare.
Why the heck he's got a scooter when he won't use it, is beyond me. I see plenty of older folk whizzing by on them. They are marvellous. If my legs go, I'm getting one!!
I wonder if that's why he never learned to drive? In case he broke down? He can't take responsibility for anything. He's probably secretly amazed at all the things you take in your stride, career, driving, flying for holidays and work, responsible and loving father, good husband who respects his wife.
PDs hate their children to do better than them. It irks them so.
My dad's first reaction to my passing my A levels was a glum face and the comment ' No's you've done better than I did at school. '
First kind in the family to take A levels and pass them and the first thing I had to do was console  my dad's ego so he didn't feel too badly about my achievement.Amid the faint praise I was totally aware I'd hurt him.

You've recognised something is off. Your gut has told you, otherwise you wouldn't be on this website.
But you keep dressing it up as less than it is. In my view, anyway.
So it isn't you. It's just that you are reluctant to risk properly putting down your foot. 

Plenty of elderly parents are annoying. But this is dysfunctional.
I love everyone's comments here. Outsider child touched my heart with the reference to Dumbo and the magic feather. Yes that's it. We think we can't, but we can.
Remember, if he ever were to call the police, it would likely be once.
The police have enough to do. The police know all about crank calls, and wasting police time is an offence.

I guess he never learned to drive for the same reasons - why have to think about it when someone else will drive you. The scooter thing is nuts - he lives literally 100 yards from the town centre. Even if he broke down, he could get a taxi home for next to nothing.

Hes said he'll go out with his cousin whos 3 years younger..... I pointed out that his cousin aint pushing it home if it breaks down. (Been there done that with my wife when she was ill, in florida, pushed it half way across Epcot. I'm not the fittest but I'm a big strong lad and it has not easy!)

So basically, the premise is if it breaks down he doesnt want to deal with it, doesnt want to be the one to ring someone, but his cousin will. To be honest, I think that was his thing with the car all his life. He doesnt want to be the one "in charge" or responsible for anything.

Of course, this has expanded to cover everything now. He doesnt want to have to think AT ALL.

BUT yeh I know all this and I do need to say NO. Think I need some therapy dont I?

I've been in therapy for over two years and I can tell you, once you find a good therapist with knowledge of trauma recovery, it's a huge help.

I highly recommend looking into it.

Without her, I might be still catering to the pd people in my life. I also wouldn't have learned what emotional abuse is.

When I first walked in for therapy and sat down and looked at my therapist smiling at me and welcoming me, I  didn't know where to start or really if I had anything to say.
I thought I would have nothing to tell her. We get used to holding it all in and telling ourselves we can cope. We have to be perfect, right?
A couple of hellos and sips of water. Then I didn't stop talking for the whole session. She just took notes for the first few sessions as I was so pent up with much to tell her. Someone outside the mess and chaos was listening and hearing.

I found that once I had that safe space, everything just came out.  It doesn't matter what order. I started from way back when! We've all got things to talk about from way back when.
It's great to talk to family, but family are themselves affected by the dysfunction. They can be wonderfully supportive but they are not therapists and can't take the full load of our problems, especially if they have received abuse themselves. The family as a whole benefits from the therapy, even if they don't attend. Trickle down effect, and all that. That's what I've found.
As I was talking in the first session, there was a knock at the door, and validation strolled in and put a hand on my shoulder.

If dad wants his cousin to come out with him then maybe don't have an opinion on that. Try having no opinion when he says things like that. It's part of grey rocking. No reaction. Just a bland, 'ok'. That's his stuff not your stuff to ponder on.
Just keep repeating,
' You've got your scooter and insurance, and there's no reason why you can't use it.'
They like to put obstacles in their own way to get what they think they are entitled too, in this case, you as a taxi service.
My sister hated her outdated flat, and being over 60 and on benefits, she was put on the list for a brand new one , all newly refurbished and lovely, in a better area.
Sigh. She turned it down because it had a shower, not a bath. After that she went to the bottom of the list I think. A gorgeous free flat for the rest of her life, but no, not enough.

Not enough not enough not enough. :roll:
Then they try to get US to provide what they want. In her case she tried to get me to find her a flat near to us. Then when she went off that idea ( I was suddenly going to become a granny and that would have been  competition for her, plus we might ask her to babysit!)  she twisted my arm up my back to force my dad to take her in to live with him.
They both bully each other. So dad doesn't want her. So I kept out of that. I realised I'd done her bidding for years. Once I stopped, she stopped calling. End of any relationship. It's bullying or it's nothing in my family.

You say that if you don't call he will ring you and ring you ' until I answer,'  You have to be stronger- don't answer. It's harassment. Or put him on voicemail.
My dad gets like this sometimes,  usually before a family event when he's not the centre of attention. If he is the COT at the event then he ignores me!
He's usually got a fake health problem.
I don't pick up.
any more.  I don't answer. I let it go to voicemail. 
Later when I played the voicemail with my adult daughterthere , we heard him mutter,
'Wheeeeere is she?'
She gasped. I had to laugh!  I'm actually at the laughing stage these days. #nopoweroverme
I was getting ready for my Auntie's funeral. I was feeling upset and sad. She passed over very unexpectedly.
I live  the furthest away. Yet it's me that gets the SOS call to pick him up last minute.

Nothing happened  to dad. I answered his call too late to help out and when I pointed this out he still bleated. So I said a big fat no then clicked off. Then left him a voicemail saying to get a taxi. I felt like superwoman.

He was grumpy when he saw me, complained about my 'tone' to husband who politely but firmly shut the complaining down. He couldn't continue, because we were at a funeral. He tried to be frosty but I ignored that  and mingled with everyone else but my immediate family, who all sat in the corner frostily!  I just laughed on the inside, and spoke to my cousins. I really how we all look to the extended family.
I told myself if he complains about me to anyone from extended family and they drop me because of it, then SO BE IT. WTH. Whatever. WTF! It's well worth it for my freedom. Not looking perfect? Fine by me!
I'm not going to be beholden to that bad tempered old man any more.

P123, You can get to this stage. You can.

Well he phoned me last night. For a change not so bad.... Ten minutes of moaning about his health (nothing wrong really and I'm not a doctor!)

So I knew it was coming, "are you visiting soon?". So I said "wednesday evening". OK - not too bad suits me.

Dad has got a habit of just saying whats on his mind so he blurts out - "So you'll have to visit me 2-3 times a week AT LEAST now then! OK see you wednesday Bye!"
I didn't even had time to reply.

I have NEVER agreed to that!!!!!! At the moment, I visit probably 3 times a month and he knows it.....

I spoke to him a week or so ago. I should have saved my breath because we've had the same conversation probably 3 times now. The one where I explain I've got other responsibilities. There is no humanly way possible I can visit him twice a week. Not even once to be honest, without neglecting my family.

I am SO MAD at him. I know you all told me so. I'm thinking of it as a positive because its made me so determined now to say NO to this.

Once you work through that anger stage, which you will, and have set firm boundaries, with no guilt at saying no, you will see that demand as ridiculous and actually amusing.

"Dad has got a habit of just saying whats on his mind so he blurts out - "So you'll have to visit me 2-3 times a week AT LEAST now then! OK see you wednesday Bye!"
I didn't even had time to reply"

Don't take this the wrong way but I laughed out loud when I read this. Once you get to the other side of the anger, you will see how absolutely absurd and out of touch he is. He's nothing but predictable. He's testing you.

I would have laughed and said "yeah that's not happening! Nice try though."

In all honesty though, this comes through therapy and very very low contact. When I was in the thick of it, with regular communication, I don't think I could have gotten there.

I really feel that you may have to think about seriously reducing contact with your father, maybe even going no contact. It would mean breaking the family ties but sit and think about it. Again, starting therapy can help you with this decision. You're fighting for your freedom and well-being here.

You know you can't continue down this path. Somethings gotta give.

A poster here commented on how when she lowered contact / and or stopped JADING, her dad, reducing calls and ending calls sooner, her dad tried to up his game by saying his nastiness and making demands right at the beginning of the conversation.
  I noticed your dad rang off before you could say anything in answer, trying to get the last word. OMG talk about trying to silence you! Well, it won't wash.


Adrianna said,

"I would have laughed and said "yeah that's not happening! Nice try though."

In all honesty though, this comes through therapy and very very low contact. When I was in the thick of it, with regular communication, I don't think I could have gotten there.

I really feel that you may have to think about seriously reducing contact with your father, maybe even going no contact. It would mean breaking the family ties but sit and think about it. Again, starting therapy can help you with this decision. You're fighting for your freedom and well-being here.

You know you can't continue down this path. Somethings gotta give. "

I agree completely. I think just the same  about myself, regarding therapy and combining it with VVLC ( dad) and NC with sibs.
A combination of talking it out with a professional, while at least lowering contact substantially ( this includes phonecalls!) is the best way forward.

You don't live with him, and he can't come round. The police don't respond to tantrums from entitled divas.

At least not in the ways they expect!
I think that's a bluff anyway.

During lockdown my dad said to me,

' I just might turn up at your door!'

I answered him back fast,

'And  I just might turn up at your door Dad!'
He ( angrier) said,

' Well you won't get in!'

I said, ( laughing)

'Well YOU won't get in MY house!'

Then  of course, he didn't know how to top that, so he said he had to ring off.
They like unsettling us. He knew the lockdown rules, but deep down it annoyed him that I seemed to have this 'free pass' not to be of service to him.
Chuck it right back somehow.

Just because he say something, doesn't make it  true.

Look at all the times he's tried to rope you into promises you wouldn't make, and then insists you DID promise.  :stars:

It's disordered, delusional thinking - and you don't have to play along.

I'm another who probably  would have said something along the lines of, "Yeah, that's not happening.  Nice try, though!"  - because I was detached enough to see what was going on and be SO over it.

Instead, you said nothing because he thinks he's SO sneaky and clever:  "If I tell P123 he's doing it and hang up, he won't have a choice!"

