Out of the FOG

I have really reached breaking point, when you don't think she can go lower she does. Yesterday she shouted at me, told me I make her life miserable, told me to pack my bag, to get out of her country, call the estate agent and that she want a divorce. Today she is turning the kids against me, bribing them with that she is taking them to the Zoo and to stay away in a hotel. Telling them I am the nastiest dad in the world that is no coming with them, kids now turning on me how I can be so mean and not go away with them. I am supposed to just drop work, no notice, she doesn't work so no other income. I had already said I might be able to book something but needed to check with work, but she couldn't wait, she needed to set me up.

I honestly don't think I will survive much longer unless I get away. Hearing her false voice with her false words and lies just make my stomach turn. Sick of hearing her lying to the kids about me, obviously she has a knack with words so she always wins any argument - and why would the kids think their mum would lie to them? I know I will lose my kids if I stay, if I go I might have a chance. I am struggling to work, office is closed so doing all work from home with her around 24/7 harassing me, standing over me, in and out of my room, criticizing me, ridiculing me. I have left twice already this year, but been conned to come back. Only took days this time before she started the abuse again.

I don't know what to do. Help!

It sounds horrible, just awful. What an intolerable situation.

It sounds like you want to leave and she wants you to leave (except for the later hoover). What are the factors that are at play in your situation?

Your wife is saying that separation and divorce are ahead. Whatever else you decide to do, that statement means it is time to lawyer up and begin very careful documentation. You also need a trusted friend: someone with no chance at all of romantic attachment for you. That trusted friend can be your compass as you navigate this.

Write down your goals. Write down your values. Write down your fears.

The decisions ahead are all yours. We can't tell enough to know exactly what you should do, but an attorney, a friend, and good documentation will make you perform better on any path that lies ahead.

Be good. Be strong.

escaping man,

This is difficult, but I would be casual (even though you are very upset) with the children and calmly explain to them that you would like to have come but could not get off work, they'll be going on trip with their mother, and you will be there when they return, with love and hugs.  Don't blame or bash your wife, just be matter of fact about it.  Your children see her unhinged behavior (unfortunately), and will come to their own conclusions about mom.

Meanwhile, I would use the time when family is gone to decompress a bit and consult with an attorney.  Find out what your rights and options are.  I would also be recording these episodes (if it is allowable) so you can prove her instability.  Your children will need you to be a stable parent regardless of what happens, but especially if you divorce.

Thanks for your replies.

Now she is hell bent on me apologizing for setting her off yesterday, soon she will be begging me to come with on this trip. Kids are already guilt tripping me into it. I have no intention in sitting in a car with her, that is a disaster waiting to happen. Last time we did a long drive she attacked me whilst I was driving leaving bruises all over my arm.

As for recordings, I have been recording on and off for a year, I have been  writing down incidents as well, also took photos of my arm after said incident above. I have on recording when she is threatening to murder me, when she is shouting at the kids, I think even hitting them is on recording. My worry about using it is that she will step up her own accusations and with the way she can lie herself out of any trouble I am worried I will be the one ending up in trouble whatever I have.

I genuinely don't think she wants a divorce, she just want to hurt me as much as possible. That's a shame as I crave one.....

I understand your reluctance to go on the trip with all the crazymaking, it's a train wreck coming.  I'm not sure of the ages of your children but if they are pre-teen or older you could sit everyone down family meeting style and state your concerns about being on long car ride after the last episode.  Tell kids that if she insists on taking them that you cannot stop her, but that you do not want any drama, so you will plan to stay home.

Before I divorced, I had reached a breaking point in regards to yelling, screaming fits in the car on the way to church.  I told my H and the children that I would be taking a separate car so I could ride in peace, and they could chose who they wanted to ride with.  The kids chose me.......... it was :hulk:

I'm glad to hear you are documenting.  Make sure you don't give her anything to report on you about, do whatever you have to do to be self-controlled so she has nothing to use against you.  I would duplicate and secure the recordings, photos, etc.

Thanks for your input. Problem is that anything that has happened, she denies. Even this attack on me whilst driving, she says it was me attacking her. How stupid is that? Why would I attack a passenger in the car whilst driving? My kids are almost teens, SG can see a bit but GC worships the ground of her. If we went in two cars I can assure you she manipulate them both to go with her.

I am doing my best to stay calm and do medium chill but sometimes I lose it. I am not proud when ut happens but how can you stay calm for days or even weeks when someone is constantly poking you with a stick trying to provoke you?

I can't. I wouldn't go. It would be a nicer trip for everybody.

As for the parental alienation, you'll just have to stay calm and keep the long term in mind. Kids might think you're a bad father today but if you can stay calm and not get sucked into the war, at least the SG is likely to change how they see it as they mature over time.

Stay strong for the kids.

Quote from: square on May 24, 2021, 04:52:43 PM

As for the parental alienation, you'll just have to stay calm and keep the long term in mind.

This is such a good point. Stay relaxed and understand this is a long-term situation. You will not be able to make everything right at this moment, but you can stay true to yourself over time for those kids. Be very patient with them.

I think you have an opportunity here.  I am reading that you are ready for a divorce but worried about the outcome?  The way she can turn it on and turn it off - all makes you worried when you go to court.  But until you talk to a lawyer, you will never know your options.  You have documentation so when she is away, take it with you and make a plan.  Interview a couple of attorneys if that would help.  Take that week to plan.  Make copies of all the paperwork.  Do what you need to leave and take the time to do so

Tell the kids you can't get off work.  Calm your wife down and send her off in as good a manner as possible and then take every moment to create a better future for you and your children.

He used extreme physical intimidation on me.  I was gone in two days with kids in tow.  Only the clothes on our backs.  I have never regretted it.  I regret not doing it earlier.  Yeah, there are problems but I would not have survived.  Keep your kids and your future in mind as you plan your next steps.

I doubt she will actually go if I don't come with, she will blame me in some way and then stay at home and sulk. I suppose it all depends on what mood she is in when it comes to it. I find it extremely hard when she can go on for a full day just ranting about everything I do and complain about everything, telling the kids how useless I am and how selfish I am and so on, and then just like she turns a switch and suddenly she is in victim mode, trying to be nice and expects me do forget it all and do whatever to please her. I just can't do it anymore, the damage for the kids to listen at all her complaints, I dread to think, but how do you protect them when she just doesn't get it and doesn't stop? When you get her to assassinate my character for hours on end, just because I bought the wrong cheese? I don't think anyone would believe me if I told the stories, I am so used to them so I even think it's kind of normal now.

I have tried to read up on all the laws surrounding divorce here, at the moment there is no other way than to file a petition and blame it on her. That won't go down well as she is blind to her faults. However, there might be a change in law later this year with no fault divorce. It would be much easier if I could just say I fallen out of love with her and that's it, no court battles (if she tries to defend herself). It seems pretty straight forward with assets almost always gets divided 50/50, but my concern is the children. If I p*ss her off she do anything to stop me from seeing them, she would come up with any lie. I have found a family solicitor that says they have specialists in divorces including NDP people, I am planning to contact them when I am ready. Just so worried she will find out in one way or another, would be my luck someone she knows works there.

I have lost my temper several times, not much lately since I got out of the worst fog, but before I didn't have a clue and I must have had bad fleas. We were fighting every day, I tried everything to please her and to get out of the bad books. Looking back at it I wonder how I could be so stupid. Why did I try so hard with someone only interested in themselves?  I can see my life how it should be, I am desperate to get there. I am excited about the prospect of being able to make my own decisions without having to defend them or having them shot down, just imagine painting a wall brown just because I can....

Thanks for all your advice, finding this forum was so valuable for me. I found it in the right time after first reading all about narcissism, then all about narcissistic victims, trauma bond, PTSD and the rest. Now I have all the information, just need to use it wisely and with your help I might actually be able to make myself free.

