medium chill - did I do this right?

[openskyblue]

It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation. Calling makes for more discomfort. And her expectations about social media mean you'd never post a thing without running it past her first. All in all, sounds like she's used to wielding the control.

[WomanInterrupted]

Yes, I'd *definitely* lower contact to once a week, and if she keeps playing at her Snotty Act, I'd lower calling to once every 10 days, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month - 2 months - you see where this is headed, right?

I'll never understand why they don't see the connection between being nasty and us not wanting to talk to them.   

And I'd *definitely* block her on FB - and anybody who can act as a Flying Messenger Monkey in giving her information about you and yours.   

I think Openskyblue has it only partially right - yes, this is about her CONTROL, but also how *close* you appear to be - not that you are, but how it looks to others.   

You'd tell a loving grandma, and that grandma would probably call the child, send a get well card, maybe even visit and bring the child a small gift.

To your mom, this is all about *appearance* because she *doesn't actually care.*  She has to look like she cares, so that means being super-nosy and invasive, all but jamming an electron microscope up your butt to get information *lest she seem uninvolved* - which she really IS.   

I have to admit, this bothers me:

...but my child doesn't want to... (in regard to blocking your mom on FB)

YOU are the *parent.*  Your child doesn't get a say in this because you're *protecting that child.*  Children don't get to choose how parents protect them from hostile or negative influences  that can disrupt  or make their lives unpleasant.  With luck, they don't even know the things parents do behind the scenes to keep them safe and happy.   

So you don't *discuss* blocking grandma, you just *block her* and don't tell your child.   

If your child figures it out and says something, I'd reply, "Please trust my judgment.  I love you and I'm protecting you."

If your child asks *from grandma!?!?!?* - yes.  Because sometimes she's not a very nice person, and right now, she's very angry with me.   I don't want to upset her with photos.   

Or any other age-appropriate explanation that gets your point across.   

The boundaries don't apply just to your mom - but to your kids as well, which was why I mentioned the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend.

Your child having an opinion about broccoli and not wanting to eat it?  That's one thing.

Your child having say in who you block on social media - that's an entirely different thing, and the book will help you see the difference.   

[illogical]

I agree with WI-- lower contact.

Also, I would let your mother be the one to call you next time.  Wait it out, even if she doesn't call for several weeks.  It sounds like she is trying to put the burden on you to make polite conversation, since you are the one who called.  I wouldn't put up with this PA horse manure.  She's trying to get you to ask her "What's wrong mother?"  or "Did I do something to offend you, mother?"  I see her just waiting to pounce like a cat on a mouse.  Don't give her the satisfaction.  One thing you might do is not ask her how she is.  Don't ask her any questions that she can counter with silence.  Let her call you.  Then the burden of "polite conversation" is on her.  If you feel you must call her, talk on endlessly about something meaningless.  Don't let it seem like it's bothering you that she's not responding.  Then end the call  with "Gotta go now.  Very busy."  And hang up.  You've done your bit, and she can call you the next time.  It's easy to get into the mindset that you have to be the one to initiate the phone calls.  No, you don't.  Normal relationships are give and take.  We know this isn't a "normal" relationship, but I wouldn't get caught up in doing all the calling and I wouldn't handle her with kid gloves.  That's walking on eggshells.  Another book you might consider reading is Randi Kreger's Stop Walking on Eggshells.

And just let her be mad.  That's her choice.  She doesn't get to control when and even if you call her.  That's your call. 

It's also your call what you tell her about your life and your family's lives.   It seems from what you've posted that your mother has an enormous sense of entitlement here.  [Btw, this is a hallmark characteristic of narcissism, a sense of entitlement.]  Your mother feels it's her right to know everything about you and your family.  Well, no.  You are an adult and have the right to privacy.  So keep limiting the information you share with her and lob that ball back into her court regarding the phone calls.  Let her call you next time.   

[Sidney37]

It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation.