Um...guess again.  :ninja:

See line one:   just because he says something , doesn't make it true.   :Monsta:

Stick to *your* schedule - one visit on Wed evening.  The rest is to be determined and not by your dad - but by YOU.

Don't fall for the games - let yourself process what's going on and allow that to guide you to a place where you can make the best decisions for you and your FOC.

:hug:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 24, 2020, 09:33:36 AM
Just because he say something, doesn't make it  true.

Look at all the times he's tried to rope you into promises you wouldn't make, and then insists you DID promise.  :stars:

It's disordered, delusional thinking - and you don't have to play along.

I'm another who probably  would have said something along the lines of, "Yeah, that's not happening.  Nice try, though!"  - because I was detached enough to see what was going on and be SO over it.

Instead, you said nothing because he thinks he's SO sneaky and clever:  "If I tell P123 he's doing it and hang up, he won't have a choice!"

Um...guess again.  :ninja:

See line one:   just because he says something , doesn't make it true.   :Monsta:

Stick to *your* schedule - one visit on Wed evening.  The rest is to be determined and not by your dad - but by YOU.

Don't fall for the games - let yourself process what's going on and allow that to guide you to a place where you can make the best decisions for you and your FOC.

:hug:

Can guarantee on wednesday he'll follow through on this with "so when are you cominf the weekend?"

I'll say Im not and he'll say "why what are you doing?"
I'm not getting into it this time with explanations - he knows he tried to force it like this.

Im trying not to be mad too. I get so mad. Im just going to calmly say no can't make it the weekend, I might see you next week.

"Why, what are you doing?" is an  attempt at INVALIDATION.   :P

No matter what you have going on, it will NEVER equal /be more important than going to see him and can be pushed aside until later - so don't tell him anything.

"Dad, it's really none of your business."  :ninja:

Then leave, ASAP.  If he's going to behave like a jerk, trying to strong-arm you into the next  visit - even as soon as you get there -  you can always turn around and walk out.   :yes:

And even if you DO commit to something, just to shut him up, doesn't mean you have to follow  through - and you do NOT owe him an explanation ,

If you don't show up, you don't show up.  If he blows up your phone, block his number.  If he calls the police, tell them your dad is losing his marbles.  It will probably never happen again.

You have the power.  You really do.  You just don't realize it yet, because you've been conditioned to cater to his whims, all your life.

You don't HAVE to - he is a grown-ass man.  If he can't figure out how to get along in the world, it's time for him to go into a home.

:hug:

Our parents seem to think we need to be doing something all the time.  My father's famous line was "I thought you needed something to do".  Hey thanks dad.

As we have all said a million times before...GET MAD.  That will allow you to quickly pass by any guilty feelings you may have. You know when I felt guilty?  When he conned me into doing something I didn't want to do.  Then I was so mad at myself for falling for one of his tricks.

When he asks what you are doing next week (after you tell him you can't visit) tell him point blank your plans are not up for discussion.  His opinion on how you spend your time....is not important to you. Maybe throw in a quick "Dad, if you weren't so difficult/unpleasant to be around, maybe I would be here more often.  But we know you aren't going to change so I have to. And if that means staying away so be it".  Every once in awhile I would have a nice visit with my father and would think if there were more like this I would be around more.  But those were few and far between.

I'm here cheering you on from Down Under, p123. I know this is hard to say No to him. But you also know he won't change. He'll never accept your terms. So I hope you can do what you need to for your mental and physical health, and for your wife and kids. You owe your father nothing, but what you are *happy* to give, not guilted into giving.
I sometimes ask myself: What would I want to do in this situation, if I wasn't worried about what the other person would say or do. And I aim for that, no matter what the other person tries on. Because of course they're going to pull every trick out of the bag to keep you in line.
You don't deserve his treatment of you. I can see you're really angry. And that is actually a good sign. I hope you can use that anger to fight for your rights here. Because his needs do not come before yours. I know you already know all this. But I get the sense that you are almost there. Keep going. We are with you.

Yeh got to stay strong. I KNOW what hes going to say and I KNOW what hes going to say when I refuse....

Been reading a few books and I think the problem is I'm conflict-averse

Quote from: doglady on August 25, 2020, 03:19:35 AM
I'm here cheering you on from Down Under, p123. I know this is hard to say No to him. But you also know he won't change. He'll never accept your terms. So I hope you can do what you need to for your mental and physical health, and for your wife and kids. You owe your father nothing, but what you are *happy* to give, not guilted into giving.
I sometimes ask myself: What would I want to do in this situation, if I wasn't worried about what the other person would say or do. And I aim for that, no matter what the other person tries on. Because of course they're going to pull every trick out of the bag to keep you in line.
You don't deserve his treatment of you. I can see you're really angry. And that is actually a good sign. I hope you can use that anger to fight for your rights here. Because his needs do not come before yours. I know you already know all this. But I get the sense that you are almost there. Keep going. We are with you.

thanks doglady - I just know hes going to escalate things....

Last weekend I got "Oh I'm such a burden to everyone, I dont know why I've lived this long". Jeez get a grip will you!
In the past, I've had "Oh if no-one wants to help me I'll have to go into a home" Go on then!

What I'm dying to say to him is "There nothing physically wrong with you, stop moaning about everything, and get on with it a bit and make an effort"

Here's the thing about him escalating things. He will. They always do when someone starts setting firm boundaries with them. It throws off the dynamic.  He wants control. He's still got it with you and he knows it. Once he realizes you are taking it back, expect theatrics. Especially if he has borderline personality mixed in with the narcissism. Here's where your anger comes in handy. Get mad when he does it, feel that resentment, and let that cement your boundaries. Fight for your well-being. Fight for your peace. Fight for your family, your job, your sanity.

My grandmother hated it when I set firm boundaries.  What happens is they can sense a shift in you. They are used to being in control. Again, you need to get to a point where you literally don't give a shit about what your father thinks of you. That makes this process much easier. You won't care as much if he's angry with you and you will fund it as I said mildly entertaining  and nothing short of predictable. 

He's mad again? So what. Let him be mad.

He's telling you you're a lousy son? Oh well. Sorry to hear it.

He's telling you that you must visit? Keep dreaming pops. You don't control me.

I visited not one, but two ministers at church over the years to get advice on my grandmother's behavior towards me. You know what one told me? He said give her a warning. If she continues, walk out. Or in your case, politely say I need to end this call and do it. With NO guilt.
We were not put on this planet to experience this misery.

Your anger will turn to disgust like mine, and that makes it easier. It's hard though like I said when you're in frequent communication. Every phone call is a test of your patience.

May of us were conflict avoidant from childhood as well as groomed to be people pleasers. Codependent. I used to really hate conflict too but now I'm more willing to just accept that sometimes it happens and there's nothing I can do about it. Now that I've found my voice, and know that guess what, I matter too,  I find myself far more assertive with everyone. You will too once you're fully Out of the FOG. You may find other friendships falling away, like I did. I realized I had some unhealthy dynamics with other people and those friendships had to go as well. The new me wasn't putting up with them anymore the way the old me did.

In my fathers case the boundaries were set early and I told him no way I'm doing for you what I did for your mother. Hire someone. He has.. He tells people I think he's an asshole. He is not wrong about that. I think of him as a random guy who I still care about as a human being, but I have no expectations of being treated well by him, ever.  Once you start therapy you really start digging into this stuff. You can reframe relationships. You're probably still in the "well he's my father, surely he must care deep down about me, why can't he understand my point of view?" That's where you're frustration comes from. You haven't accepted who he is yet. Here's the thing though. Look at his actions. Let go of that cognitive dissonance. You want to think he's a reasonable caring father but his actions show you otherwise. It's a hard hard hard thing to accept your father really doesn't care for anyone but himself. Again, therapy can help with this process.

I rarely hear from my father but I will admit it is upsetting when I do, even still. I'm not finished with this process yet. I'd like to be full NC with him. I'm not there yet.

Quote from: p123 on August 25, 2020, 05:28:37 AM

Quote from: doglady on August 25, 2020, 03:19:35 AM
I'm here cheering you on from Down Under, p123. I know this is hard to say No to him. But you also know he won't change. He'll never accept your terms. So I hope you can do what you need to for your mental and physical health, and for your wife and kids. You owe your father nothing, but what you are *happy* to give, not guilted into giving.
I sometimes ask myself: What would I want to do in this situation, if I wasn't worried about what the other person would say or do. And I aim for that, no matter what the other person tries on. Because of course they're going to pull every trick out of the bag to keep you in line.
You don't deserve his treatment of you. I can see you're really angry. And that is actually a good sign. I hope you can use that anger to fight for your rights here. Because his needs do not come before yours. I know you already know all this. But I get the sense that you are almost there. Keep going. We are with you.

thanks doglady - I just know hes going to escalate things....

Last weekend I got "Oh I'm such a burden to everyone, I dont know why I've lived this long". Jeez get a grip will you!
In the past, I've had "Oh if no-one wants to help me I'll have to go into a home" Go on then!

What I'm dying to say to him is "There nothing physically wrong with you, stop moaning about everything, and get on with it a bit and make an effort"

Seriously you are missing perfect opportunities.  When he mentions having to go into a home....AGREE WITH HIM!!!!!  Trust me he will back pedal so fast.   When he says he is a burden you can say...if you let us have groceries delivered you would be such a burden.  He is baiting you hoping you will fall all over him assuring him he is a joy to be around.  Don't do it.

I agree - you're missing out on golden opportunities to agree with your dad and shut this crap down - for now.  Until he figures out another tactic.  :roll:

He says he's old and a burden and should go into a home - yes dad, that's right.  You need to start looking into AL if you can't care for yourself.

He says he's a burden and doesn't know why he's lived this long - again, agree and tell him he won't be so much of a burden if he has the groceries delivered.

Didi once tried, "Oh, nobody loves me!" - knowing I'd pulled away, and wanting her control back.

I said NOTHING. 

She wanted me to fawn - I refused.  I'm glad she couldn't see me rolling my eyes through the phone, so she carried on, saying nobody loved her and she had nothing to live for.

Crickets.

I then asked if she'd been outside, because it was  such a lovely day, and she could do some gardening.