Really tired of this, trying my best to keep the peace for the kids - but everything I do or say that is not to her satisfaction is met with a complaint under her breath. She asks if I have any meeting planned for today, and I answer yes I have and tell her the time, she immediately complains as she wanted a lift to an appointment exact that time and makes out as if I planned to have the meeting just to not have to take her. Then having lunch with her and the kids, she asks me a question about something really trivial, I answer but she thinks I am wrong, I say I am not sure but I thought it was the answer I gave and she just slaps her own hand as she always do and says "silly me". How do you actually manage to get along with someone that only finds faults and feel so sorry for herself for the smallest little thing? I don't think it is even possible to do this short term for the kids, I need out and quick. Will probably try keep it together as long as they are off school, but then I have to go. It's like being married to a two year old.

You can't really get along but the key is to stop caring.

To take her pronouncements as seriously as you would some crazy person on the street yelling something at you.

She has a problem with you having a meeting when she wanted a lift? Lol, whatever. I use MC all the time but when my H is really laying into me I might finally say something like, "yup, my tarot cards told me last week you'd need a lift, so I started my plot right then." Said with the same pleasant expression and tone as my general MC. Yeah, I'm a jerk. It helps me keep an even keel. Usually he will squawk something, storm off, then return long enough to say "I think you ARE plotting against me" and storm off again.

That may not work for you but it's just an example of keeping calm. For me, the mild amusement keeps me calm, and frustrates but does not really escalate H. (Ignoring him is the thing that escalates him so that is not an option for me). It might escalate things for you but maybe you can find some way to emotionally disengage and become unperturbed by it.

Above all, remember: it's the rantings of a crazy person, nothing more. And physically leave the situation if needed.

I did stop caring, I don't really care what she says - but when it is done in front of the kids and she tries to make out every little thing I do is designed to be selfish and mean. If I say nothing I lose as they believe her, if I say something I lose as she will start a fight that I can't win.

You're not going to win (with the kids) in the moment. You win in the long term by being stable, calm, boundaried dad. Keep your integrity.

And you DO win in the moment by keeping your integrity because YOU know you kept it together.

She does this because it works on you. There really is something about the inner mindset, though. She is trying to dictate reality: this is what happened (a terrible injustice rather than a minor disappointment) and this is why (because your father is a horrible person out to ruin our lives rather than I failed to properly communicate and plan).

You feel defensive because she is dictating that false reality to the kids.

You can't win at her game. You can't shout louder that it was her fault and not yours. Well, you can, but you won't win.

But you can win at the long game. The kids may be confused but they will note that dad stayed calm and kept it together while mom lost it. It may take years and years to understand but they notice.

The kids will also appreciate if you check in with them and make sure they are okay. Don't make it about you, just them.

Thanks for your very good post square.

I have done some reflection and although I know I need out, I need to play the game short term. She is about to lose it completely, and she is upsetting the kids, especially SG, but I will stay calm and let her ruin it for herself. If I don't fight back, and don't pander to her she will not know what to do. It's all about me managing to control myself, If I can do that I will win. I decided to take some time off work and to do things with all of them, for the sake of the kids, but also for me, not for her. If she looses it when we are out, its her loss, as long as I can keep cool and ignore it, not my problem. I am having an amazing relation with my kids, when she is not with us, I am not going to let her ruin that.

What I don't understand is the "advice" to quickly rush to divorce. What about a legal separation, which would include protecting finances and seeing your own children without them being pawns. We tend to think of only our own happiness at times and sometimes are convinced the children are better off... I don't know if that is true....

Before people pile on me in disagreement... you have time. You can go slow and be careful. You can look at options for yourself and your children. You are not bound to act immediately. In fact acting in a state of chaos  can have consequences you do not wish to happen.

You have children, do you want to leave them too? In the state she seems to be in, perhaps the kids will suffer in more ways. I believe we are attracted to people because of their decency not personality problems. You were not wrong for choosing her, and will not be wrong if you figure a way to work this out.

Perhaps a good therapist, minister, close friend can give you some perspective. This site is full of information. You will find much support to throw in the towel and just leave, but that is a life changing decision for you and your children.

Because our  lives have become so small during the pandemic, the worst has come out of many people who could normally cope better. Lets not forget the idea of forgiveness and understanding. I am not saying what is wrong is right, but... we all can be out of line when the pressure is on. IMO when we have children, it is not just about us anymore. The kids will be greatly affected too. One thing we all have to use to our own advantage is time.
I feel some of the suggestions you have been given are adversarial. How helpful is that to you to ruminate and write down the faults of the mother of your children? Maybe she has a list of her own about you.

Divorce? If that is your final answer... then get out at all cost and don't make it bitter. You will lose your self esteem and the respect of your kids. Really think about options, there is more than one right answer.

Quote from: tragedy or hope on May 26, 2021, 08:09:39 AM
What I don't understand is the "advice" to quickly rush to divorce. What about a legal separation, which would include protecting finances and seeing your own children without them being pawns. We tend to think of only our own happiness at times and sometimes are convinced the children are better off... I don't know if that is true....

Hello 'tragedy and hope', while I agree with you on considering separation before divorce, in my opinion, separation is a really just a stepping stone towards divorce.  I am also in the opinion that when one has 'suffered' for so many years and have forgiven the partner with PD may times, there are no other options but to get out to get your sanity back.

To Tragedy or Hope: Are you really staying I should sacriface my own happines and sanity to allowed for her abuse to continue? We can't even sit down for lunch without her starting shouting at one of us for apparently trying to make her snap. And when she snaps it's our fault because she was made to lose it. No, I don't think so. I have tried everything for almost 20 years and nothing, and I mean nothing helps. She cannot stop herself from losing her temper. Why can't she stop? Because she doesn't want to.

I agree in part with the idea that divorce is not always toe best first step.  But in many cases it is.

In some situations, and they all vary, and in some states depending on the laws, the children might at times be better served with a separation.

If a sitution is not one the courts would recognize as dangerous to the kids still being married can allow the healthy parent to stay in charge of more of what goes on with the kids.

A legal separation in some cases will require a costody arrangement in court depends again on the state.  Being marrried still yet living separately can work in some situations to give more control while letting things play out with the pd. Ie it can allow them to sink to bottom and finally seek help , decide they want out without taking the kids or to self destruct with iht taking the kids and partner down with them.

I considered this.  Being divorced would have meant my kids would have been with pdh unsupervised half of the time and he would not have taken his meds if not married etc.

I elected to stay married to protect my kids.  Eventually we got past that part of things and we now have new challenges.  They are almost grown now, and my prison term is almost over in many regards.

I could have had a side relationship if I had wanted, but I was not going to turn my kids over to insanity and abuse.  Having a separate pad and getting regular intimacy would not have. Right happiness if my kids were the price. 

Must say that the more I think of your post Tragedy or Hope I wonder if you actually know how it is to live like this? I have been battling this for almost 20 years and finally started to get a grip,  and you tell me I should accept the abuse?  Today she has been bullying SG again, I have stood up for SG and got it in the neck. Shall I just let her scream and shout qt my children? Because she has had a hard time? SG came to me tonight cuddling me so hard whispering in my ear how much she loves me,  I told her as always I love her too and she asks me why her mum doesn't love her. What do I do? I lie of course, again, telling her that her mum loves her but she is stressed. For how much longer shall I do this? Or shall we all just accept that she us a bit stressed all the time?

I am going to extend some grace and believe that Tragedy or Hope is in this section of the forum - chosen relationships - and sees posts that appear to advocate divorce as inappropriate.  I agree that no one should rush to divorce and forgive us if it appears that way.  In some ways, I look at my 32-year marriage as successful because I stayed married for 32 years.  But the psychological and physical damage done to myself and my children - I will never regain that.  Decades of stress have taken a physical toll and will definitely shorten my life - stage IV cancer, fibro, and PTSD. I am a walking miracle that I am alive.  And the stress of daily tirades, gaslighting, physical intimidation all took a toll.  Not to mention the lasting trauma that my children are dealing with.  No, divorce was the best option.

escapingman, you are in a tough spot and I am sending you hope, peace, and wisdom.

