Out of the FOG

Hi friends,
I am trying to figure out how to handle a situation and am asking for your input.

This weekend, my uNPDh was giving the kids (11 and 14) a friendly lecture about something benign as we drove in the car. The lecture was dragging on for a while, and they started talking among themselves. DH lashed out at them in an angry, loud monologue for maybe 20 minutes, accusing them of unrelated things and telling them stuff like they were bad and foolish people. Afterwards, I privately reassured them that there was nothing more or less they could do to earn our love. Should I let it rest at that and overlook it? Confront him? Tell the kids that type of angry outburst is wrong? Set a boundary of some sort? If so, what?

Thanks,
Mary

Quote from: Mary on September 20, 2021, 10:12:43 PM
Hi friends,
I am trying to figure out how to handle a situation and am asking for your input.

This weekend, my uNPDh was giving the kids (11 and 14) a friendly lecture about something benign as we drove in the car. The lecture was dragging on for a while, and they started talking among themselves. DH lashed out at them in an angry, loud monologue for maybe 20 minutes, accusing them of unrelated things and telling them stuff like they were bad and foolish people. Afterwards, I privately reassured them that there was nothing more or less they could do to earn our love. Should I let it rest at that and overlook it? Confront him? Tell the kids that type of angry outburst is wrong? Set a boundary of some sort? If so, what?

Thanks,
Mary

Mary, im sorry this occurred. 

Confront?  My opinion is no, as it JADEing. 

Boundary?   My opinion is: the two boundaries i see is for the kids to be future-aware to only have any discussions among themselves, away from their father.  Second boundary could be separate vehicles.  Vehicles (and hotel rooms) are PD behavior 'traps' imo. 

Overlook it?   I believe yes and no.  Yes, to not JADE.  But, no, because  i believe children can be creatively taught the actions/reactions of MC, noJADE, boundaries, 50% and 51% rules without being exposed to PD or Out of the FOG terminology.

SoT

To Mary,  :bighug:
Do what is right. What is right according to your understanding of faith, regarding children. Let God be God. You cannot control the words of another parent. If you are not in the car, believe me from my own experience, he will find another venue when you are NOT around or cannot control. Remember too, kids are resilient, they can see dad is being mean and cruel. As long as you can validate their feelings they are being cared for. God see and hears it all.

Regarding spouse.., IME (experience) I wait for an appropriate time... when I am being love bombed or sometime like that to say, "oh, by the way.. something really bothered me the other day... " and then I do not blame or accuse. I will say, the tone, conversation, (whatever) with the kids the other day unnerved me and maybe them too. I don't know that you want to come off that way to the kids. I know you want them to know... whatever.

Then before he can respond... I say something positive. Like thank you for the flowers or the coffee or whatever. If he wants to start on it, I will again in a positive way assume the best and tell him, I am sure he does not want to be unkind etc. however it fits. I will also LET IT GO.

What I say is not a lie. They do not THiNK they want to be that way. My purpose... I am not deaf, dumb and blind, I see what you did. I will not address it to get into a confrontation. But, I do want you to know I am aware.

I am sharing what works for me. People behave as we expect them to behave. By telling him this way, I am showing some kind of respect without accusing or as has been said jading etc.

I have had good results with this. At the same time the little tweaked part of him is hearing my side of the event. Yes, children first. I always told my kids how much their dad loved them, but sometimes was not perfect and reassured them as you did.

All of my sons, now adults with families, love their dad, know his limitations and have a limited (on his end) relationship with him. In fact, sometimes I don't like them either! They have some of the characteristics of what I would call his negative side, but they are all responsible men of character and leadership.

I could have N tendencies. I can't say I am free of them either. However, they are tendencies and not deep seated in nature. I have other issues. Don't we all...
It is not the end of the world. It is not the end of your children's self-esteem. Give God some credit and room in this situation too.

This is just what has worked for me. N's love attention from their targets. Especially positive, which is you. You have a lot of power in the way you say things to get some small changes. Just my own life observation. We can't change their entire nature.

I think of my unpdh like an emotional 4 yr, old as described by Sam Vankin. It gives me power. It helps a lot. I can love a 4 yr old, and I can make sure he gets what he needs so he does not feel unloved in his world. Easier than imagined.

From your lips to Gods'  ears. I pray for wisdom on your behalf.

I would not let it sit if it's safe to do otherwise.

I would mention to the lecturer that you know he felt disrespected, but that the kids are old enough and intellectually mayire enough to have a two way conversation instead of being lectured to and that by insisting on lecturing them he is disrespecting them as well.