BANG went the phone  and THAT was the end of THAT - for a week or so, until she tried again and I told her she was just being silly.  How's your  garden?  :ninja:

BANG went the phone - until she was in the hospital!  Oh noes!  Come now, again, some more, she's dying, again, for real this time, again, some more!   It's the Curse of the Fatal Death, again, some more!  This time, it's her stomach - or is it her liver?  Or her lymph nodes?  Oh, she can't keep this shit straight, so why should I?  :doh:

She was shameless in upping the game and pulling out all the stops, so I didn't feel bad de-escalating by stepping back, calling less, sticking to Medium Chill and occasionally agreeing that yes, she did need more help.  It's good thing she was in a hospital, where she could get it.

I was the *only* help she wanted and she hadn't figured out I'd taken that off that table, so she kept  trying and I kept deflecting, lowering contact and thinking, "Man...can't she figure this out?  It's not a game.  She's not going to "win."  This is the life of me and my FOC she's trying to mess with and that's NOT going to happen."

That's the point you have to get to with your dad, conflict-avoidant or not.  ANGER will set you free - NOT of the destructive, HULK SMASH type, where it's just mindless aggression for the sake of having a mad.

This is *constructive* anger which can be quite freeing - and a catalyst for positive change.

Your dad can throw everything he's got at you and you'll handle it like a boss, because you're emotionally checked-out  enough to do so.  8-)

:hug:

Oh good heavens

Quotenobody loved her and she had nothing to live for.

I swear they've all got the same play book! I've heard that exact line before. Exactly!!!! I countered with "Welp, guess I'm chopped liver then." Usually worked pretty well. But still.  :stars:

Constructive anger is amazing, p123. It really will help you be free. I started to get mad because M was getting pushy about my pregnancy and how we were doing things, and especially about how much information I was NOT giving her. How's the pregnancy, how's the baby... Met with "Fine." Most people would be happy at that, but our personality disordered family members have to push. Are you sure nothing's wrong?! Yep, all fine.

I share, just to show you you're not alone. And you're really not. Because they all pull from the same book of quotes and plays. They all play the same, dumb tricks. They all want what they want and our wants be darned. :no:

It's hard, it's painful. But he'll never put you first. Not you, not your wife, not your kids. He's number one in his own life, and what a sad and unfulfilling outlook it must ultimately be. They never get to know the joy we feel for our own kids, because we love our kids just for them and not for what they can do for us.

I know it's hard to look at your dad and say, "Well, he's not right in his mind, and this is what I can expect from him forever." But most likely it is true. You can only act accordingly, by deciding how much you're going to let him get to you. Right now, seems like he winds you up pretty good. My mom wound me up pretty good too. Until I stopped calling her. Yup. I stopped. She started calling me, for the first time since I moved out of her house, but even then it was about once a month. Which, as I healed and learned, even that was too much. But that's me. You have to do what works for you. You can only control your own actions, after all. Your own choices. Your own healing journey. :bigwink:

Quote from: Adrianna on August 25, 2020, 06:36:45 AM
Here's the thing about him escalating things. He will. They always do when someone starts setting firm boundaries with them. It throws off the dynamic.  He wants control. He's still got it with you and he knows it. Once he realizes you are taking it back, expect theatrics. Especially if he has borderline personality mixed in with the narcissism. Here's where your anger comes in handy. Get mad when he does it, feel that resentment, and let that cement your boundaries. Fight for your well-being. Fight for your peace. Fight for your family, your job, your sanity.

My grandmother hated it when I set firm boundaries.  What happens is they can sense a shift in you. They are used to being in control. Again, you need to get to a point where you literally don't give a shit about what your father thinks of you. That makes this process much easier. You won't care as much if he's angry with you and you will fund it as I said mildly entertaining  and nothing short of predictable. 

He's mad again? So what. Let him be mad.

He's telling you you're a lousy son? Oh well. Sorry to hear it.

He's telling you that you must visit? Keep dreaming pops. You don't control me.

I visited not one, but two ministers at church over the years to get advice on my grandmother's behavior towards me. You know what one told me? He said give her a warning. If she continues, walk out. Or in your case, politely say I need to end this call and do it. With NO guilt.
We were not put on this planet to experience this misery.

Your anger will turn to disgust like mine, and that makes it easier. It's hard though like I said when you're in frequent communication. Every phone call is a test of your patience.

May of us were conflict avoidant from childhood as well as groomed to be people pleasers. Codependent. I used to really hate conflict too but now I'm more willing to just accept that sometimes it happens and there's nothing I can do about it. Now that I've found my voice, and know that guess what, I matter too,  I find myself far more assertive with everyone. You will too once you're fully Out of the FOG. You may find other friendships falling away, like I did. I realized I had some unhealthy dynamics with other people and those friendships had to go as well. The new me wasn't putting up with them anymore the way the old me did.

In my fathers case the boundaries were set early and I told him no way I'm doing for you what I did for your mother. Hire someone. He has.. He tells people I think he's an asshole. He is not wrong about that. I think of him as a random guy who I still care about as a human being, but I have no expectations of being treated well by him, ever.  Once you start therapy you really start digging into this stuff. You can reframe relationships. You're probably still in the "well he's my father, surely he must care deep down about me, why can't he understand my point of view?" That's where you're frustration comes from. You haven't accepted who he is yet. Here's the thing though. Look at his actions. Let go of that cognitive dissonance. You want to think he's a reasonable caring father but his actions show you otherwise. It's a hard hard hard thing to accept your father really doesn't care for anyone but himself. Again, therapy can help with this process.

I rarely hear from my father but I will admit it is upsetting when I do, even still. I'm not finished with this process yet. I'd like to be full NC with him. I'm not there yet.

Thanks Adrianna - so much of this rings true for me.

Quote from: lkdrymom on August 25, 2020, 04:51:15 PM

Quote from: p123 on August 25, 2020, 05:28:37 AM

Quote from: doglady on August 25, 2020, 03:19:35 AM
I'm here cheering you on from Down Under, p123. I know this is hard to say No to him. But you also know he won't change. He'll never accept your terms. So I hope you can do what you need to for your mental and physical health, and for your wife and kids. You owe your father nothing, but what you are *happy* to give, not guilted into giving.
I sometimes ask myself: What would I want to do in this situation, if I wasn't worried about what the other person would say or do. And I aim for that, no matter what the other person tries on. Because of course they're going to pull every trick out of the bag to keep you in line.
You don't deserve his treatment of you. I can see you're really angry. And that is actually a good sign. I hope you can use that anger to fight for your rights here. Because his needs do not come before yours. I know you already know all this. But I get the sense that you are almost there. Keep going. We are with you.

thanks doglady - I just know hes going to escalate things....

Last weekend I got "Oh I'm such a burden to everyone, I dont know why I've lived this long". Jeez get a grip will you!
In the past, I've had "Oh if no-one wants to help me I'll have to go into a home" Go on then!

What I'm dying to say to him is "There nothing physically wrong with you, stop moaning about everything, and get on with it a bit and make an effort"

Seriously you are missing perfect opportunities.  When he mentions having to go into a home....AGREE WITH HIM!!!!!  Trust me he will back pedal so fast.   When he says he is a burden you can say...if you let us have groceries delivered you would be such a burden.  He is baiting you hoping you will fall all over him assuring him he is a joy to be around.  Don't do it.

ha ha you're not wrong there!

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 25, 2020, 11:02:33 PM
I agree - you're missing out on golden opportunities to agree with your dad and shut this crap down - for now.  Until he figures out another tactic.  :roll:

He says he's old and a burden and should go into a home - yes dad, that's right.  You need to start looking into AL if you can't care for yourself.

He says he's a burden and doesn't know why he's lived this long - again, agree and tell him he won't be so much of a burden if he has the groceries delivered.

Didi once tried, "Oh, nobody loves me!" - knowing I'd pulled away, and wanting her control back.

I said NOTHING. 

She wanted me to fawn - I refused.  I'm glad she couldn't see me rolling my eyes through the phone, so she carried on, saying nobody loved her and she had nothing to live for.

Crickets.

I then asked if she'd been outside, because it was  such a lovely day, and she could do some gardening.

BANG went the phone  and THAT was the end of THAT - for a week or so, until she tried again and I told her she was just being silly.  How's your  garden?  :ninja:

BANG went the phone - until she was in the hospital!  Oh noes!  Come now, again, some more, she's dying, again, for real this time, again, some more!   It's the Curse of the Fatal Death, again, some more!  This time, it's her stomach - or is it her liver?  Or her lymph nodes?  Oh, she can't keep this shit straight, so why should I?  :doh:

She was shameless in upping the game and pulling out all the stops, so I didn't feel bad de-escalating by stepping back, calling less, sticking to Medium Chill and occasionally agreeing that yes, she did need more help.  It's good thing she was in a hospital, where she could get it.

I was the *only* help she wanted and she hadn't figured out I'd taken that off that table, so she kept  trying and I kept deflecting, lowering contact and thinking, "Man...can't she figure this out?  It's not a game.  She's not going to "win."  This is the life of me and my FOC she's trying to mess with and that's NOT going to happen."

That's the point you have to get to with your dad, conflict-avoidant or not.  ANGER will set you free - NOT of the destructive, HULK SMASH type, where it's just mindless aggression for the sake of having a mad.

This is *constructive* anger which can be quite freeing - and a catalyst for positive change.

Your dad can throw everything he's got at you and you'll handle it like a boss, because you're emotionally checked-out  enough to do so.  8-)

:hug:

Oh yes I am so angry at the moment. I just know it'll be another attempt from him....

Im going tonight - wish me luck!

p123,

This is so truly hard. I would consider throttling your interactions: you will take his call three days a week: days and times you select. At any other time he goes unanswered to voicemail. Texts are dealt with on the same three days a week. If you limit the number of times a week you engage, then truly the "never-ending battle" will end, and you'll be able to focus on your own home.

I don't want to make this sound easy. It really isn't. So just walk through how it would work. Imagine you are watching a television movie made about you in the future. It goes like this:

Monday episode: Twenty-minute conversation. Several topics end with you saying, "dad, I won't discuss that any further."

