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Dealing with PD Parents / Re: Family in a bubble
« Last post by Amadahy on Today at 09:45:41 AM »
Hi, sc204! Congratulations on your wedding! 

If someone other than your parents acted like your parents did at your wedding, you’d be appalled! And you’d be right! We give our parents SO many chances....and it is because you are loving and caring, not those vile things your mom spewed.

Enjoy your family of choice, friends and the beautiful life you’ve created. You deserve it!

The answer for, "You don't mind, do you?" or, "You don't mind  not drinking" - a statement of FACT are the same:  "Yes I DO mind..." - and to go about your  business.  If it includes drinking and you don't want to drive, call a cab for him - or better still *don't have him over at all, after the stunt he pulled, peeing in our car!*

"You don't mind going  to the store, do you?"

"Yes, I do, and it's time you had your groceries delivered."   :ninja:

"You don't mind taking me to the doctor, do you?"

"Yes, actually I'm very busy.  Call a taxi or brother.  I can't do it."  :ninja:

"You don't mind driving me all over hell's half acre."

"Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm very busy and you'll need to find your own ride.  I can't do it."  :ninja:

BOUNDARIES are required - and you can't back down, no matter if he pouts, sulks, pulls a face, mopes or plays at being half dead an in immediate need of medical attention.

He does THAT?  Call an ambulance and don't go to the hospital with him.  Stay home instead - you'll just be in the way.  :yes:

Once you start putting up boundaries and letting the dreaded *outsiders* see what you put up with, there's a pretty good chance somebody is going to get a social worker involved - good.  THEY can deal with him while you stay OUT of it - you're busy with work, and have no time for the unwanted 3rd child.  :roll:


Wish I was brave enough to do all that :-(
Dealing with PD Parents / Re: Family in a bubble
« Last post by Spring Butterfly on Today at 08:34:24 AM »
First many congratulations on your wedding and wishing you a very happy future!

Please do go have yourself a very happy life and know and understand you don't need to worry about your parents and their life. They had you, they raised you, and then it was your job to go off and live your life and it was their job to continue living there's as they see fit. Children are supposed to individuate, grow to adulthood and then go off and live their life, that's just how it works. The fact that they did not recognize or prepare themselves for this reality is not your problem, not your stuff. Check the toolbox topic on that your stuff for more info. It helped me.

It sounds like your sister has checked out of the family drama and is content to go live her life separately. As the others have said you don't need her validation even though you're used to having it. Perhaps the possiblity that she has checked out and did what she needed to go back to her safe place in a separate country is validation enough?

It's time for you and your new hubby to go off and build a happy life as you see fit. We only get one life, this is not your practice life. Make it a good one!
Dealing with PD Parents / Re: Nothing to talk about...
« Last post by Spring Butterfly on Today at 08:23:48 AM »
I do agree that keeping topics very neutral and stick to the weather and what’s for dinner works best. However, it makes for  a very boring conversation,  and I can’t last more than 15 minutes.
actually 15 minutes is fine for a phone conversation. How often do you talk?

Within my circle of non PD people phone conversations with people I have regular contact with are nonexistent. We actually spend time together and meeting up is arranged via text. Long-distance friends catch up as news happens in their life either via text or phone call or even just social media messaging in response to a post. There's no set schedule, no routine, no expectation, no set length for a phone conversation if and when it does occur. We talk until we run out of things to say and then the conversation is over however long or short it is. Non PD people don't have rules generally speaking.

Back to your topic though when I was in more frequent contact I actually had to prepare conversation topics ahead of time. My T recommended this in addition to the toolbox here. Finding non controversial common interests was a challenge. Gardening was pretty safe so I would read an article or two from an online blog for gardening in our area.

Another topic was my local news so I look up an article or two about some neutral local happenings, completely boring stuff but it was a topic. Actually the more boring the better - like the local donation center was struggling or the community center was having such and such an event.

The only thing about my life that I shared was funny things the kids in my life or the pets did, my garden, how the grass was growing, etc but other than that my health was fine and everything else was fine.

Eventually though between the fact that every passive aggressive snipe was gently questioned and the conversation wasn't nearly dramatic enough contact is only as often as I reach out to them which isn't very often these days.
Board Information & Questions / Help with resources
« Last post by The best is yet to come on Today at 08:08:00 AM »
I recently told my narcissistic husband it’s over. I Am in need of anyone’s advice and help with what to do and cope. I am have no money , no car , no job. I have 3 young children. I was really left with nothing but that was his plain so I would never leave.  I know it’s just the beginning, I knew it was going to be awful. It wasn’t expecting this.  His whole family is narcissistic and all trying to contact me to try to get us back together? It’s me against all of them .
The Welcome Mat / Re: Newbie with baaaad FLEAS
« Last post by Spring Butterfly on Today at 08:01:45 AM »
Welcome to Out of the FOG and it sounds like you've been through such terrible trauma for so long. It's really good you found your way here and hopefully you find the community here as supportive in your journey as they have been in mind.

