I could use some support. I didnt realize I was with a woman for 18 months that showed all the traits of BPD. Abandonment was the worst. She would request or take my keys so I wouldnt leave.
She was 20 years younger and extremely beautiful. We had a great 2 month courtship until finally consumating the relationship.
I recently realized I am probably codependent.
She sabotaged things making it difficult for me to stay and not leave during a disagreement. She said she could handle no form of no. We agreed to me taking a 20 minute walk to calm down. She pushed me so hard.
Last argument reached a new high. She had started to get physical with me when she didnt get her way.
I woke 5 mornings a week to meditate with her. Weekends I would sleep in but she usually had plans for us. On a Sunday morn, I used the toilet. She came in and said I needed to wake. I said in am hour but she should lay down with me. She requested again and said she felt dismissed. I said we can talk about it but after, whether 5 minutes or 5 hours, I was going to lay in bed for 1 hour. Well if she wakes me, I won't get to sleep in. I had 0 boundaries but this day was it.
She threw water on me. Grabbed my head and shook it. Now I'm mad and apathetic.
She slapped me (not hard but thats not the point) . I told her to leave and she refused. I got in my car and she stood behind it so I could not leave. I thot she was going to break the windows so I got out. She wanted to hug. I said get the fk away from me. 3 hours later she is still crying , yelling and screaming. My kid calls the cops and get her to leave. She slapped me maybe 25x in total.
This was not the 1st time she got violent with me. I had a trauma bond with her. I was deeply in love. We had something amazing that was tainted by her need for control. She would tale my cell phone, glasses, iPad, backpack and keys so I wouldnt leave.
After the police, I went no contact for 11 weeks. It was hard. I wanted her but was terrified. I wanted her to apologize w/o my prompt. She texted me that we needed to repair. That she was shaking and couldnt live in disconnection very long. Next day she said of I didnt respond she was blocking my number.
After 11 weeks I messaged her and wanted to work things out. She blasted me for 2 days. She had no interest. I needed some changes from her that I knew she wouldn't agree to. She is also in a masters program for psychology fyi. I had already returned all of her things when I knew she was not home. She called me a coward.
I finally said , when ur heart wants to speak w me, u let me know.
We had 2 conversations lasting 4 hours and then 3. It felt beautiful. I wanted her again so badly but felt I was in am abusive, toxic relationship. Was I?
I now have her blocked as. I called her out on the blame, projection and emotional instability. Man I wish we could work it out but she has too much pride to reach out to me and wants too much from me. She wants me to be a vegetarian, never have a dri, wale to meditate 5 days a week , but a house, have a child and more an more each day.
Kills me to be no contact w a woman I can not stop thinking about for over 3 months. Ive lost my self esteem and purpose.
I took care of her quite well. I make 15x as much as she does so I paid for most everything.
Her normal good side was over the top loving, affectionate and sensual. I lost interest in sex because I was being inauthentic to myself. Living in her world.
We were in couples therapy from the start. We had rules and guidelines. Eventually I got my own therapist, which announced the possible BPD, I hired a female yogi (my girl claimed to be a yogi) to work w her kn her childhood trauma and help us be better together and I hired a relationship coach. I had scads of notes, rules and such to follow. We had procedures for anticipated problems and such.
I'd still love to work things out as I think about us every minute. I ruminate terribly even though it wasnt worth it. She had no mutual respect for me. I was being devalued. Nor did I want a child. I was in love with a beautiful woman....i never even looked at another when I was with her. We danced so well. We exercised, walked, ran, took many trips etc. We were really close spending most of our time together.
Enough for now and thanks for listening. Does this sound toxic and abusive?
Hi Foggy.
To answer your question "Does this sound toxic and abusive?", Yes!
It's definitely toxic and abusive.
I'm new here obviously, so when talking to people on a new forum, I tend to look back on their previous posts to get an idea of who they are, and on this particular forum, given the reason why we're all here, I thought it even more prudent to do so.
From what I read, you have an ex-wife who you suspect was Borderline.
So, I'm not sure what advice I can give, as you've been through it already too.
You definitely have my sympathy for getting involved with another Borderline (something I will never do, I can assure you), and I'm sure you will have the support from all of us here.
But can I ask you this?
Didn't going through a relationship with a Borderline before give you any clues in your 18 months with this one?
I think you know it's toxic and abusive, and you just need to hear it from others, which is understandable.
From reading your post above, it's clear that you are back and forth between wanting to get away, and finding a way to "fix" things with her.
The truth is, you can't fix her.
You can only fix yourself.
Are you prepared to spend the rest of your life being "Devalued", "disrespected", "Threatened", "Physically Abused", etc. (your words).
If not, how long are you prepared to be treated like that?
A year?
10 years?
30 years?
The choice is yours.
As someone once said: "If someone loved you, or cared for you at least a little, they would not treat you that way. Not more than once; Certainly not repeatedly."
You mention something else in your post, which I'll briefly touch on.
I'm a Vegan, as I've been most of my life, and I've never asked any of my Girlfriends to go Vegan.
I've never made them feel bad or inferior for not being a Vegan, and never used it to coerce them in any way.
In fact, all I've ever asked of them is for them to respect my Veganism.
I also meditate, which you mention about your ex.
I meditate every day for at least 20-30 mins.
The peace of mind and relaxation it brings when done properly is hard to describe in words, but I have never asked any girlfriend to participate. Just like being a Vegan, if they asked about it, I was more than happy to discuss it, but that was it.
I appreciate people for who they are, not who I think they should be.