Wednesday episode: Hour long conversation. Nice exchanges, punctuated by "dad, I won't discuss that any further." This one ends dramatically. You've interrupted him to say "dad, I've told you I won't discuss that further today. I can see you really want to talk about only that. So I'll let you go for tonight. We love you!" The scene fades out with dad staring at his silent phone and beginning to call back, but getting no answer.

Friday epsiode: Half hour talk. Dad complains a lot. You say "that must be hard" a lot. You are reading the news online while listening. Call ends with you saying you'll see him Saturday for that one errand you agreed to, and you'll have a hard stop after that, due to other obligations.

There are no other episodes. Texts are addressed during the next regularly scheduled episode. Calls go to voicemail. Refusal to change the topic upon request politely but firmly ends the call.

Imagine what a nice show that would be to watch: no endless, circular arguments; no forced marches to the phone or to his home or to the grocer. Also, no nice and friendly old man, sad to say. This won't make him happier. He may be beyond happy. But this is a show you could live with. Adjust it, and make it work for you. I made up the details, but they are yours to write. Get it right for you and then really imagine it. Imagine the ignored texts and voicemails. Imagine letting the phone just ring. Imagine the time-boxed conversations that never go in circles more than once before being abruptly, but politely, ended. Imagine what would be required of you. Discuss it with your wife and build up your strength.

You can do this.

Last nights visit - give myself 6.5/10 :-)

After about 20 mins,

Dad: "Im so depressed I'm stuck in, I've had no fresh air, can you visit this weekend and take me out for a ride in the car?"
Me: "Sorry I'm busy with the kids"
Dad: "Can't you bring X (my youngest) with you?" (This is pretty rich because he has no interest in my kids at all and we've had this conversation twice now how its boring for a 7 year old)
Me: "No Dad we're doing something"
Dad: "But I'm SO DEPRESSED"
Me: "We've had this conversation, you need to speak to your doctor maybe"
Dad: "No no no - I've spoken to a few of my friends and they're the same we're all stuck in"
Me: "Problem sorted - if they;re the same why not all go out somewhere togetether?"
Dad: <Silence>
Dad: "So what about weekends when you're wife doesnt work? You can take me out then" (She works 6 out of 8 weekends)
Me: "Dad shes not going be impressed if the one weekend shes not working, I leave her with the kids and spend the day with you"
Dad: <Silence>
Dad: "OK so you're coming in the week instead"
Me: "I will"
Dad: "OK at least its going to be every week"
Me: "We'll see" (yes I should have said no!!!!)
Dad: "Im scared to ask you these things now" (GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Me: <Silence>

Hopefully, progress here!

That was a little progress.  Yes you should have said NO to the every week.  And the silence answers were very good.  He does know how to play you.

When he said he was scared to ask you these things, that was the bait. You didn't take it so that's progress.

If you were fully in the fog you wold have soothed him and said something like "don't say that", "you can always ask me", etc.

Silence speaks volumes.

Silence is a good one. I've tried that too with my dad.
After my silence, there was a tumbleweed moment, then he actually answered his own query with the answer he wanted me to say! ( about who/ what he reckons is 'to blame' for the recent Covid spikes.)

So then I said I didnt know.

" I don't know Dad ."

Followed by more silence from me ( no JADING) is also extremely effective and it's protective.
"I don't know"
is not the introduction to a huge analysis  from us, that they can devour and throw back at us and repeat to others. 

What my dad does is bring up a topic and try to force me to talk about an opinion he has, then he will flip that and report his view as my 'view' to others. All I had to do was engage.
  In this way they stir and spread harm without taking responsibility. Nsister and nbro did this too.
I think your dad tries to do it to convince YOU that YOU have said you will see him three times a week.

So it's a big fat NO.

They project something, and if you humour them just a little, just for a quiet life, maybe just don't argue it too much because they are old after all, then they pass that BS on to other family as having come from you.
In this way the poison and malicious gossip thry enjoy so much gets released, and they get to keep their hands clean. Cue halo.
In this way your dad is also attempting to gaslight you into actually thinking you've said you'll come every week, or whatever.
So it's a Big NO that's needed followed by ending the call.

Now, If my dad says anything derogatory about anyone/ anything I JUST DON'T SAY ANYTHING.
If I do engage I'll get quoted to the other PDs in the family as being the instigator of the horrible remarks.
So it's silence. Or it " I don't know." It's the complete answer.
Or it's "NO".

My dad loathes it but I use these often. When followed by these,
his circular argument which was poised to start, dies on its feet.
These tools do work.
It can feel really odd, we are so geared/ programmed  toward

......explanation.

Explanation would be fine in a healthy relationship, though even in my healthy relationships I can suddenly find myself tending toward JADING!
Husband has pointed it out.
Son has pointed it out.
My over explaining and worrisome ness.  :roll:
Sometimes they laugh!
No -one healthy, expects it.!
They are complete sentence. They are a complete answer. 

ugh, p123,

That a painfully familiar conversation, especially the 'i'm so depressed why don't you take me for a drive?' part.

One thing that I found helped with the repetitive questions was to say: "Is there a reason you keep asking me the same question over and over?"
Undoubtably the answer would be: "well you never really answered me".
To which I'd say: "I absolutely did and I'm not answering it again."
Sometimes Negatron would then just repeat the answer, because she damn well know, she just don't like it and figured if she kept asking then maybe it would change.
Other times she would say 'so you're just not going to answer me?' and then I'd say 'you already know the answer' and change the subject.
Or you can always say, "I'm really worried about your memory, you keep asking me the same thing over and over. Perhaps you do need to look into assisted living."
That might get you a temporary reprieve.

However you handle it, its absolutely infuriating. In Negatron's case, she was looking to start a fight, not sure if your dad is the same or not.

Talk to your doctor! Yes, great job!!!!

And silence is golden, makes them marinate in the ridiculousness that just came out of their own mouth.

And saying no, you won't bring your daughter. You are protecting her, p123. You're being a good dad when you remove her from these situations. I want you to know that. :thumbup: She does not need to see, or hear, or experience your dad and his problems or the crappy way he treats you.

You did a great job!   :righton:

And in answer to your other thread, about bringing your DD - NO.  Absolutely not.  And you shot that down beautifully, too!  (You're doing something together or have plans - always be VAGUE!)  :ninja:

Remember - just because you said you'd come next week, doesn't mean it's written in stone and you HAVE to.  "Something" could come up - like you not wanting to.  :yes:

I swear - they really do pass around the same playbook.  Didi once told me she was afraid to ask me anything.

I saw right through it and said, "You can ask anything you want - but you might get an answer you don't like."

It's meant to make you feel bad - don't let it, and if your dad starts trying to ask the same thing, over and over, because he doesn't like the answer, don't be afraid to shut that crap down.

"Asked and answered." 
"That's enough, dad.  I said no." 
"Dad, no matter how many times you ask, the answer is still no." 
"Dad - I'm really worried about your memory and think you need to be assessed for Alzheimer's." 

Your dad will find new and interesting ways to kick up a fuss - you know him best, so you can best predict what he's most likely to get up to - and do NOTHING when he does it except call less and have even less involvement in his life.   :yes:

No, they don't like being told "no" and act like they've never heard the word before, especially from people they've groomed to be the perfect servants, who don't talk or fight back.

But we get to a point we don't like being used and manipulated even more, and are determined to pry their tentacles off us.

Keep up the good  work and dig your heels in for the long haul - unless you significantly lower contact or go NC, the ride is going to start to get pretty damned bumpy - especially with the days getting shorter and colder, and COVID no closer to being given das  boot - or immunized away.

:hug:

Quote from: lkdrymom on August 27, 2020, 05:35:10 AM
That was a little progress.  Yes you should have said NO to the every week.  And the silence answers were very good.  He does know how to play you.

I know - I missed that one!

Quote from: Adrianna on August 27, 2020, 06:11:53 AM
When he said he was scared to ask you these things, that was the bait. You didn't take it so that's progress.

If you were fully in the fog you wold have soothed him and said something like "don't say that", "you can always ask me", etc.

Silence speaks volumes.

Yep. No way am I saying that. Well aware of what he was up to then!

He also mentioned - and this MUST be the 5th or 6th time that "you're brother rings me every night to see how I am no matter how busy he is". Not falling for that.

Quote from: Andeza on August 27, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
Talk to your doctor! Yes, great job!!!!

And silence is golden, makes them marinate in the ridiculousness that just came out of their own mouth.

And saying no, you won't bring your daughter. You are protecting her, p123. You're being a good dad when you remove her from these situations. I want you to know that. :thumbup: She does not need to see, or hear, or experience your dad and his problems or the crappy way he treats you.

I know - if you're depressed (properly) you need to see the doctor. (I know this!)

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 28, 2020, 12:00:56 AM
You did a great job!   :righton:

And in answer to your other thread, about bringing your DD - NO.  Absolutely not.  And you shot that down beautifully, too!  (You're doing something together or have plans - always be VAGUE!)  :ninja:

Remember - just because you said you'd come next week, doesn't mean it's written in stone and you HAVE to.  "Something" could come up - like you not wanting to.  :yes:

I swear - they really do pass around the same playbook.  Didi once told me she was afraid to ask me anything.

I saw right through it and said, "You can ask anything you want - but you might get an answer you don't like."

It's meant to make you feel bad - don't let it, and if your dad starts trying to ask the same thing, over and over, because he doesn't like the answer, don't be afraid to shut that crap down.

"Asked and answered." 
"That's enough, dad.  I said no." 
"Dad, no matter how many times you ask, the answer is still no." 
"Dad - I'm really worried about your memory and think you need to be assessed for Alzheimer's." 

Your dad will find new and interesting ways to kick up a fuss - you know him best, so you can best predict what he's most likely to get up to - and do NOTHING when he does it except call less and have even less involvement in his life.   :yes:

No, they don't like being told "no" and act like they've never heard the word before, especially from people they've groomed to be the perfect servants, who don't talk or fight back.

