Out of the FOG

The Other Sides of Us => Working on Us => Topic started by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 11:51:01 AM

Title: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 11:51:01 AM
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this so please feel free to move it...

I had so much PD drama last year that forced me to confront a lot of deep emotional pain in a short amount of time; I cut a lot of ties, went back into therapy, found this forum, spent a lot of time on my own (reading about things like narcissistic abuse), and I ended the year exhausted (although grateful to have finally found my feet firmly planted in reality). But now that I am trying to get on with my life, I find myself getting very triggered by Nons who enable or don't see the seriousness of PD behavior.

This happens to me when I hear people defending narcissistic celebrities, politicians, and other public figures. Or it happens at a personal level when someone defends an obviously manipulative person or gives the benefit of the doubt to someone I see as an abuser. Whereas before I might have been irritated by their words, now I start spiraling and I find it very hard to handle. I don't know why but I feel panicked by their lack of insight.

I don't know what to do. Last night I couldn't sleep because my new (and somewhat naive) flatmate was defending someone who I think of as a manipulator. I don't think they were gas-lighting me or anything. I think they truly believe that "everyone has some good in them"  and this person "thinks they are helping people"... and so on and so forth. But i found it very triggering. I'm wondering if I should say something to them about how these conversations affect me. But then I feel like I have somehow been weakened by my exposure to so much PD behavior that I cannot even tolerate other people not seeing it.

Am I going crazy?  :stars:

I'm also disappointed by this new flatmate's views even though they are a very nice person. I feel deeply saddened that good people prop up and enable abusive and exploitative behaviors in other people, even if they do not engage in those behaviors themselves.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on January 31, 2021, 01:03:17 PM
I totally get it. Totally. I just posted below about people who love bullies. My post is slightly different but what you've described explains so much of how I feel. The enablers drive me bonkers.

I've had to back away from a lot of people because they excuse or overlook abusive people. I have been very confused about this lately and don't know how to deal with it. Perhaps I am just in a very sensitive place in my healing process and I'll build a thicker skin and come to terms with other people's choices better in the future. But right now I am not able to do that.

The past four years have left me speechless too many times. When I see an abuser it is so obvious to me and it's because I have read so much about malignant narcissism and psychopathy and personality disorders in general. Many people have not read these things and I have to forgive that I think, but I find myself at times wanting to give them information. I don't though. I just slowly back away and feel sad.

I have absolutley no advice for you. I just really understand.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: DistanceNotDefense on January 31, 2021, 01:30:29 PM
I don't think you're going crazy Sapling. And I totally relate to how you feel.

I think it's really hard to warn people about a type of abuse that's extremely difficult to put into words. I mean, even people who leave cults that are rife with Narc (and more) abuse are still made fun of and blamed for what they went through, despite their being tons of literature, experts, and studies proving how legitimate brainwashing is, and we have gone through similar.

It's clearly such a nuanced experience that people just don't understand. (Or they don't want to). It's like we took the red pill in the Matrix, but others have taken the blue (or haven't taken either yet at all and are frankly just indecisive)

I still get extremely worked up when people close to me just don't see the patterns, tendencies, and tactics I notice in others that remind me of PD abuse. Because my FOO is exceptionally covert, I pick up on passive-aggressiveness, codependency, and self-victimizing now almost as if I were allergic to it.

I even have mutual friends with others that I have long stayed away from, and my close friends don't get why, and I don't explain why - especially when I don't seem to easily "give in" to subtle control. These people pick up on and single me out for it sometimes. It's just too hard to explain and they'd probably think I'm crazy. I can still spend time with these types but really not very often. It's so draining.