Anyone here on this forum deserves grace - whether we agree or not.

 :yeahthat:

And much love and healing to you and your children Just keep trying.

I hope you find a way forward to peace for you and your kids soon.

Each of us must live with the decisions we make for ourselves and our children. Anger is a very powerful emotion. It sometimes can jetizen us into decisions we regret. Peaceful decisions are made with consciousness of consequences.

I have learned that often anger is closely tied to deep down fear... of not being loved, accepted, desired, exposure of feelings that are not reciprocated etc. Violations of personal boundaries that I am not able to handle also make me angry sometimes because I sincerely don't know how to handle them.

I am grateful for the tools and people on this site who have walked before me. Time is always on my side. It is my life and I make my own decisions. I hope I give that freedom to anyone who reads my posts.

Tragedy or Hope: Sure I agree that decisions should be taken in peace, but it is not my decision to not have peace at home. For me the decision is for pure survival, the absolute worst is when things are good and I start thinking this might actually work, she has changed, then she erupt into another rage. I cannot stop these eruptions, I can try to to calm them and make them less frequent, but I can never stop it. I can see when they are coming, I know her cycle way to well. Right now she is OK'ish with me as she is trying to get back in the good books after her last outburst. I know, as soon as I "forget" and start acting normal with her, the next outburst get closer by the minute. When I am nice to her, she uses that fuel to get stronger and the stronger she gets the closer to eruption. If I am cold to her, she behaves like a victim, she then do anything she can to turn me round, mostly be being mean, triangulating the kids against me.

I have 2 options, 1 leave her and survive or 2 stay and probably go to an early grave. I don't want to risk number 2 so I will have to do number 1. The anger is not mine but hers.

escapingman,

I solidly support your decision to leave.

I also support TorH's decision to stay. But that's her life and her choice, not yours.

I can understand your frustration. Just as I would respect someone's choice and not counsel them otherwise in the Committed section, I think choices to leave should also be respected.

You're okay. It was just someone's perspective and you can dismiss it. When you're already struggling, it can be difficult to feel congruent. You would like consistent messages in this place of support especially given the vortex you are spinning around in at home. But it's okay, you're thinking clearly and making your own choices, you are your own man and not everyone has to agree in order for your choices to be right.

 :yeahthat:

Quote from: square on May 28, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
You're okay. It was just someone's perspective and you can dismiss it. When you're already struggling, it can be difficult to feel congruent. You would like consistent messages in this place of support especially given the vortex you are spinning around in at home. But it's okay, you're thinking clearly and making your own choices, you are your own man and not everyone has to agree in order for your choices to be right.

Spot on.

Tragedy or Hope has presented and politely explained an alternate viewpoint. That's totally fair game. And escapingman, based on his experience, sees that viewpoint as a shocking non-starter. As an economics professor always told me, it is a difference of opinion that makes a horse race.

escapingman, it doesn't sound to me like you are rushing anything at all. You are at a hard point and have no good options ahead of you. But I sincerely believe you will be in a far better place three years from now than where you are today. That was a long horizon for good reason. Steel yourself: this will be hard. But you are going to make it through, and you are going to do your level best for your kids along the way. Be ever so good. Be ever so strong.

Quote from: escapingman on May 28, 2021, 10:38:22 AM

I have 2 options, 1 leave her and survive or 2 stay and probably go to an early grave. I don't want to risk number 2 so I will have to do number 1. The anger is not mine but hers.

Hi Escapingman, I like your simple but to the point synopsis.  I am exactly in the same situation as yours and I choose to save myself and the kids as I can never change my uNPDw (I tried for 30 years and I have served my time plus more)

May I suggest that this thread be moved to separated/divorcing? 

Tragedy or Hope - I see your point and as stated before everyone here deserves grace.  The only caution I urge is to frame future posts with a little more sensitivity.  Other than that, yes, no one should approach the vow of marriage - a holy sacrament - with caution and patience. 

In this instance though, perhaps not.  God bless escapingman, you are not in a good situation but you appear to have a handle on what you need to do.  Hugs to you and your family. 

EM, I have no wisdom, only compassion for what you're facing and maybe a little flipside insight for you. My parents divorced when I was 9-10 - looking back I know it should have happened before and I truly don't know how he did it. I think Daddy stayed with her thinking it would improve. That she'd settle down or grow up maybe. I don't know. He's been gone many years now, but to the end he said he'd always loved her, didn't understand her - but ultimately wanted the best for us.

Do what you need to do where the marriage is concerned, and keep a safe loving space for and with your children. Be there with them whenever and however you can, refuse to be cut out of their lives. Never let them doubt you love them. It matters more than you may think.

Whatever her efforts, her foul and harsh words, they need to hear yours. Looking back, I don't remember Daddy ever saying a word against mother - yet she spent our lives degrading and sneering at him as she had everyone else. Her character came shining through, but in a whole other way.

We're here with you, and your children.

Thank you all for your wonderful messages!

I am not sure, maybe naive, but I might be getting somewhere. Not with my wife, but with my children.... She changed the dates to do the trip last week, I decided to go with. Not for her bur for the kids, I get an enormous reward from the kids. I decided to ignore every tantrum she had, and to put up boundaries. I drove, we had not even driven a mile when she made the first complaint about my driving, I calmly told her that she either shut up or else I will park the car next time. She didn't say a word about my driving for the rest of the journey. At the Zoo we had a great time, she had her twitches but I ignored them, and so did the kids. She kept felling hard done by during the evening, but I ignored all of that and so did the kids, it was an amazing time for me. Today at home I have taken the kids to the park, wife stayed at home complaining, at home she shouted at the kids and they start to show signs of disapproval of her. Then went to the supermarket with one of them and bought food to make a big meal, the other one was with my wife and was told during this time that I can't cook... Anyway, we ate and both kids gave the meal 10 out of 10, wife ate her own stuff as normal. Afterwards we went out in the garden to play some football and enjoy the rare sunshine, she didnt join us and then slammed doors and complained about how mean we were. I have just taken the kids to bed and cuddled them, she has locked herself into our guest bedroom. I need to keep this going, today has been a great day.

Thank you all again.

She reached a new low today, this time I really don't think I can ignore it anymore. Can't write the whole story as you all would know anyway, but ended up in a restaurant and she was desperate to kick off. She made complaint after complaint until we got the entire meal for free in the end, I just wanted to sink through the ground - and so did my youngest who us only 11. My youngest even asked me afterwards if we could go back and apologise to the waitress.....

The most difficult bit to deal with is when she has set one of the kids (almost always the golden child) against me. She starts this with back chatting me to GC, letting GC feel special and to be in "her" zone. Then GC takes it upon herself to be nasty to me to please my uNPDw. GC tells me something mean, and looks for her mum for validation, I just don't know how to handle this. I feel discussed with my child, but I know it's not her fault as she has been brainwashed. Yesterday I had some good news for the kids about something we would do next week, I then said you will be hungry after this so we could pick up a pizza on the way home (this has been their favorite food for as long as I can remember), GC starts shouting at me telling me she doesn't like pizza and immediately looks for validation from her mum. I calmly tell her it was just a suggestion and she keeps shouting at me looking for validation at the same time. Then she reveals she wants a sandwich from starbucks (do I need to say that uNPDw had raved about how much she loves starbucks the last days?), then keep shouting at me how stupid I am for thinking starbucks is only for drinks and that they have the best sandwhiches (GC has never been and only heard her mum telling her). In the end GC ended up with her mum on the sofa watching adult TV with me and SG left out (we stayed away as well). Today uNPDw is wondering why I am cold towards her and what she has done. The scary thing is that I don't think she has a clue what she is doing, but I really have had it with her keep telling GC about all my faults (that she makes up). I think GC needs therapy, but no way I can get her to that whilst still in the same house as he mother.

I have put it off for too long, but I need to pick up the courage and contact a lawyer and get this nightmare to end.