Totally different relationship on my and but yes very familiar with fleas. In my case I was raised with them so it took me awhile to even figure it out and then work through it. Being here sure did help.

if you haven't seen the toolbox here's the toolbox topic on fleas. It's at the top of the forum and is one of my favorite resources here.

check out the chosen boards as well for those and similar relationships trying to work through breaking Free of the trauma Bond. It sounds like you've done a good bit of research already and stay strong! You can do this!
Chosen Relationships / Re: Still struggling two years later
« Last post by countrygirl on Today at 07:52:52 AM »
Hi xdamage,

It is perfectly normal to still feel as you do.  It is good that you're working on your recovery with a therapist.  This shows that you value yourself.  Ultimately, how we care about and for ourselves is what will see us through.

I still feel sad about having to end a longterm friendship, one I'd had since I was in my late teens.  But as time passes, it gets easier, and I know it was the only decision, because this person was not going to change, no matter how hard I tried.  Finally, I realized that change wouldn't happen because my friend had no desire to change!

All we can do is work on changing ourselves, and resolve to avoid PD people, as much as possible, in the future.  Almost everyone on here has experienced the pain of interacting with a PD.  We all understand how hard recovery can be.   

And so it starts.... Facebook message from brother (bugger thought I'd blocked him - my fault!), his wife has apparently booked a holiday over xmas so I'll have to have Dad on xmas day.

Probably not true. Many years I've had the "booking holiday" and it never happened. Wouldn't put it past them to pretend their away as well.

Oh well. Dads still not coming but it makes my task harder.
Ah yes...Ray's toilet/bathroom was nearly as bad as, "The Worst Toilet In Scotland" from the movie Trainspotting!   :aaauuugh: :barfy:

That whole "adventure" with the car, cricket and him soiling himself?

That was a *test* to see  what he could get away with.  :stars:

He figured out what you will and won't put up with, but more importantly *he was made to spend his own money on clothes and adult diapers.*  :yes: :thumbup:

I wish you would have stuck him with the rental car bill, too - or any fines for the smell.    :evil2:

Don't *ever* put yourself in a position - or allow yourself to be manipulated into - that kind of situation again.  From now on, NO  BS, and ALL boundaries, all the way.  8-)

I wouldn't take him out in *any* car, ever again, but if you do, he wets himself?  That's it.  He gets OUT, you call him a cab and drive away, leaving him stranded.  :ninja:

That will put a stop to THAT - especially when he has no choice but to pay the cabbie.  :yes:

Good for you for not changing or scrubbing him, too - and no, I wouldn't put up with sitting next to somebody who smells like pee, either.   :P

In my mind, your father has completely *blown it* for ANY trips to anywhere with you - including your house.  As I said before, if he wants to come and you want him there, he can take a cab - and take one home again, too.

Back when Didi was alive, she loved watermelon rind pickles, which I'll explain to you, since you've probably never heard of them, being English and sensible and all.  ;D I don't think they made the transition across the Pond.

Okay - they're a Southern thing, where you pickle watermelon rinds in a super-sweet brine, which has vinegar, a ton of sugar and a bunch of spices.  It's like eating melon candy, IMO - and I don't like them.   :thumbdown:

I'd rather eat the good part of the melon and throw out the rinds, but recipes like this came from an era where you had nothing, so you used everything you had, rind and all.

I live in the Northeast US.  So did Didi - but her hometown was 3 miles to the south and housed  one of the largest Union prison camps, which is now a state penitentiary.  A *lot* of Southern staples are still popular in her hometown, because many Confederate soldiers settled in the area. 

Food and history lesson over.  ;D  Now you know the necessary hows and whys.  :)

Didi was griping that IF she could find them, the pickles were $7 for a tiny jar, which really is ridiculous, with how little it takes to actually make them - and I stupidly agreed to do it, thinking MAYBE I could finally get one thing right and get her approval.  (Yes, I was still in the FOG.)  :'(

For $4 in ingredients, I made her a quart of those pickles - she loved them and even paid me for the ingredients, saying they were *better* than the kind in the tiny jar! :yahoo: :woohoo:

Oh, little did I know I was being set up to be played!   :doh:

The next time I went over, the jar is empty and sitting on the table.  I asked if she wanted more - and that's how she trained me.    :blink:

This time, they were too hard, when I'd done exactly what the recipe said - boiled the rinds for 5 minutes in salted water.  And it took her a week to pay me back.  She kept "forgetting."  :roll:

I didn't hear anything for a while and Didi finally admitted she'd let the pickles go bad, because they hurt her mouth - instead of oh, *boiling them again for another 5  minutes or so!* - or asking ME to do  it!  >:(

She'd let them get moldy - can she get more?  She'll pay me!   :roll:

I boiled them for 10 minutes - nope, still too hard - and no, she didn't pay me.