But we get to a point we don't like being used and manipulated even more, and are determined to pry their tentacles off us.

Keep up the good  work and dig your heels in for the long haul - unless you significantly lower contact or go NC, the ride is going to start to get pretty damned bumpy - especially with the days getting shorter and colder, and COVID no closer to being given das  boot - or immunized away.

:hug:

Thanks WI - yes as winter draws in hes going to get worse I think.....

Been thinking about his statement that "hes scared to ask me". For a start, I have never shouted back or got angry I've just calmly said no can do.

I was thinking if the same happened with wifes mum. (OK shes a PITA but nowhere near like Dad)

If she said "can you take me there on Saturday?"
Wife may make something up but would say "sorry mum I can't I'm going x"
MIL would say "OH ok I'll ask you're brother"

Dad doesnt ask - he pleads. Its almost as if you have to do it. Its not a request, its an order. If you say no, I've often had "cant you try" or "can you do it just for me". In essence, he has in the past asked me to let other people down and put him first. I well remember the time when I said "No I promised my wife" and hes said "surely she understands that I need you".

I didn't rise to it but I'm glad hes too scared to ask LIKE THAT.

I'm hopeful now I've shutdown the weekend thing inc daughter visit. Hes not going to like but hes backed off. He does that. Looks I'm down to weekly visit. Could be worse - it doesnt affect my family at all so no big issues there.
I will  be working on that though - once a week is way too much to put up with his rubbish.

This week I had 20 mins of his health problems ranging from deadly hayfever, going for a wee too many times, excruciating pain in his legs (still doesnt take all his painkillers).

Hi p123,

Quote from: p123 on August 28, 2020, 03:39:22 AM
Been thinking about his statement that "hes scared to ask me". For a start, I have never shouted back or got angry I've just calmly said no can do.

That comment your dad made that "he's scared to ask you" is very passive-aggressive, IMHO.  There is a seed of truth in that comment-- he is scared, "scared" that you will say "No".  I think he's recognizing your assertiveness.  And he's pissed about it.  And he's implying, with his PA comment, that you are to be feared, like a bully.  So it's a dig.  You ignored the comment and good on you.  But it was a well-placed arrow designed to take you down.

You can tell me I'm full of it here, but I see a pattern of behavior with your dad:  your dad says things that annoy or anger you.  You push back-- a little, not a lot-- then he backs off.  A little time passes.  You buy yourself some time.   He comes at you again.  Repeat.

So you find yourself putting out brush fires, so to speak, but you haven't contained the "fire".  I have been in a similar situation with my NM and it is very difficult.  For me, it came down to survival.  Was I willing to just keep on in that pattern of letting NM snipe and me beating down the brush fires?  I did that for about a year and a half.  Nothing changed.  Same ole same ole.  My fear was still there.  It didn't go away.  I would say to myself that I was okay and I could contain her, but the reality was that every time she digged at me, the resentment grew.  It grew and grew until I finally had had enough, and I cut contact.

I wish I had a Magic Wand that I could hand you to wave over your dad and make things better.  That after waving that wand, your dad would recognize what a good son you are and stop his endless misbehavior.  And downright meanness to you and your family.  But I don't have that. 

So all I can do is say that I understand your reluctance to confront your dad and basically draw a line in the sand.  But until you do, I think you will be on that hamster wheel, where he pushes and pushes and you push back.  But nothing ever changes. 

I think you really do have the courage within to stand up to your dad.  You stood up to your brother.  Okay, then.  Summon that strength and tell your dad what you are willing to do, and give him a FIRM "No" when he tries to trample your boundaries.  Good luck!

They are either the Arrogant Perp who acts  all entitled and issues commands, or the apparent other extreme, the victim who is needy.
Both garner attention- unless we put up boundaries.
The reference to feelings 'scared' of us, yes I've had that told to me in a slightly different context ( UBPD mum told me UNPD SIL was scared of me. It was in my birthday and they'd invited me. It was following some problems with GC Brother and his appallingly entitled wife. Mum was telling me why she hadn't come to the tea party. I think mum was deep down cross with her but of course that couldn't be articulated, so she blamed me.
It's meant to upset and unsettle us greatly, so that we straightaway get back in line and comply with their wishes.

You've not done a thing to evoke that reaction. Not a thing. But it made you wonder and second guess yourself, and that's gaslighting.
They may well FEEL scared when they see us coming Out of the FOG. And a 'No' to them IS conflict. It just is. We have to understand that as well. Then do it anyway!

Quote from: illogical on August 28, 2020, 04:42:41 PM
Hi p123,

Quote from: p123 on August 28, 2020, 03:39:22 AM
Been thinking about his statement that "hes scared to ask me". For a start, I have never shouted back or got angry I've just calmly said no can do.

That comment your dad made that "he's scared to ask you" is very passive-aggressive, IMHO.  There is a seed of truth in that comment-- he is scared, "scared" that you will say "No".  I think he's recognizing your assertiveness.  And he's pissed about it.  And he's implying, with his PA comment, that you are to be feared, like a bully.  So it's a dig.  You ignored the comment and good on you.  But it was a well-placed arrow designed to take you down.

You can tell me I'm full of it here, but I see a pattern of behavior with your dad:  your dad says things that annoy or anger you.  You push back-- a little, not a lot-- then he backs off.  A little time passes.  You buy yourself some time.   He comes at you again.  Repeat.

So you find yourself putting out brush fires, so to speak, but you haven't contained the "fire".  I have been in a similar situation with my NM and it is very difficult.  For me, it came down to survival.  Was I willing to just keep on in that pattern of letting NM snipe and me beating down the brush fires?  I did that for about a year and a half.  Nothing changed.  Same ole same ole.  My fear was still there.  It didn't go away.  I would say to myself that I was okay and I could contain her, but the reality was that every time she digged at me, the resentment grew.  It grew and grew until I finally had had enough, and I cut contact.

I wish I had a Magic Wand that I could hand you to wave over your dad and make things better.  That after waving that wand, your dad would recognize what a good son you are and stop his endless misbehavior.  And downright meanness to you and your family.  But I don't have that. 

So all I can do is say that I understand your reluctance to confront your dad and basically draw a line in the sand.  But until you do, I think you will be on that hamster wheel, where he pushes and pushes and you push back.  But nothing ever changes. 

I think you really do have the courage within to stand up to your dad.  You stood up to your brother.  Okay, then.  Summon that strength and tell your dad what you are willing to do, and give him a FIRM "No" when he tries to trample your boundaries.  Good luck!

Yeh makes sense... Yes hes good at the "poor old me" act if he doesnt get his way..... Didnt think of it like that. I suppose I'm the "bad son" who he cant even speak to now. Like I said the way he asks is beyond. He doesnt "ask" he pleads then wont take no for an answer anyway.

That was  Didi, too - she'd TELL me what I was  doing  - "You're picking me up and we're going out for a meal, then to visit  your father."

When I 'd tell her I couldn't get away, even over the phone, you could literally see  and hear  the wheels spinning.

Her:  "But we're going for a meal!"

Note:  that only made it WORSE because it meant spending 2+ hours in a restaurant, listening to her bitch about food and  gossip.   :aaauuugh:

Me:  "I have food here.  I can't get away.  I have responsibilities."

Her:  "But..."

Me:  "No but.  I have to go.  I'm really busy."

Hang up thinking, "Strewth!"  :blink:

The next call would be her promising to take me to a middle-of-the road lobster place, so I'd tell her I already ate - she'd accuse me of LYING and demand to know what I could have had.  I'd tell her it was none of her business, but it was delicious.

The NEXT call would be her promising to take me shopping.  Oh, spiffing!  She's the one who loves shopping and that's 4-more mind-numbing hours with her.  (Seriously - I hate shopping and I don't think there were too many people happier than me when Amazon became a one-stop-shop.)  :woohoo:

I'd tell her there was nothing I needed or wanted, and I had to hang up, so she'd call back later and it would go, "Please!?"  "Please!????"

Me:  "No. I can't, now stop it because that's not going to work.  You're not a child."

Her:  "Yes, MOTHER!"

She'd try to lock me into tomorrow - I'd tell her my *entire week* was booked up, so no.  If she wanted to visit Ray, she'd have to find another ride.

Instantly, she'd snot that she didn't want to BOTHER them - so I'd tell her I didn't know what else to suggest, but I had to get back to my tasks.

BANG would go the phone.

I'd look at the clock and gog. It was only 4PM!   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

We had a land-line without blocking features and an answering machine, so I'd close the door to this room and give it the finger when I'd hear the phone ringing ten, twenty times.   :evil2:

The next day, she'd try AGAIN - but I wasn't going to answer the phone until WELL after visiting hours  and  shopping centers were closed   - if then.

Once the phone started ringing every half hour or so - with NO message - it only made me more determined to NOT answer.  I'd even crow, "Fuck off!" as I walked by the room.  :bigwink:

Day three- same as the last!  A non-stop barrage of phone calls I didn't answer until 11 PM, when she'd tell me she thought I was DEAD and I'd calmly reply I was BUSY - she told me nobody could be THAT busy and she'd do anything to talk to HER mother on the phone again.   :dramaqueen: :violin:

I told her I WAS that busy and I had no way of knowing it was her if she didn't leave a message.

Well, I HAD to take her to visit Ray.

I told her it wasn't happening and to call a cab, Uber, a friend or the senior van.  She told me she "just couldn't" and I told her I had to go.

Again - meals!  Shopping!  Both shot down and then straight up wheedling, like she forgot it didn't work - I told her no, and if she didn't stop, I was hanging up.

She didn't stop - I hung up.   :ninja:

The next day - silence.  I knew she was up to something and I was right because the day after that she told the machine they were releasing Ray and I had to pick him up in a tone of voice that was like, "HA HA!  I win!"

I dove on the phone, told her I had too much going on and he was going to have to take a cab.

She GASPED and asked if I was sure.  I said yes and she slammed the phone down.