Hi Breaking Point, from a distance, it sounds like your situation is getting worse.  Yes, seek some legal advice and plan your exit.  I am actually starting to contact lawyers myself.  And find away to not be under the same roof if you can.

I want to offer a tiny tad of hope while you're exiting this terror.
Your child is young teen/preteen? Still clearly in the home. Often when these children are either left alone with the PD parent, OR they get out of the home on their own, with some age on them, they begin to see the disordered behavior for what it is. The best thing you can do is stay strong for the kids, and keep offering them stable, kind, dadly behavior, as you have been. Your GC may see the light in time. Therapy, if possible, is a great idea for ALL of you. You have ALL been hurt.

I seem to have struck a nerve here.
Whatever... maybe a re read would be helpful.  Not everyone agrees with leaving, divorcing... some people stay. I feel the issue I need to look at will be me, not the one who is my focus.

I have learned that others can handle things I cannot and vice versa.

Insensitivity can appear to be speaking simple truth in this upside down world. Truth be told, there are many choices to life issues. Each resulting in consequences we must live with in the end.
I have... only suggestions based on wisdom, not emotion.

Good luck.  I wish you the best.

p.s. ...agreed, perhaps separating and divorce would be a better topic area.

Yes. This belongs in the Separating Forum.  But when I think about 'Chosen Relationships', I am sure for most of us who are in this Section didn't really 'chose' to be with a PD... The PD chose us !!!

Maybe it is belonging in the separation forum, but I am not there yet and although I keep saying it I am just not sure I will manage that step. I feel like I need her permission to end it, its sick I know. It makes it extra hard when she is "normal" and my brain plays up telling me it will all be OK, must be so worn down by it to still trying to justify her bad behavior. Anyway, I will keep moving in the right direction and hopefully one day I will create a post in the separating forum.

My sister (who was in an abusive marriage with an alcoholic) told me that it will end when I decide that I have had enough (and she will have no choice).  The only thing that has to be done is to negotiate the split and custody.  That was a really good advice that I hold dearly.

I think she has lost it completely, the frequency of the cycles, the level of abuse, the complete victimization and the absolute lack of understanding what she is doing. Right now she is "normal", she has bought some wood for a project in the garden, it is a small project that will require a builder to help for a couple of hours, she has behaved like we are building a new house. No joke, but this has been going on for 2 months and now she finally bought the wood and arranged for a builder. At the moment this builder is the best builder in the world, so is every worker she employs, they are the best. But I know that when the job is finished, she will find a problem with it, she will either call him back to correct it or more likely blame me for it and then slag this builder off for the rest of the days. This morning she lost it completely with SG, SG was struggling with some tablets as scared of swallowing, not acceptable and the more SG struggled to more she shouted at SG. Yes I was frustrated too, but more like "just take the bl**dy tablets so your mum shuts up". In the middle of this SG knocked a glass of juice all over the table, floor and chair. An enormous tantrum followed and how dare SG spill juice on her expensive chair. Then when I try to calm the situation and say "it's just a chair, please don't shout at SG" I got shouted at for siding with SG and how dare I not back her up. Some more shouting before she eventually took them to school, but now she is happy as ever as she has bought some wood.

Soon it's lunch, I will eat fish, I will most likely get complains about how much it stinks. That I chew the cracker bread to loudly. Then she will do her puzzle book whilst eating, I am supposed to just sit there and watch her being ready for any conversation she might start. If I look disinterested she moans, if I leave the table before she is finished she moans. She literally sits having her lunch, doing her puzzle book for 1-1.5 hours and I am supposed to sit and watch her. I don't, I won't and it makes me very stressed as I know she will moan as soon as I leave the table and go back to work. She keeps asking me if I have meetings, what I have on work wise, not because she is interested but so she can keep a tab on me and if I say I am not that busy with work she would come up with a job I need to complete for her. I always need to pretend to be busy, because since she is busy all the time it would not be fair if I wasn't busy.

Sorry for ranting on but I need to write this crap down for my own sake. 

I would address the child's rudeness with the child.

Perhaps tell them it's fine to have a suggestion about where and what to eat after the activity, but that they need to present it politely without rudeness.  If not there will not be any activities until they can be trusted to behave toward you in public.

Then let them know it hurts your feelings to be treated more rudely than a stranger, and you wonder why you are being treated that way. 

Letting my kids know my feelings were hurt in such ways helped them see it was not just a silly game.

It has to be soul crushing to see your wife doing this to this extent.  I am sorry.

Manipulation of children this way is a super lowlife pd action. 

I have a friend who has twins as her youngest two and her narc phychopath ex picked one of the twins as a favorite from birth and played such games.  The side effects still exist even now.  This child demands the mothers attention more than the other three all put together. 

We have pondered whether the N shaped the child this much in such a short time or if he identified her as being a fellow N from birth.  Either way over time things improve with all her kids as they grow up and interact with other kids, school, etc.

We got the delivery of the wood, she immediately inspects it all into the finest detail and...... surprise surprise it's not good enough, so now she is on talks with the company to have it replaced. It just never ends, nothing is ever good enough and there is always more drama. Yesterday she came back home from the gym, in a state, furious, she had had a running with the women leading the class. Apparently she was told off for not following the routine, I have hard to believe this and I am so used to her taking offence for the smallest thing. Apparently she ended up in a row in front of all other people in the class and ended up going to the reception asking for the manager and made a complaint. Now she is going to switch to another gym, unless they apologize of course. Before I was Out of the FOG I would have believed her, maybe even got down to the gym myself and ask what the heck was going on. But I have learnt to stay out of her drama, she is a grown up and she can deal with that. SG then had a complete meltdown about some school work, she can not control her anger when something goes completely wrong, this is very hard as I must both reprimand her for her behavior (she was very mean to her sister) and try to calm her down and at the same time manage with my wife shouting in the background as no one is allowed to have tantrums but her.

I am continuing trying to detaching me from the drama, and focusing on being there for the kids. Today is another day and let's see what drama she can come up with.

I should have seen that one coming, let my guard down a bit and there bang it comes. Working from home, went in to the kitchen and decided to wash up. She comes in to me after I finished and wants a detailed explanation of why I washed up just before she got downstairs from her shower. I didn't have a good answer as I just did it, I am sure most of us just get on with jobs without any real thought for why. But no, I needed to explain why as she thought I washed it up because she hadn't and therefor I did it because I was annoyed with her and I was trying to teach her a lesson. F*ck me, all I did was wash up dirty dishes. Ended up with her shouting at me slamming the door telling me off for something I have planned next week. I need to stop fooling myself that I can handle her because I can't.

Quote from: escapingman on June 10, 2021, 04:26:27 AM
I should have seen that one coming, let my guard down a bit and there bang it comes. Working from home, went in to the kitchen and decided to wash up. She comes in to me after I finished and wants a detailed explanation of why I washed up just before she got downstairs from her shower. I didn't have a good answer as I just did it, I am sure most of us just get on with jobs without any real thought for why. But no, I needed to explain why as she thought I washed it up because she hadn't and therefor I did it because I was annoyed with her and I was trying to teach her a lesson. F*ck me, all I did was wash up dirty dishes. Ended up with her shouting at me slamming the door telling me off for something I have planned next week. I need to stop fooling myself that I can handle her because I can't.

Hello Escapingman,

I have been following this thread since it began, but not commenting.  I am very sorry you are experiencing the PD drama from your wife.  Your experiences remind me of my own prior to learning the very difficult tools in the toolbox of MC, noJADE, 51% rule and 50% rule.   In my opinion, those 4 tools, allow you to begin to mentally distance/detach yourself from her drama.  I also believe that your children are greatly affected by both parents being in the PD cycle drama.   What I mean by that comment is that when your PDw is causing drama, your focus becomes on the drama, and it's natural for that to be the case.  Instead I desire for you to be able to always be emotionally detached from the drama, for the sake of your children.  The children will learn from your calmness and lack-of-reaction to your PDw's drama. 