Exactly.  If I stop calling or reduce the frequency, she tells everyone (flying monkeys) that I'm not talking to her.  If I call, I get snippy 2 word answers.  I can't even talk to my dad, because he's now calling on speaker phone with her in the background trying desperately to get her to  talk to me.  I was in my car, on the way to get gas because it was low.  I made some comment about hoping the station was close so I don't run out and she loudly made a snide remark about me not being able to read the gas gauge in my car.  That was the extent of her communication with me when he called me.  Why would I want to talk to her with snide remarks and 2 word answers?  If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

[Sidney37]

I think Openskyblue has it only partially right - yes, this is about her CONTROL, but also how *close* you appear to be - not that you are, but how it looks to others.   

You'd tell a loving grandma, and that grandma would probably call the child, send a get well card, maybe even visit and bring the child a small gift.

To your mom, this is all about *appearance* because she *doesn't actually care.*  She has to look like she cares, so that means being super-nosy and invasive, all but jamming an electron microscope up your butt to get information *lest she seem uninvolved* - which she really IS.   

I didn't think about it that way but it's true.  During the couple of true medical emergencies I've had in my life, she refuses to help.  She insists that my father or MIL come to help.  She's just too busy with work, it getting her hair cut or a church event.  When she can swoop in, tell all of her friends that she came to "get Sidney organized" because I'm a  "mess", and then sit on my couch for a week bossing us around, she'll help.  She never asked my DD how her injury was... still hasn't!  She acts like the doting mother and grandmother, but she isn't.  She wants to be seen that way and is mortified if she isn't!

[WomanInterrupted]

You wrote:

If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

I'd deflect all flying messenger monkeys with, "I don't know where she got that idea - I've just been busy, that's all.   And the phone does work both ways.  She can call me anytime.  Thanks for your concern - but there's nothing to be concerned about.  Goodbye."   

If they get too persistent or too in your business, block them without explanation.  Then you won't have to deal with it. 

Yes, you might wind up blocking quite a few members of your FOO, but if they're drinking her kool-aid, do you really thing they have your best interests at heart?

But the first thing I'd do, very soon, is block her, your father and all FMM's from your Facebook.   

I like what Illogical said - let her call you, even if you have to wait it out a few weeks, or longer.  She can spin all the lies she wants, you can deflect then block FMMs, she can keep wailing to them, they'll get your VM, she'll wail some more - and the smart ones are going to figure out, "Hey...if THAT'S how she talks to Sidney, no wonder she doesn't call!"   

The ones that still believe her will probably leave more VMs in your blocked folder, that you can delete without listening to, since you know what they're going to say.   

So...a month goes by and she doesn't call.  Good.  She's probably giving your her version of the Silent Treat, which really IS a treat when you're not being verbally abused and harassed!   

Two months go by - I'd consider blocking her number and giving yourself perpetual peace.   Encourage your DH to block her, too - and block her on your kids' cell phones, as well (if they have them, that is).

Or don't block her and wait her out.  Let's see how long she wants to play these stupid games, where you must call Her Majesty.   

But...it blew up in my face.  Just so you know.   

Once I started limiting calls with unBPD Didi, she started calling here and at that time, we had a land line with *no* caller ID, and an answering machine.  Sometimes she'd leave messages, but most times she wouldn't, and would expect me to just *know* that hang-up was her.   

Most of the time, if she *did* leave a message, I'd wait several days before returning the call - and always at a time I knew wouldn't be good for her (meals, favorite TV show, outside gardening).  I'd leave a message and consider it mission accomplished - and if she returned my call, I'd wait until *I* felt comfortable calling back - usually several days later.   

But she called here TOO often - and mostly over nothing, and I *dreaded* calling her back.  In retrospect, I wish I'd been brave enough to just invest in a cell phone and block her, then and there.

Back then, I was a little scared of all her plotting and scheming and figured I had to be in the loop, even if it was on the periphery - I realize now there was NO plot or scheme that needed my involvement or attention.   

If she does take Didi's tactic of calling pretty much nonstop, you're going to have to decide what *limits* to put on returning calls.  Once a week?  Once every two weeks?  Never?  Block her?   