Here's the kicker - you'd think she'd learn, but NO!  Every single time Ray was in the hospital, it would go like this until I just stopped answering the phone after the first attempt, and later unplugged it until the time of night I knew my DH would be calling (he was always away on business and I was alarmed to find out I was the one arming her with info!  Once I stopped, she was a pretty good guesser!)

The only "logic" I can see at work here is, "It used to work!   It  has to work NOW!  Oh, what' s wrong with that stupid boy/girl!?"  :pissed:

Yeah - we're defective because they're not getting their way.  :roll:

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Let your dad go through his whining and machinations and remember - your phone BLOCKS.  Once you say NO, you don't have to listen to a bit of it.

He'll never learn, but at least it will be blessed quiet.   8-)

:hug:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
That was  Didi, too - she'd TELL me what I was  doing  - "You're picking me up and we're going out for a meal, then to visit  your father."

When I 'd tell her I couldn't get away, even over the phone, you could literally see  and hear  the wheels spinning.

Her:  "But we're going for a meal!"

Note:  that only made it WORSE because it meant spending 2+ hours in a restaurant, listening to her bitch about food and  gossip.   :aaauuugh:

Me:  "I have food here.  I can't get away.  I have responsibilities."

Her:  "But..."

Me:  "No but.  I have to go.  I'm really busy."

Hang up thinking, "Strewth!"  :blink:

The next call would be her promising to take me to a middle-of-the road lobster place, so I'd tell her I already ate - she'd accuse me of LYING and demand to know what I could have had.  I'd tell her it was none of her business, but it was delicious.

The NEXT call would be her promising to take me shopping.  Oh, spiffing!  She's the one who loves shopping and that's 4-more mind-numbing hours with her.  (Seriously - I hate shopping and I don't think there were too many people happier than me when Amazon became a one-stop-shop.)  :woohoo:

I'd tell her there was nothing I needed or wanted, and I had to hang up, so she'd call back later and it would go, "Please!?"  "Please!????"

Me:  "No. I can't, now stop it because that's not going to work.  You're not a child."

Her:  "Yes, MOTHER!"

She'd try to lock me into tomorrow - I'd tell her my *entire week* was booked up, so no.  If she wanted to visit Ray, she'd have to find another ride.

Instantly, she'd snot that she didn't want to BOTHER them - so I'd tell her I didn't know what else to suggest, but I had to get back to my tasks.

BANG would go the phone.

I'd look at the clock and gog. It was only 4PM!   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

We had a land-line without blocking features and an answering machine, so I'd close the door to this room and give it the finger when I'd hear the phone ringing ten, twenty times.   :evil2:

The next day, she'd try AGAIN - but I wasn't going to answer the phone until WELL after visiting hours  and  shopping centers were closed   - if then.

Once the phone started ringing every half hour or so - with NO message - it only made me more determined to NOT answer.  I'd even crow, "Fuck off!" as I walked by the room.  :bigwink:

Day three- same as the last!  A non-stop barrage of phone calls I didn't answer until 11 PM, when she'd tell me she thought I was DEAD and I'd calmly reply I was BUSY - she told me nobody could be THAT busy and she'd do anything to talk to HER mother on the phone again.   :dramaqueen: :violin:

I told her I WAS that busy and I had no way of knowing it was her if she didn't leave a message.

Well, I HAD to take her to visit Ray.

I told her it wasn't happening and to call a cab, Uber, a friend or the senior van.  She told me she "just couldn't" and I told her I had to go.

Again - meals!  Shopping!  Both shot down and then straight up wheedling, like she forgot it didn't work - I told her no, and if she didn't stop, I was hanging up.

She didn't stop - I hung up.   :ninja:

The next day - silence.  I knew she was up to something and I was right because the day after that she told the machine they were releasing Ray and I had to pick him up in a tone of voice that was like, "HA HA!  I win!"

I dove on the phone, told her I had too much going on and he was going to have to take a cab.

She GASPED and asked if I was sure.  I said yes and she slammed the phone down.

Here's the kicker - you'd think she'd learn, but NO!  Every single time Ray was in the hospital, it would go like this until I just stopped answering the phone after the first attempt, and later unplugged it until the time of night I knew my DH would be calling (he was always away on business and I was alarmed to find out I was the one arming her with info!  Once I stopped, she was a pretty good guesser!)

The only "logic" I can see at work here is, "It used to work!   It  has to work NOW!  Oh, what' s wrong with that stupid boy/girl!?"  :pissed:

Yeah - we're defective because they're not getting their way.  :roll:

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Let your dad go through his whining and machinations and remember - your phone BLOCKS.  Once you say NO, you don't have to listen to a bit of it.

He'll never learn, but at least it will be blessed quiet.   8-)

:hug:

What WI said!

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on August 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
That was  Didi, too - she'd TELL me what I was  doing  - "You're picking me up and we're going out for a meal, then to visit  your father."

When I 'd tell her I couldn't get away, even over the phone, you could literally see  and hear  the wheels spinning.

Her:  "But we're going for a meal!"

Note:  that only made it WORSE because it meant spending 2+ hours in a restaurant, listening to her bitch about food and  gossip.   :aaauuugh:

Me:  "I have food here.  I can't get away.  I have responsibilities."

Her:  "But..."

Me:  "No but.  I have to go.  I'm really busy."

Hang up thinking, "Strewth!"  :blink:

The next call would be her promising to take me to a middle-of-the road lobster place, so I'd tell her I already ate - she'd accuse me of LYING and demand to know what I could have had.  I'd tell her it was none of her business, but it was delicious.

The NEXT call would be her promising to take me shopping.  Oh, spiffing!  She's the one who loves shopping and that's 4-more mind-numbing hours with her.  (Seriously - I hate shopping and I don't think there were too many people happier than me when Amazon became a one-stop-shop.)  :woohoo:

I'd tell her there was nothing I needed or wanted, and I had to hang up, so she'd call back later and it would go, "Please!?"  "Please!????"

Me:  "No. I can't, now stop it because that's not going to work.  You're not a child."

Her:  "Yes, MOTHER!"

She'd try to lock me into tomorrow - I'd tell her my *entire week* was booked up, so no.  If she wanted to visit Ray, she'd have to find another ride.

Instantly, she'd snot that she didn't want to BOTHER them - so I'd tell her I didn't know what else to suggest, but I had to get back to my tasks.

BANG would go the phone.

I'd look at the clock and gog. It was only 4PM!   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

We had a land-line without blocking features and an answering machine, so I'd close the door to this room and give it the finger when I'd hear the phone ringing ten, twenty times.   :evil2:

The next day, she'd try AGAIN - but I wasn't going to answer the phone until WELL after visiting hours  and  shopping centers were closed   - if then.

Once the phone started ringing every half hour or so - with NO message - it only made me more determined to NOT answer.  I'd even crow, "Fuck off!" as I walked by the room.  :bigwink:

Day three- same as the last!  A non-stop barrage of phone calls I didn't answer until 11 PM, when she'd tell me she thought I was DEAD and I'd calmly reply I was BUSY - she told me nobody could be THAT busy and she'd do anything to talk to HER mother on the phone again.   :dramaqueen: :violin:

I told her I WAS that busy and I had no way of knowing it was her if she didn't leave a message.

Well, I HAD to take her to visit Ray.

I told her it wasn't happening and to call a cab, Uber, a friend or the senior van.  She told me she "just couldn't" and I told her I had to go.

Again - meals!  Shopping!  Both shot down and then straight up wheedling, like she forgot it didn't work - I told her no, and if she didn't stop, I was hanging up.

She didn't stop - I hung up.   :ninja:

The next day - silence.  I knew she was up to something and I was right because the day after that she told the machine they were releasing Ray and I had to pick him up in a tone of voice that was like, "HA HA!  I win!"

I dove on the phone, told her I had too much going on and he was going to have to take a cab.

She GASPED and asked if I was sure.  I said yes and she slammed the phone down.

Here's the kicker - you'd think she'd learn, but NO!  Every single time Ray was in the hospital, it would go like this until I just stopped answering the phone after the first attempt, and later unplugged it until the time of night I knew my DH would be calling (he was always away on business and I was alarmed to find out I was the one arming her with info!  Once I stopped, she was a pretty good guesser!)

The only "logic" I can see at work here is, "It used to work!   It  has to work NOW!  Oh, what' s wrong with that stupid boy/girl!?"  :pissed:

Yeah - we're defective because they're not getting their way.  :roll:

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Let your dad go through his whining and machinations and remember - your phone BLOCKS.  Once you say NO, you don't have to listen to a bit of it.

He'll never learn, but at least it will be blessed quiet.   8-)

:hug:

Yes very similar. He just cannot see how I can possibly say no.
I've done that in the past. unplugged the house phone. Many times.....

Its not just requests though - HE HAS TO KNOW EVERYTHING.

Remember the time I had a chest infection? Sure I mentioned it. He phoned me EVERY day. I'd lost my voice and didnt want to speak to him. (I was so bad I didnt go into the office to see my client so no pay for the day - thats severe for me!).
So I told him not to ring, I needed rest, I'd call him in a day or two. Nope. 11am I'm asleep, hes ringing. I ignore it. 70+ times he rings. Then my brother starts ringing. Then I get facebook messages. Then I get abusive messages from brother "why am I being so selfish and making dad worry". Then he text the same to my wife (who was in work).
This is all before 4pm.

I was not impressed.... This is Dad all over. He has to be "in charge" and know everything.... His excuse "but I was worried about you"

He's awful.
My dad at least backs off if I say I'm ill.
Your dad is relentless.
It's like he physically wants to walk in your shoes, knowing and seeing your life.
Ironic then they they can never empathise with us while in those shoes!
In fact, the opposite. They criticise and inform where we are going wrong .
I actually realised I'd never be good enough so I gave up.
Dad keeps mentioning mums grave. I haven't been there for a while. J don't allow myself to feel bad about that. I remind myself that I'll go when I feel I want to go.  I don't jump on the competition train that the other sibs are all on regarding attention to the grave. I used to be on that train. I'm not now.
Just dropping the rope, the mike, getting offa the train, whatever way you wanna put it.
I just no longer care whether dad is pleased with me or not.  I no longer care if sibs think I don't see dad enough, don't go to mum's grave enough, don't come to the appalling, excuse-for-abuse  family meals they put on.
Dad talks about a huge get together when things are 'back to normal.'
Wonderful. Have a nice time because I won't be there. I used to get anxiety for days leading up to them then I'd get abuse at the meal.
Kris Godinez made me realise - I didn't have to go, just because they are family.
Up to me now.
Their talk and their their opinions are obsolete. The chaos and upset of their guilt texting is over. They are blocked.
I'm sure they'll try the guilt stuff again when dad gets frailer. They'll be met with a medium chilled shrug, or complete silence.

