I'm in a dilemma. Like others here, dysfunctional FOO background slowly coming out of fog x yrs. I was a " fixer" , always rushing in to save the situation. Grew up absorbing everyone's feelings, anticipating others needs, minimising mine. I would be triggered for days on end without even noticing, as my body literally has to scream at me.
Thanks to the work I've done over the years , I now am much more in touch with my body sending me alarm bells, my right to personal boundaries and letting go of FOG.
My question is this- after the most recent episode with FOO my T is suggesting I need to " call out" their behaviour more. Not in anger, or resentment, but as an authentic way of communicating. In other words not just saying nothing and " letting it go".
There was a family occasion recently where we were invited to attend and didn't. We explained why we were unable to go - which was reasonable - but it came with pushback, as expected. I let that go, said we were sorry to miss but wished them a nice time.
Usually we would be sent lots of photos from FOO if a significant event we can't attend or if they are on vacation. Not this time. Nothing. Silence. I saw it , correctly I think, as punishment. I ignored it, telling myself I am not responsible for how others react to my boundaries, what they choose to withhold from me as punitive way of cutting me out. It really hurts, and it's nasty, imv.
So I did nothing. Here's the confusion. T says I am being disingenuous/ inauthentic. I thought she would be cheering me on for setting a boundary knowing the pushback I'd likely get! That I said I was sorry to miss but when I received no photos/ pictures or updates on the day I should have called it out. That the authentic thing to do would have been to send a message hey folks why haven't you sent me a picture, or the like. ( I'm paraphrasing). I think her point was that if I was genuine sorry to miss I would also have followed up on why I heard nothing further. In other words she says that my silence on the matter is part of the game. What do you think ?
What I did though was make a choice. I decided that how they behave is outside of my control, that I make peace with that and move forward. I did think I could call it out at time but knew where that would go so I didn't. Maybe I'm wrong? Who knows. Maybe if I had the whole family system could have breathed a bit. Maybe it would have been more genuine, healthy , authentic?
My gut tells me calling out these sorts of dynamics pokes the bear and leaves me very vulnerable to further FOG. My T I think feels that that sort of silence is self serving and disingenuous. But I do also wants me to be a person of integrity, not afraid to speak my truth if it's needed, I am willing to do it , if its the right thing even if hard. I have some experience in 12 step recovery too and I am willing to keep my side " clean" . But on this one I just don't know if she is right ,or if I am handing over too much power and not trusting myself, now in a pit of confusion and FOG.
Uuuuggh. I'm spinning, in a loop I can't get out of.
Thoughts ??
Where is the line between authentic communication , speaking truth, discernment, and keeping oneself safe?
:stars: :stars:
This is really interesting and I look forward to what others think. I think there is a sliding scale when it comes to PD families and there is a lot of grey area in there which is why you need to figure out how to approach your own family. In some families there is baiting, and if the behaviour is called out then that reaction is used for further abuse. In this case I am not sure calling out the behaviour is good.
In your case I can see what your therapist is saying. You genuinely couldn't attend an invite, there was push back and I think your response was great. It was non reactive. However then there is silence which you are seeing as a game and most likely it is punishment on their end however the other side of this is, do you want to know how it went. You are expecting them to reach out and send pictures but at the end of the day you can't control them. So I would think about if you want to know how the day went and if there are pictures. If the answer is yes I don't think there is anything wrong with sending a message of "Hey how did xyz day go, are there any pictures, I'd love to see them". I don't think this is playing any games, I think it is being authentic.
I think calling out the behaviour in a reactive way may not work. If you sent a message of "hey why are you ignoring me, you usually send pictures, I'm upset over this" or even "why haven't you folks sent a picture yet", I think this sort of calling out is probably going to add to the problem, but reaching out because you genuinely want to know how it went, what's wrong with that. If you think about "hey why haven't you sent a picture yet" or 'why haven't I heard anything", it's kind of highlighting the silent treatment and acknowledging it and sort of blaming them and I think this could lead to them using this to then scapegoat you or smear you. Whereas being authentic to me would be you simply stating the fact that you would love to see the photo's and hear the update.
Of course if they still don't respond then it gets trickier because whether you engage to call out the silent treatment or not, hmmm, I'm not sure about that. Again that comes down to your FOO and where they sit on that grey scale. Perhaps that's where your therapist could help with dialogue etc.
I know with my FOO they use any reaction to smear me or mock me however I do want to stand up for myself. I just want to do it in a way that isn't reactive to the family dysfunction. Getting into a conversation about whether they are doing the silent treatment IMO could go badly because it then becomes a 'no we aren't doing that, you were always so sensitive' or 'you were always so difficult'. At least that is how it's gone in my family. So I do think there is value in being authentic however I also don't think we need to go into those areas which we know are pits, where what we say, no matter how we say it may be used for further abuse.
If they didn't respond to your request for an update or photo's perhaps you could simply wait a week and then send a quick message of 'It seems you're really busy but hopefully we can catch up when you are free and I can hear how the day went'. This puts it back on them, that you simply think they are busy and you will catch up later. I don't know if your therapist would find this authentic because no you are not bringing up the subject that they appear to be giving you the silent treatment but again, would that conversation of bringing that up, get you anywhere. Have you had those conversations previously? If you have how did they go? Were you listened to or did it go badly?". In some respects yes if we go along with the silent treatment when we actually want communication I believe we are playing the game. You can reach out and if they choose to continue the silent treatment, hey you just leave that with them. If they can't handle their emotions and can't deal with the boundary you put in place, that's on them, you reach out like you want to but then you let them know when they are less busy you can catch up. You don't need to take that silent treatment personally, it's not about you, it's about them.
