I've been tracking this behavior as I have been more aware. Is anyone else treated like a servant? I'll explain: I am talking about the idea that a servant is invisible unless needed. It's not about her demanding that I do things or serve her every need. It's as though I am a victorian era servant standing in the wings expected to be there the moment there is need but completely ignored otherwise. I am invisible, ignored, not worthy of inclusion in a discussion and I don't think she would notice I was not here if she didn't occasionally need help. I started tracking it last week in my journal and it's been 6 days. It's probably longer but the tracking has been 6 days. If there is a need to control what I do she engaged and if she needs something she engages but there is no casual "hello", "how was your day", or "nice to see you".
I used to say these things and it always annoyed her. But I actually think the whole civility and normal behavior thing is a problem.for PD's
Yes. All the time.
This is a *perfect description of what I feel like.
Why I can never really relax into anything or any self care with updh around. Depending on mood, I'm either being stalked, or ignored until something is wanted and then DAMMIT!! Why wasn't I on it YESTERDAY!!!
As much as I am trying to get over that...well....I'm not entirely certain how one even gets over the stalking, and I do still cringe and jump at the demands. Internally. It's just so ingrained after so many years, even though I do more often think out a mindful response, more than in the past certainly.
You are and always will be an object to the PD person. If they can use you as a servant, they will. Their needs come first, always.
Some PDs are more manipulative and clever and will indulge people with small talk and pretend to be interested in them and give them gifts (often money) to buy your loyalty and guilt you, help you with stuff etc. Its all a means to an end. Its all fake and insincere.
At least you have the knowledge that there is no mirage , its open and blatant abuse.
Hazy 111 hit the nail on the head...
"...manipulative and clever and will indulge people with small talk and pretend to be interested in them and give them gifts (often money) to buy your loyalty and guilt you, help you with stuff etc. Its all a means to an end. Its all fake and insincere.
So true.
On the servant thing... and they don't say please either...
Once a pastor was at our home. As I was serving beverages, my unpdh was talking about something... he said to me, "honey, why don't you trot upstairs and get me ____ whatever it was.
The pastor called him on it... Trot? What is she, some kind of race horse? He also had no respect IMO, referring to me as if I were not in the room.
Both of them failed but I never heard the term again.
It is a good thing when others who they want to impress call them on their stuff. But it is rare.
Religious N's are everywhere.
Yeah I get that one. Always had to be on my toes listening for him to start yelling at me. There was never a day to relax because if I didn't keep busy cleaning or whatever he would find something for me. It made me so anxious.
And Hazy 111 got it right. My ex would buy me nice things but nothing I ever really wanted, not much thought in it. And my ex was a master with manipulation and while I thought he was maybe sincere it was more for show.
The phrasing "I'll let you get that/do that" particularly if it's something he doesn't want to do.
I've started saying just a straight "no" to this stuff. As in a complete sentence. I really hate "I'll let"
Yes, all the time. Often she'll order me to do something with/for the children. Get this, do that. I'll be at the other end of the house, and she'll be right next to the children or the thing to be got!
My XH used to say "Why don't you FETCH me that thing?"
To which I would reply "I'm not a DOG!"
My husband and I jokingly refer to ourselves as "subjects" when it comes to our respective PD mothers. And it's not just us, of course. It's everyone in their orbit.
H told unPD MIL a few weeks ago that he'd enjoy their conversations more if she wasn't always demanding to visit us or vice versa. She said, "I do not do that! When I want to see your sister, I don't have to demand anything! I just say to her, 'When are you coming home?' and she comes."
:flat:
I guess it's not a demand if the loyal subject dutifully does as the queen says.
I am so angry at myself lately and bitter that I've allowed this to happen.
Not only am i a servant, I work full time, being in significantly more money than he does, yet he tells me how much I can spend and on what. I come home from work and an expected to wait on him. Like others have said, god forbid I try to relax, he needs my help or there's something I should be doing. Not supposed to sleep in on weekends either. Requests are often one word, or not a full sentence, rarely phrase or thank you.
I've honestly started saying no. Just plain no. Somebody around here says "No is a complete sentence" well I've taken that to heart. If I feel more charitable, I soften it up a bit with some pleasantries, but of late I'm fucking tired, I'm the only one working, and I'm sick of anybody but me getting ANY say how I use my damn time. HE is home all day, if he wants food or clean dishes or what the hell ever, he isn't any form of disabled. He can get off his ass and deal with it.
Plus I'm sick of fits. I DID my time with toddlers. I didn't HAVE any more children, and now they're grown and nearly grown. I'm not interested in permanent toddlers.