If you're going to be with a Borderline, or any Cluster B Personality Disorder, then you are going to be controlled, you're going to be devalued, you're going to be abused (at least mentally, and in your case physically too), and eventually you're going to be discarded and replaced in a heartbeat, with no remorse or regret on their part.
No matter where they are on the scale of Personality Disorders, these things will manifest at some point.
There is no fixing them.
In their mind, they don't need fixing, and things will be fine just as long as you put up with everything they do, NEVER do it back to them, and NEVER say NO.
I feel for you man.
There are women out there who don't make your stomach tie itself in knots when you come home from work, but instead are as happy to see you as you are to see them.
Take care mate.
QuoteDoes this sound toxic and abusive?
Yes. She slapped you many times, and threw water on you. That's abusive. And it is so very unpleasant that you've blocked her on social media. That's pretty toxic. That doesn't mean it cannot be salvaged, but you should be objective about what your current status is.
I hope for you that you are able to salvage this relationship. That would be so great for you..........but only if it really is. If what salgaving it means is that you are perpetually in therapy, she acts out at least every 6 weeks, you walk on eggshells, and feel demeaned, that is not great.
So ask yourself what it is you want in a relationship. It is not the case that we have a romantic relationship with everyone in the world, only rejecting a few bad apples. What we do is have romantic relationships with almost nobody, when you think about it, accepting only the treasured ones that really help us to thrive.
I know many women who are smart, kind, productive, funny, entertaining, and interesting, but whom I'd not date. Any serious relationship, if it is to last, has to be something special. That means it is quite all right to not be with someone who, for instance, yells at you, slaps you, and throws water on you. It doesn't take away the pain to say this. It doesn't take away the longing. But it can demystify the words "toxic and abusive." There are no technical definitions to those. What matters is whether life gets easier, better and happier with her in it.
Omg, thank you both for your input and opinions. I super needed this today. Simon, I really appreciate you taking the time to look into my past. Yes, Ive been here before and it was a long time ago that I read Out of the FOG. Ive read many since. Too Good to leave, too bad to stay was another great one.
My 1st mistake was being infatuated with her . this happened after a night of incredible tango dancing together. We had a connection ive never experienced and ive been at it 6 or 7 years. Then I saw her beauty and we had many, many other common pieces together. Too much to ignore. It's not every day I meet a beautiful woman, 20 years younger that I connect so deeply with.
I have been meditating for many years too but at night. Ive used it to manifest several things into my life. 2 of them were women of which she was one. She insisted I meditate and wake with her at 7 am as that was the best time and if I didn't, she wouldn't feel spiritually connected to me. I wanted to do it at night and she said we could do that too. Ive designed my life so I can sleep late. I wanted to cuddle in bed with her everyday but she needed it her way.
I also agreed to vegetarianism, no alcohol and no smoking. Thia was the 1st date and my mistake. I knew these were dealbreakers for Her but felt over time we would fall deeply in love which we did imo. Her needs kept getting more and more. If I complied, they kept coming as I was reinforcing it. If I didn't, love withdrawal , things broken, taken and violence.
To answer your question Simon, a friend of hers mentioned BPD to me as her mom is working on a phd in psychology and knew my ex. I didnt want to believe it so I ignored the signs. Then I read Stop Caretaking The Borderline or Narcissist. This is when it all hit home for me. A month later I held the sleeping in boundary and that was our last day.
She never apologized for hitting me. I needed that to even consider repairing. Eventually I asked her to and it was not genuine understanding. She didn't deliver even close to the type of apology she expected from me.
She wouldn't have left me as her abandonment fears were off the charts. I had to initiate after the last fight. Then I wanted her back.
I'm stuck. 3.5 months and she is all I think about. I am on holiday w my son and it consumes me every moment. I want us back so bad as I think I couldve handles the BPD ok but not whilst suppressing my desire for soda, meat and some freedom. We spent so much time together as she is a student and I work from home.
Any additional ideas are appreciated. I try to keep busy but the rumination is over the top. Its compulsive.
Quote from: foggydude on January 14, 2021, 03:07:34 PM
Omg, thank you both for your input and opinions. I super needed this today. Simon, I really appreciate you taking the time to look into my past. Yes, Ive been here before and it was a long time ago that I read Out of the FOG. Ive read many since. Too Good to leave, too bad to stay was another great one.
My 1st mistake was being infatuated with her . this happened after a night of incredible tango dancing together. We had a connection ive never experienced and ive been at it 6 or 7 years. Then I saw her beauty and we had many, many other common pieces together. Too much to ignore. It's not every day I meet a beautiful woman, 20 years younger that I connect so deeply with.
I have been meditating for many years too but at night. Ive used it to manifest several things into my life. 2 of them were women of which she was one. She insisted I meditate and wake with her at 7 am as that was the best time and if I didn't, she wouldn't feel spiritually connected to me. I wanted to do it at night and she said we could do that too. Ive designed my life so I can sleep late. I wanted to cuddle in bed with her everyday but she needed it her way.
I also agreed to vegetarianism, no alcohol and no smoking. Thia was the 1st date and my mistake. I knew these were dealbreakers for Her but felt over time we would fall deeply in love which we did imo. Her needs kept getting more and more. If I complied, they kept coming as I was reinforcing it. If I didn't, love withdrawal , things broken, taken and violence.
To answer your question Simon, a friend of hers mentioned BPD to me as her mom is working on a phd in psychology and knew my ex. I didnt want to believe it so I ignored the signs. Then I read Stop Caretaking The Borderline or Narcissist. This is when it all hit home for me. A month later I held the sleeping in boundary and that was our last day.