Sheppane, it sounds like your therapist is assuming that you were applying "silent treatment". But you were not. Check through the Toolbox here on site for the difference between silent treatment and no contact/medium chill/gray rock.
I personally don't think it is our job to try to educate the dysfunctional family system. We don't need to do anything. We get to take good care of ourselves first, which definitely can include letting things go and walking away.
For myself, I can't get wrapped up in trying to perform "authenticity" a certain way.
I never want to get between a person and a therapist, so take this all with a large grain of salt. Personally, I think you did fine.
Thank you Hilltop. That's so helpful. Yes I think it would have been playing games for me to ask for pictures when infact I was triggered and angry and hurt I guess at watching the way it was playing out. So I guess not asking for them was authentic as otherwise I would have been pretending I wanted to see them when infact by that point I was feeling angry and thinking - just let this go. But my T really disagrees with that point.
I really like the way you put it about shades of gray.
Calling it out in a reactive way is what my T was suggesting as in " hey what's going on why is no one sending me pictures ". I suppose it depends how authentic or reactive that seems to a person. My T thinks that is very authentic and genuinely communicating as in I am now flushing out how they have chosen to behave. And if that causes further fury...respond to that authentically too. I have to say I am wary of doing anything like that because it sounds like a response to the ( absent ) bait. I figured it was their decision, not mine, to withhold. Plus I'm not sure I can give so much of my thinking time and life energy to this all the time. That kind of exchange has me recovering from it for days, sometimes weeks.
I'm also on the fence with you about calling out the ST. In my FOO in the past anything like that causes huge responses. But it's interesting that point about how going along with the ST is playing the game too.
In the past what I have done has been either just made a decision to let it go and make contact for one reason or another, not making reference to it. My T believes that is inauthentic - probably true- because the reality is the behaviour hurts me but I say nothing about it and carry on as normal.
I find it all very confusing 😕
It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely. So I think you can let yourself off the hook for that. :)
Having said that, if you would like to see photos of the event you missed, saying something like "I hope the event went well, were there any photos?" is reasonable. Just keep your expectations low that you'll get a reasonable response.
Quote from: serenitycalm on January 12, 2022, 07:46:20 AM
We get to take good care of ourselves first, which definitely can include letting things go and walking away.
For myself, I can't get wrapped up in trying to perform "authenticity" a certain way.
I think that was what I was thinking - it's ok to take care of myself First , right? Even if that means walking away sometimes. Sometimes hanging on and communicating more authentically/ honestly just puts us in harms way I think. That's not to say there is no value in authentic communication of itself, just that in some families it stirs the pot and throws kerosene on the fire and we could end up being further harmed despite our best intentions to be " authentic ". Authentic...at all costs ? Sometimes silence might actually be better ...for everyone ?
it's nice to think it would be possible to be authentic all of the time but yeah I don't know .
Quote from: IsleOfSong on January 12, 2022, 11:20:23 AM
It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely.
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You put it really well there isle of song. Maybe what I'm getting at now is ..
authenticity and integrity is really important and valuable in a relationship. However , sometimes it comes at a cost ie further FOG and punishment . So it's ok to decide here's a moment I will speak my truth authentically...or ....here's a moment I choose to just observe what happened and let it pass, without stepping into it. At the one end is compliance, at the other end is calling it out. Maybe neither is " right" or " wrong " all of the time as there may be lots of other reasons on a particular day where a person doesn't have the energy to take on that big fight , right?
I know there is nearly or always our part to look at to in terms of the things we do to co create the dynamic- but it's also not always 50/50, in my view anyway.
Quote from: Sheppane on January 12, 2022, 03:15:36 PM
authenticity and integrity is really important and valuable in a relationship. However , sometimes it comes at a cost ie further FOG and punishment . So it's ok to decide here's a moment I will speak my truth authentically...or ....here's a moment I choose to just observe what happened and let it pass, without stepping into it. At the one end is compliance, at the other end is calling it out. Maybe neither is " right" or " wrong " all of the time as there may be lots of other reasons on a particular day where a person doesn't have the energy to take on that big fight , right?
I know there is nearly or always our part to look at to in terms of the things we do to co create the dynamic- but it's also not always 50/50, in my view anyway.
I'd say you can think of it this way: In situations like this, your awareness
IS your authenticity.
And for the record, there is no exactly "right" way to handle anything. So do your best, stay aware, and try not to get tripped up by the bad behavior of others. And don't let them get you to beat yourself up over any of this stuff!
Hey Sheppane, I think going along with the silent treatment as playing the game would be if you wanted to reach out and find out how the event went but thought to yourself, I won't contact them because they are ignoring me so I'll ignore them too. However you aren't doing that. You said your initial reaction was that you were triggered and hurt and don't want to reach out because you want to protect yourself and give yourself space from that hurtful behaviour. I would believe this is being authentic to yourself. I mean your therapist is just using fancy words but to me being authentic is doing something which you believe in, which corresponds with your values, which is good and right for you. As you say it takes days or weeks to recover and so you are protecting yourself from that. In this case you are not engaging in the silent treatment but doing self care.