Wow, did you phrase this better than anything description I have come up with
In the morning, after my OCPDxh would wake, I would get a cup of coffee and wait at the table, bottom of the stairs by the front door. I would just wait. For whatever instruction he would throw, keys to find, where are my shoes, call so and so, do this, research that, whatever he wanted. If I wasn't there he would go looking for me. Never in all my years of working or leaving the house, did I do that. I found my own keys and shoes.
And lord help me if I didn't complete the to do list by noon when he called. Didn't matter if I was sick, on chemo, kids sick, whatever, His list had to be done by noon.
I often felt like his unpaid secretary.
8 days and counting for me. It's weird for me, the acts of service that I love to give are not an issue for me at all. It's the complete dissociation and ignoring I exist except for the gets me down. I have always envied those real or imaginary couples where the spouses depend on each other for comfort and interaction as a primary source of emotional well being. Not speaking of the disney fairy tale, I mean the idea that "I had a bad day and what would make me feel better is a hug from her/him".
I'm just a robot solution there as a source of continuum in normal activities but not important enough to acknowledge or depend on beyond the tasks as assigned. All other things do not matter such as saying hello, giving a hug, asking how was your day, sitting with, eating with or including in activities.
In my case there is no affair she is having, there is just a drive of control. She doesn't need, want or expect any involvement with anyone for any reason beyond the activities she controls and handles. All other parts of the world do not exist. I'm just the part that has to be closest to her.
Jsinjin once I wrote in my journal that I was like a piece of sporting equipment or some other type of thing like that, that he expected to be ready to hand to use when he wanted, and to always be maintained and functioning perfectly (through no effort on his part), and then to be chucked back in the closet when he was through. Sporting equipment doesn't have NEEDS or WANTS or any PERSONALITY OF ITS OWN, and it was extremely irritating that I did.
That's more or less what the entry said. That was like 23 years ago. Maybe more. I feel dumb saying that.
Quote from: Jsinjin on April 07, 2021, 07:23:25 AM
It's the complete dissociation and ignoring I exist except for the gets me down. I have always envied those real or imaginary couples where the spouses depend on each other for comfort and interaction as a primary source of emotional well being. Not speaking of the disney fairy tale, I mean the idea that "I had a bad day and what would make me feel better is a hug from her/him".
This is exactly the hard part.
Recently, uBPDh worked very late several days in a row. He saw no need to give advance notice, explanations or apologies. DD pointed out she hadn't seen or heard from dad in 5 days. In that time I had gotten two "working late" texts.
Suddenly, one day, he comes home early and expects dinner served and the kids to be excited to play video games with him. Yes, so much like a servant or a piece of sporting equipment.
I just realized this is a perfect example of how I've changed my reaction, but he hasn't changed at all. In the past, I would demand explanations, let him know I was hurt, make snide comments. He would DARVO, I'd end up apologizing. I've stopped expecting common courtesy. He continues to behave this way, but it's no longer a struggle. What it is is discouraging and lonely.
My father phoned me every single day after my mom died and he was on his own.
Always about 10 o clock at night, when i discovered he would do his round of calls. I was like 3 or 4 on the list. I dutifully answered of course. I mentioned this to my therapist at the time and he said why dont you just stop answering. I was like aghast i cant do that ! Anyway i tried and he just kept phoning and phoning , then getting others to phone me. I was deep in the fog back then.
I once asked him , did he phone my sister every day and he just answered " No, she doesnt answer". So thats that. I do, so he rings me. That was then , not now.
I was reading Masterson (the acknowledged expert on PD) and he described the schizoid personality as being raised in a master/servant family. The child is their to perform for the parents needs from very early on and then ignored. Its emotional needs are ignored , gives up on the mother, and uses itself to self regulate emotional needs
Quote from: Hazy111 on April 07, 2021, 08:53:34 AM
I once asked him , did he phone my sister every day and he just answered " No, she doesnt answer". So thats that. I do, so he rings me.
Many thanks for sharing this, Hazy.
Gosh, so powerful. There it is. We do it so they do it. Also it really does show they really don't care who does what they want, as long as it is done.
I'm haunted by 4 words, "I need you to..."
I usually heard this several times, Every. Single. Day.
And usually these, "I need you to" favors/demands were really petty things, but things that would make me feel weird if I said no. Example. I would be standing outside, talking to him and he''d interrupt me and say, "hey, pick that up and throw it away." And I'm like "huh?" because I'd be confused, I mean, I was talking to him about something. And he'd point to a small piece of trash (like a sticky note or something) that was lying on the ground between us. It always irked me because these types of things happened constantly and it really felt like he just liked ordering me around. Or if I walked up to him and he was watering the plants, he'd say, "here, water these plants, I need to....." The only way I can describe it is that it felt like he was trying to steal my energy, time, and agency. It's like I was just an extension of him. There was no thought that I might have been in the middle of something else and/or that I was a separate person.