She never apologized for hitting me. I needed that to even consider repairing. Eventually I asked her to and it was not genuine understanding. She didn't deliver even close to the type of apology she expected from me.
She wouldn't have left me as her abandonment fears were off the charts. I had to initiate after the last fight. Then I wanted her back.
I'm stuck. 3.5 months and she is all I think about. I am on holiday w my son and it consumes me every moment. I want us back so bad as I think I couldve handles the BPD ok but not whilst suppressing my desire for soda, meat and some freedom. We spent so much time together as she is a student and I work from home.
Any additional ideas are appreciated. I try to keep busy but the rumination is over the top. Its compulsive.
I want to speak with her. Dance with her, make love and spend the night but I'm no contact. Everyone in my life says to stay no contact. Ideas?
Hi Foggy,
Good on you for reaching out. I just want to say, that you may be hurting right now, but please don't beat yourself up. You've actually done a lot of things right! But first I'll answer your question.
YES that relationship was extremely abusive.
Here are some examples:
Very controlling behavior-
Forcing you to change your diet (I'm a strict vegan and would NEVER pressure or tell others how to eat), making you get up at a certain hour etc. not drinking anything, having a child against your wishes... taking things so you can't leave
Verbal abuse- name calling etc..
Physical abuse- hitting you, grabbing your head, throwing water on you. Just awful! Criminal acts.
Financial abuse- getting you to pay for everything, even if you make more money, she shouldn't treat you like an ATM.
You definitely did the right thing getting out. I have also left abusive relationships. There is a part of you that is clear eyed, analytical and incredibly strong. You can see the abuse.
So it's wonderful that you are coming Out of the FOG. You sound like a good, caring person. You deserve much better!
I'm also healing, several years into my healing journey so I can share some tips if you like? ☺️
Please do. I'm suffering as you can see. Glad to hear you think ive done some things correctly cause ive lost my self esteem, image and confidence.
Sometimes I dont think I will be ok w/o her. Sometimes I think I will have an amazing relationship if she comes back or doesnt.
Yes she wants a vegetarian. I tried. Shes a gluten free vegan. Really no restaurants at all. Shes very serious for a young woman.
So any tips are needed
I grew up in a tuff family. My mother and I parted when I was 9. My dad had a heavy hand until I was 13.
I really couldve worked w her on the unBPD but not with a new diet.
We had so much joy at my expense.
Wish I could get it thru my head how toxic and abusive this was and let that dominate my every moment thoughts of her.
I also feel guilt as I brought her last things to her place w some beautiful and painful pics....i immediately blocked her email, insta and phone....she prolly has no idea ive blocked her email and such. Wish I knew if she said something about the emotional pixs. One was in the middle of our last fight w me bleeding and wet. I wrote , it took me 2 months to get past this on it.
Now shes made it clear she is not pursuing me. That hurts tho I left her 1st.
Hi Foggy,
First of all sending support and a hug from over the other side of the world (I'm sure!).
It's awesome that those books
'Stop caretaking the borderline of narcissist' is an amazing book isn't it!
It's fantastic that this was the start of a healing journey for you.
I hear you regarding the pain and emotional turmoil. I have also been in very emotionally abusive relationships. By the third one, I realised it was by childhood coming out, and that I needed to heal or despite my best intentions, I would keep ending up with abusers due to deep subconscious drives that pushed me towards what was 'familiar'- i.e. reminded me of my abusive family.
And the good news is, you can heal, and you have already made the first steps! Yay.
Okay, so here's what worked for me (I'm still working on these things but have made real progress).
- taking a 1 year break from dating. This is recommended for those who have just been in an abusive relationship. It allows the mind to create it's new patterns (if you do the work).
- finding a good therapist. I know it's expensive, but it's so important to build new mental patterns. If cost us a big problem seeing them less often and negotiating a lower rate helps. I find the 'find a therapist' section on the psychology today website very helpful.
httpss://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
- Journaling. Pouring my heart out to my journal really really helps. It's also amazing to read it over with new eyes!
- self help books (especially important to do the exercises).
Books that have helped me (and some on my reading list for the near future):
- children of the self absorbed' + also an associated book by the same author on boundaries
- the dark side of the light chasers - getting in touch with parts of your personality that can help/ defend you
- the emotionally abusive relationship
-codependence for dummies
- the self esteem work book
- the inner child workbook
- complex PTSD, from surviving to thriving
Sorry if this list is a bit overwhelming! It's okay if it takes time, my progress is over months, years. But wow, it's so so worth it!
When I started setting boundaries I got blowback from unhealthy people (like your ex), whereas it deepened the relationship with kind, healthy people.
I was able to start healthy relationships with kind, good men.
It's amazing doing the work, hard at times, but you sound like a good kind, conscientious person. I believe you deserve to find love, REAL love, not the abusive, trauma bonding fake kind.
One big break through for me was deciding, deep down, that I deserve love. That it shouldn't be performance based. That it also doesn't matter if I do something 'wrong' abuse is NEVER okay!
One thing I read was that we end up in these abusive relationships again and again order to try and get closure from the original abuse from our parents. The message we got was that we aren't 'enough', so those little snippets of approval from another abuser are like a powerful drug. BUT, when we decide to love and heal ourselves it breaks that. When we get a kind, supportive relationship with a therapist, it breaks that too. We can accept rejection from messed up, abusive people, because we know that we ARE enough, and that their own issues make them abuse and reject everyone. In a sense, it's not about us.