You know she's not going to be able to keep up any attempts at a Nice Act for very long, and will probably revert to the Snotty Act, where she calls you to bark one or two word answers at you, until you tell her you can't talk when she's that upset - goodbye.   

BTW - Didi was the same way during *any* emergency.  She just couldn't be arsed, but would TELL everybody HOW CONCERNED she was for me or us.   

DH had retinal reattachment surgery to both eyes in '94.  We were both pretty scared - Didi told me I was making a mountain out of a molehill and *healthy young men don't go blind, ever* - and she ordered me to stop talking about it, because I was ruining her upcoming trip!   

Yeah!  That's my support system, going to a convention instead of helping or offering help!   

I'm sure everybody at that convention heard how worried she was, but saw evidence to the contrary - her whooping it up and having fun, without talking to me *at all* - which was probably downplayed with me being so DRAMATIC about everything that she had to take a break from talking to me, which is the furthest thing from the truth!   

Yes, they must *appear* to be perfect and *appear* to be loving and concerned as long as they don't actually have to DO anything but sit there and order us around!  That's called "helping" us - when it's anything but!      

That's why I think blocking her, your dad and all FMM's on FB is a good idea - she won't see information she can *use* to appear to be "perfect" and concerned or caring.

That's why she drills you so much on the phone - and lord only knows who she blabs your personal business too, while making herself look like a saint (who did NOTHING and didn't even CARE), and you look foolish and immature, constantly needing mommy's help.

So yes - you're playing hardball.  I had to do the same thing with Didi and *pry* her many tentacles off my life - but it was *worth it.*   

It really is.  It may not seem like it, right now, but it IS - and when she does eventually up her game (you know a medical emergency is probably in the making) - you can react accordingly by saying, "Gosh.  That's something.  Well, you're in good hands - I'll let you rest."   

That's if you haven't blocked her first, and she doesn't realize her VMs aren't being listened to.   

Just because she has some sort of medical "emergency" requires NO action on your part - always remember that.  The *doctors* have this - and you'll only be her lightning rod of hate, so you're better off staying OUT of it completely.   

I know that sounds heartless - but it's not.  I'm thinking of YOU.  Your mother isn't and will only use an "emergency"  to shame and belittle you.

If she's done it before, there's a good chance she'll do it again - which is another reason I think you should take Illogical's idea of not calling her to heart - you'll probably find out soon enough what she's got up her sleeve, *but you don't have to actually DO anything.*   

Not even visiting.  You're *busy.*  If you think of it, maybe send a card - but I probably wouldn't, because it will only encourage her.

I'll leave you with the words of Tyrion Lannister:  "You're in the great game now, and it's terrifying."

But you are *never alone.*  Your *tribe* has your back, every step of the way and wants you to succeed in claiming your life back!     <-- I'm the 2nd one from the left.   

[Sidney37]

I have a follow up question to all of this.  Can someone explain to me the difference between JADEing and clearly stating boundaries?  I cut back contact without telling her that I was cutting back contact and why.  I am reading books recommended here and elsewhere about boundaries and several have said that I need to clearly state my boundaries.  Should I have said weeks ago that I am no longer going to call daily and why I'm not calling daily?  I didn't do that because it felt like JADEing.  The examples I am reading in books about clearly stating boundaries sound like JADEing to me.  I'm confused about the difference.  The natural consequence to her short and snide 2 word answers when I have called in the past few weeks and her loudly mocking me in the background when I am talking to my father and she is there is that I am calling less, but I am wondering if I should have said some version of "If you are going to respond to my questions with short 2 word answers, I'm not going to talk to you every day"?  Is there a book or article that describes the difference between JADEing and stating boundaries?

[illogical]

Great questions!

Personally, I never stated boundaries to my NM.  Boundaries are for you, not your mother.  In other words, you erect boundaries because you want to protect yourself from abuse.  If you clearly state your boundaries, your mother is very likely to not acknowledge them.  She may not acknowledge them anyway-- even if you don't state them--  but at least you know you have set limits to protect yourself.