I feel sick just thinking about it. It made me anxious and I started to avoid him because it seemed like every time he saw me, every interaction we had, he had some task. Ugh.
Update/edit: Just remembered something. Once, when I was outside working in the garden, pulling weeds and tidying up, he walked by and said, "I just love it when you work, it's such a turn on."
Um, thanks? 🤦♀️
I had to be ready and at disposal at any time. I bet my narc regretted that I was not on remote control.
When I dared to complain I was called uncooperative.
His favourite command was "You will buy me this... or you will wash me this jacket."
Emphasis on WILL (= no chance of avoiding) and on ME.
And of course nothing I did was good.
(Damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
After I left him I told him that the reason for my leaving was that I was not worthy enough, so I decided to withdraw.
He perceived that as a lethal offence.
But I was too emptied, exhausted and worn out to care.
Quote from: Empie2204 on April 11, 2021, 08:33:32 AM
I had to be ready and at disposal at any time. I bet my narc regretted that I was not on remote control.
When I dared to complain I was called uncooperative.
His favourite command was "You will buy me this... or you will wash me this jacket."
Emphasis on WILL (= no chance of avoiding) and on ME.
And of course nothing I did was good.
(Damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
After I left him I told him that the reason for my leaving was that I was not worthy enough, so I decided to withdraw.
He perceived that as a lethal offence.
But I was too emptied, exhausted and worn out to care.
Empie, are you ok? This sounds kind on the abusive side of manipulation as in potentially physical. Stay safe.
Thoughts and prayers.
Jsj
Thanks all for the thoughts on this.
My experiences are that I'm not expected to do anything. I'm not commanded or told to do something as a task. I'm just not noticed or engaged with at all unless there is a specific need for me and then the interaction is only like a coffee maker or washing machine. I do what is asked because that's the way she sees me as a servant.
It's a weird dynamic because I am the single sole and solitary breadwinner and we are well off. She doesn't demand anything of me specifically but the expectations is that like a machine it's just understood that I do the work and be present when needed. I'm also under no circumstances allowed to do anything she hasn't approved. Even putting away groceries or stopping off to buy a gallon of milk on the way home or rearranging my own vehicle glove compartment or disposing of ties and shirts from my own college era (20 years ago) can result in explosive anger. But otherwise I'm completely ignored.
An example: we live on a very large suburban lot of 2 acres. It takes several hours to mow it and she would never mow it. She hates garden and lawn tractors for some reason so we can only buy a hand mower. I Lead a large team at a multinational company and I run a second consulting company. My time is short and I like to use leisure time for kid and joy activities. I wouldn't dare buy a garden tractor because of the potential for violent anger. Our neighbor had a lawn service and as a treat to myself and to save time I took money from my travel reimbursement and hired them at a reasonable rate to mow. After the first time, while I was standing there she took the envelope from me I was using to pay them, handed it to them, without speaking to me she informed them that "JSinJin will be mowing his own property from now on and their services will not be needed anymore"
Except she doesn't have to do the mowing. I don't like to do it, I bought the property and paid it off, I work hard jobs, Her only role is unpaid elected official with dozens of meetings and calls per week but it's basically volunteer work. She never even asked me what I wanted to do, simply decided that I would be mowing my own property as though I'm just an appliance. Never spoke about it, never treated me as anything but a servant. Wont even engage with me to talk about the issue or what I want. We also don't struggle financially. The houses are paid off, the cars and kids college are paid off. But it was decided for me that I'm the person who has to mow the lawn as a simple matter of fact.
Quote from: Jsinjin on April 11, 2021, 11:25:42 AM
Empie, are you ok? This sounds kind on the abusive side of manipulation as in potentially physical. Stay safe.
Thoughts and prayers.
Jsj
Yes, I'm OK now. Thank you for you concern. :wave:
Since August 2019 I don' t live in our house.
Our relation was abusive, now I see it. There was no physical abuse, but mental, verbal and financial was more than enough.
In my post I wanted to illustrate that it' s quite common for them to take us for more than granted.
They need their living inventory always available.
Stay safe and strong!
Your posts are distressing, jsinjin. I hope you soon will find the courage to free yourself and your children from your wife's harmful behavior.