I understand you may choose to depart your marriage, but I would caution you that leaving your 2 children with a PD, without your calm, stable trusting presence, is very hard on these minor children, whose adult rights are not yet fully granted.  I don't know where you reside in the world, so assuming that at age 18 your children will gain full adult legal rights. 

Mastering and deploying those 4 tools/rules listed above will allow you to not be involved in your wife's activities that create so much of the drama, but please understand that they also create an emotional environment between you two, of simply a roommate, not a spouse.  If you choose to be a spouse emotionally, she will probably drag you into the drama.  If you choose to be a calm roommate, it will be a a bit of a weird combo of mentally alone while another adult carries on in your home. 

Many of the stories you have shared are about her own activities and rants regarding them, in which you hear about.  But many do not actually include you, for example your story regarding the gym drama.  Think about a time when you may have had an actual roommate, and if that roommate had drama at the gym.  They may come home and rant about it, but you probably would not be emotionally involved, and the actions of your roommate would not concern you regarding your own reputation outside the home.  In my opinion, your spouses emotional behavior outside the home, should be of zero concern for you, unless it also involves your children, as your children are defenseless as minors and may need your emotional support.  But for example, I could care less what my wife does/says at the gym and if she came home and told me that drama, my roommate-response would be a MC "I'm sorry that happened to you today" and I would carry on with what I'm doing. Again, I know at this time, you feel trapped in the home, but many of us are/have been in similar situations, and I want to encourage you to enhance your efforts and practice of MC, noJADE, 51% rule, and the 50% rule (to keep you balanced in understanding).   You can do this and imo, need to do this. 

Lastly, you mentioned the word cycles, and indeed most PD's work through the IDD cycle over a period of time.  That cycle length may be short or long.  For example it may be a 1 month complete cycle or multiple years.  My PDfather cycles quickly and my PDwife cycles about every 2.5-3 years.  IDD (short acronym to remember) is Idealization (lovebombing), Devaluation (extremely and vocally critical) and lastly Discard (extreme silent treatment and other purposeful ignoring-you actions/reactions.  The purpose of the cycle is to keep the target off balance, keep the focus on the target (not the PD) and to keep you cycling, which perpetuates it's repetitiveness.  It is helpful for you to identify which part of the cycle you are on, so you will not get sucked into the actions/reactions the PD desires.  If you remain a  MC, noJADE roommate constantly, the PD's cycle becomes ineffective on you therefore ineffective FOR them as well.  It's actually very interesting to be able to understand and witness this occur, once you are able to effectively use the tools at all times. I encourage you to mentally think through past drama events and practice the toolbox responses/non-responses in your mind.  This mental practice helps you in real situations and sharpens your skills and timing in deploying them correctly.   Practice (mind scenarios and real event) sharpens the skills over time and eventually it will become 2nd nature to you. 

In encouragement always,

SoT

SofT,

Your post is the most concise and best explanation of using the tools that I have read on this forum.

Thank you

JustKeepTrying

Thanks Son Of Thunder. I have been doing this for some time now, not always perfect but trying all those 4 tactics. I think my lack of engaging in her drama has thrown her cycles and at the moment they makes no sense and she can go from love bombing to devaluation back to love bombing in a couple of hours. I really struggle to keep up. The room mate thing is correct, that's what so try to do, but it is very difficult when she tries to force me to be affectionate towards her as its just turn my stomach, its always me that needs to give her affection but she ain't giving it back. I will try to write more on this topic but short of time right now.

Thanks for all replies. They help.

Again, she reach a new low.... I think SG just have had enough of her abuse, and she is strong and standing up for herself. They ended up in an argument because SG tried to get away from washing her hair, my response was to talk SG into washing her hair and stayed calm whilst she had a tantrum. My wife decided it was such an insult on her that she stormed out the house and drove off, she has been away for an hour now. SG told me how wonderful this is as it is so peaceful, I think the same..... GC is trying to contact her behind my back, think I am more worried about her.

This morning she kept her arguments from yesterday acting like a 2 year old. Demanding an apology from SG for yesterday, loudly walking around in the house moaning about she can't take more of the abuse (she really think she is the one who is abused). Then GC puts up a strop saying she don't want to wear the tie that goes with the school uniform, wife then says she doesn't need to wear it as she is top of the class and therefor can do as she wants. This is where I get seriously hacked off, what message is that sending to the child? Her mum says she can ignore the school regulations? I am not 100% agreeing with the school uniforms, but if there are rules they should be followed, they should certainly not be dismissed just because NPD mother tells her to. During this debacle she kept complaining about SG and at the same time praising GC pitting them against each other. I need to find out if I have any chance of getting full custody, I am really worried what she would do if she had them both for any length of time.

I can't give you any legal advice as I am neither a lawyer or even have any experience in going through a divorce but can give you my two cents based on what I am going through.  I am in a similar situation.  My first reaction was full custody but when I thought about it harder, joint custody is fine because my stdbxw with uNPD is part of the kids life and they will decide for themselves whether to get involved or not with her in the future (I will only intervene if their wellbeing and safety is in line).  In my case, judging from her past behavior, I bet you joint custody will become de facto sole custody for me over time.  I wouldn't think about it too much if I were you.  Just concentrate on how to separate yourself (physically) from her so that you can think clearly.  Of course you need to make sure that your kids are OK.

I stayed with my UNPD until the bitter end because I didn't want him to turn the kids into NPDs or turn them against me.

When they were little they used to ask me why I made him mad all the time and beg me not to.

When they became teenagers they saw with their own eyes what was really going on.

All I had to do is remain calm and be the sane one(sometimes a major feat-haha)

He tried very hard to buy them off like he did his own daughter from a previous marriage but they were too smart to fall for it.

My kids are grown now and the oldest has moved out and is doing well.  UNPDH recently passed away but in spite of it all he did provide for me financially.  Maybe I will get a few years of peace with my children before I go.

It's a hard road, isn't it?

I have always thought we would have the kids 50/50 but I am really worried now. She has really lost it lately, and she can't see it. SG would come with me if she had a choice,  I am not even sure she would want to see her mum as things are now. GC is a bit different but she is a happy girl when we are together without her mum (which rarely happens). I am not in a rush as I need to get this right, but I can't stay forever throwing my own life away.

You getting full or primary custody, as great as that would be, may indeed be difficult.

If 50-50 is the likely scenario, then imagine what you can offer. A peaceful home on your days. A break.

Will that be better than current?

I got demands/requests for affaction while my odh was at his worst.  I finally told him I was not feeling it and just could not be cuddly after I had been mistreated.  I offered that a sincere apology could help.

He marched off and has never asked again.  And I am talking about non sexual affection as he had quit with sex years earlier.  Strange man.

Roommate for many years and. Now legal guardian.  I am like legally a parental figure. I think I need a boyfriend, LOL.

Since I started using all the techniques such as MC, GR, 50% and 51% it all just becomes so clear. She really follows a template, predictable actions and almost identical to all stories I read here.

On Saturday I left for an appointment, having done MC and GR which she thinks is me giving her the silent treatment, got a text where she is asking me to be civil to her and why I am not speaking to her after SG's outburst on Thursday. I replied calmly that she needs to look at herself and her own behavior and if she can change that I will do my best. Her reply was as expected, she has no clue what she has done and blames it all on the 11 year old child. Here is where she wants to get into a circular argument where I tell her everything she done wrong, she denies it all and turns it on to me and the kids, she NEVER do anything wrong. So when I came home she immediately confronted me wanting to know what she has done wrong (apparently shouting at an 11 year old who wanted help with something and then storming out the house leaving the children distressed for an hour is normal behavior), I refused and walked out in the garden with a beer. She follows me and keeps badgering me about what she possible can have done wrong, in the end she wipes it all out of her head and pretend its all good again and demands my affection and interest in her projects. As I am still disgusted with her behavior I still can't look at her without feeling my stomach turning, so she keeps pointing out why I can't look at her and instead of trying to be sorry and actually change a bit and be nice, she keeps pushing and pushing.