She ate them all but complained.  I boiled the next batch for 20 minutes - still too hard and still no money - and then she requested more, with the promise to pay.

I said sure and thought about whipping out the pressure cooker - but then said, "She's just going to find something else to complain about, so no.  And I'm never going to be paid for all the other pickles.  She treats it like  she's ordering from a vending machine and I just pop 'em out.  That stops NOW."  :ninja:

So...I stopped making her pickles.  She complained endlessly - she NEEDED them BUT I had to figure out a way to soften them up (I'd TRIED and the pressure cooker was only going to reduce them to mush, which she'd complain about!) - I told her I'd see what I could do, just to shut her up.'s also Medium Chill.  And what I could do was *not a damned thing.*  8-)

Every time she asked about food (I'd also made steamed jasmine rice and crisp-cooked, flat-freezer packed American bacon for her, which she also treated like orders!), that's the answer she'd get:  I'll see what I can do.  :ninja:

I wanted to tell her that once she paid for all that food she ate, there might be a hope in hell of getting more, but I didn't want to encourage her or get her hopes up.  She broke the Dutiful Food Vending Machine - and I wasn't going to repair it.  :no_shake:

It took me forever to realize I was being tested and used, but once I did, I never let it happen again.  Frankly, I was more disgusted with myself for not seeing it for so  long, knowing she was never going to change.

I had to be mad at somebody.  Why not myself?  :roll:

But I did forgive myself, and promised myself it wouldn't happen in the future - and it never did.  She pulled out all the stops, even wailing that she thought I'd forgotten she's my mooooooooooooooother  :dramaqueen: :violin: -  I told  her she was being silly and I was very busy, that's all.  No time to cook.   :ninja:

Once you *realize* you're being tested, played, manipulated and used, it's a lot easier to make it STOP.

Your father is just going to keep pulling stunts like this - your job is to *avoid him and let him do for himself, without your help or intervention.*  :yes:


Thanks WI. I think the thing that annoyed most about pee-gate and the thing that always annoys me is HE NEVER HELPS HIMSELF.

He knew he had a pee problem that a lot of older men get but had he been to the doctor to sort something out - NO
He knew pads were available that would, at the very least, mitigate the problem (although I see they do some that are totally waterproof). Did he buy any? NO

Thats him all over."It'll be alright" or "no need to waste money". I can tell he was thinking, it'll be ok, I'll just p to stop a few times so I can go to the bathroom .Didn't think traffic jam at all!

Same with the spare clothes. Its minging to go away and not have a change of clothes. In his head, its fine - no need to change (or wash).
And the idea that I was going to change him and wash him. Ewwwww!

I have taken him in the car since. I've told him "no waterproof pads, no car ride" now. He hates it. Last time I made hims how me the packet. He had the "free" ones from the NHS i.e. from the District Nurse. The crap ones in other words that the NHS buy. Nope didnt pass the test - no ride until you buy the decent ones....

Finally, "wi'n byw yn gymru" I LIVE IN WALES.  :aaauuugh:

So deffo not English. I will forgive you just this once! :-)
Dealing with PD Parents / Re: preparing for the next visit
« Last post by Spring Butterfly on Today at 07:00:29 AM »
Wonderful - so glad for you that it's done

Hugging - any physical contact with anyone regardless of relationship is with your permission or not at all. The very first boundary babies learn is our physical boundary, your skin holds you inside you inside and separates from others. Hugging (especially shirtless skin contact) is only allowed with your permission once you learn the word "no" . Physical contact that is forced on another adult or child is the most basic boundary violation. Violation is the key word there. You need to make yourself clear even if done medium chill.

One who is not a hugger has an intense and viseral response to hugs. A hugger know a non hugger when they offer the hug, it's a clear stiffening, they are *not* enjoying it, are not hugging back, stiff with arms at sides, no softness at all even if there was a relaxed conversation or greeting there's a total shift. Very clearly communicated without a word.

Trying to avoid or control conflict means continuing to suppress yourself, your wishes, your boundaries because that's the only way to avoid conflict - to suppress yourself. So you must at some point choose, yourself or others. Then once you choose you gently but clearly communicate and let them own their feelings and choose their response.

You must view yourself as separate if they are to have the opportunity to view you as separate. (not likely but that's the process)

It's not easy. My enmeshment and entanglement was intense. When I landed here I had no idea notaries existed and learned about them here. No matter how kindly worded simple requests or standing to passive aggressive snipes was met with rage. Plus MiL is the same way so I had it from both sides. I had to choose and I chose me because it was severely impacting my health. All of us here are traveling our own journey on the path Out of the FOG. It's not easy but you do hold the power, your power, even though it doesn't feel that way at times.

Any boundary or request I made, he pushed. Little things like "tell me before you invite people over for dinner." "Don't move my stuff."
these are requests / rules not boundaries. Check the Toolbox topic and also the sticky topic on boundaries in Working On Us. Boundaries define what you do when others ignore your requests, they are bulletproof and cannot be violated.
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