I get that your therapist wants you to communicate and I suppose I find it interesting because if you are the scapegoat, most of us have had those conversations. I have brought things up without emotion and of course there is a smear campaign or gaslighting and it doesn't really help. I mean you can shut things down to a certain extent but to me, constantly calling out their drama is just keeping that drama continuing. I don't know if you have seen the drama triangle but it's interesting how we get caught up in the roles. Unless the PD gets help, they are unlikely to change, they will continue that behaviour, so calling it out and adding to the drama to me just keeps me in that drama. I guess after a while we learn to simple walk away from most of it because nothing has changed and without them getting help it's unlikely to change. If we continued to call out everything they did, like you said, that is a lot of time recovering from emotional slights and upsets, not to mention that the relationship would be a continual roller coaster.
I think in normal more functional families then calling out this sort of behaviour yeah it would help but in a dysfunctional family system that thrives on drama, upset, scapegoating, I just feel that constantly calling out the behaviour is staying engaged in the dysfunction. I guess for me getting to an authentic place is not so much engaging with my family but learning to let go of my expectations and not take it personally and to leave that dysfunction with them, where I can look at it and see it for what it is, know it is about them and not let it affect me emotionally.
As you say in reality the behaviour hurts you, however when you call out the behaviour my concern is that as you say in the past it has led to huge responses. So I am not sure what that is but if your family then go on to gaslight you or blame you or criticise you for speaking up, then after the initial hurt, there is more hurt. Then you speak up about that, then they gaslight you, blame you, smear you, then you are hurt about that. That's why in removing yourself, you are protecting yourself from further hurt. Yes the initial silent treatment is hurtful and being aware of that, working on your healing so that you expect less from your family and place it back on your family rather than taking it onboard may help.
And I also don't believe there is a 'right' way or 'wrong' way to handle these situations. One day as you say you may be feeling ok and want to reach out and on another day you may simply have too much going on and don't want to expend the energy on dealing with it. Let's face it, it doesn't have to be a fight does it, if you don't want to live fighting the big fight with other people, then you can choose that, isn't that being true to yourself as well. You do not have to get into the fight or the dynamic or engage.
You reflected on this event and stated that your gut feelings were that calling out these sorts of dynamics poke the bear and leave you vulnerable. You had awareness of your choices, and based on past experiences, made an informed decision on how to respond so you would remain protected. That seems very authentic to me. I believe nothing is more real than following our instincts. From my own perspective, I think you did just fine.
This is a dilemma many of us face.
Maybe the reaction comes in phases. We learn not to feed the narcissistic supply by staying calm and not reacting using medium chill and grey rock. Then the next stage is talking about how we feel and expressing our feelings in a calm way and if goaded to not JADE justify, argue, defend or explain.
We can get so used to letting things go and letting things be that we don't always say how upset we have become. Learning to express our feelings in a calm way can be difficult because we are not used to it. We may not even know what our feelings are as they have been buried for so long because we dare not say anything back.
Fear is a way abusers try to control targets of abuse. They think they have the power and entitlement to do that.
Building your self esteem and expressing your feelings is a way to over come your fear. Little by little it can be done.
You have the right to your feelings and the right to express them in a calm way. They are yours and no one else's.
I know it's not easy but it can be done and is empowering. Take small steps.
I agree with IsleofSong that there's no right way to handle a lot of these types of interactions w PDs.
In this scenario I'd consider that it's possible that they are hurt you didn't attend. It's possible they think you're not interested in how it all went and/or don't want pics.
I would reach out asking how everything went and for pics (per the usual routine). Then base my response to their behavior from that point.
I must add that I try to give the other party the option to show who they are in any given situation. Then I know I'm not being a mind reader (impossible), but rather I'm basing my response on their actual behavior and words. I feel that is acting authentically and not jumping to conclusions. Even the disordered can have their misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I hope that helps and makes sense.
Sheppane, I have a pretty strong point of view on this one. Hopefully I'm not too blunt, just trying to make a point here.
I believe your T is wrong and that you are right.
You are trying to create good boundaries. As you say, that entails not being responsible for how others behave. It also, in my opinion, means not making assumptions.
You don't know that photos were taken at the event. Yes, they probably were. We all know that. But it is best to come from a point of view of not assuming anything.
You don't know for sure why they are now silent. Yes they are probably punishing you. We all know that. But it's best to come from a point of view of not assuming anything.
Stay clean, stay "innocent". Keep your side of the street clean. Take things that they say literally. No assumptions, no reading into anything.
There will be plenty of opportunities to call them out on things that are very clearly wrong. When they give a left-handed compliment, you can say "oh I'm not sure what you mean by that. Please explain". You can call them out on their name-calling or their rages or their broken promises.
But they did not promise to take photos and send them to you. There is no broken promise.
I would be really surprised if calling them out on anything will change them. But maybe it's good for you to do in order to be true to yourself. Please just chose carefully what you call them out on. It can't be something that is not clearly "abusive". There are plenty of reasons why a non-PD person might not send photos of an event if they did not promise to do that. There are plenty of reasons people become silent. There is a LOT of plausible deniability in this particular situation.
I think the most powerful "call-outs" are done in-the-moment. In real time. Not after time has passed.
You are right. Your instinct is correct.
You rock!
:bighug:
The thing is, you need different tactics when calling out and asserting boundaries with PD people.
For instance, the standard method of telling someone that they've hurt your feelings works wonderfully with a nice, healthy, normal person.
Early on in my therapy journey,I had tried to tell my mother that she hurt my feelings, she narrowed her eyes and said 'JollyJazz* I don't give a s@#+! about your feelings' (note: I was never allowed to swear but she was).