I would also be up front with the kids about how you feel they were treated  etc.

I shield DD in these cases, if she is getting upset. (If she's just annoyed I just wait to see if it gets dropped rather than lighting the fuse).

If I say something, no matter how neutral or even kind, he'll turn on me. It's not fun but I am the adult and it's my job. For the child, it's no fun watching mom get yelled at but it's a relief to be out of the crosshairs. So, yes, I model strength and say something rather than being cowed. Jesus would not just sit there silently while someone was being abused - and that goes a hundred times for children.

I might say something like "perhaps we can discuss this at home when we all feel better?" or "perhaps the two of us can discuss this at home, as parents?" It will not go well. But I know what I said was perfectly kind to everyone, reasonable, mature, balanced.

As for boundaries, as mentioned, the main one is to avoid being trapped in a car with him as much as possible. You might want to very slowly increase outings without him somehow, and slowly decrease outings with him.

Here's the difference in an adult looking back on their childhood:

My father yelled at me all the time and my mother never said a word.

I have nobody I can count on. I'm on my own.

My mother knew what was going on but let it happen.

Vs.

My father yelled at me all the time and my mom stood up for me.

I know when things get rough, I have my mother in my corner.

My mother is a strong woman of faith.

Im enjoying reading the interesting responses. 

In my experiences as a child of a uPDfather and caretaker mother, i can say that my NPD-proud lecturing and heavy-handed spanking father would have a similar verbally explosive response if he felt disrespected by us children, and in turn, my mother also experienced the same explosive response each time if she came to our defense at the time of the verbal abuse.  In fact, i believe my mother's attempt at defense, injured his pride even worse and caused him to ramp the drama and then control manipulation up even further, to show his kids and wife who was boss.  He would attempt similar things in the near future to test whether his kids and wife 'learned their lesson' regarding respecting him.  No amount of my mothers verbal self-defense soothed any scene to my knowledge.  If the disrespecting happened in more public settings (relationship circles 3-5) the more we circle 1 (mother) and 2 (kids) took the heat later in private.   

With us younger two children, the verbal abuse (and occasional angry belt/branch over-reactive ass-whoopings) was repetitive and so I wish my mother would have not joined us in the attempted self-defensive verbally-abused corner, but used her adult legal rights to protect us by leaving him and finding us two kids, a quiet peaceful space to reside with her.  That would have been the ultimate boundary power my mother could have done to protect us children whose legal-right muscle could not be flexed.  That did not happen. 

Mary wrote:  "This weekend, my uNPDh was giving the kids (11 and 14) a friendly lecture about something benign as we drove in the car. The lecture was dragging on for a while, and they started talking among themselves".  The second abusive lecture of the PD was triggered by assumed disrespect. 

So Mary, is this the first time your two children have experienced this hurt-pride overreaction from their (lecture-prone?) father?  We can only control ourselves and that goes for our children (certain age ranges) also.  Imo, kids of your age can well-learn that some people (future other people in their lives as well) can be triggered into overreaction by indifference/ignoring, and after they experience it once, that powerful self-control of the variety of boundaries (including silence as a boundary) through understanding can be hugely beneficial in creating more peace for themselves.  *Proverbs 17:28 and Proverbs 29:11 are two good morsels of Biblical advice on the power of the selective-timing use of silence as a tool.  Jesus was indeed powerfully silent many times and its power can be seen by the reaction of those who experienced his self-control.  The understanding of human behaviors and proper, silent use of helpful communication tools is something that can be very empowering.

Imo in situations where a parent of children has chosen to remain with a difficult, verbally abusive spouse, its especially important to (age appropriate):

"It is not what you do FOR your children, but what you have taught your children to do FOR THEMSELVES, that will make them successful human beings" -Ann Landers

For some mothers though, teaching kids that abuse will not be tolerated, and leaving the marriage with kids in-tow IS teaching them that highly protective modeling lesson as well. 

SoT

 :yeahthat:

What would you/could you do when you are the one on the receiving end of those "monologues"? How could you protect yourself? Please, do that for your kids. I like the deflections square suggested. I also think it would be appropriate to flatly state that his behavior is inappropriate, if he won't allow you to save face for him by responding to a gentler suggestion to knock it off.

I'm not sure whether this is an especially spiritual/religious issue for you, but since you posted in this part of the forum I'll share my thoughts on that. You seem to be concerned with saving your husband's reputation in the eyes of your kids. Why would it be an issue to tell them that kind of angry outburst is wrong? The fact that dad does it makes it even more important to counteract the damage done, not less. What your kids think of him is up to his behavior. It's a disservice, or even sinful and cowardly, to malform them or neglect to teach them right from wrong to enable a dysfunctional husband. He has the opportunity to make it good by asking forgiveness, making amends, and changing his behavior. You are giving him that opportunity to be a godly man when you rebuke him, not when you cover for him.