- Another thing that helped is self care, exercise, enough sleep!!! (i.e. sleeping in one weekends if that's what you want), nature, good food, seeing (healthy) friends, movies, hobbies, whatever it is that builds you up, those things will help fill your cup and build you up as you heal.
And lastly, I feel for you on your heartache. It really hurts. You loved this person. It's really a double blow, the trauma of what someone you loved did to you, but also your caregivers hurting you in childhood.
Sending you a great big hug and support. :bighug:
I think your ex, like all borderlines is highly unlikely to get help, and change would take years of committed effort.
Wishing you the best of luck for your health and healing :yourock:
I want to thank everyone for the support and let you know that I have have read them a dozen times to get it thru my skull. And yes, I still want to be with her and start a healing journey like we talked about. No I dont want to be abused in any form either.
Idk how to even attempt to salvage this when ive blocked her and am not reaching out. I guess she is not going to do what it takes to be certain she gets a message to me
Reaching out to her puts her in power and disempowers me is my guess.
I'm really in a pickle.
I'm far too attracted to her and her good sides. I'm in fantasy
Soon I will be heading home from vaca and terrified to face my life w/o her even tho its been 3.5 months and it was toxic and abusive.
Btw, she had a spiritual superiority complex being a proclaimed Yogi. She felt she knew the "truth" and once you learned what she did, you would behave, eat and live like she did. This i took offense to amd never gave in on.
QuoteI'm in fantasy.
We have a lot of folks around whose issues are with their parents. It may be helpful to share here something they often discover. Let's say a mom is named Diane. The member may say "I do not want a relationship with Diane. Diane consistently hurts me. Diane predictably rejects and insults me. Diane reliably does the wrong thing without understanding. I am happier when I am not around or thinking about Diane. When I am with Diane, I am stressed, and constantly worrying over how to please her, or avoid traps that will end in my abuse."
But the same member writes "I want a real, loving relationship with my mom. I want a mom who cares for me through thick and thin. My mom used to make me hot chocolate, and we'd eat popcorn for dinner when dad was away on business. I want to know my mom is there for me, and it would be an honor to care for my mom as she ages."
These members often tumble to what is going on, like my own wife did. "Diane" is a flesh-and-blood human, and is deeply flawed. All the observations, as unfixable as they sound, are spot on. Diane is reliably a source of pain and not comfort. "Mom" is an idealized role: a sought after thing that most people get in a unit of reasonable quality.
You sound like you are describing "Diane" and "that incredible lover that Diane could be if only....."
And hey, a lot of lovers just need a little fixing up, right? It is part of the beauty of relationships, that we adjust to each other. But a potter always starts with very good clay. You need to look at the observations you've made and decide whether "Diane" is good clay for you.
Toxic and abusive ,YES.
Sometimes the non in a relationship later realizes theybfell in love with who they thought the personality disordered person was. That they fell in love with a false reality that was created to ensnare them.
It is often no in the nons power or control as to when or if the false person will return, when, and for how long if ever.
Some nons discover this early in others after decades of sacrificing themselves to bring their love back.
I feel that those who learn early in the relation ship , these realities are the more fortunate.
I hope you find your life abuse free soon.
I feel your pain foggydude, entirely. It's just horrible. It's also interesting. I suggest you start journalling specifically round your pain, get creative, make links, follow your nose on the paper and see where it leads you. Dive deep.
I've been where you are twice. Utterly heartbroken and mindfucked. It gets better though. It's not linear and it can't be rushed. But by making it a conscious process and getting as much support as possible and practicing stellar self care you will move out of this excruciating, but TEMPORARY, phase of your recovery from PD abuse.
When we went into Covid restrictions in March, I had been two and a half years out from an eighteen month relationship with an uPD. I remember, almost at the beginning, thinking how glad I was that I wasn't with him anymore. The thought of being in lockdown with him filled me with horror. And yet, when I left him, I longed for him so, so badly. For me, it took a year to fully recover (plus ongoing stuff about my own issues raised by the relationship)
Hang on foggydude, it gets better. That's a promise.
Sending a big hug foggy dude,
It hurts so much to go through a break up like this, and I know very well what it's like to have your heart and your head telling you totally different things! Your heart- and part of it is all the emotional programming that comes from childhood, is a powerful force, but I really believe that your clear eyed part, that sees the abuse will get you free and help you heal 🤗 awesome posts from others here, it WILL get better.
My 2 cents for somethings that might provide some relief...
- a good (face to face - or zoom in these covid times) therapist if you are able, or better help.com is online therapy. Therapy (especially face to face) is so important for healing and getting free from this stuff. Reading self help books is super beneficial and a very cost effective way to heal as well, and you're already doing that 😊
- exercise - especially anything that requires focus on the here and now, rock climbing, surfing (if you live by the sea). Running is good to release stress
- and general things that you like! I know you like dancing! That's awesome! A movie marathon, hot baths, go kart racing whatever it is that takes your mind off and brings you not is a good thing!
I hope this isn't too much advice - these are things that have helped me - do take from it what you will 😊
The other thing is, by detaching from abuse you are doing something really big, it's much bigger than just detaching from one abusive relationship, it's a process starting to detach from abusive relationships in general, which is amazing and huge.
I had feelings for an abusive ex years after we broke up (he cheated on me in my beloved tent - charming huh?), after years of belittling and emotionally abusing me. I can see it clearly now, but I felt utterly broken about it for so long. Just sending you the biggest hug 🤗
You sound like a good sweet person who deserves good things.