So yes, we can react well to bad behavior, but in a smart, PD specific way. There are lots of good tips in the toolbox for keeping ourselves safe, like grey rocking, the squeaky wheel technique, minimal contact, etc.
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1/
Hope this helps! :)
Serenitycalm, apologies I missed your reply yesterday when I posted mine!
thank you for the reminder of the difference between "joining in" the ST and taking care of myself and choosing not to engage.
So many helpful and interesting replies here.
I'm thinking as a few of you have pointed out that choosing not to engage is not the same thing - even if it " looks" the same it is the motivation behind it which matters. I guess asking for pictures of a vacation or whatever event - even if I'm pretty sure they are being deliberately withheld- is fine if I genuinely want to see them - but not so fine if using it as an excuse to reconnect and break the tension, which is the "game ".
I think what I was feeling was angry and hurt and I wanted not to step into this any further, so I just saw what was happening and chose to let it go. That felt right. So it's really the motivation behind it.
option 1) feel hurt and angry, observe what's happening, don't step in any further
option 2) feel hurt and angry but also genuinely wish to see pictures of the vacation/ event so put aside my feelings and ask to see them in non reactive way . ( That looks slightly inauthentic to me as if I am triggered and angry in honesty I probably am not going to want to see the pictures )
option 3) observe they haven't been sent - and call it out ( T suggestion) .
As some of you have said there is not necessarily a right answer here.
Hilltop you said " get that your therapist wants you to communicate and I suppose I find it interesting because if you are the scapegoat, most of us have had those conversations. I have brought things up without emotion and of course there is a smear campaign or gaslighting and it doesn't really help. " :yeahthat:
That's my fear really. I don't want to br engaged in a battle all the time. The authenticity might be more about acceptance and letting go, maybe? I used to have a mantra of " I don't have to pick up the gauntlet ".
Guitarman you said "We learn not to feed the narcissistic supply by staying calm and not reacting using medium chill and grey rock. Then the next stage is talking about how we feel and expressing our feelings in a calm way and if goaded to not JADE justify, argue, defend or explain.
We can get so used to letting things go and letting things be that we don't always say how upset we have become. Learning to express our feelings in a calm way can be difficult because we are not used to it. We may not even know what our feelings are as they have been buried for so long because we dare not say anything back.".
That's so true. Maybe that's where I'm at. Better at detaching and believing my own feelings to be valid ( and noticing them rather than burying them ), but not yet knowing how or when to express them in a calm way. And maybe this might be the next stage of work for me ?
My experience with this in the past is that in an already hostile situation , my calmness triggers FOO. I have been told I was " too calm " , as my reactivity has not matched others, and it has invited rage. On one occasion I was jeered and mocked for being calm, so in a way I think that memory has stayed with me and made me fearful of attempting it again. But I like the idea of building the self esteem to overcome that fear. And of course if again and again the same thing happens when I express myself calmly and truthfully , well then I think that's back to not engaging to keep myself safe.
Bunnie this is very helpful too " I must add that I try to give the other party the option to show who they are in any given situation. Then I know I'm not being a mind reader (impossible), but rather I'm basing my response on their actual behavior and words. I feel that is acting authentically and not jumping to conclusions. Even the disordered can have their misunderstandings and hurt feelings."
I find it very tricky when I consider the others feelings hurt - as in the past I overapologised, always felt huge guikt when there was none to be felt so the tiniest bit of considering I might have hurt their feelings I find difficult to navigate. That old part of me wants yo jump in " fix" and apologise - whether I'm in the wrong or not. And then FOO frequently feel " hurt" because they perceive I never do enough. Even when even I can objectively see that's not true. But it's a slippery slope into self doubt, people pleasing and guilt for me. So it's very helpful what you said about giving people a chance to show who they are. With PA communication in my FOO that can be difficult to pull out I find. Because no one ever says what they are feeling.
Lemonlime also said similar about not making assumptions . It really does make things much simpler. I set a boundary. And part of that involves not attaching to the outcomes of it or what others think of it - whether they like it of not - and not getting stuck in ruminating about what they "might" be thinking. Its the problem with this more covert sort of communication- ST I guess maybe isn't always ST ( though my gut tells me I'm not imagining it). And yet unless someone comes out and says something outloud how do i possibly know what anyone else is thinking?
I agree calling people out on easily deniable things may just not be smart. As you said maybe I should reserve my calling out for things in the moment that I am certain about. That might be a better place to start.
My T also suggested I should apologise to FOO for not having suggested an alternative time to meet. Not an apology for setting the boundary but that they might feel hurt that I did not come up with an alternative suggestion. My reasoning for that also was at the time I wanted to keep it simple, explain why we couldn't come and leave it at that. I felt that suggesting alternatives when I didn't even know when they would likely be was just going to overcomplicate things and muddy the waters . I did say we were sorry we could not see them but T feels that wasn't enough. I'm really uncertain about that part too . I thought I had done well setting the boundary and certainly didn't communicate it in anything other than a calm factual way and I wanted a definite end to it rather than a whole other argument about alternative plans and how they would work..
I thought it was OK.
Anyone any thoughts on that?
I think it will take me more time to digest all of this.
Thank you for all your support. :) :)
From my own edge of a similar cliff - I'm working harder at treating others as I'd like to be treated, flip the scenario and consider what might bridge a possible gap.
Me? I'd have asked If they took any pics while at event, ask how things went. Show interest and let them respond accordingly. I'd overlook any snarky comments as not worthy of response. It's always possible they didn't get pictures or at least any good ones, it happens. Some events/venues now ask that people put phones away and enjoy the moment.