This follows up on Sunday, she started back chatting me under her breath (this is something I am struggling with as she is trying to paint me black to the kids) and I snapped and told her to stop. She immediately started screaming at me and in the end coming close to me pointing her fingers close to my face shouting "I am warning you, if you are not nice to me I will leave the house so you can't go on your trip you have booked next week". Yes, I have a couple of days away booked (to recover from her abuse) and every time I have something that would rely on her she will use it as a threat. So I replied to her "I am warning you, that if you leave then I will give you your divorce", I know not the most mature reply but I really have had enough. She then shouts at me how dare I warn her  :stars: ..... Then a long argument follows where she demands me to give her a cuddle and to look at her, I just couldn't, I am so past it, I feel my stomach turns when I look at her and all her evil nastiness.

When I cuddled SG when she went to bed and told her about me going away for a couple of days she went really sad and told me that she expects mum to be nasty to her when I am away. She then told me what happened at home during Saturday when I left for my appointment before my wife texted me. Apparently she threw her phone across the room, broke down crying on the floor because I was so mean to her and then she kicked off blaming it all on SG.

Is it really possible to be so blind for your own behavior and to be so self centered without knowing it? Or does she know it but just don't care? She is now talking about us going on a weekend trip without the kids and how she wants to move and start all over somewhere else. She even talks about having more kids even though we haven't even slept in the same bed for years.

Escaping man,

The only encouragement I can provide, is for you to study and practice the toolbox.  MC and noJADE are very difficult to master but worth doing well.

Your last post has incidents where those two tools would have benefitted well to protect you.  The tools don't create change in the PD, but in the intensity and duration of the drama.  In addition, learning how to properly create boundaries to protect yourself (not try to dictate your PDw's actions/reactions) are necessary as well.  This is very challenging work, and all while in the the middle of turmoil.  Imo, if you are unwilling to master them and deploy them every/all the time, to protect yourself and create a more calm home for your children, then what you faced in your last post, will be your (and your kids) reality.   

You are not alone.  So many of us here are on the same path and some farther along and some behind as well.  We all though, are carrying the same toolbox.   Your last post contained JADEing and noMC, as your PDwife skillfully confronted you to JADE by asking you questions (bait). 

You wrote: (parentheses are my inserts)

"I  replied (JADE) calmly that she needs (you can only control yourself, than this is not a boundary on yourself) to look at herself and her own behavior and if she can change that I will do my best.  Her reply was as expected, she has no clue what she has done and blames it all on the 11 year old child. Here is where she wants to get into a circular argument where I tell her everything she done wrong (baiting you to JADE), she denies it all and turns it on to me and the kids, she NEVER do anything wrong." 

Then  you 'snapped' (your word for JADE) and told her to stop (not a boundary as you can only control yourself).  All of this is not MC=Medium chill as well.  So again, I refer you to the Out of the FOG toolbox you have in your possession.

SoT

Thanks for your reply SoT. I am doing OK with the toolbox but I do still fail, a couple of years ago I would have taken every bait but now I would say I am at least down to 1 out if 10. I still need to be better, but what if I can't?  She just had another discussion with me about how much she loves me and why I am so cold to her, again tried to explain I am struggling as long as she keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up. She is so convincing I almost believe her, but I know all it is is her cycle. In a day, or two or maybe a week she will have another breakdown and I (or one if the kids) will be painted black and she will become the devil.

Thought I'd make a quick post.
There are many people here with a much more similar experience to you than I have, and are giving great advice, and I've just been following along.
But when I read this in your last post...

Quote from: escapingman on June 14, 2021, 07:11:06 AM
....again tried to explain I am struggling as long as she keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up. She is so convincing I almost believe her....

...it occurred to me that maybe you should try ABR ( Always Be Recording).
If she denies doing these things, it's the next logical step.
It could be that she genuinely doesn't remember saying/doing these things (Borderline Amnesia), or she could simply be playing you by gaslighting you.

Either way, maybe it's time she heard herself.
I'm sure there would be fallout for the fact that you recorded her, but you could tell her that you had no choice because she wouldn't believe you, although rational reasoning like that probably wouldn't make any difference.

Just a thought.

Thanks Simon, great advice. However, I have been recording her on and off for more than 6 months. I have got her shouting, physically hitting the kids,  threatening to murder me and all sh*t under the sun. I am not intending to use this fir her recovery but against her if needs must. I also use these recordings to remind me she is beyond help.

I have gone through what you re going through.  I chose not to record because she would have some ridiculous story and turn it around against me in any case.  I have just been focusing on how to get out ASAP !!!!  I am on to the next stage which is separating the finance first (which is not easy)

My take on recording is that it may be useful for:

- Documenting abuse for lawyer/court
- Helping you to not feel crazy by allowing you to check if something really did/didn't happen

I don't think it's useful AT ALL for trying to change a PD's behavior.

First: THEY DON'T. The problem simply isn't that they misremembered and if they could logically be shown proof they would realize. They are not playing by the rules of facts and logic. So no fact or logic will change them.

Second: They will see it AND USE IT as a huge betrayal to them. She is not going to stick to the subject of "this is what I did or didn't say." Oh no. The new subject will be HOW DARE YOU RECORD ME and it will go from there.

It sounds like you've come a long way with the tools. It takes time to master and even then we all slip up here and there. I do agree there is additional room for those tools in your interactions. Some ideas:

W: You're giving me the silent treatment.
Y: Sorry to hear you feel that way. (Tone is like she stubbed her toe and you're sorry to hear it).

W: Can you please be civil to me?
Y: Sure. (Tone is agreeable like you've been asked if you can help the kids to bed)

Also, I personally try to default to MC, which means I am pleasant though detached on some level. GR happens only when I am actively under fire. GR isn't a punishment but just a safety mechanism for me. You may need to GR all the time if you are constantly under fire. But just ask yourself if MC is possible sometimes. The reason I ask is that it will increase the friction to use GR against a borderline. ESPECIALLY if you are, deep down, trying to punish. So only bring it out when needed.

MC is like the pleasant way we treat people we don't know or trust. You can say good morning. You can offer to load the dishwasher. You can ask to pass the butter. You don't ask for anything unless we can take a no in stride, though. If the butter is refused just grab it, don't look angry, just no problem.

She may bitch less about ST with more MC if you can do it. But stop HOPING. You're answering her questions like you think she'll hear you and change. No. Give up. "What did I do?" "Oh, everything is fine, I'm just in a hurry for work." Because you give up.

Quote from: escapingman on June 14, 2021, 09:29:51 AM
Thanks Simon, great advice. However, I have been recording her on and off for more than 6 months. I have got her shouting, physically hitting the kids,  threatening to murder me and all sh*t under the sun. I am not intending to use this fir her recovery but against her if needs must. I also use these recordings to remind me she is beyond help.

Oh wow!
Fair enough.
That's quite a list of things.

You really do have a bad situation here don't you?
Sounds like you're on top of it though, getting everything ready.

I wish you luck mate.
:thumbup:

In my opinion, recording with the intention of playback to a PD is not only JADE, but if attempted to utilize in a divorce case, frowned upon or even potentially illegal if the other person is not aware recording was ongoing at the time.  That may depend on ones location and laws governing the use of recording devices and privacy laws. 

The reason I consider it JADE is:

1. Playing back a recording to make or prove a point and/or show fault is both A=argue and D=defend by showing fault in the other. 

2. PD's generally have no concept they are in the wrong, nor can they be convinced by another that they are in the wrong, and will use the accusation of wrongdoing, by recording,  to spin the fault to the non in another angle of circular and drama-escalated conversation, which is what No-JADE is designed to prevent. 

If PD's had the capability to see their own actions on playback and change for the better, then therapy would be effective for them, which it is not.  These individuals are mentally underdeveloped and further developing stopped at a certain age.   Protecting oneself and others in our circles of responsibility, as well as reducing the intensity and duration of the drama is the proper action, as the Out of the FOG toolbox teaches.   No-JADE, MC and proper boundaries, all governed/balanced by the 50% and 51% rule are very effective in protecting ourselves. 