Ty once again for all of the great ideas and compassion. I have been in an unknown state of trauma bond, control, validation deficit and much, much more. OMG. And to make things worse, I still want my abuser back. The only thing that has changed since the break is that I insist on my diet, drinks and lifestyle. This is progress.
I ruminate all day long. Every day. My support folks have kinda had it with me.
Whilst the pain is waning, I long for what she represented...the love, the care, the naked tango, the closeness we shared. Yes, all at a tremendous cost.
My guess is that my current obsessiveness with this has been going on during the entire relationship. The walking on eggshells and being inauthentic to myself has kept me in a state of self induced, constant anxiety.
Currently I am at the beach in Florida with my son, floating around wandering....i am really, really lucky to be able to do this I know.
I listen to the audio book codependent no more. During the day I read other stuff, text with a support line and today I spoke with my T. He taught me how to represent and speak with my inner child to determine what I need...so that I can be whole. To provide for myself what I need so I wont need anything from anyone else. So that I can be healthy for the relationship I want.
I also just bought a short read on stopping emotional flashbacks. This part kills me as I CANNOT stop thinking about her, about us.
It deals with CPTSD.
I have to figure out how to rebuild my self esteem, my future plans, goals and objectives. These got erased with this breakup in the flash of a pan. That in itself is so frantic for me. I guess I am a sensitive soul.
I listen to YouTube, read here and keep busy, even at the beach. Even right now on Saturday night.
Thanks for listening....as I read hear I see that many people have issues far beyond mine.
Hi Foggy,
It's great that you have a T. and you are doing that additional reading. You will definitely get through this with all the work you're putting in :)
I'm glad that the pains waning. This growth period will be so so valuable in future. Stay strong, you WILL get through this. You're doing an awesome job by the sounds :bighug: :yourock:
I struggle with not breaking no contact. I never announced this to her and I want our relationship back. I've thought about emailing her, contacting her therapist( who I have a have met with) or her sister.
Every single moment is a struggle. Yup we have serious issues. Yup she has 0 compromise.....this is the biggest problem for me. Yes, she is likely a relational impossibility. Logic says do not contact her. My heart says make it work. Reach out. She loves you
I'm doing the work.
The book codependent no more is making me feel guilty, like I started the rescuer, victim, perpetrator cycle.
Oh man. I feel I'll never find a gorgeous woman like this again
Hi Foggydude,
Definitely stay strong on the NC is my advice. Even if its hard, even if your heart is saying this or that. Stay strong.
I am absolutely certain you WILL find someone nice in future. It will get easier. You WILL find someone who is kind, caring, who doesn't hit you, criticize you, call you horrible names, AND wants to do naked tango with you, hehe :) There are lots of awesome ladies out there.
If you don't mind me saying, I definitely think you are doing the right job now - your job is to heal, to build new relationship patterns.
Its terrific that you are seeing a therapist - how often do you see him/her?
A book you might also be interested in is called 'Attached - https://www.amazon.com.au/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-YouFind/dp/1585429139 (https://www.amazon.com.au/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-YouFind/dp/1585429139)'
What have you got for self care? It sounds like you are doing a lot of great things to heal, I think this is just terrific :)
I read that book a few years ago. Tango was amazing with her. We danced so well together. I'm more experienced and made her look wonderful....w or w/o clothes.
I'm at the beach w my son. I'm running, walking, studying, reading and obsessing about what should have been.
I realize she has no compromise.
I realise my relationship w my parents is making this worse for me.
I realize I am codependent.
I realize this was a trauma bond though the crumbs were plentiful.
I realize I am lucky to have gotten out as many cannot.
I realize I am fortunate that she doesn't want to work things out, last I heard
I realize that breaking NC will probably ruin what little self esteem I have.
She will be difficult for me to replace. This I am certain of. Shes much younger and the most beautiful woman in the world to me.
I'm obsessed all day. Cannot remain present. I texted w a support line all afternoon while at the beach w my son. I feel sick and unhealthy. It's been almost 4 months since the breakup amd 3 weeks since I last contacted her. I'm terrified to return home or even drive past her town or exit. I feel like a wuss. A love addict
Hi Foggy dude,
I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling.
Hang in there, stay strong. Keep up with all the good things you are doing, growing, changing, studying as you are, running. Those things are awesome and will get you through this and take you somewhere much better. Good one on the seeing a therapist too.
I know it's hard now, but I think you really are in the eye of the storm, and this storm WILL pass,
In relation to finding someone else, I was just reading that for people who have grown up with PD parents (I have been working on the resultant codependency issues myself for years) the people we attach to often seem irreplaceable, but they are really not. The fact that you could meet one attractive person is kind of proof that you could definitely meet another.
I know its hard when you intellectually know things but are still in pain. Sending a big hug. You are doing a great job of sticking to the NC and working on the healing. Hope you have a nice day at the beach with your son! It sounds so lovely :)
The inner critic might be saying mean things like you are a 'wuss' but you aren't, you've shown enormous strength and courage walking away. You've shown great courage reaching out to a therapist, reading and working on self help, growing and changing.
The people that are the scared ones are those that are too afraid to change, that bully and abuse others.
You might want to try and challenge the inner critic and point out all the good things you are doing, all your good points.
You're doing great foggy.
Ty jollyjazz. Truth is, the only way I got her was due to my codependence and people pleasing. I was so willing to meet her diet, alcohol abstination and quit smoking requirements. I had connected so deeply an knew I wanted her. I'm not going to do that again.