I'm rethinking my tendency to assume. It may feel awkward but I'd rather bail off in it than sit back and wonder. How they choose to respond isn't my/your stuff, neither to accept nor fix. Thats on them. AND you don't have to apologize for being unavailable, that's going to happen with any of us and you know what? The event goes forward anyway.
I'm on my umpteenth re-read of The Four Agreements and I highly recommend it. Learning/relearning to not take things personally and don't make assumptions ... We need moreof that!
Sheppane, again I do not agree with your T.
I do not believe you should apologize to your FOO. That just seems over-the-top to me and sort of pandering, if that is the right word.
I do believe in apologizing when we are wrong. But this wasn't "wrong". And most disordered FOO take an apology as a chance to turn it around to "See, Sheppane has apologized for being a monster all her life. We're right and she's wrong".
With my disordered sib I am very quick to apologize for wrongdoings, right in the moment if I can. And I say specifically what I'm apologizing for. "I'm sorry I didn't say goodbye to you, I thought you were still asleep. I found out later you were not asleep. I should have checked with your husband to see if you were or were not asleep. I'm sorry."
It gives her less room to blast me. Though of course she still does. In fact, the more responsible I am about my own actions, the more I think it angers her because it provides a foil to how irresponsible she is. Can't win.
Anyway, my two cents.
Quote from: moglow on January 13, 2022, 01:47:52 PM
From my own edge of a similar cliff - I'm working harder at treating others as I'd like to be treated, flip the scenario and consider what might bridge a possible gap.
Yes. Thank you Moglow. Its so simple but a really good reminder. I have never read the 4 agreements so I will look into that.
A combination of authenticity, integrity, keeping my side clean, acceptance, a balance of compassion and understanding for those in FOO who are still in FOG while also ensuring I don't in the process abandon myself is what I'm seeking. :)
Hi Sheppane :wave:
I agree with IsleofSong: "It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely. So I think you can let yourself off the hook for that. "
:yeahthat:
I'll speak only to my own npd-enmeshed mom and nsis actions and nonactions in regards to me, designated SG "dutiful daughter" primary target of their often overtly bad behavior, including shunning and intentional exclusion. Their bad behaviors were quite intentional, their casual slights intended to hurt and convey their power to do so, and that disordered messaging was received as so. I long recognized this wasn't normal family dynamics. Took me until my mid-50s to remove myself from that toxicity. Can't fix them. Can remove myself as target, remove my "bullseye presence" that enabled to do so - with zero regrets.
Hey Sheppane, I don't think I agree with your therapist about you needing to have an alternative time to visit. If you can't make it, you can't make it and healthy people understand that. I think what you did and said was fine.
I think the assumption part speaks a lot of truths for me as well. I guess we get used to having things go wrong that we forget that sometimes the PD people in our life won't actually be setting out to do anything, its just that we get triggered so easily sometimes. Yes when our gut tells us that something is off then 90% of the time, it is, sometimes however there are 10% of the time when we'll be wrong. Let's face it we aren't going to get it right 100% of the time. I don't say this to make you doubt yourself, I say this because as others have suggested when something like the silent treatment happens, you could start from a place of accepting it on face value. Maybe they are busy, maybe they didn't think you'd want photo's, maybe they thought someone else would send them, maybe they are busy and will send them later etc. There could be a genuine reason that you haven't heard from anyone. So not assuming anything and moving forward with what you want to do in the moment, which may be contact and see how it went or get on with your day and contact them later in the week because you feel triggered and you feel it's more important to work on that first is what I would consider to be not assuming. It's hard not to mind read but it gives more peace of mind when we don't. I mean you may reach out and not hear anything in which case you understand it is the silent treatment or you may receive a message back with photo's and a warm message and realise that meh they were just busy. People do have busy lives and can get distracted, I do think it's important to realise this and understand we may not be a focal point for them at that particular time.
The other thing that comes to mind when I read your post is overt and covert behaviour. I think your therapist seems to be saying something much like what Guitarman is saying in that speaking up for yourself can give you more empowerment, I completely agree with this. However as Lemonlime suggested the type of behaviour you speak up about is really important. I personally find the silent treatment to be covert behaviour and covert behaviour is really hard to define or speak about because it is so easy to deny. I think your therapist wording on saying 'hey why are you not sending me photo's' is kind of accusatory. Calling them out for the silent treatment can then lead to them denying it, 'no we're not doing that, we are just busy', 'you are so difficult, why would you say that'. What can you say back to that, they could have just been busy, you don't really know. I think of the drama triangle where you start as the victim and them as the perpetrator and now as they simply say they are busy and why are you being so judgemental or difficult or accusing them well now they are the victim and you are the perpetrator in their minds.
The SG role works by the family offloading their negative emotions or hurt or anger onto one person. When they invited you and you couldn't make it, perhaps your family were angry or hurt by that. By doing the silent treatment, it's punishment but when you react and say something they can then turn around and gas light and deny, tell you you are being difficult and suddenly you are the problem. They see that you are upset and hurt. They draw closer together and support each other and talk about you and how it's your problem. They have then shifted those negative emotions off themselves and onto you. You are left feeling hurt whilst they feel supported by each other, essentially they have shifted their negative emotions to you and bam the SG role has been done. Now think about how you went from not being in the wrong at all, you simply didn't attend an event and placed a normal boundary in place to suddenly being the person in the wrong. Now you are upset and hurt. I think this is how the SG role continues to be played out. This is the reason I don't agree with your therapist and the language she is using or calling out covert behaviour. I feel it keeps you in those family dynamics.