Lastly, escapingman, what you just stated is JADE.  You wrote: (parentheses mine)

" I would say I am at least down to 1 out if 10. I still need to be better, but what if I can't?  She just had another discussion with me about how much she loves me and why I am so cold to her, again tried to explain (E=EXPLAIN) I am struggling (D=Defend) as long as she (A=ARGUE) keeps rowing, complaining, back chatting etc and again she totally denies it telling me I am making it all up."

Again, I direct you to the toolbox and mentally run back the past drama scenarios in your mind.  If your response to her is: justifying yourself, arguing in support of yourself or against her actions, defending yourself or explaining yourself, it's JADE.

If you are walking down the street of a town and a begger starts to badger you for your attention and money, do you justify, argue, defend or explain why you dont have the time to stop and give money or that it is annoying to visit town and be badgered and try to get him to understand it's annoying, or try to fix the homeless persons predicament?  Probably no.  You probably just totally ignore them or you say something MC to the person and keep walking.  If you have the willingness  to do that to a begger, you can learn to no-JADE your wife. 

SoT

SoT. As I said, my reason for recording is mainly for myself to keep remembering what has actually happened. I would only use the recordings in a court if it turned ugly, and only if lawful.

Quote from: escapingman on June 15, 2021, 06:06:45 AM
SoT. As I said, my reason for recording is mainly for myself to keep remembering what has actually happened. I would only use the recordings in a court if it turned ugly, and only if lawful.

Understood, but many others commented as well regarding recording, so simply inserting additional thoughts regarding. 

SoT

SoT

I know SoT, just wanted to make it clear.

The cycle keeps going, even though I know I am still getting confused and my hopes up. I know I can follow her in her cycle and enjoy the short "normal" just for her to snap. Right now she is unsure and I think worried I would leave her, so right now she is trying to be good and for me to get back on track. It's so hard to keep her at arms length, but I know as soon as she thinks she got me back where she wants me she will kick off and abuse me. I wish I was strong enough to just walk and get this separation started, TBH the "golden periods" she is giving me are far from golden anymore, they are a bit of respite from the abuse and nothing more. I went away for an overnight stay on my own, for a bit of a rest, mostly from her but I obviously didn't say that, but boy does it feel good to be involved in incidents not going to plan but just shrug your shoulders and say whatever instead of worryingly looking at her and wonder how much will she kick off this time. I have managed to book another trip in a few weeks, considering if I should go or not but I really need every break from her I can get for my own sanity. I am not that happy leaving the kids with her, but as the old saying is you need to save yourself before you can save others.

When "the good times" are only the absence of abuse ......

She has lost it completely, it makes it easier for my to prepare for the separation. I think even the kids have seen it now, Golden Child has started complaining about her to stop behaving like a 2 year old. This morning she really went far down the steps and had a tantrum worse than most I seen. Kids have taken up a hobby they really enjoy, "unfortunately" it is one uNPDw hates, and it takes up quite alot of time. She wants all the timespent with her doing her hobbies and listen to her take on the world, if the kids spend time with me she takes it as they are against her and therefor painted black. This morning rant, I got it all recorded, she covered everything and she let her mask slip completely showing her true colors. She truly believes she does more for the family than me, despite her not having a job and not wanting one, every thing she does she put on her mental list and compare with what I do. I work (not imortant), she goes to the gym (important), She takes the kids to school (important), I pick them up from school (not important), She makes their school lunches (important), I make them their evening meal (not important), she cleans the house every day (important), I work (not important and this has already been cancelled out by her going to the gym), she wash the clothes, I work (I can't use this excuse as work only cancel out her gym), She does he puzzle book (important for her to wind down), I read the news on my phone (not important so should pay attention to her puzzlebook in case she needs help), She puts a grocery order in online (important), I go to the shop and pick up some food (unimportant as it should all have been on her order anyway, and I dare using the wrong supermarket), She watch tv (important recreation), I watch sport on tv (unimportant and a waste of time), She goes to bed early (that's important), I go to bed late (how dare I), She gets up early (that's important so she can follow her morning routine), I get up later (how dare I), the list is endless......

I am out.

Hi escapingman,

When I went through the phase that you are going through now, I didn't know about this Forum and I had no medical insurance for therapy so it was rough.  My guts were turned inside out.... It took me a while to get Out of the FOG and am starting to control my life again. It feels good.  I think it's important that your kids understand the situation.  I waited until my youngest turned 13 to decide that I was getting out despite a lot of suffering...

My point is that you are just going through the motion and I see that you have actually been trying to make things work.  So you are just in my mind going through a path that many have gone through on this Forum.  I wish you courage...

Thanks Ploughthrough2021, you posts in here are very valuable.

It's the crazy making, the hot and cold, the pure evil followed by complete lack of understanding of what just happened. She creates divides in the family, she pits the kids against each other, she demands me to back her unreasonable actions against minor offences. All weekend was washed away by this and she can only see her fake truth, it really helps to be Out of the FOG (or as far out of it I can be). It's disturbing to look at how an adult person can behave in such way, I have tried to live with it, tried to accept the bad with the good, but as there are no good anymore all I can see is a black evil demon that is breaking mine and the kids hearths. I just need to find the last bit of will power and to contact a family solicitor to talk through my options. A couple of months ago I could have just walked away from it all, but I am not going to do that, the one that should have to walk is her. 

I am starting to get worried for real now and understand the need to get our quick. The golden child started shouting and swearing at me today, she justify it with that she wants me to suffer the same as her mother when she is being shouted at. The issue is of course, the pain uNPDw receives and let GC know is mostly manufactured. Yes, SG is doing a lot of shouting at her mother, but that is almost all the time following an abuse session by her mother. I think both kids (and me) needs therapy, but I have no idea how to move that forward and especially with a covert narc involved still.

For all it's worth, we tried a family session (therapy).  It didn't go anywhere for us because the kids were reserved and my wife started to talk a bit louder to the kids which threw the young therapist off (I think she was a bit inexperienced).  For me, it is a bit easier as none of the 3 children are 'Golden'.  A family session may help you though because of the golden child.

EM, This is such a terrible situation and I really feel for you.  I've gone through it twice.  First time was with kids, long ago, after xH with NPD traits had split the kids into GC and SG and he and I had become unhappy roommates with no relationship.  But I had yet to see the full on PD thinking and behavior disorder until the last BPDNPDx. 

   Really?  He's incapable of rational thinking on any emotional issue (and what isn't emotional for someone with a small child's maturity).  He really, literally, is incapable of imagining what it's like to be in someone else's shoes?  He can't refrain from being abusive?  He can't make any good use of special therapy or even stick with it when the consequences of not doing so are so dire?  Really?  That's pretty hard to believe that he's utterly incapable of these and so many other baseline adult responses.

  For me, maybe not for anyone else . . . but for me, part of that was I didn't want to see.  So for a good long time I focused on what could be done to fix him and feeling outraged that he continued to act like a PD despite everyone's best efforts.  To accept the truth meant I had to consider leaving.  I didn't know why that was so hard, but it was.

   The next part of the process was when a shift started happening from me looking at what he was doing and why,  to beginning to look at what I wasn't doing (leaving) and why.  There really wasn't much to ponder about him.  A duck quacks.  A pwPD acts and thinks like a pwPD.  They're both very consistent and I am completely powerless to change that - as is he, I believe.

   That left me with "I know having a halfway decent, healthy relationship with him will never happen.  It is completely hopeless."  This was not an easy step for me to get to *at all,* and took some years.  But I never seriously considered leaving him until I got there.  That left me working with me, in therapy, until I hit bottom and left him.  It was supposed to be forever but it lasted a year.

    Something very terrible happened to him (not even his fault for once) and I ended up back with him to keep it from being fatal.  Not that I had to.  But i did.   He returned from the jaws of death and did his PD cycle, got abusive and vengeful, and i left.  It's been almost 2 1/2 yrs.  I went NC with him 1 1/2 yrs ago.  Then, and only then, did I start really discovering the issues I had which had made it so hard to leave.  I've been working in therapy on those. 