I have honestly given up on trying too hard to warn people about what I see, though I still can't help but open my mouth sometimes. I regret it more often than I feel like it actually made a difference, but that's just me. Only people who've been through it and are able to "wake up" to what's really happening will get it. I also think I have "rescuer" tendencies too that are all wrapped up in my own codependent upbringing, and have to remind myself that it's not my job to rescue others from their own situations by warning them...maybe that's not my job....it makes me feel better to do it, but frankly, it could be interfering with their own growth and where they're at, while I still have a ton of my own growing to do and to focus on.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 01:46:46 PM
During my divorce, my then husband was passive about and unresponsive regarding his role in the process, e.g., submitting documents. I was advised to keep records of all my contacts with him that pertained to the divorce, such as emails I sent or voicemail messages I left reminding him that something was due or a meeting had been scheduled or whatever. At some point, I told one of my brothers about this, and my brother told me that I should bend over backwards as far as my husband was concerned. I thought, "Bend over backwards? I'm an f'ing pretzel now!"
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 01:51:21 PM
Quote from: Hepatica on January 31, 2021, 01:03:17 PM
Perhaps I am just in a very sensitive place in my healing process and I'll build a thicker skin and come to terms with other people's choices better in the future. But right now I am not able to do that.
Thank you Hepatica, this is exactly how I feel. Thank you for drawing my attention to your post about how people love bullies. I agree that it is very disconcerting. I so appreciate your understanding right now because I feel so down about myself for feeling this fragile in the face of other people's ignorance about these tactics and power dynamics.

DistanceNotDefense, thank you for saying this:
Quote from: DistanceNotDefense on January 31, 2021, 01:30:29 PM
I don't think you're going crazy Sapling. And I totally relate to how you feel.

I think it's really hard to warn people about a type of abuse that's extremely difficult to put into words. I mean, even people who leave cults that are rife with Narc (and more) abuse are still made fun of and blamed for what they went through, despite their being tons of literature, experts, and studies proving how legitimate brainwashing is, and we have gone through similar.

I'm feeling really vulnerable at the moment and I too have to remind myself that its not my job to 'explain' things to people or rescue them from their situations. I think for me where it gets confusing is when people defend and enable behavior or are just blind to it, and I see all of the harm that will come from them trying to support that behavior. It makes me feel helpless and impotent.

Also, why are naive people so confident in their views?!?!   :roll: It's infuriating when someone with less life experience than you tried to explain to you how the world is, when they really have no idea what they're talking about

I cannot explain to you how quickly this one conversation sent me into a state of despair. It's really worrying  :sadno:
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 01:46:46 PM
During my divorce, my then husband was passive about and unresponsive regarding his role in the process, e.g., submitting documents. I was advised to keep records of all my contacts with him that pertained to the divorce, such as emails I sent or voicemail messages I left reminding him that something was due or a meeting had been scheduled or whatever. At some point, I told one of my brothers about this, and my brother told me that I should bend over backwards as far as my husband was concerned. I thought, "Bend over backwards? I'm an f'ing pretzel now!"

I hope you mean that your brother was telling you that's what your ex husband thought, not what he (your brother) thought you should do! How awful. I'm sorry you had to go through this  :no:
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 02:06:48 PM
Sapling, my brother thought I should bend over backwards to make things easier for my then husband during the divorce. I felt very triggered by my brother's statement.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 02:12:30 PM
Poison Ivy, that is awful. Honestly, when I hear things like that I just think wtf is wrong with people?! Good on you for leaving a relationship that wasn't working and going through with the divorce despite being made to jump through hoops to get it. Fwiw I think that takes guts  :applause:
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 02:15:48 PM
I guess my next question is:

Does anyone have any advice on what to do once you have been triggered by a Non in your life? How do you get back to being grounded again and feeling sane and being able to interact with them without blaming them and their ignorance for what you've suffered at the hands of PDs?
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 02:23:13 PM
I think the most difficult part is when I'm wondering whether the nonPD person is right and I'm wrong. "Gee, maybe I'M the one with a personality problem. Maybe I'm being too harsh on my spouse! Brother is right about other things" and so on. At this stage in my life, I've learned things not only about myself and my ex but also about my brother. He's basically a nice person but not very deep psychologically. He has chosen to stay in a marriage with a person who is not very nice to him. His comments come from how he has chosen to proceed in life, and I now realize I don't have to accept that because he's right about some stuff, he's right about everything.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: DistanceNotDefense on January 31, 2021, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 01:51:21 PM
I cannot explain to you how quickly this one conversation sent me into a state of despair. It's really worrying  :sadno:

Sapling, it's definitely a different thing altogether when that person is your flatmate! I would really struggle with this. I would feel like I would need a lot of space from this person somehow even if I lived with them.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 02:06:48 PM
Sapling, my brother thought I should bend over backwards to make things easier for my then husband during the divorce. I felt very triggered by my brother's statement.