Now consider that they really were busy and you are now asking them why they haven't sent anything and then it becomes a thing where are you believing them when they say they are busy or are you calling them out. How does calling them out for the silent treatment reflect on you if they were genuinely busy?
Overt behaviour is different in that you know that raging or insults are not acceptable. Something obvious has happened and if called out in the moment that can be very empowering. I mean even if they deny it by saying it was a joke or you are sensitive, inside you know that yelling at people or insulting them is not right, so it's easy to not take in their gaslighting.
If I think about not assuming bad intentions, building up our self esteem and calling out behaviour that are overt whilst using other techniques such as MC with covert behaviours I think this is where we can get out of the family dynamics. Think about if you simply sent a normal message asking how it went. Whether they are doing the silent treatment or not you take yourself out of the victim role in the drama triangle because you are coming from a position of strength within yourself. As for the scapegoat role the family needs you to engage, if you don't then I feel you also take yourself out of that role as well. How can they transfer those negative emotions to you if you aren't engaged. As they continue to do the silent treatment you are busy getting on with life, understanding it's them and you contact them when you feel like it. They cannot transfer those negative emotions and it's left with them. They can't blame you or tell you you are difficult as what have you done, nothing, you are busy doing your own thing or you have sent a normal caring message checking in with them. By doing this, there is no fight with them and hence you are not in the SG role.
I suppose I don't think it's just one thing of do I speak up or not. I feel like there are a lot of undercurrents, history, family dynamics which need to be considered. I really don't think you need to apologise for not suggesting an alterative time to visit. This seems to be putting you in a place of acknowledging that you have done something wrong, when you haven't. Just because they are upset you couldn't make it, that's their emotions which you are not responsible for. Normal healthy people cannot make events it's not a big deal. You really have done nothing wrong and I really don't feel like you need to apologise for them being upset. I honestly think you handled it fine, you said you couldn't make it and said have a nice time. There is nothing wrong with that, it's how a emotionally healthy person declines an invitation. I'm sorry for the huge rambling. I guess I have these family dynamics in my own family and this is how I am coming to see. Currently my mother is not contacting me and I am leaving it as she is busy and I'm contacting her when I feel like it otherwise I am taking the thought that if she has a problem, she is an adult and can talk to me otherwise I am assuming all is fine. Otherwise if I were to speak up I fear I would then be back in that SG role.
I am also trying to work on self esteem and building myself back up because I really feel that is the key. Good luck Sheppane I hope it resolves soon.
Of course you being calm provoked an attack. That's because you didn't feed their narcissistic supply that they craved. They provoked you even more so that you would behave in a way that they are so used to. It's what's my uBPD/NPD sister did as well when I changed my behaviour and remained calm. I didn't participate in her game where she set all the rules. She didn't like the change in the power dynamics. I was taking charge and not reacting to being baited.
My sister thinks she knows exactly how to push all my buttons to get a reaction. She can become so cruel and say the most outrageous things shouting and screaming to get any reaction. It's all quite pathetic and sad really.
You need to keep yourself safe. Whatever you are comfortable with is your priority. It's not easy to change years of controlling behaviour and to do things differently. I know. Little by little things can change.
Our safety and well being is our priority. We need to look after ourselves first. It's OK to do that. It really is. That's what I'm learning after decades of abuse.
I also had the same reaction when I remained calm in response to baiting by my parents. They would insult and I was grey rocking and using MC techniques. They kept upping their insults, using really mocking behaviour to get that reaction.
Being calm does not play into their dynamics. My experience has been that if I remain calm they bait more, they act out more because they are after that reaction or that response, to see that their hurtful behaviour did in fact hurt.
Really appreciate all the responses I don't have time right now to respond to them all individually.
Im sorry to hear so many others are familiar with this dynamic but the validation helps.
I'm thinking of making up a set of "rules" to follow in future. No assumptions. Deal with what's infront only. Ask for clarity if needed, dont assume anything if the facts aren't clear. Take everything at face value, but if a pattern which is so familiar rearises and feels off, it probably is. Calling out if appropriate, but dependant on each and every situation. In the moment, not after. No self guilting or accepting the SG transfer. Be aware of the difference between " playing the game " and protecting myself. Two different things which mainly depend on the motivation behind them. Authenticity is being true to myself first. If It feels OK- do it. If It feels off - don't. Give myself ( and others) a break sometimes. Don't hold myself ( or others) to standards of perfection in communication. If I owe an amend, make it as soon as possible. If I'm not sure, I can wait Beware of making amends to " fix" and ease the tension. If it's not genuine, don't do it.
There's more I could add based on all the great advice in this thread..
:yeahthat:
:yourock:
:chickendance: :banana: :righton: :elephant: :drinks: :party: :yahoo:
In my mind, if things have broken down so much that you don't have a sense of trust that you can politely decline an invite, then its a sign of much deeper problems than would be remedied by offering them an alternate date, or asking for photos. Those things are not going to fix these deeper problems.
I mean, we're talking about something as simple as not attending a function. In a healthy relationship, the response is "We're so sorry to hear that, we'll miss you" or "Oh, we had looked forward to seeing you, hope to catch up soon." And then you could say "yes, me too, and we'd love to see some photos from the event if you have a chance to send them. best wishes" No harm, no foul.