Empie2204 - I am so glad you are safe and ding better. Your post concerned me as well.
jsinjin - I agree with Poison Ivy - your posts are distressing and I hope you find a way to be free. Sending you hope and hugs
Oh Jsinjin, I'm so sorry to hear about this. Years ago I was told by my uNPDh's administrative assistant that she was his "work wife." It was a brief social trend about 2010. I was quite bothered by that and no I don't think there was a sexual relationship between them. I was bothered because as husband and wife, we should have a unique relationship of mutual trust and care, and she and he were equating my marriage to her work as an assistant. I've since realized that, in fact, he does see our marriage as transactional. As long as he was getting what he wanted from it in the form of some payment he was satisfied. He once told me that as I made less than he, I had to do all the housework and some yard work to make up for the deficiency. Evidently giving birth and mothering his children, caring for him when he was ill, and smiling and seeking to make his life warmer by my loving presence counted for less than what labor he could extract from me. It was a bitter realization. February 21, 2016, I decided to put my back to him. No more reaching for his hand, no more seeking to sit next to him, no more greeting him at the door with a welcoming smile, no more kisses and "I love you." I had always deliberately slept facing him and when after 32 years of marriage I slept facing away from him, he didn't notice. He didn't notice the no-smiling for a year until an adult daughter spent an hour with us and asked him about it, and he didn't mention greeting him at the door for another 2 1/2 years. The lack of kissing and hand-holding were, I think, noticed early last year, after 4 full years of their lack. About that time he began musing whether I'd be as well off financially if I'd married someone else. He didn't muse out loud if I'd be more or less happy, just how I might be financially. All those attempts to build an emotional bridge between us, to give and receive physical comfort, to make our home a safe place, all turned out to mean nothing to him. He does point out when he's nearly out of underwear and laundry needs to be done. He's keen on making sure I'm cooking often enough for him. I am requested to run errands for him (I always seem to get them wrong) or make phone calls for him (I always ask the wrong questions) or scan documents or replace printer ink or paper (that I evidently can do correctly) or be able to explain what this paper waved in front of my face meant (I fail every time on that one). He's realized that divorce means I'm taking 1/2 of our assets and future income with me so he's backed off of the financial inequity complaints but yes, his behavior says that he doesn't view me as his equal. I think that he's incapable of an genuine loving partnership. You wife sounds like she is the same. Something in them is off, some well of human attachment is dried up and stopped up and cannot refresh anyone including them. There have been periods in our marriage when he seemed attached to me but in the end he rampages across my pathetically few boundaries and he drains me of life and joy and it hurts and now I want to be done. I missed my best chance to leave 3 years ago and then the conditions changed. If I leave now, it will negatively affect our oldest daughter's finances (I watch her kids so her husband can work and we are in a financial deal helping them buy a new house) so I'm staying but I'm done pretending to feel a love that was casually and contemptuously rejected. I have my checklist to leave and I'd like to think that I'll depart then. Have you made a checklist for when you will leave with your therapist? You may already be there. You have mentioned friends and family who are ready to stand beside you. Maybe your time to go is now. Just don't miss it like I did and extend this unhappy part of your life. Extend mercy and grace to yourself as you would extend it to another in your situation. Good luck.
Not just with me. She also has a longtime friend who is the other servant until he got diagnosed with cancer. As I am on my way out, she will have to look for another live in servant....
They are cold.
Just as we don˙t know how does the life on some other planet in some other galaxy looks like, they know love just by word, lexically.
They see that something is wrong, but never consider the possibility of their mistakes. They are limited towards us, just as we are probably limited towards some faraway civilisation, That is why there are so many collisions between us.
Reading all your posts reveals that they all give us shivers in our everyday life. One way or the other.
But what can they offer verbally, sometimes exceeds all expectations.
I see that they all expect their partners to be capable and ready to serve them, but if the partner is a split second late or makes a tiny mistake - he/she is called an incompetent loser.
For those of us who left the abusive relationship, the first impulse to those who are still there is: Leave!
But with my experience I know that it is easier said than done.
No one leaves until the critical point is reached. For some it is sooner, later or never.
I tried to live detached, practising NC and grey rock and I didn´t achieve anything: neither his change, nor my peace. Whichever way you look, it is humiliating.
There is really truth in the old saying that everyone is assigned the burden he can bear. It only remains to recognize when it becomes impossible to bear.
On top of me, she had a friend who was the second servant until he got diagnosed with cancer recently. Now, she will have to find some new servants.
Two weeks and counting! Not one word to me that wasn't a request, a critique or a necessary discussion on kids or pets. If I don't pull the interaction out of her I don't exist. And it's been two week straight of nightly meetings for various civic activities. Typically from about 6-10. I don't think any of us matter.
That sounds incredibly sad and distressing.
And I know you know this, but just to validate: You're completely right about your lawn. In every way.