Poison Ivy. Omg. This is SO messed up.

I agree with you that I think your brother told you that because he does that with his own marriage. You bringing up a better and more empowered approach makes him uncomfortable.

Quote from: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 02:15:48 PM
I guess my next question is:

Does anyone have any advice on what to do once you have been triggered by a Non in your life? How do you get back to being grounded again and feeling sane and being able to interact with them without blaming them and their ignorance for what you've suffered at the hands of PDs?

Heavy, heavy doses of boundaries, space, and alone time separate from them (insert laughing/crying face here) I take a break and put things on pause.

I have a carousel of friends/mutual acquaintances who trigger me this way sometimes, and I tend to just cut down how often I see/interact with them (a couple times a month, every 3 months, etc.) and it starts to feel better with time and space without feeling like I'm literally avoiding them (easy to chalk it up to busyness or whatever, etc.) I may feel too impelled to be antagonistic and stressed otherwise. I try not to cut them off completely which I've done with others in the past. I'm learning so much about boundaries....
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on January 31, 2021, 02:56:37 PM
Sapling,

Maybe just note to yourself the topics to avoid with someone who throws you into confusion, and work on getting really strong within yourself. Trust your smarts and instincts no matter what an untrust-worthy person says. I find this is a huge part of everything for me, the standing by myself and not losing myself to the narratives of the PD's and the enablers. It's one of the hardest parts because I am prone to move into confusion and self-doubt as if it is a groove that I can fall into with the slightest nudge. This is after years of interacting with a FOO who uses gaslighting as their ultimate control weapon. 

The more I get certain that I believe what I am feeling and thinking, the better for my healing and self-esteem. I have to really work on not falling into those old patterns.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2021, 03:01:47 PM
 :yeahthat:
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: SparkStillLit on January 31, 2021, 03:39:59 PM
I hope it's not me.
I'm frankly sick of all these PDs around me trying to force me to do something or other. Ramping up their forceful awful behavior to try to intimidate me into doing what they want, which is giving them information and power over other people and me. I'm tired of being used. I'm pushing back. It's exhausting, because being PDs they never lie down or back off, they go to the next level. They are scary people.
I once read about "hungry ghosts", and I immediately wondered if they exist on this plane, because if they do, it describes updh to a tee.
Insatiable. Even if he gets what he wants, he then wants more and more of it, like a drug. It does no good.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Janeite V on January 31, 2021, 10:13:43 PM
One of the lines that triggers me the most is "judging that person makes you just as bad, if not worse, than they are." These people seem to think they see people in shades of grey and yet have no concept of degree.

In many cases, I think people are mistaking personable behaviour with being a good person. Narcissists and other predators can be extremely personable.

Other times, I think it is just good old fashioned victim blaming and just world fallacy.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on February 01, 2021, 04:58:44 AM
"Heavy, heavy doses of boundaries, space, and alone time separate from them (insert laughing/crying face here) I take a break and put things on pause."

Thanks DistanceNotDefense. That is exactly what I've done. I do feel a bit bad because they're new in the flat but I just need to also adjust my own expectations about where this person can meet me.

Thanks Poison Ivy for your thoughts. And yes, I am not surprised your brother is in a dysfunctional marriage. It is probably veru confronting for him to see you leave a situation he can't/won't leave. 

Janeite V, SparkStillLit, Hepatica. Thank you for your sound advice. "Trust your smarts and instincts no matter what an untrust-worthy person says. " I know what I need to work on here.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: LemonLime on February 01, 2021, 12:27:15 PM
Of course you're not crazy Sapling.  I think one of the worst parts of having a PD is our lives can be how crazy we can start to feel.  Please don't go down that rabbit hole.

It's ignorance.  People are ignorant.  And most people do not let their ignorance get in the way of having a strong opinion about just about everything.  :)
And now that I say this I realize one of the other worst parts of having a PD in my life is how lonely I feel in it.  Trying to get people to understand, even most therapists, is so so frustrating.  That's why this board is a savior.   People GET IT here.