Sheppane, your remarks about the tendency to over apologize, the guilt, and the jumping in to fix things are very familiar to me. The weight of it all is just way too much most of the time. To our detriment, the PDs in our life rarely show us that same consideration. Why is it they never apologize (forget over apologize), experience guilt at their manipulation and lies. They are never interested in fixing things when we're hurt. I totally understand where you're coming from. Sometimes we just have to say "so what?" to the little voices of guilt and blame. We've heard it all before, and no matter how hard we try, things never get better. I believe that, too, is being authentic.
thanks guitarman for the jolly band cheering me on :) :) :)
Jennifersmith thanks for the validation . you are right it is the sign of deeper problems , none of which I can "fix". It's so true I think that comparison with what would a normal healthy response look like ....it's the one thing I find that is sometimes so easy to see in reference to someone else but not me...and so helpful to see how far apart those different responses might be.
I tried doing that this wk. What would a healthy response have looked like ? It does a lot to ease my feelings of guilt . Right now I am struggling with my Ts comments and trying to figure out if I need to apologise...if pride is getting in my way ( because I don't feel I do need to) ie is my T right and I'm wrong
And I'm beginning to think I'm just afraid of being judged by my T if I don't, and also the fear of having done " the wrong thing " and being less than, not enough, and all those ensuing thought patterns...
Sheppane, this might be an opportunity. An opportunity to "out yourself" with your T. Let her know that you're struggling with the apology issue. That you don't feel you owe your FOO an apology, but that you're afraid of being judged by T.
I always "out" myself as a people-pleaser to my T's. I tell them that my tendency is to try to please them, and to make them like me. And that I try very hard to show people that I'm smart. And then I give the T "orders" to catch me on that and call me on it. I give them total permission and encouragement to catch me doing that. To challenge me.... "Lemon Lime, are taking my advice because you think it's right, or because you want me to like you?" would be an example of calling me out.
I require quite a strong T. I need one who is not squeamish. I need one who is not a people-pleaser themselves. I am not paying them big bucks so we can be best friends. And I am a strong woman who wants challenging therapy.
You can guess that I do have a very hard time finding a T.
That's just me. I do find that T's often need some direction. Kind of like telling a massage therapist that you want deep tissue massage, not superficial!
Hope that helps a little.
Sheppane, this might be a good time for you to familiarize yourself with Bill Eddy and his BIFF communication technique. BIFF stands for "brief, informative, friendly, and firm." You could even use BIFF on your family AND your T, if it comes to that. :)
YouTube is a good place to get familiar with Eddy's terrific work.
Hey Sheppane what exactly does your therapist want you to apologise for.
It was an event. You don't have a say in when that happens. If it was coffee, yeah you could have said I can't do Monday how about Wednesday. However I don't think you can ask someone to change details of a party or event. You can either make it or you can't.
Would you ask a friend to change the time of their birthday party to suit you? I can't say I would.
Is your therapist asking you to apologise for upsetting them. Their feelings aren't your responsibility. Have they said to you that they are upset?
I find some of the stuff in the toolbox really helpful for reminding myself about the pitfalls I can fall into, especially when the guilt sets in.
Quote from: bunnie on January 15, 2022, 06:42:14 PMSometimes we just have to say "so what?" to the little voices of guilt and blame. We've heard it all before, and no matter how hard we try, things never get better. I believe that, too, is being authentic.
I think thats it. I feel " guilted" by my T and also confused with the mixed messages from them. Alot of the work I had been doing was around feeling appropriate anger( which I suppress) , and learning to clearly communicate and step away if needed. I thought I had done that well. But they're suggestion to apologise for not sounding like I cared that I would miss the event just feels off. I now feel blamed, judged and very confused.
Quote from: Hilltop on January 16, 2022, 07:41:37 PM
Is your therapist asking you to apologise for upsetting them. Their feelings aren't your responsibility. Have they said to you that they are upset?
Exactly. That's what they have said that the manner I communicated that we could not attend may have upset them. I take the point about others feelings not being my responsibility but if it is true that I was careless / insensitive and they felt hurt as a result is that not my responsibility? I mean I have apologised to folks in the past if it's clear that they way I said something upset them- or even if it was a simple misunderstanding I would clarify and apologise if necessary explaining that wasn't my intention. So I think sometimes I am responsible if I hurt someone's feelings, even if unintentional?
I suppose the difference is whether the act or omission has caused harm. In a straightforward situation where its clear I've caused harm I am quite happy to clear up my side of the street and apologise. I don't apologise where I'm being manipulated into not having done " enough" for example , because that bar always jumps higher. Here , I don't even have clarity as to whether anyone is hurt or harmed by me - particularly as they have not communicated it. I think if someone had told me they were upset, explaining why, it would give me the opportunity to reflect upon it and see whether I was at fault. That would give me clarity. So yes my therapist is asking me to apologise when we don't know anyone is upset..other than the fact that no one has contacted me since.
What's particularly difficult is my therapist pointed out that we all have blind spots, and maybe I just can't see it. So there is that part of me thinking maybe she is right and pride is getting in my way. But as someone who over apologises that would definitely be unusual for me - I am normally super fast to apologise if I've done something wrong, in part because I find it very hard to tolerate feelings of guilt and conflict. But this just isn't sitting right which makes me wonder that maybe I need to trust myself more and consider that a) they might be wrong b) who knows, really
Apologising for at best a very subtle miscommunication, the only fault having been it was not very effusive , when no one has said it upset them....feels off. The possibly bigger issue here is that it is showing me how much power I hand to my T.
thank you isleofsong for the recommendation of BIFF I will take a look :)
Sheppane, I can't help but jump in here again. My strong opinion:
You are right. Your T is wrong on this one.