UnpdBrother had it all worked out a few years ago. We moved somewhere (our dream home really ) and we settled properly. 
UnpdBrother looked at that bit of good news for us, and looked at what HE could gain from it. Dad did too.
We are thirty plus miles away from all that dad is used to, but they decided we were going to have dad to live with US. This would solve a heap of upcoming problems for brother and the other sibs!
The pressure was on for a good lot of months.
Dad;
' I'm choosing my room in your new house!'
' l would love to live here!'
Brother;
' Dad would love to live there. He's had enough of ( hometown).
And so on.

All I said in return?
' It won't work for me.'
( nod to WI)

That was it.

Sigh.
That incessant ringing and your flying monkey brother joining in is, I'm sorry, frankly disgusting.
I think you should just ignore it every time.
Like WI said, they can't make you pick up. We are a little bit addicted at first, to accepting the criticism and so eventually picking up. It's that darn trauma bonding and the cognitive dissonance that we must watch out for.

Quote from: nanotech on September 01, 2020, 08:27:15 AM
He's awful.
My dad at least backs off if I say I'm ill.
Your dad is relentless.
It's like he physically wants to walk in your shoes, knowing and seeing your life.
Ironic then they they can never empathise with us while in those shoes!
In fact, the opposite. They criticise and inform where we are going wrong .
I actually realised I'd never be good enough so I gave up.
Dad keeps mentioning mums grave. I haven't been there for a while. J don't allow myself to feel bad about that. I remind myself that I'll go when I feel I want to go.  I don't jump on the competition train that the other sibs are all on regarding attention to the grave. I used to be on that train. I'm not now.
Just dropping the rope, the mike, getting offa the train, whatever way you wanna put it.
I just no longer care whether dad is pleased with me or not.  I no longer care if sibs think I don't see dad enough, don't go to mum's grave enough, don't come to the appalling, excuse-for-abuse  family meals they put on.
Dad talks about a huge get together when things are 'back to normal.'
Wonderful. Have a nice time because I won't be there. I used to get anxiety for days leading up to them then I'd get abuse at the meal.
Kris Godinez made me realise - I didn't have to go, just because they are family.
Up to me now.
Their talk and their their opinions are obsolete. The chaos and upset of their guilt texting is over. They are blocked.
I'm sure they'll try the guilt stuff again when dad gets frailer. They'll be met with a medium chilled shrug, or complete silence.

UnpdBrother had it all worked out a few years ago. We moved somewhere (our dream home really ) and we settled properly. 
UnpdBrother looked at that bit of good news for us, and looked at what HE could gain from it. Dad did too.
We are thirty plus miles away from all that dad is used to, but they decided we were going to have dad to live with US. This would solve a heap of upcoming problems for brother and the other sibs!
The pressure was on for a good lot of months.
Dad;
' I'm choosing my room in your new house!'
' l would love to live here!'
Brother;
' Dad would love to live there. He's had enough of ( hometown).
And so on.

All I said in return?
' It won't work for me.'
( nod to WI)

That was it.

Sigh.
That incessant ringing and your flying monkey brother joining in is, I'm sorry, frankly disgusting.
I think you should just ignore it every time.
Like WI said, they can't make you pick up. We are a little bit addicted at first, to accepting the criticism and so eventually picking up. It's that darn trauma bonding and the cognitive dissonance that we must watch out for.

OMG cant believe Dad and brother said that about moving in! Thats just awful....

Good for you though for ignoring the rest of the family. Nice one.

Yes Dad wants to walk in my shoes indeed. I should tell you the poo-gate story. We'd gone to the cricket match. I had a bit of a jippy belly. Not bad but hey ho, I had to go. So I want twice in about 3 hours.
I come back hes off "are you ok?", "yes dad". "Have you been to bathroom again?" Im shussing him at this point. we're sat with say 40 people who can all hear this conversation. He gets louder "so are you ill because you've been to the tolilet 3 times now?" People are looking over and sniggering. I pull a nasty face at Dad and tell him to be quiet.

Afterwards, I said, look Dad if I say I'm ok, then leave it. I certainly dont want to discuss in a crowd. He wouldn't have it. Convinced himself he was only looking out for me and no-one else was listening anyway! (they were!)
Hes does similar things about 100 times now. He wants the know the ins and outs of everything. Its just suffocating at times...

This smothering, suffocating involvement you describe is called enmeshment. Your dad wants to be completely and totally enmeshed with all the minutiae of your life.

One day, p123, I've no doubt your dad and possibly your brother will start in on you the same as Nano's family. Won't get them far, but they'll probably try it anyway.

Quote from: Andeza on September 01, 2020, 02:13:21 PM
This smothering, suffocating involvement you describe is called enmeshment. Your dad wants to be completely and totally enmeshed with all the minutiae of your life.

One day, p123, I've no doubt your dad and possibly your brother will start in on you the same as Nano's family. Won't get them far, but they'll probably try it anyway.

Yeh he seems to have no boundaries at all. All of my business is his business it seems. I should tell him everything I do.

He hates that I dont do it as much now. You can tell. A few times hes said things like "Oh I didnt know it was a secret".

This enmeshment is familiar. My grandmother wanted to know everything I was doing. It wore on my nerves and honestly I consider it now harassment.

I used to  tell my mother everything to do with work and family.
It was like I didn't know where I ended and she began. She would tell my dad and my aunties as well as my PD sibs.

Last nights visit - think I did well again.

Hadn't even got in the door properly "I'm struggling....". Here we go again I thought.
So hes off telling me I'm ignoring him putting the shopping away. I come in sit down "did you see the cricket on TV?" But hes determined to get his point across that hes SO ILL.

To be honest, it was quite funny. He'd had a bit of a stomach upset and had been THREE TIMES in one morning so he called the doctor. I know, I know - if I eat too much garlic thats normal for me!
He was fine in the PM. Doctor refused to come out and hes had another "warning" from them. I just tried to see the funny side that he'd been just THREE times, convinced himself it was serious, and days later he still said "he feels so weak". Hasn't stopped eating mind.

I reminded him of when I had this sort of thing properly a year or so ago. Glastonbury music festival - I must have "gone" 150 times in the space of a week. I really didn't eat much either. I was doing a 25km walk up the moutains. (Pen Y Fan for those of u in the uk - its a decent mountain!) the weekend for charity. I didnt want to let anyone down so I did it. Bought some adult nappies/diapers lol. Really struggled but I did it - now I can safely say I was run down!
I reminded Dad that THREE squishy poos in 3 hours is not quite the same.

He was not amused that his life threatening poo was not taken seriously by anyone....

Also, he didnt even mention visiting the weekend!

Life threatening poo!  I love that.

My father would be thrilled to go three times in one hour.  He was convinced constipation would be the end of him. He would fake a head injury at the assisted living place just to be sent to the ER so he could tell them about his constipation.  (After 20 or so trips to the ER over constipation, the AL refused to send him anymore for that).

Hi p123,

Do you think there is grief at work here? I feel sad reading your posts and I very much relate to them as well. I have an easier time feeling grief than I do anger, but every once in a while I feel really angry and suddenly everything is crystal clear and I know my elderly parents are not just old folks to pity, they are mean people who have been their entire lives, each in their own unique way.

I wonder if framing a change in the context of running from something, to running to something would work? Meaning run toward most energy set on your immediate family and you healing and building your own strength.

Seems like you are moving to anger; please relish that rightful anger!  It's great, because your father, honestly he is like a mafia boss the way he treats you and it makes me mad reading about him. The good thing is he has no hit squad, so there's nothing to be afraid of. He cannot hurt you when you frame it in your mind as working on yourself, and your immediate family, very noble goals. Now your choices become positive rather than draggy and sad.

Be strong! What ended up scaring me when it came to doting on ungrateful, very selfish, draining parents - who had absolutely no time for me as a child - was that I might repeat that pattern of neglect, and spend more time doting on them, than raising a fabulous kid.

I made the choice to be the happier, stronger parent for my child, so that he had me around in a more positive way and didn't spend the rest of his life remembering me moaning about my old, awful parents, and me appearing like a "poor me" person. My child didn't deserve a childhood where he was lonely and ignored, as I had. Why repeat that pattern? Believe me, your daughter is watching you, learning from you, good or bad.

The fact that your dad barely thinks about your wife and child is so reflective of his selfish disorder.  If your dad had any iota of interest in your daughter it could be a win, win, but he doesn't seem to notice or really care about her, because he is so used to making everyone meet his needs. He is like this massive starving baby that never learned self-control or self-soothing.

My child is about to leave for college this week and I know that I would have felt a huge regret if I had allowed my parent's disorder to ruin my state of mind as I raised him, modelling to him unhealthy caretaking behaviour. I want to raise him to be free to have choices and have a good healthy life.

If you can't say no to your dad LIE! Make up outstanding lies that make you laugh. Say your house flooded. Say your roof blew off.  Say, I can't come on Wednesday dad because "daughter" is in a play,  or a sports game and you are the lines keeper.  Say you are getting medical tests for extreme fatigue and you can't get off the couch. Don't talk to your brother. And don't answer your phone. If your father calls the police, let them reprimand your dad for using their resources for no reason. Make this funny and not sad. You have to beat this mafia dad, for the sake of your own well being and your own family. Dad comes AFTER You, and Them.

You said at one point your wife might leave you. What if she does? What if your dad implodes your marriage! Get mad about that. He will be long gone soon enough, and your wife and daughter are there for the long haul, if you're lucky. Prioritize yourself and them.