Frankly, watching people the past 4 years waiting for a certain politician (who shall remain nameless) to "reach bottom" or "realize the harm he's doing" or "finally feel some empathy" has been heartbreaking for me.  I knew how this terrible story was going to end.  And it ended in just the flavor I was expecting.  I was not the least bit surprised at the daily horrors that my fellow citizens were subjected to.   And even my DH, who knows a bit about PDs due to my experience with PDs, still naively thought this politician might change and learn.   I knew better and I was right.  Apparently people have to fully feel the wrath of a PD personally in order to "get it" and many don't even "get it" after being gaslighted and DARVO'd.    It's truly a strange disease, this PD.   :stars:

I have tried to garner some empathy for the people who don't get it by remembering how naive I was about so many topics in life, until I experienced them myself.   I'm sure I gave terrible parenting advice before I was a parent.  Same about marriage advice.  And before I had health problems I gave bad advice about dealing with the emotional aspects of health problems.   That helps me a bit in dealing with naive people.

But I think we are scared of what the PDs can do.  We know their power, and we don't want to see the world ruined by them.  We want more people "on our side".  For me, I want my PD to feel the pain of having others reject them....or rather I want their world to come crashing in enough to make them need to take a look at how they're doing life.   As of now, if I'm the only one going VLC, they can reasonably make a case that it's my problem not theirs.  And that sucks.

I love all the advice already given by others.  The insight into Poison Ivy's brother is brilliant.  I always forget how important it is to remember that most of what people say to others is really about themselves in some way.   Note to self:  when someone gives advice that seems naive or really off-base, ask yourself what they are resisting seeing.     Hugs

Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Sapling on February 02, 2021, 07:02:45 AM
You're so right LemonLime. I do just want more people to GET IT and I get really disheartened when they not only don't get it but are really confident that they know how people work and everyone (in their mind) has the best of intentions. I think I'm also confronted by the naivete because I see it as the silent accomplice or invisible fuel of people who abuse power (whether that is the power of an oval office or the power one has over their children/lover/friend/employee etc). I find it hard to take but I see what you're saying about how we've all been naive about something and its worth reflecting on that when I feel myself spiraling.

I'm definitely going to use that Note to self:  "when someone gives advice that seems naive or really off-base, ask yourself what they are resisting seeing."
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hazy111 on February 02, 2021, 10:58:28 AM
It is my contention for a long time that PD is far more common than people realise and enablers of PDs are  sometimes PD.   They are the covert passive ones.  Or they are submissive "fawn" types.

They were raised by PD parents and learnt to pacify and please the PD parent . Its a behavior carried into adulthood and when they come across a PD that reminds them of either or both parents they slip easily into enabling behavior . Its not even in conscious its sub conscious. Ive witnessed it in the family and with work colleagues and  so called friends, lots of situations even forums .

When you think about it a non PD person wouldnt tolerate such behavior , they would be repelled by it and act accordingly.

Once youve seen it , you cant unsee it. Its everywhere.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on February 02, 2021, 11:22:29 AM
Hazy111,

I really agree. I've come across this appeasement in people toward PD like behaviour in all areas of my life too, in work, family and as you say, online forums.

Some people don't seem to have that "line in the sand" that I have where I see something and I'm like, woah, that's abnormal, I'm moving far away. Others move in closer, forgive, and appease a toxic person and they seem to take pride in it. It does seem to be likely that this was played out in their family of origin. Some people do not want to wake up to see their parent as flawed at all. And when they see familiar patterns in the outside world, they continue to take that loyal stance with anyone that reminds them of the dysfunctional parent.

This is my sister in a nutshell. She and I have taken entirely different routes with the FOO. She moves in closer to my uNPD parents while I back away. She also supports leaders that have very overt NPD characteristics and writes off the red flags entirely, pointing out only what she thinks are good qualities.