Very often when you "tell the truth" to a narcissist/BPD person, they won't accept your truth.  So say you told your mother you weren't going to call and why.  She would likely go to great lengths to counter your behavior with totally illogical tactics, like "you weren't contacting her because you had a problem" (gaslighting) or "she just didn't understand how you could be so mean" (waif victimization) etc., etc., etc.,

So, no.  Don't tell her your boundaries.  Let your actions speak.  This is the key, IMHO.  You have to let your actions speak to the situation.  Trying to talk and talk ends up JADEing and in circular conversations and you are on the hamster wheel to nowhere.

So set your boundary for YOU.  If you don't want to talk to your NM except every week or so, then do it.  No explanation.  No reason.  You don't owe her any reason.  You are an adult that can choose to engage or not, choose to engage on a daily or weekly or monthly basis.  The choice is yours.

So set that boundary and determine the consequence for what happens if your NM doesn't respect that boundary.  Consequences for not respecting frequently include less engagement.  There is no reason to tell your mother what you are doing.  With a "normal" individual, you might do that, but you aren't dealing with "normal" here.

Go your own way and do your own thing.  Even after you SHOW your mother with your actions that you will not be bullied or coerced into compliance, she may very well trample your boundary or boundaries and then you are faced with a decision-- are you going to continue to "do battle" with setting boundaries and enforcing them or are you going to go NC?  That is something you have to decide.

I can tell you, though, that your mother is very unlikely to change her behavior.  She wants you back "dancing the dysfunctional dance" and anything short of 100% compliance will be met with resistance.  I would stick very close to my boundaries and not give her any explanation as to why I set them.  That's your business.  You owe her no explanation as to why you are refusing to engage.  Others may differ, but that is my take.   

[WomanInterrupted]

I second Illogical's ever-logical post!   

The boundaries are for YOU.  You get to decide how much you'll take, and what you will and won't put up with.  You tell *yourself*  you're not calling every day, and if she's nasty, snippy, snide, or making rude or sarcastic comments in the background of a call on speaker, you will *end the call* - and you do NOT have to give an explanation.  Just, "I gotta go."

Or even, "I can tell you're upset about something, so I'll let you go."   

Then you can determine the *boundary* of when you're going to call again, by saying to yourself, "Well, she acted like a jerk, she gave two-word  answers, and she's not behaving in a manner that would make *anybody* want to talk to her, so I'm not calling for 5 days.  If she does it again, 10 days."

You are making the rules for YOU.   

The only times you *tell* a boundary are, "I'm hanging up" and, "I'm leaving" and even that isn't set in stone.   

You never, EVER give her a list of boundaries, because you want to avoid World War III.  She'll sneer, scoff, and may even roar, "I am the mother and you do NOT tell me what to do!"   

And she doesn't even need a list because your boundaries are the simple rules we follow with others - and others expect from us - in a polite, respectful society, such as not talking over the top of another person, not barking orders or making demands, not talking down about others or the person we're with, not constantly complaining in a TMI way, and overall, just trying to be a decent person. 

If you were to  say to your mom, "I don't want you to insult me..." - or hand her a list with that boundary on it, the only thing she's going to do is make sure to insult you even *more* because *you can't tell her what to do.*   

I didn't have a list of boundaries written down, but I knew:

1.  Medium Chill, all the way.   

2.  NO information for unNPD Didi, in any way, shape or form.

3.  No JADE on why I haven't called.  I was busy -and I AM busy!

4.  Complaints are kicked up to the person who can handle them - like her doctor.

5.  NO getting involved in her petty dramas.  (Medium Chill and an abrupt subject change.)

6.  NO taking her to the ER or hospital - she can call an *ambulance.*

7.  Screaming, crying or being insulting on the phone make me HANG UP.

8.  Suicide threats - real or fauxicide - are met with me hanging up and calling 911.  (Actually, that was the ONE time I gave her a warning and told her if she EVER did it again, she'd be explaining it to the paramedics - and that was the last time she did it.)