I can't speak to the spiritual aspect of this. I've been in a very similar situation though, several times, one very memorable. It's a horrible feeling. Stuck in the car. Captive audience. With someone who may become more unhinged, it feels dangerous... What if they lose control of the car in their anger, or purposely drive dangerously. I agree with what some have hinted at that they pwpd knows they have us'trapped' there. Horrible. And I've had the experience where coming to Ds defense ramps up the abuse. I lost it in the car once with Updh cuz I felt cornered and trapped.
Also, though that question was not raised, choosing to leave is a very complicated issue as many on this forum have addressed over the years.
It is always so hard to know the 'right' thing to do. I've always tried to do my best to be supportive of Ds when I can and to run interference at times. I was so afraid also of alienating D's from his f, or of being seen as trying to do so.
When I felt D's was old enough I did have a very serious discussion with him about our situation with Updh. While I can't say this is the right choice for everyone, or what age is'old enough' I do feel it worked well in our situation.

Howdy,
me again. I don't think we can "teach" another adult anything, nor do I believe "confronting" at the moment is wise. Picking apart anyone's faults is asking for more pain, whether they are reasonable, normal or not. Many of us at times say and do inappropriate things. We can be triggered without knowing it until we are deep into something that does not work for us.

An argumentative, hostile person is a ticking time bomb with or without the provocation of anyone's behavior. Because you are committed to staying, finding creative ways to handle bad circumstances is your greatest challenge. Trying to stop a rant of an unpdh is a waste of time and it will backfire on you.

Shielding children from their harsh father (I did not say abusive. many times,  is in the mind and perspective of the observer)  is not necessarily wise. We throw that word around like we all see it the same way.

Mothers (I for one) often see the experiences of their children quite differently than dads. Father's can sometimes be unaware of how they sound. They are men. Men are differently created than women. To "provide,""preserve" and "protect" brings with it some character traits women would not consider appealing perhaps. At some points in history men had to live brutally among harsh circumstance to care for their vulnerable families. God did not remove that because culture has changed. We still send young men to war. They still need to be tough. IE: A wimpy drill sergeant does not exist, yet the men a drill sergeant  trains will know how to defend themselves and others with confidence. So, men are equipped for the worst, by God, for the protection of others. They can ruffle feminine feathers by just being men.

Let's not deny them their place in God's' design with their own children. If we have set our children up to be heartbroken when they hear a harsh word, we have done them a disservice IMO.

This world will not coddle them, as we wish it would.  I think sometimes we see everything through the eyes of the target person because we have learned so much. I would not in any way speak as a "parent" to an ill-behaved spouse.

Most often it intensifies their anger etc.

Mothers will have heartache.. Genesis 3... "you shall have pain in childbirth" (maybe in more ways than one).

I am not validating his behavior here (never!) but... frankly it did not kill them.

Bottom line, I  bet the children will think twice the next time dad starts one of his lectures. IMO, they should listen intently and not interrupt him by talking to each other if he is seriously instructing them. This is courteous respect.

He will not be the only one in life they will have to tolerate in some form. I understand personality disorders, especially narcissism are increasing at a phenomenal rate as we have become the "generation of self."

I think sometimes on this forum, and I include myself, we can be the personality defect police. Perhaps he isn't as bad as we here perceive him, but we have learned to interpret the behaviors of others through our own experience and the boatload of info to which we have availed ourselves. That's really all we have.

You sound like a loving wife and a caring, concerned mother. You will do the right thing because your desire is to be faithful to God. Let Him be your ultimate guide.
However...sometimes he sends people to deliver wisdom. Pray about it.

I think it is a great point that we must all work with great humility, recognizing that there is a wide range of acceptable parenting styles, and the two of them do not need to walk in lock step. The range of styles, especially the average divergence between men and women, may be a valuable component of the two-parent household.

But we can teach adults. I do it all the time. Any time you speak persuasively and someone changes their mind, you've taught them something. And people with a modicum of personal control can apply their learnings to modify their behaviors.

I appreciate the point that not all harsh guidance is abusive: we must pause and really analyze a behavior to decide if it is out of bounds, or merely different. But any time either spouse -- having considered the full range of reasonable and acceptable styles -- believes their spouse to be out of bounds, I commend them for redirecting the situation. If it is a pattern, I encourage them to correct the spouse in private, discussing sample interactions and describing how they think it could be improved. They may be persuaded they were wrong, or maybe the other spouse changes their mind. But the conversation, I believe, is part of what we owe each other in marriage. My wife makes me better, and I believe she says the same of me.