What does this mean for those of us who see it and make decisions about it? I wonder why I seemed to see it? I just knew the behaviours of my parents were beyond just wrong choices, that it indicated something very frightening. I suppose going to therapy helped me wake up slowly and moving away and seeing how normal people love each other helped too. My sister never left our home town and chose a very traditional route. She also was gifted with a very upbeat, charming personality that seemed to get her thru for many years, until she hit her fifties and began to really have to look at herself. Will she ever see? I don't know.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hazy111 on February 02, 2021, 11:35:52 AM
Yes Hepatica,, the truth can be very very painful. "Denial" ( immature defense ) is the greatest weapon the PD has. How many people do you know are in denial?? Its scary.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: LemonLime on February 02, 2021, 11:52:36 AM
I'm in the healthcare field.  I can't tell you how often this scenario has played out:

There's a patient who exhibits PD-like behavior.  Usually NPD or BPD.  Splits staff, verbally abuses staff.
One clinician decides that they "get" the patient and that the patient is being unduly negatively characterized by the rest of the staff, that he is "misunderstood".
That clinician becomes the "savior" and wears it like a badge of honor, as in "you people just don't have the patience I have and the genius I have".
This causes huge resentment around the clinic, as everyone else feels negatively judged.  The PD patient  senses this and LOVES it.
Usually the Golden Child clinician eventually gets discarded by the PD patient.
And the cycle starts again, but nobody dissects the situation to see what really happened and how to prevent it.   Nobody sees that the whole clinic was "played" by the PD.  So all that is left is resentments among the staff.   A PD fantasy come true!
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on February 02, 2021, 12:13:06 PM
Someone sent a meme on FB last week that is so true. It was a reminder from our local Domestic Assault Centre that said that telling someone who was abused that the abuser never treated them that way, is not okay. It speaks to what you are saying LemonLime, that PD's have learnt very well that they really only have to wear their mask and treat a few people nicely, and then go on to treat other people horribly and the abuser will always have someone who will stand up for them against the person (or people) they are harming. That sinister dark art of confusion and division. It must drive you crazy LemonLime. I saw it in my workplace and it broke me down.

I think that example speaks to the core of why we are so triggered by the Nons and enablers. It means that the abusive person rarely gets held accountable for their behaviour and those of us who have been abused never seem to get the full on support that would really help us heal.

Hazy111 You're so right. Denial is the best weapon the PD has. My uNPD father knows this so well and keeps my sister close. She is brilliant at her job (being the GC and enabler) and talks to everyone about my parents long committed marriage... Bleck. Denial.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: DistanceNotDefense on February 02, 2021, 06:53:24 PM
Quote from: LemonLime on February 02, 2021, 11:52:36 AM
One clinician decides that they "get" the patient and that the patient is being unduly negatively characterized by the rest of the staff, that he is "misunderstood".
That clinician becomes the "savior" and wears it like a badge of honor, as in "you people just don't have the patience I have and the genius I have".
This causes huge resentment around the clinic, as everyone else feels negatively judged.  The PD patient  senses this and LOVES it.

Wow this is so familiar...I've been in both work or friend dynamics like this many times. (And my FOO of course. Reminds me of my M)

In my personal experiences with things like this, it might be more than one person claiming to "understand" the PD and enabling them, thereby forming kind of a "clique." It eventually falls apart (with discard) or I don't know how it ends because I get as far away as I can....

It's so blatant how the enabler takes the PD's side and hoists themselves up - it's all about getting some power and protecting themselves from that very behavior they end up carrying out themselves. Dare I say it seems kind of cowardly? I feel bad for these types though, because I really believe they have no clue they do this or it's extremely unconscious.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: ChillNow on February 02, 2021, 11:47:17 PM
Great question and answers.  I'm thinking that enablers mostly haven't (yet) understood the dynamics and dangers of PD - or are looking at something as a stand-alone situation and haven't seen the patterns.

Many of us didn't want to appear judgmental.  Also, in our religious training, some of us kept hearing terms like 'forgive seventy times seven.'  With a PD, though, that can easily tip over into enabling or at least questionable boundaries.

I think that in time, as we heal more and more, we will no longer be as triggered when we encounter enablers.