9.  NO in-person visits.  That ship has sailed.

10.  Bad behavior - waifing,  acting like a Queen, ordering me to do things, or guilting me about not calling or visiting, generally just acting like a miseryguts, trying to treat me as a doctor instead of calling her own and *slamming the phone down in my ear* (one of those suckers from the 70's, so it was loud   ) - ADDS TIME ON BETWEEN CALLS.  NO EXCEPTIONS.   

Say it's Monday and I wasn't going to call until next Monday because I was trying to wean her off calls, BUT in this call, she not only got really snotty, implied I should be her maid, tried to get me to be her doctor and slammed the phone down when I told her I couldn't help her; she'd have to call her doctor instead.

That call next Monday wouldn't come - I'd make it on Thursday, instead, and adjust my "wean down" table from there.

I got to calling her once every three weeks very quickly - and was about to pull the trigger on NC if her latest "medical emergency" turned out to be fake.  It wasn't and she died - so you could say she's now giving me the *permanent* Silent Treat - and I'm very happy with it.   

The ONLY excuse I ever gave her about why I didn't call or visit  was being BUSY.

And you ARE busy - right now, you're busy reading this post.  That's BUSY!   

"Busy" can be you, soaking in a nice bubble bath, with lovely glass of  red, listening to an audiobook.  That's BUSY!   

Busy can be you, not doing a damned thing except enjoying being alive.   

We don't actually have to be doing things to be BUSY.  We're not human doings - we're human *beings.*

That was the thing I had the hardest time wrapping my head around, which is why I mention  it - you are NOT LYING when you say you're busy.   

When questioned about busy with WHAT, I stuck to, "Oh, you know...never a dull moment around here..." or, "Oh,  you know, more of the usual..." - and that's all I'd tell Didi.

Illogical is right - none of this is going to change her behavior, but it will change your *perception* of her behavior, to the point you're thinking, "Why do I bother talking to her at all?  She's a selfish, self-centered drama-queen who is determined to CONTROL me - and I deserve better.  My family deserves better.  I think I'm better off blocking her number than letting her continue to inflict damage on me and mine."

Believe it or not, that's a very *healthy* way of thinking.   

[Spring Butterfly]

Going from daily contact and zero boundaries is a process and is a very individual process but there are some commonalities covered so far. Here were some of my experiences that may help and relate to your journey at this point.

My experience with boundaries were that they were best decided ahead of time but spoken in the moment as needed via medium chill. Working through some exercises to tie my boundaries to my core beliefs helped prepare me to handle a variety of boundary busting attempts from PD and others in my life. Boundaries of all types became automated and quick responses because they were tied to a few basic core beliefs.

.......
My experience for acceptable topics of conversation was that people, whether they know them or not, opened up a whole can of worms and that seems to be what you were experiencing as well.

Also asking them any personal question at all open the can of worms where they were then free to ask me personal questions. So it was best to stick with vague "how are you" or "what's new with you both" and only ask follow-up questions on what they chose to share because that is how I wanted questions asked of me. So ultimately I didn't share anything that I wouldn't want follow up questions posed.

Safe topics where related to gardening or things I read on common topics, places, etc. Yes I actually prepared for conversation. Now I just have a few things in my back pocket for everyone.

.....
Here's my experience for what it's worth. A little backstory... My contact was daily, yes daily lunch and shopping. There were two days we didn't go to lunch and shopping but saw each other at community events. Boundaries? I didn't even know they existed or that I had a right to them or what they were or anything at all. In the Working On Us board I devoured the sticky topic on boundaries and did a ton of other research which I included in that thread. There's also some notes in these two threads:

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=29251.0

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=28162.0


Looking back those were some pivotal points, deciding what I wanted this parental / adult relationship to look like.

The process of getting there is very much like dealing with a toddler because that's where a PD often is at emotionally. However the process of getting there for me hinged on maintaining adult to adult interaction. The theory of transactional analysis helped because a PD is often trying to keep themselves in either parent or child mode while pushing you into the other and it flip flops back and forth. so it was important for me to maintain adult to adult interaction and refuse to acknowledge uPDm child or parent and refused to allow her to push me into one of those roles. Check out the theory of transactional analysis for more information. You don't need to know it in-depth just a basic understanding that human beings have three basic modes of operation or "voices"  and its best to stay adult-to-adult interaction.