I can relate so much to your story. I'm an over-apologizer. My uPD sib takes advantage of that. "LemonLime, you didn't do as many dishes as I did last night, and I am so HURT and feel so DISRESPECTED and you are ENTITLED and treat me like your personal servant and always have!!" she shrieked, red-faced with bloodshot eyes, sweating like a pig, in a complete rage. The dishes were her only complaint.
I did not apologize. Normally I probably would have, to keep peace and because it is a reflex for me. But I had been meditating and doing other work on myself, so I was able to suppress the reflex. I am so glad I didn't apologize for her perception that I didn't do as many dishes. Do I have videotape and an Excel spreadsheet proving how many dishes I did during the vacation versus how many she did? Nope. But normal people do not have a total meltdown over an unprovable perception, and they give the people they know and trust the benefit of the doubt, and at least check in with them with a sense of curiosity before completely losing their "stuff" over something like dishwashing.
Your T is wrong. And I do wonder if she really "gets" what a PD is. I find it very concerning that she is suggesting you apologize in this instance. As others have said, apologize for what? You are trying to learn and practice boundaries, and it seems to me you have a better understanding of boundaries than she does. The last thing you need now is someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of healthy boundaries to be guilting you. She should be congratulating you, not questioning your choice. To me you handled the situation perfectly. Perfectly!
I too am working on these exact sticky boundary issues. My sib wants to be able to twist ANY situation into one where she has been "hurt". Well, she truly is able to twist any situation into one where she is aggrieved, but that does not mean that I did anything wrong. It seems to always boil down to "was I rude or not?". Well, rude is subjective most of the time. What offends one person doesn't offend another person. PD's are experts in getting offended. I believe it's one of their tools for manipulating others, especially empaths like us. It's sort of a magic card to pull.....claim to feel hurt and disrespected, and others will fawn and apologize and give the PD all the attention and the PD can play Victim, which is their favorite role in life.
Forgive my bluntness, and take it or leave it, but if this were me I would fire this T. She would be doing exactly the opposite of what I am paying her to do. For me, she would be dangerous because she would have me confused and not moving toward my goals of better boundaries. It feels to me that her boundaries for herself are not clear and healthy. I am now very sensitive to T's that don't seem to "get it", even if they claim they do. In fact I went to a T specifically because she "works extensively with BPDs and runs DBT groups". I fired her after the first session when she suggested that I take my uPDsib up on her offer to "let's go get coffee alone sometime LemonLime and let's talk about how mom and dad treated you so much better than they treated me when we were kids". This after she raged at me about the dishes, insulted my parenting and then refused to apologize. It was obvious that during this "talk" sib was going to try to distract me, to deflect blame from herself and to avoid taking responsibility for what she had done. She was going to try gaslighting, projection, blaming, victimization of herself. That was so obvious to me. And she specifically wanted to do it privately, not in a public place. Hmmmm....
But the T said something like "I think you should give your sib a chance to talk with you, and I don't see why you are afraid of that". OMG. Sib was trying to get me ALONE so there would be no witnesses when she gaslighted me and perhaps raged again at me. Not being alone with a PD is "PD 101". We all know that, but this T didn't.
FWIW. I've found it very difficult to find a T that understands and doesn't do more harm than good. So far the best I've found is T's that do no harm but don't help much.
Obviously you know whether this T is helping or not. Just want to let you know my impression of what she has been saying to you about this subject, which is such an important subject.
Please don't doubt yourself Sheppane. Listening to your instincts and gut is exactly what you are trying to learn to do. Exactly.
Bravo on your response to your FOO. Bravo!
I agree with LemonLime completely!
Here's another 2 cents from me: If you're concerned about finding a therapist who "gets" PDs and how to handle them, you may want to look into working with a coach who works with victims of narcissistic abuse. I have been working with a coach for about 8 months who specializes in handling bullies, believe it or not, and it's done wonders for me. I still have a long way to go, as I too am an inveterate people pleaser due to my own deep FOO issues, but I'm making measurable progress and am glad I'm on this path. Eggshells be damned!
Sheppane I don't agree with your therapist.
I don't believe you have anything to apologise for. You said you couldn't make the event and have a nice time. Nothing wrong with this at all. Absolutely nothing wrong.
The part about the blind spot is worrying to me. You feel right about how you handled yourself but your therapist is confusing you.
Your gut is correct. If you usually apologise and this time you don't know what for then trust yourself. So far I think you should be giving yourself a high five, you've done great.
There is nothing in the language you have written here that warrants an apology.
IsleofSong, Thanks for sharing Bill Eddy's info. Very helpful :thumbup:
thanks for all the replies. I have had time to think and it's been good to be able to see what's my part and what's not. And leave the confusion be confusion ...until/ if I change my mind.
I was very triggered by my T and I think learning to trust my own response helps. As an overapologiser I generally know when I have done something wrong. But hey I'm not perfect either !
Just to shake it up sister no.2 called to say how sister no 1 is having such a hard time. I listened. She is aware that I do not hear from her so do not know the details of her ups and downs at the moment. We are VLC..only just because I stopped fawning. So she then adds that at least sisterno1 has her ( no.2) and great friends, too. People who acknowledge her pain, she said. I agreed, it is good she has that support. Resisted the bait/ invitation to caretake. :stars:
thanks everyone for your helpful comments