There is an encouraging YouTube video named 'When narcissism meets authenticity' by DoctorRamani.  She describes how an authentic (= wise) person smoothly dismisses narcissistic people without drama and without exhausting themselves.  Maybe some of that can be applied to enablers as well? 
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: GettingOOTF on February 03, 2021, 06:46:39 AM
Quote from: Sapling on January 31, 2021, 02:15:48 PM
I guess my next question is:

Does anyone have any advice on what to do once you have been triggered by a Non in your life? How do you get back to being grounded again and feeling sane and being able to interact with them without blaming them and their ignorance for what you've suffered at the hands of PDs?

I used to really battle with being triggered. I used to think it was my purpose in life to convince others of the “truth”.

Over the years I have taken a big step back. I see that peoples views and actions have nothing to do with me. They are formed by their very own experiences and they believe what they do for the same reasons I believe what I do.

I was really Codependent. Being triggered the way I was and trying to talk people around was part of my need for control that comes from Codependency. I read Codependent No More and I really started working on myself. I switched my focus from what others thought to my own behaviors and why I was triggered.

I’m hardly triggered at all now by things that used to send me spinning. I have a real “live and let live” when it comes to this stuff now. I simply don’t engage. It’s their life and they are allowed to make their own mistakes and hold their own view.

You are never ever ever going to convince someone that they are wrong. This is something they need to come to see on their own through their own experience and self work.

“What other people think of me is none of my business” is one of my mantras. In general what other people think and feel is 100% on them and I leave it there.

I really recommend learning about Codependency. Doing so has really opened up my life in so many ways.

All that said, I did also remove some people from my life. There are certain beliefs and views I simply won’t tolerate in my life. Rather than try to show people where they are are wrong I cut contact. I feel calmer and more supported surrounded by people who are supportive and loving in their views. It makes stressful events like the elections infinitely less stressful for me. I simply don’t let other people’s views and actions impact my life in any meaningful and disruptive way anymore.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hazy111 on February 03, 2021, 11:27:32 AM
You are never ever ever going to convince someone that they are wrong. This is something they need to come to see on their own through their own experience and self work.

PDs dont want to be cured as they dont think theres anything wrong with them. Its a narcissistic world. Switch on the TV, radio, go on line, family, friends, colleagues even you and you see narcissits. They are there hiding in plain site. Once you see it and recognise the telltales its blatantly obvious.

There are the covert narcs who love being in the company, friends of the more successful powerful  narc in their eyes. So they always make excuses for them. They are blind to their failings.

Its very hard to avoid, but avoidance is the best medicine .  Trust your instincts as people have said. If it doesnt feel right , it isnt.

Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on February 03, 2021, 12:02:27 PM
A personal experience I had at work nearly broke me. I mean, you know the ugly cry, and the suicidal thoughts? I had stood up for something I believed in regarding self-care at work, and it went against the wishes of one of the meanest NPD employees I've come across in my working career. She was strategic in that she infiltrated the union reps in the first few months after she was hired and made them personal friends ie. went out for drinks with one of them and told them everything about our department, including the people she hated.

She hated me and while I can never have ultimate proof, a true friend went to the union for something related to her position, a personal thing, and that union rep., the mean employee's new friend, picked her brain about ME. She said things to my friend that were complete fabrications, things she thought that I'd done, that I had not done. She tried to get this friend on side with her to destroy me. My friend came to me instead and told me what she had said about me.

I remember standing there in the parking lot with her when she told me and falling apart. I was scared to go to work. I was scared that if I ever had an issue, I could not go to the union. I had been a pretty naive person. I really thought that people were mostly good. I have never felt such fear and betrayal and this ultimate sense that I was in danger, because they were tearing apart my reputation with lies. Many people enabled this. Some people stayed neutral.

After it happened, when I went to meetings, if there was one empty chair beside me, people would stand, rather than sit beside me. These people destroyed my reputation and I could not get it back, because many people believed the union rep. They didn't just do it to me. They did it to others, often the brightest and best of the group in my department. Complete lies about the people. One of my former friends there, believed this ridiculous lie about my co-worker. I couldn't believe she chose to believe the lie verses the rebuttal by the co-worker, who tried to stand up for herself.

I had a nervous breakdown after a year of micro-aggressions by many of the enablers at that workplace. I was a good worker and I found joy in that job, but I have not worked since.