Be good. Be strong. Do both with humility.

Men and women certainly have different styles on average. I encourage married couples to learn from one another to bring those styles together with grace.

I agree to not confronting in the moment.  To confront in front of the kids would be disrespectful in the eyes of the Lecturer.

It would need to be brought up when things were calm, in a non scolding way.

Thanks friends, ever so much, for your input. It is a great encouragement to have these ideas to think/pray over and try out. I especially like hearing the parenting stories you are telling from the standpoint of a parent and of a child.

After reading the responses, here is my action plan.
1. The next time we are traveling as a family for any length of time, teach the kids what to do if dad lectures for a long time. They must not talk or fight. They can draw or play with legos/crochet--something with their hands. If it goes on long, It's OK to close their eyes and listen or even fall asleep.
2. During a date night, broach the subject of angry lectures. Say that I appreciate that he is teaching the children, but that an angry lecture may be counterproductive. Suggest alternative punishments such as not allowing them to order soda etc. when we arrive at the restaurant.
3. Speak directly to the anger issue. Point out that anger in and of itself is not a good punishment, is not a virtue, and is not a good way to get us to help him. Say that I want to help and please him, but I will be stepping away or even driving separately if it continues. Give him a heads up that when he raises his voice in anger, I will point it out by saying, "You are getting angry."

We'll see how it goes.

Mary

I wish you all the best with your three-part plan.  Possibly consider reporting back in on this thread with updates to how your plans are working.  👍

SoT

My spouse used to get worked up about things in the news. He would start telling  me about it then get angrier and start yelling at me.

He would also do this sort of thing when lecturing the kids.

I started pointing it out  sort of like this.

I know that ___--___ made you angry but what did I do to deserve being yelled at.  Why are you angry toward me? I though we were on the same team. I am not disagreeing with you I just don't see the need to be all worked up in order to talk about something

I know you are concerned about the _______ topic regarding the kids, but we have great kids with x and y traits/virtues they obviously got from you. Don't let fears and anger about the world around us ruin things between you and them Then need you as Dad, not an angry ruler.  Try two way conversations, they always enjoy that kind of time with you so much.

I love your plan, Mary :)

Wow Mary,
Tell us how it went. I can't point out anything that refers directly to him... it goes to darvo and suddenly, he once again is the victim and the issue I started with is not addtressed.

I am much more brief in my "confrontation." Only saying things about my side of the fence. If I refer to anything he could possibly respond to about himself, the fireworks begin.

I do pray it went/goes well for you. Perhaps your dh is more open to hear.

A short update: I discussed with the kids their options for activities while dad is lecturing. They have been doing pretty good about drawing or half-reading while DH is talking to them. They give an occasional response during the lecture and that keeps things going relatively smoothly.

The other day, DH pointed out several things I could use as punishments for the kids "when I get angry". I told him that I don't have to get angry to discipline them. I have my list of acceptable punishments if they cross the line. This comment was my sideways way of pointing out that anger is not a way to discipline. I don't know if it sunk in, but things have been going better in this area.

I'm getting more comfortable at communicating non-verbally that the belittling and anger are out of line.
Here is an article I just read that I hope to put into practice in this regard.
https://leslievernick.com/how-do-i-speak-up-to-my-trial-lawyer-husband/
Mary

What a great update!

Quote from: square on November 12, 2021, 11:44:51 PM
What a great update!

:yeahthat:

Will watch the video! 

SoT

Hello Mary,

I have read the article (i realized it was not a video). I understand the article fully, as my uNPDw is degreed English and language arts expert and a very intelligent and cunning conversational bully, just the same as the trial lawyer in the article.  Thanks for sharing and Im happy for you that you are experiencing personal self-encouragement in speaking up.   :)  :thumbup:

My experience in doing so, is circular conversations with a conversational bully, so i do not speak my desires or feelings, but rather use boundaries to self-protect when the bully shows its head.  In my opinion the responses the author gives as examples are creative for a person (non) who desires to continue a conversation, but they are the E in JADE, as the bully has caused the speaker to stop speaking and use creative questions to circumvent the bully and get the bully to E=Explain that the non has indeed spoken clearly and loud enough to be heard. 