Quote from: p123 on September 03, 2020, 02:43:55 AM
Last nights visit - think I did well again.

Hadn't even got in the door properly "I'm struggling....". Here we go again I thought.
So hes off telling me I'm ignoring him putting the shopping away. I come in sit down "did you see the cricket on TV?" But hes determined to get his point across that hes SO ILL.

To be honest, it was quite funny. He'd had a bit of a stomach upset and had been THREE TIMES in one morning so he called the doctor. I know, I know - if I eat too much garlic thats normal for me!
He was fine in the PM. Doctor refused to come out and hes had another "warning" from them. I just tried to see the funny side that he'd been just THREE times, convinced himself it was serious, and days later he still said "he feels so weak". Hasn't stopped eating mind.

I reminded him of when I had this sort of thing properly a year or so ago. Glastonbury music festival - I must have "gone" 150 times in the space of a week. I really didn't eat much either. I was doing a 25km walk up the moutains. (Pen Y Fan for those of u in the uk - its a decent mountain!) the weekend for charity. I didnt want to let anyone down so I did it. Bought some adult nappies/diapers lol. Really struggled but I did it - now I can safely say I was run down!
I reminded Dad that THREE squishy poos in 3 hours is not quite the same.

He was not amused that his life threatening poo was not taken seriously by anyone....

Also, he didnt even mention visiting the weekend!

Them and their poos!  I think my dad panics because if he has a poo it's a positive sign that he's healthy.
So when one doesn't appear, he straightaway thinks it's the first sign that he's dying.  :roll:
If it wasn't  for the pandemic he would have been at the hospital  a load of times this year, creating mayhem from nothing.
P123 I think in Wales the hospital services are better. They are onto your dad.
Here in England they seem to humour my dad. They've hinted to him at times that a lack of a poo one afternoon isn't serious, but my dad will list all the serious illnesses that it could be, then they relent and do the tests.
I think it is a good idea to see the funny side of it too. It is funny.

Just a thought as well. There's that mirroring thing you can do with someone disordered.
When they tell you something they've done or an experience they've had, you repeat it back to them.
This has the effect, for them, of some sort of validation, but in fact you have not agreed with them.
For example, he tells you his doctor story and you say ' ahhh ok so you said such and such and they said such and such and then you rang a taxi and came home.'
You just paraphrase back what they say but with the emotion removed.
It might stop him from going on and on. Then you might continue about the cricket or whatever.
I've done this both with my son (who we think may be on the spectrum ( mild autism) or possibly UNBPD ,and my dad too (UNPD). It worked for me.
It satisfied them and calmed them, and their emotional turmoil wasn't passed on to me.

They feel heard, but you are not enmeshed by it nor do you agree with them at any point.
You observe, you don't absorb ( thank you guitarman).

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 03, 2020, 05:47:08 AM
Life threatening poo!  I love that.

My father would be thrilled to go three times in one hour.  He was convinced constipation would be the end of him. He would fake a head injury at the assisted living place just to be sent to the ER so he could tell them about his constipation.  (After 20 or so trips to the ER over constipation, the AL refused to send him anymore for that).

Yes have had that in the past too . And the fake head injuries....

Quote from: nanotech on September 03, 2020, 05:14:41 PM

Quote from: p123 on September 03, 2020, 02:43:55 AM
Last nights visit - think I did well again.

Hadn't even got in the door properly "I'm struggling....". Here we go again I thought.
So hes off telling me I'm ignoring him putting the shopping away. I come in sit down "did you see the cricket on TV?" But hes determined to get his point across that hes SO ILL.

To be honest, it was quite funny. He'd had a bit of a stomach upset and had been THREE TIMES in one morning so he called the doctor. I know, I know - if I eat too much garlic thats normal for me!
He was fine in the PM. Doctor refused to come out and hes had another "warning" from them. I just tried to see the funny side that he'd been just THREE times, convinced himself it was serious, and days later he still said "he feels so weak". Hasn't stopped eating mind.

I reminded him of when I had this sort of thing properly a year or so ago. Glastonbury music festival - I must have "gone" 150 times in the space of a week. I really didn't eat much either. I was doing a 25km walk up the moutains. (Pen Y Fan for those of u in the uk - its a decent mountain!) the weekend for charity. I didnt want to let anyone down so I did it. Bought some adult nappies/diapers lol. Really struggled but I did it - now I can safely say I was run down!
I reminded Dad that THREE squishy poos in 3 hours is not quite the same.

He was not amused that his life threatening poo was not taken seriously by anyone....

Also, he didnt even mention visiting the weekend!

Them and their poos!  I think my dad panics because if he has a poo it's a positive sign that he's healthy.
So when one doesn't appear, he straightaway thinks it's the first sign that he's dying.  :roll:
If it wasn't  for the pandemic he would have been at the hospital  a load of times this year, creating mayhem from nothing.
P123 I think in Wales the hospital services are better. They are onto your dad.
Here in England they seem to humour my dad. They've hinted to him at times that a lack of a poo one afternoon isn't serious, but my dad will list all the serious illnesses that it could be, then they relent and do the tests.
I think it is a good idea to see the funny side of it too. It is funny.

Just a thought as well. There's that mirroring thing you can do with someone disordered.
When they tell you something they've done or an experience they've had, you repeat it back to them.
This has the effect, for them, of some sort of validation, but in fact you have not agreed with them.
For example, he tells you his doctor story and you say ' ahhh ok so you said such and such and they said such and such and then you rang a taxi and came home.'
You just paraphrase back what they say but with the emotion removed.
It might stop him from going on and on. Then you might continue about the cricket or whatever.
I've done this both with my son (who we think may be on the spectrum ( mild autism) or possibly UNBPD ,and my dad too (UNPD). It worked for me.
It satisfied them and calmed them, and their emotional turmoil wasn't passed on to me.

They feel heard, but you are not enmeshed by it nor do you agree with them at any point.
You observe, you don't absorb ( thank you guitarman).

Can safely say hes had 5 things wrong with him in the last few weeks. Really.... I just sit there and go "yeah" right.
Given up now trying to tell him to stop phoning the GP, ambulances, or being rude to the District Nurse. They're adults and can deal with it - if they want to ban him, which I think will happen, then thats their problem and not mine,

I just change the subject now a  lot. "Yeah sounds bad, did you see the cricket?"

Quote from: p123 on September 04, 2020, 03:10:54 AM

Quote from: nanotech on September 03, 2020, 05:14:41 PM

Quote from: p123 on September 03, 2020, 02:43:55 AM
Last nights visit - think I did well again.

Hadn't even got in the door properly "I'm struggling....". Here we go again I thought.
So hes off telling me I'm ignoring him putting the shopping away. I come in sit down "did you see the cricket on TV?" But hes determined to get his point across that hes SO ILL.

To be honest, it was quite funny. He'd had a bit of a stomach upset and had been THREE TIMES in one morning so he called the doctor. I know, I know - if I eat too much garlic thats normal for me!
He was fine in the PM. Doctor refused to come out and hes had another "warning" from them. I just tried to see the funny side that he'd been just THREE times, convinced himself it was serious, and days later he still said "he feels so weak". Hasn't stopped eating mind.

I reminded him of when I had this sort of thing properly a year or so ago. Glastonbury music festival - I must have "gone" 150 times in the space of a week. I really didn't eat much either. I was doing a 25km walk up the moutains. (Pen Y Fan for those of u in the uk - its a decent mountain!) the weekend for charity. I didnt want to let anyone down so I did it. Bought some adult nappies/diapers lol. Really struggled but I did it - now I can safely say I was run down!
I reminded Dad that THREE squishy poos in 3 hours is not quite the same.

He was not amused that his life threatening poo was not taken seriously by anyone....

Also, he didnt even mention visiting the weekend!

Them and their poos!  I think my dad panics because if he has a poo it's a positive sign that he's healthy.
So when one doesn't appear, he straightaway thinks it's the first sign that he's dying.  :roll:
If it wasn't  for the pandemic he would have been at the hospital  a load of times this year, creating mayhem from nothing.
P123 I think in Wales the hospital services are better. They are onto your dad.
Here in England they seem to humour my dad. They've hinted to him at times that a lack of a poo one afternoon isn't serious, but my dad will list all the serious illnesses that it could be, then they relent and do the tests.
I think it is a good idea to see the funny side of it too. It is funny.

Just a thought as well. There's that mirroring thing you can do with someone disordered.
When they tell you something they've done or an experience they've had, you repeat it back to them.
This has the effect, for them, of some sort of validation, but in fact you have not agreed with them.
For example, he tells you his doctor story and you say ' ahhh ok so you said such and such and they said such and such and then you rang a taxi and came home.'
You just paraphrase back what they say but with the emotion removed.
It might stop him from going on and on. Then you might continue about the cricket or whatever.
I've done this both with my son (who we think may be on the spectrum ( mild autism) or possibly UNBPD ,and my dad too (UNPD). It worked for me.
It satisfied them and calmed them, and their emotional turmoil wasn't passed on to me.

They feel heard, but you are not enmeshed by it nor do you agree with them at any point.
You observe, you don't absorb ( thank you guitarman).

Can safely say hes had 5 things wrong with him in the last few weeks. Really.... I just sit there and go "yeah" right.
Given up now trying to tell him to stop phoning the GP, ambulances, or being rude to the District Nurse. They're adults and can deal with it - if they want to ban him, which I think will happen, then thats their problem and not mine,

I just change the subject now a  lot. "Yeah sounds bad, did you see the cricket?"

You're really doing well! Gray rock, short answers, change subject. Let the authorities deal with his drama as they see fit. Let the chips fall where they may. Don't get involved with his interactions with those folks. You'll be wasting your breath and only getting yourself frustrated.

I assume they've  got him figured out by now and I think all his antics will eventually land him a psychological and cognitive assessment.

Hi there. Looks like it has been a great conversation.

Sadly, this thread has exceeded the forum max allowance of 5 pages and I am going to have to lock it up.
Please feel free to start and new thread and carry on!  :)