I don't know how to stop this kind of enabling. I think that is why I am so triggered by it now.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: LemonLime on February 03, 2021, 01:05:14 PM
Wow, these are powerful stories.  I was forever changed after my first experience up-close-and-personal with a Narc, who happened to be my business co-owner.   I hadn't known her well before going into business with her, as I had been in a desperate situation looking for work and hadn't bothered to get to know her well before making a deal to start the business with her.   She was beautiful and successful in her field and very personable.  She made me feel lucky to be "chosen" to go into business with her.  But over the year we worked together she systematically abused all the employees.  And when she then tried to cheat me out of money and I didn't let her (I hired an attorney), she began trying to destroy my livelihood.   She tried to destroy my reputation in the medical field, and she actually called to cancel my accounts (impersonating my voice) with my various vendors so that my expected shipments of supplies would not arrive.  I could hardly believe this could happen in real life, it sounded like something out of "Fatal Attraction" or "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle" or some psycho movie.   The only way I got her to stop pursuing me was to have my attorney send her a registered letter that told her to cease and desist her harassment, to never speak to me again and to only communicate with me through my attorney.   He intimated he would get a restraining order against her if she persisted.   She backed off, we ended our business contract and I high-tailed the heck away from her never to see her again, thank Goodness.

I truly believe that were it not for hiring the attorney I would have been destroyed by her.   Some of these PD's will only be stopped by a lawsuit.  In fact I found out later she had at least 2 other lawsuits against her for various business deals gone bad, where she had pulled similar stunts with her plumber and contractor, trying to avoid paying them for work they did for her.

I was quite the naive and trusting person.  Why wouldn't I be?   These narcs can "smell" the naive and trusting folks and take them down like an injured gazelle.
I was chosen by her the same way a sex predator chooses a naive and lonely child to abuse. I will never be quite the same after this experience, and it was very very traumatic but I did learn to recognize narcissism.

Which is why now I see it quite a bit around me.

The question I have learned to ask myself is not "What can I do to make them understand, or to see my point of view?"
It's now "Is this someone who is healthy and makes my life better?".    If the answer is "no" I get as far away as possible and never look back.

Granted this can be much more difficult to do if the PD is family, or is in charge of your country or something.    But at least recognizing the dysfunction and knowing that it is not mine to try to change the PD saves a ton of emotional energy and time.

You guys give very good advice and it helps me a lot.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: DistanceNotDefense on February 03, 2021, 10:38:23 PM
Quote from: LemonLime on February 03, 2021, 01:05:14 PM
The question I have learned to ask myself is not "What can I do to make them understand, or to see my point of view?"
It's now "Is this someone who is healthy and makes my life better?".    If the answer is "no" I get as far away as possible and never look back.

I totally agree LemonLime. I'm really starting to feel that any desire to change, have an effect on, or control PDs, bullies, enablers etc. and hoping to stop them or get them to understand or change their ways, is like being in quicksand. No use fighting back, no use trying to "show them the light." The more you struggle, the deeper you sink. Best to just disengage and move on, and get the hell away, mentally and physically!...grey rock, medium chill, no JADEing, boundaries, NC and all that...

Like I've noticed some of the mods say - we can't do things in the hope to control, punish, or even enlighten a PD, only to find peace in our own lives. I look back on my life and the only solution to narc tendencies/PDs has been putting as much distance between me and them as I can!

Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hazy111 on February 04, 2021, 09:26:54 AM
Quote from: Hepatica on February 03, 2021, 12:02:27 PM
A personal experience I had at work nearly broke me. I mean, you know the ugly cry, and the suicidal thoughts? I had stood up for something I believed in regarding self-care at work, and it went against the wishes of one of the meanest NPD employees I've come across in my working career. She was strategic in that she infiltrated the union reps in the first few months after she was hired and made them personal friends ie. went out for drinks with one of them and told them everything about our department, including the people she hated.

She hated me and while I can never have ultimate proof, a true friend went to the union for something related to her position, a personal thing, and that union rep., the mean employee's new friend, picked her brain about ME. She said things to my friend that were complete fabrications, things she thought that I'd done, that I had not done. She tried to get this friend on side with her to destroy me. My friend came to me instead and told me what she had said about me.