The other thing I needed to develop was not caring, truly the child inside needed to not care whether or not mommy / daddy approved or disapproved of my choices or actions. That required me to fully adult from within and that took time and patience.

It was scary and yes every time I didn't comply I was punished much the same as you described here with the game I'm not answering the phone or being too busy to talk to me in a "see you know how it feels now" sort of baby child game. Except it backfired and I started to really not care and actually be relieved.

Here's what it comes down to oftentimes with PD - it's all one giant Hoover (see the top 100 traits) to get you to comply 100% with their wishes because if you can't comply 100% they'd rather have nothing at all. It's not about love or any level of love it's about control and the need for 100% control or else zero. Most times there's no in between it's their way or they'd rather have nothing at all which is not logical and baffling to those of us traveling this journey. And quite honestly it sort of hurts that we're not good enough, we're not loved, if we're not a hundred percent compliant. Most times we're not loved as a human being but as a human doing which is really sad because if we don't do what they want we're tossed aside. I had to make peace with that and no it still hurts because I am in contact but I'm at peace with it just the same. I feel the sad and move past it.

Hopefully you find some of this helpful!  You're doing great!

[Sidney37]

Thank you WI, Illogical and Spring Butterfly,

While I've been heading back in and Out of the FOG over the years, I think it was a lack of true understanding of boundaries that really was causing me issues.  Thank you all for explaining and clarifying for me.  Those three responses really helped a lot.   I read the Boundaries book by Cloud this week and that helped as well.  I'm going to read it again to make sure I better understand the difference between clearly stated boundaries and unspoken ones if he covers that.  I also just bought both books that Spring Butterfly recommended for my kindle.  Thank you for those recommendations.  I was amused by one thing in Cloud's book.  At the beginning and end there is an example of how a day is for a woman with and without boundaries.  I laughed at the end when she set a boundary with her mother, the mother wasn't happy and then the woman thought to herself that her mother would be fine by tomorrow!  Lol.  Don't we all wish we could set a boundary and they would be fine by tomorrow?    I would have liked to have read some more examples that were similar to our mothers and how he would respond.  I think he'd probably say to go NC.

Clearly I didn't understand boundaries and really had next to none.  I knew the daily calls weren't OK, but it was easier that dealing with her passive aggressive behavior.   I knew how to do NC and not talk to her entirely, but it caused me severe amounts of stress from the second guessing about how my NC was different than her silent treatment and how upset it made my father, but like everyone I'm now seeing that there are reasons he stuck with this for 50 years.  He has traits, too. 

I understood clearly stated boundaries, but it make me stressed to state them.  Several years ago we clearly stated a few boundaries for her visits.  She could only stay a certain number of days because beyond that her anxiety was through the roof.  She couldn't threaten to leave days early because someone made her mad.  If she did threaten to leave we would not be taking her to the train station or airport.  We had a few others.  She did fine for a while and accepted the boundaries.  I understood that those were clearly stated boundaries and there were consequences to violating them.

The unspoken boundaries were what clearly confused me.  Your three answers helped me to better understand the unspoken boundaries.  They are just normal boundaries that other people have that never need to be spoken.  It's like they are boundaries of social norms.  Other people understand social norms and what is appropriate and what isn't.  It's like PDs just ignore and walk all over them knowing that we are either so stunned or socially appropriate ourselves that we won't call them on it. 