Yes I have a lot to offer but so do other men. She had been with men older than me previously, but I did not know that
Still think what you've read is accurate here? Still think I can meet someone like that ? That I have that level of attraction to physically and on the love, affection and attention spectrums?
Also, I am obsessing over this woman. All I think about is her....us...the want. I cannot stop the endless loop. I reach for her in the middle of the night....i wake thinking if her....desiring her. This cant be normal
Hi Foggy,
I think its awesome how much insight you have, and how hard you are working on the healing stuff!
The thing is with us people that are raised to be codependent / pleaser types - we sure know how to work hard, and are more than willing to accept that there are things to work on (we usually blame ourselves far too much) but it also sets us up amazingly to heal and grow! Yay :)
QuoteTruth is, the only way I got her was due to my codependence and people pleasing. I was so willing to meet her diet, alcohol abstination and quit smoking requirements. I had connected so deeply an knew I wanted her. I'm not going to do that again.
Yes I have a lot to offer but so do other men. She had been with men older than me previously, but I did not know that
Still think what you've read is accurate here? Still think I can meet someone like that ? That I have that level of attraction to physically and on the love, affection and attention spectrums?
This is awesome :) Yes, I definitely think you can find someone at least as attractive, and that you will find someone with a much nicer personality next time. Once we stop the pleasing/trying so hard, we can start to let into our life people that are kind, want to help us...
I know when you are feeling down it might not feel like it (and after a lifetime of emotional abuse), but try to remember your good points :) self compassion can be a struggle, but one that's worth it. I'm still struggling with mine, but I'm getting there.
I'm so confident that you will get through this foggy :)
I think that you are really in the worst part of a break up, after the initial shock has worn off, but this pain will subside. You are totally doing everything right.
Would it help to remind yourself of her bad points next time you think of her? Not to be mean, but she really doesn't sound like a very nice person AT ALL,
You arent being mean, you are being helpful. She cannot see that I had nothing to do with her being violent towards me. She says his my fault. She cant see this.
In the same way, I cannot see her meanness. I agree, she is mean. Please, tell me how you think she is mean because I'm deaf to it.
Last I spoke to her, rhe only thing she thinks of me is that I abandoned her. That is her memory of me and how she is getting over me.
I should employ the same technique to rid limerence. Tell me her mean stuff please
HI Foggy,
My guess is the intellectual part of you sees this - but its harder for the emotional part. Keep up with the good work you are doing, with therapy and all the books you are working through - things WILL change and you will start to see it all differently (for the better) :)
She was mean by: being incredibly abusive to you, controlling you (i.e. forcing you into her 'healthy' habits - PD's like to claim its 'for our own good' but really what its about is control, making you feel less than), financial abuse - making you pay for everything, hitting you, repeatedly, calling you names, criticizing you. Horrible, horrible stuff.
Would it help to imagine someone else doing this to another person?
I know we are raised to think abuse is normal to us - that's literally how we were raised. Please keep working hard on this - it may not feel like it now, but you are doing awesomely, I feel like you are going to have a break through on this... and it will help to lead to a much happier life for you :)
P.S. maybe some movies about emotional abuse might help: https://www.dailyo.in/arts/five-hollywood-films-that-trace-stories-of-emotional-abuse/story/1/1968.html
and
https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/movies-domestic-violence-abusive-relationships/
When I was in a horrendously emotionally abusive relationship (before therapy) I was starting to see it, I had secretly read a book on emotional abuse and was starting to (intellectually) come Out of the FOG. I watched a TV show with a horrid, emotionally abusive character, and that helped me to see things a little more clearly.
You'll get there foggy, sending a big hug :bighug:
Ok this is very helpful to me. Yes she claimed her healthy diet on me was only for my good. So that I would have a lower risk of health issues and she wouldn't have to care for me in the future as I have a poor family history (lost 2 siblings to cancer), even though I told her if anything happened to me, I could afford a nurse. She said it doesnt work like that
Ironically, I took care of her during a lengthy illness and felt guilty because she complained I wasn't and didnt do a good enough job! It passed through my busy work season and I forfeited tremendous financial oppty for her. We were only together for a few months when this happened.
Brought her to the hospital as she was so jaundiced, it scared me. This was after I (last minute) cancelled a weekend w my friends to go to a meditation retreat with her instead. I gave in again! She got sick. The doctors wanted her to have a gall bladder removal. She said no she would heal it by diet. She left the hospital against their suggestions but I sat there with her for 4 days and nights.
Clearly her perfect diet wasn't helping her and she is young!
Then we went away . she ate near 0 fat. This is not healthy. On vaca she had paying guests and I fed them. Paid for the food and cooked every vegan meal for them for 1 week in a kitchen that was the absolute worst. Nor am I a cook let alone a vegan one. She couldnt help cuz shw was so weak. What a total arse pain but I did it out of love. This after we broke up cuz I wanted to eat fish. I gave in again.
Furthermore, she felt her spirituality was superior to all others. Only she and other "devotees" knew the truth. This too was about control. Not about helping someone like me.
My lesson here from you is that the ulterior motiive is control. This is mean. Whether its conscious or not.
Ive been blaming it and rationalizing through her pd. Thats BS.
Ty for helping me clear this up. This helps me.
Lastly, I read a beautiful story to her about being a lighthouse and how everyone is attracted to them. You dont have to be a boat to go out and bring people in. When I said this is how I feel you operate with your lifestyle and spirituality and diet....i said stop running people down, let them find you. She WAS OUTRAGED AND OFFENDED.