I remember standing there in the parking lot with her when she told me and falling apart. I was scared to go to work. I was scared that if I ever had an issue, I could not go to the union. I had been a pretty naive person. I really thought that people were mostly good. I have never felt such fear and betrayal and this ultimate sense that I was in danger, because they were tearing apart my reputation with lies. Many people enabled this. Some people stayed neutral.

After it happened, when I went to meetings, if there was one empty chair beside me, people would stand, rather than sit beside me. These people destroyed my reputation and I could not get it back, because many people believed the union rep. They didn't just do it to me. They did it to others, often the brightest and best of the group in my department. Complete lies about the people. One of my former friends there, believed this ridiculous lie about my co-worker. I couldn't believe she chose to believe the lie verses the rebuttal by the co-worker, who tried to stand up for herself.

I had a nervous breakdown after a year of micro-aggressions by many of the enablers at that workplace. I was a good worker and I found joy in that job, but I have not worked since.

I don't know how to stop this kind of enabling. I think that is why I am so triggered by it now.

:yeahthat: Wow that is scarily familiar. With me it was a manager. Looking back now he was a paranoid socio/psychopath.  Id see him bully and smear  other co workers to me . Then it was me on the end of it. I didnt twig. I was in his cross hairs as others had been. I was subjected to disciplinary actions that were designed to force me out.  I eventually resigned after being off sick with the stress of it.

Hes still there, no doubt plotting and scheming against others. They never stop. As someone said to me at work, its always someone in the cross hairs, make sure its not you. I heard bits and pieces from various sources and everything fell into place.  There was no one on my side. They all kept their heads down.  A fellow worker had been sacked in the time i was of sick. He was one of their best employees but the pyscho took against him even though they had been colleagues for years . He explained to me that it was the manager that had done for me. He said he had listened to him rubbishing me for years. 

You have my sincerest sympathy.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hepatica on February 04, 2021, 09:43:05 AM
Same for you Hazy111, my sincerest sympathy.

I think these stories are why this post is so important. The question is when do the enablers take out the psychopath/malignant narcissist, once it is so evidently clear they are toxic and destroying not only the work environment but good people's lives???

I am stuck about this. I guess the only thing is to document, document everything. The mean employee that went after me, began a pattern where she did the same to other employees. One in particular that had enabled her for years, and the mean girl, took even her down. But.... everything was documented and a good, thick file was made over the years and eventually the mean employee left. She must have had one too many talkings to by the upper realms who were getting very tired of her very obvious toxicity (due to the file which could not be denied.)

I have no idea what you do when it's a manager though. That's really tough. I'd definitely keep documentation and keep observing. I suppose with many people, they really just have to quietly and secretly seek other work.

That said, one of the managers at the old workplace of mine, was forced out. She was very toxic and divisive. People caught on and eventually the higher ups got rid of her.
Title: Re: Getting triggered by Nons who don't realise they are Enablers
Post by: Hazy111 on February 05, 2021, 08:51:34 AM
Hepatica,

There are many many stories similar to yours and my own on this site. My manager was a very loyal and hard working bully. He would always go the extra mile for the company and worked long hours. He did  work others didnt want to.  Maybe this contributed to his mood. But no one made him , he was just so chronically insecure about his position. He treated his staff abysmally, ranting and raving, reducing people to tears, but it was a local office , so only a few staff witnessed it and he knew he could get away with it. He was very cunning. Some days he was life and soul, laughing and joking, the next... :evil2: A female colleague suffered from MS and he told me he thought she was "putting it on" . That was his level.

Another female colleague once snapped and complained about his treatment of her. There was a nominal investigation, with someone from head office came, and asked a few staff what he was like , but he never asked me. nothing changed.  A year later when the company was making redundancies, guess who was made redundant...her.

I once used to listen to a phone in radio show and every topic under the sun was discussed, and the host said the one subject that got the most responses was workplace bullying. It starts in the home, then school then work.

Like i said i think PD is the norm. What gets discussed mainly on this site, they are the extremes, they come in all shapes and sizes.