If the bully answers the questions at all (mine wont because she sees through a circumvent attempt), it simply reverse-validates the E=explain, as if the non had directly JADE-explained without the circumvent.  Therefore again, its simply a backdoor JADE imo, and only assists by providing encouraging strength to the non to be 'heard' and therefore validated.  I believe also that allowing the bully to stop my conversation, gives a power feed to the bully.  I quit speaking and walk away and will not continue a chat on the subject.  My bully uNPDw has learned by example, that if she attempts to PD-bully in conversation, she will find herself standing alone. 

I personally believe the decision to do either (boundary or reverse-JADE) is a personal one, based on the needs of the non. 

Vernick wrote:  "Jesus was an excellent communicator but he did not always have good outcomes. At times he spoke his truth, other times he kept his mouth shut knowing that speaking would yield no good results". 

I personally do not believe Jesus was seeking 'outcomes'.  Being very God, he could have instantly manufactured outcomes if he desired.  But being he does not desire his creation to be puppets, he simply desires to lay out the truth and let it sit. 

I also do not believe Jesus was quiet because he knew it would not produce good results.  Again, he's God; he can manufacture any results he wants and he had his own agenda and timeline he was following, so any 'results' that did occur didn't change anything about his plans or timeline, and in his omniscience, he for-knew any 'results' or lack thereof.  Imo, Jesus was purposefully silent to exert power, be a living example of the teachings of his word and to fulfill prophesy (see verses below).   

SoT

——————-

Proverbs 11:12

Proverbs 17:27-28

Proverbs 18:6-7

Proverbs 18:13

Proverbs 21:23

Proverbs 29:11

James 1:19

Psalm 141:3

Isaiah 30:15

Isaiah 53:7

   

Yes, I see your point. T/H also suggested that responding would not help. I tried this weekend to make the statement, "You seem to be full of angst," when DH was riding DS for asking an innocent question in the car. It didn't help. Instead, I wish I had put in earplugs and when we arrived at the destination, refused to go in. ( I did try to get an uber but it would have been super expensive.)

Quote from: Mary on November 16, 2021, 11:06:58 PM
Yes, I see your point. T/H also suggested that responding would not help. I tried this weekend to make the statement, "You seem to be full of angst," when DH was riding DS for asking an innocent question in the car. It didn't help. Instead, I wish I had put in earplugs and when we arrived at the destination, refused to go in. ( I did try to get an uber but it would have been super expensive.)

Mary, im sorry you experienced that behavior.  Not certain the age of your son, but he should be taught imo by you, to recognize bullying responses (from anyone) on the front end of a conversation and zip his lips until it stops. If a younger child and its a parent doing the bullying, then the child keeping ears & attention open for parental respect (to avoid more bullying for that new reason) is imo appropriate, When the bully gets tired of a one-way conversation and turns around, your son should put in his earbuds or headphones and listen to favorite music or audiobooks.   

I use my over-ear, noise-cancelling (deaden's the silent-treatment mumbles) headphones in the car and headphones/earbuds are a boundary wall of protection that must come down to be heard.  My uPDw feels the boundary of my headphones and silently knows that it is MY self-action that brings the boundary down, therefore she cannot just rant at me, without asking my permission to take my 'boundary-phones' off.  I win from the beginning. 

If she politely asks me to take them off, so she can be heard, and she starts on a rant about me, i simply tell her i am not interested in discussing her subject, and that I'm listening to something at this time and put them back on.  Silent treatment is the result, but the superior noise-cancelling, plus excellent music/speech quality of the Bose 35's takes me mentally away.  Best $300 I've ever spent and much cheaper than counseling haha. 

Automobiles are PD bully cages imo. 

SoT

I am rereading and studying responses here. Thank you.

I recently unexpectedly set a boundary regarding the cranky car lectures. No sooner had I gotten in the car, the lecture started. (Before I got in actually). I just about got out before we reached the end of the driveway, but didn't. The farther down the road we got, the more I realized that this was unhealthy to listen to and unhealthy for the kids to see. I told him to stop the car and let me out so he would not have to put up with me the rest of the evening. I opened the door expecting him to slow down. He didn't.  I restated myself and did not shut the door. He thought I was going to jump out (I had no intention of this!). He abruptly backpedaled and said he wanted me to go along and that he was directing his lecture to the kids (about not doing what I had done--met him 5 min late). The incident must have shook him up a little because he kept coming back to it and apologizing. I took the opportunity to emphasize that I have had it with the cranky car lectures.

My boundary is to have headphones ready and be prepared to stay home on a dime if I can see a cranky lecture coming. I will also drive separate more often and look for opportunities to do so.

Hi Mary,

Those boundaries sound very healthy and effective.  I look forward to reading about them in action.

SoT