I also think she was not so strong in her beliefs and this is why she wanted to recruit me snd others.... To reinforce her want and need for this cult like life. She wasn't secure in it at all.
Ty so very much jazzy. I will look at some of those movies.
Ironically we saw one movie like this together after an abusive session where she nearly broke my car door. It still doesn't operate properly. She took my glasses and slapped me and stormed off in the highway cuz I had to pull over she we so mad. She kept saying I AM GETTING WORSE, YOU ARE MAKING IT WORSE, I AM GONNA FREAK OUT, IM GONNS LOSE IT....then she did.
I said nothing after the movie. I cant believe I even went to it after that 1.5 hour problem with her.
She was MEAN. She isnt nice. THANK YOU FOR THIS.
I cant believe I would even consider getting back with her after the last abuse let alone all the others.
I have a bad habit if forgetting on purpose....do you?
Quote from: JollyJazz on January 18, 2021, 10:02:55 PM
Would it help to imagine someone else doing this to another person?
P.S. maybe some movies about emotional abuse might help: https://www.dailyo.in/arts/five-hollywood-films-that-trace-stories-of-emotional-abuse/story/1/1968.html
and
https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/movies-domestic-violence-abusive-relationships/
When I was in a horrendously emotionally abusive relationship (before therapy) I was starting to see it, I had secretly read a book on emotional abuse and was starting to (intellectually) come :
Yes it would help to imagine someone else. A friend said, what would I tell her if ahe told me the same story?
Those movies look awesome!
Sadly I too was in an emotionally abusive marriage for a long time....too long. My wife said to me more than once, I am going to hit myself in the head with this frying pan, call the police and tell them you did it.
Shortly after I too read Emotional Blackmail secretly. It opened my eyes.
Just like this time when I read Stop Caretaking the BPD or NPD!
YOU made some great points here. As my friend Timber says, don't cut down trees to make yourself look taller!
It is about control. To make them feel superior and you less. Secretly kills self esteem. Erodes self image and confidence.
This control makes them feel safe and loved. Sadly, this provides the opposite of what they actually want, authentic love.
Just like people pleasing provides the opposite of what I want....to be loved as is.
Hi Foggy,
Its awesome that the self help books are helping you Out of the FOG! :) That is how I started to get free (mentally)
Wow - your ex sounds so abusive.
She was also doing isolating things - like getting you to cancel get togethers with friends, and the controlling your diet... like I say, I am vegan and would never ever, pressure anyone else to do this... it is YOUR body and you shouldn't be shamed or told what to do with it. Abusers are really good at making you feel like they are 'helping you' the other implication is that you are 'less than', that you need to be helped. Ugh, and breaking your car door, hitting you. I think it's so terrific you went to the police. She is a complete domestic abuser, horrible stuff!
BPD is a really serious mental illness, sometimes BPD's need to be hospitalised...
There's actually a good post on the glossary about abuse amnesia - forgetting the bad things on purpose, it is VERY common, and a survival tactic we learned in childhood.
All the therapy and self help books helped me to get past the 'abuse amnesia' I have been working on things for years... I still am!
One therapist showed me the 'power and control' wheel :
Quotehttps://www.google.com/search?q=power+and+control+wheel&rlz=1C1GCEB_enAU919AU919&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB88Lp-KjuAhV9zjgGHfW9BFgQ_AUoAXoECBIQAw&biw=1280&bih=610
Basically there are different behaviours, and the abuser definitely doesn't need to do all of them to be an abuser, there are many different tactics, types of abuse. Its good to look at the different 'wheel' because there are different behaviours. But its just an enlightening look into the different tactics that they use and how its all about one, underlying thing - control. And control with a total indifference for our feelings.
If tearing us down, calling us horrible names, belittling nice things we do for them, insulting our appearance, isolating us from our friends hurts us immensely, but gives them control, they will do it.
Before I went to therapy I was in an extremely emotionally abusive relationship.
Just for example, this is definitely not the whole list, but some examples of the abuse were
Financial/economic control - buying large 'joint' purchases - things I didn't want - and making me pay half, buying things 'together' but only putting his name on it, trying to get me to spend more on things (I am frugal and he was massively in debt) to fit in with his expensive tastes, also I suspect he would have just quit his job and mooched off me if I hadn't fled earlier - hehe
Emotional abuse - name calling, blaming, shouting at me, running me down, criticizing me
Taking advantage of 'traditional roles' - I had a full time, demanding job, but he made me do all the cooking and cleaning, he mooched around and only worked part time (for a man, this could be the abusive female partner refusing to pay for things or work)
He also cheated... screamed at me, oh yeah, and pushed me, threw a bag and pointed a knife at me (it's shocking even writing this - the physical stuff was the breaking point for me, I fled when he wasn't there - but the emotional abuse was what I'd been so accustomed to from childhood - I just committed 100% to therapy and didn't date for a year after that and it changed my life).
There's plenty more, but you get the point! He was a total abuser, but I left and went through the healing process, I'm still healing now, I plan on healing my whole life. But now my relationships are much happier and healthier!
QuoteSadly I too was in an emotionally abusive marriage for a long time....too long. My wife said to me more than once, I am going to hit myself in the head with this frying pan, call the police and tell them you did it.
That is horrendous!!!
I'm so glad that you are healing...
The thing is by breaking away from your latest abusive relationship and healing you are breaking away from abuse in general.