   All this to say, it was a real process going from the fog to actually separating or divorcing.  For me it was necessary to take my focus off of him and begin to look at me.  And it continues to be a process, but one that holds out hope and gets better by the weeks and months instead of worse.  I'm wishing for you that it won't take years and years more to become clear about what you need to do and able to carry through.  Good luck!

Thanks Lookin 2 B Free.

I have started to disconnect and I am trying to concentrate on myself. I need to look at my health, eat better, drink less, exercise more, but all this has come second as I have always been running from putting out one fire after another. When it comes to the evening I am shattered, I either have to pander to her and do whatever to keep her happy, or else listen to her complaining all day for me not assisting her, I have realized the latter is better as she would complain anyway. But, she can literally stand in front of me shouting at me in my face telling me I am the worst human being in the world and that she can't wait to see me dead, then an hour later wonder why I am not sitting down eating lunch with her and subsequently blaming me for being in a bad mood.

I now you are right, I need to leave for my own sanity and to save my own life. I am nearly nearly there, or am I? Every time I am close I have a wobble and think, what if? I need to erase that last "what if".

Yes, you have to exhaust the 'what ifs'.  It took me about 3 years...  Now I'm ready to call it a day...

I know there is no chance, she just can't see. Yesterday she decided that she has again "forgotten" how she behaved over the weekend and kept coming to give me hugs (and expecting the same back), I just felt sick being touched by her. She kept telling me how much she loves me, I kept telling her if she really does she needs to stop the abuse, but her only answer to that is/was there is no abuse and it's all in my head - yeah right.... Then the kids came home from school, GC was excited about something and kept asking her to look at it, she got stressed and started shouting following by hitting GC over the arm. Her anger could only be stopped by GC apologizing (for something she didn't do). Then 5 minutes later she pretends again that everything is perfect, before she have another breakdown and this time with SG.... I really can't handle this roller coaster anymore.

Dear escaping man. I notice that you are talking with us everyday, sharing stories of what your spouse is doing to you and the children. You tell us that nothing has changed and that you have had enough. However, I fear that you are stuck in that place and not moving forward. I don't see any plan on the horizon.

Please sit with yourself and try to identify what, exactly, is stopping you from making the next step.  Please do this.

Quote from: escapingman on June 24, 2021, 04:02:02 AM
"forgotten" how she behaved over the weekend and kept coming to give me hugs (and expecting the same back), I just felt sick being touched by her.

My situation wasn't anywhere near as bad as yours but I did experience that exact behaviour.
After months of disgusting behaviour like coldness, devaluing, silent treatment, suspected cheating (at that time), lying, etc, as I was getting ready to leave for work, my BPD ex gf put her arms around my neck, kissed my passionately, and then said "I Love You".
The first bit of warmth for months, and all I could think was "Get the F off me!".
Couldn't stand her touch anymore.
I didn't say that of course.
I think I just said "See you later." or something similar.
I have no idea why she was suddenly so warm.
Could have been an external trigger (or lack of), or more than likely an internal trigger that had nothing to do with me at all.
When you don't know it's their pathology, their flip-flopping can seem so weird.

And I agree with Boat Babe.
If you know that there's no hope, and you know she has a PD, then you need to start making a plan.
It isn't going to sort itself out, she isn't going to get better, and as painful as it's going to be, it's still going to be better than staying.
And in the long run, you will get a normal life for you and your children.

I've said it before, but when we understand that our other half has a mental illness like BPD/NPD, then anything further that happens after that point is down to us.
We are accepting it, enabling it, and we can no longer blame the person with a Personality Disorder for what is happening.
We can only blame ourselves for letting it happen.
we are complicit.

Wishing you strength mate.

I can understand why escapingman is not actively planning.  I was in that mode for a while.  When you have kids, it is quite difficult to just pack up and go...

Dear escapingman,

I know where you are.  Still in the FOG yet seeing the edge yet hoping it's not real - that what you are experiencing isn't real.  There was something inside of me that denied the fact that this was a personality disorder and recovery was minimal.  I kept hoping and searching for anything that belied what was happening to me.  And life kept occurring - major life stuff and small stuff that would distract me or at best, just postpone what was happening.  I had made vows, dreams, and plans, and giving those up was a death as real as the loss of a parent.

Don't think we are anything but understanding, sympathetic as well as supportive.  You are in turmoil and it is hard to see reality when the world is spinning.

I encouraged you in other posts to take time to step outside of your situation - when you posted about a family trip - the reason for that is so you could breathe and detach from the emotion.  Make a plan without the daily drama of your wife.  I still encourage you to do that but the reality - again - is with kids and job it isn't possible.

But please, in those quiet moments whether they be in the wee early hours or that fifteen minutes of commuting or that ten minutes in the bathroom - breathe, live in the present, and let those circling thoughts go when they begin to intrude.  When you can do that, you will be able to plan and determine what is best for you and your family.

I've been there - so many of us have - and it is devastatingly hard.  Heart-wrenching.  If you want to change your situation, I believe you can.  Your posts indicate that you are a smart, resourceful, and compassionate person who wants what is best for your family.  You can do this.  I believe in you.

 :yeahthat:

escaping man,

My heart goes out to you.  I have experienced so much of what you describe, it is incredibly difficult to live in day to day.

I had to remind myself constantly that updxh was either not willing or capable of change, or some combination thereof.  My survival depended upon me telling myself the truth moment by moment, and giving up all hope in order to survive with my sanity intact. 

Conserve your mental/emotional resources whenever you can.  Use them judiciously to strengthen your skillset on the toolbox things that Son of Thunder was encouraging you on. 

Please consider finding a T for your children very soon.  Establish this as their routine so that they have a trusted, outside relationship they can lean upon when you separate from updw.  This will be a source of help for them and you, an investment.
I know it's hard to navigate when spouse is unstable like yours' is.  But, If you are going to die on a hill, this would be a good one.

You are not alone, sending strength your way

Thanks for all your comments, it's really touching that so many people care. You are all spot on, I need to make a plan, but as you also have understood I am not completely Out of the FOG and that makes it torture - I know what she is but my emotion thinking is tripping me up. As you have said, I need distance to look at this from outside, but the last week has been a complete nightmare with her isolating and being home 24 hours a day. Since her outburst last weekend she has painted me white for some reason, this has of course come with the expense that the kids has got her rage at various times. So this week has really just been about keeping the head above water and to be there for the kids. As you also written, there always seems to be something small or big that comes in and stops the escape. I think this is the last of the FOG I need to deal with, I just got to stop feeling guilty for putting my own needs before hers. I probably should see a T, but I am so worried I would get one that doesn't understand and instead will make this worse. If it wasn't for the kids I would just leave and don't look back, but I tried twice but couldn't stay away from them so returned home (she manipulated them into believing I was leaving them too).

I had a therapist for couple and then had a few more sessions with her individually and she completely missed the boat.  During the couple therapy, she concluded that I had to change for her... Good thing I had insurance back then.  The guidance from this website has been spot on.  When I split the finance, I will definitely donate to this group !!!!

I think I despite all she has done has been hopping I am wrong. Deep down I know I am right but still struggling. However,  she has just had another day where she unmasked herself and really behaved like the devil. It's becoming so obvious but it hurts, she do or say something and I pick her up on I and she blatantly denies it - even 5 seconds after the event she pretends it never happened. I really fear for the children's wellbeing allowing them to see this being in the middle of her complete breakdown. I am going to have to fight her tooth and nail as I don't trust her with the children anymore. I am currently away for a few days (getting rest from this charade), but just had a long list of messages from SG saying her toys has been confiscated and that uNPD raged and screamed at her and that she has been told she is not going to be getting anything to eat tonight. I need to use this week to make a real plan and to start executing it in a weeks time.

Good luck man. You can do this. ❤️

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