Oh, one thing that really helped me was this amazing book:
Quotehttps://www.amazon.com.au/Children-Self-Absorbed-Grown-Ups-Getting-Narcissistic-ebook/dp/B07YWF881J
its got amazing exercises, I did these and oh my goodness, they helped SO much.
I also meditated at the same time, (I don't know - maybe you are put off meditation after being forced to do it by your ex - lol).
This book was amazing for helping me open my eyes and heal from the roots of why I kept ending up with abusers - because of the abuse I endured as a child.
Also going to therapy once a week helped a lot too.
Anyway, no pressure but that is a book that really helped me too :)
I think you are going to do so well.
And yes, I think people raised to be 'pleasers or caretakers, codependent' are also compassionate, so for me, thinking of someone else being abused in the same way makes me think 'noooooooo!!!!', anyway, we deserve better, so good on you, wishing for the best for you!!!!
P.S. Here it is - from the amazing glossary on this site:
Quotehttps://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/abuse-amnesia
Abuse amnesia!
I found that book - 'children of the self absorbed' plus meditating REALLY helped me personally with my abuse amnesia!!!
Anyway, hope you are feeling a bit better today :)
Ty once again for the continued support.
Another question please.
I read that codependents over give, people please (rescue/fix), then we resent this (persecute), then we become angry( victim).
Is this whole thing my fault for doing so? I resonate with this as 3 therapists have mentioned part of this cycle to me.
Also, since I agreed to vegetarianism, no drinking or smoking from the very 1st date, am I just bargaining with myself and justifying her behavior and treatment of me when I announced I did not want to leave out meat or alcohol?
She did have some leeway after for 1 -2 drinks a few tomes a year. She said she couldn't believe she was agreeing to this because she was going against her beliefs and that she NEVER wanted this in her life.
Eventually it went it once a month. However, she could never hangout with my friends and I because I saw them so infrequently that when we got together, I was going to have a few drinks with them. She sais she couldnt be around me drinking. That we could hang w my friends and they could drink but not me. Thats when I said, well, I guess you wont be hanging w me and my friends. (None of which are alcoholics).
Also , strangely, I was drinking w them kne day and my ex wanted to spend the night together still.
Thia shocked me because I thought she didnt want to be around me when I was drinking.
One important thing for me was to return to Alaska with my son to go fishing. She understood during s negotiation how important it was to me. She agreed. She also wanted to attend. I said we sre going to be catching a lot of fish, eating them and bringing them home. She still wanted to go. Strange.
Why would she want to watch me , in her words , kill souls and eat fish out of a polluted ocean
Not trying to offend anyone as I know you and others sre vegans. I respect you for that.
Ty once again for your continued, incredibly important feedback.
QuoteI read that codependents over give, people please (rescue/fix), then we resent this (persecute), then we become angry( victim).
Is this whole thing my fault for doing so?
I definitely don't think it's your fault! We learned certain behaviour as a survival pattern, it's like a dance, but you are definitely not to blame for abuse, noone is. Only the abuser is to blame.
Definitely no offence with the eating etc. I really do think her criticising your eating and insisting on coming on your fishing trip was about control. I can't imagine wanting to control someone like that. So not healthy!!
No probs re: support! I really feel for you as I know how incredibly painful it is to be emotionally abused by someone you loved, beyond painful.
But you'll get thru - you're doing an awesome job 😎
Tx. Just woke in a sweaty panic at the thought of her w another man and the reality of us not being together.
How stupid of me to deny what was happening and how shocking that I had to take such drastic steps.
I mean yes she attacked me but we were slated for therapy the next day. I could've just waited to address it then but it was too powerful a statement to ignore.
She was shocked I was able to break away and not respond. Her therapist predicted id reach out within 4 days too apparently. I was also surprised her therapist (ours as well) didn't text or call me.
They have a long standing relationship. I felt disadvantaged coming into session with them. My side was taken many times but they knew things I did not. Probably that a BPD diagnosis had occurred. It was opaque to me!!!!
So I now lay in bed, devastated near 4 months after standing up for myself. To defend what was left of my honor instead of just keeping cool and stating I needed space. To leave the relationship.
This panic really sux. Even knowing there is something else out there. That God has a different plan.
You are a strong woman with what uve been thru. You have 0 regret for leaving. I have much regret for not handling this better. Not sure why this is.
I've been one to be able to look, envision and feel my future through meditation and consciousness however, I am not able to. You are correct.....i have not been meditating lately. Mostly because there is a part of me that is trying to manifest her back to me. To envision am feel it. This is the only way to manifest imo. You have to see it and feel it.
I am so conflicted when I do that. I feel I am condemning ber and praising her at thr same time knowing full well she abused me. I feel like I am doing such a disservice to me. Creating an ultimately damaging dishonoring of my own self. Walking through an emotional mine field in my own head.
I am so ambivalent about this decision I made to leave the relationship near 4 months ago. How absurd.
Even tho I blocked my ex, got a call and an email today. I did nit reach out in her birthday recently either.
I did Not take the call or read said email but i suspect that she wants this laptop still. Or is this just to see if I react? If her power is will intact?
She was creative as she mustve realized I blocked her email as she copied rhe subject into a new email addy as I have a few and didnt block that one.
I was surprised my phone rang cuz I blocked that too but she calls from a restricted #. Maybe this is why it only rang 2x.
Any input is appreciated. I really do want us to work it out bur I won't unless I hear what I need which is so far from her vocab it would be like winning rhe lottery
Even tho I am doing better and I have a great life, ive not secured a better mental future or present yet to see the disparity I need to survive and thrive