I also see that I shouldn't ask her detailed questions if I don't want to answer those questions myself.  That's hard.  I frankly have nothing left to talk to her about for more than just a few minutes.  Yesterday she talked about a church activity and I asked some follow up questions.  I told her about a situation that happened at a local school here that made the news.  She started to criticize it because she could tell my view on it was different than hers.  I changed the subject.  It was dull, boring and with lots of silent pauses because I didn't want to give her any personal information or ask her for any.   So then she did it.  Totally unrelated to what we were talking about, she asked a very direct, very personal and  very intrusive question about how something worked out with one of my kids.  My answer was "fine".  She was upset and mad that she didn't get more information.  I got a "What do you mean, fine? You haven't told me about (how that thing was going) for a month.  You aren't going to tell me?  Well I'll never ask you anything again.  You just won't tell me anything anymore.  I don't know why I ask you anything".  Then the whimpering started.  I told her that I had to go and hung up.  That boundary I could see.  I didn't need to tell her that the question was inappropriate because she would have argued that I've told her before, that it wasn't inappropriate, etc.  In the past, I would have answered the question because 1. It seemed like the polite thing to do and 2. She would react the way that she did if I didn't.   But now that I am thinking about boundaries, it stunned me how intrusive and inappropriate the question was. 

The process of getting there is very much like dealing with a toddler because that's where a PD often is at emotionally. However the process of getting there for me hinged on maintaining adult to adult interaction. The theory of transactional analysis helped because a PD is often trying to keep themselves in either parent or child mode while pushing you into the other and it flip flops back and forth. so it was important for me to maintain adult to adult interaction and refuse to acknowledge uPDm child or parent and refused to allow her to push me into one of those roles. Check out the theory of transactional analysis for more information. You don't need to know it in-depth just a basic understanding that human beings have three basic modes of operation or "voices"  and its best to stay adult-to-adult interaction.

This is very helpful - adult to adult interaction.  That's what I'm not getting from her unless we are talking about very basic day to day activities - she went to the store, she went to church, she went to her exercise class.  If we talk about me or my kids, I am treated like a child.  If we talk about the news, she wants my opinion on it and I am treated like a child because I am wrong.  If we talk about her health, her house, her money, her car, etc. - I am supposed to act like the parent, tell her what to do and then be blamed when it doesn't go her way.  Most things I am treated like a child.  Adult to adult interaction is what I am looking for, but I will never get it from her.  I know adults who I knew when I was a child.  They now treat me like an adult.  My parents don't.  This is key and  also why I am realizing that my father is more than just an enabler.  He has issues, too.  He has difficulty treating me like an adult as well.

Thank you all for helping through these realizations.  I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on.  I really do appreciate it.  I'm making progress!

[Spring Butterfly]

Wow good job on that boundary!! Yes very little to talk about really and the snipes about not asking anything anymore, yep heard them too.

Adult to adult, no not going to actually get it but by maintaining your adult stance, digging in and sticking to it, and talking to them as an adult and by you refuse any other role it just feels so much better for me. I used to think of Mary from Downton Abbey and just try to be unflappable like that with a flip "well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it I suppose" and change the subject in a dismissive sort of way.

You got this and are on such a good path.

[all4peace]

Sidney37, I haven't read through the whole thread so hopefully am not repeating.

Some boundaries MUST be stated, such as "I expect you to call me in advance rather than showing up at my doorstep without notice."
And some don't need to be. For me, I wouldn't state your type of boundary since it would simply be vociferously argued with and it would escalate the conflict. So you may think but do not need to say "If M wants to give terse unfriendly answers and not initiate phone conversations, then I will let her have her space and back away on the phone calls." No need to state it out loud.

Good luck!

[all4peace]

It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation.

Exactly.  If I stop calling or reduce the frequency, she tells everyone (flying monkeys) that I'm not talking to her.  If I call, I get snippy 2 word answers.  I can't even talk to my dad, because he's now calling on speaker phone with her in the background trying desperately to get her to  talk to me.  I was in my car, on the way to get gas because it was low.  I made some comment about hoping the station was close so I don't run out and she loudly made a snide remark about me not being able to read the gas gauge in my car.  That was the extent of her communication with me when he called me.  Why would I want to talk to her with snide remarks and 2 word answers?  If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

For me, and I believe for many of us here, learning to stop caring what "everyone thinks" and "what our PD is telling everyone" is a huge step Out of the FOG. They will say what they want, and others will believe what they believe. We limit the joy and peace in our lives if we let that determine our behavior. We get stuck in toxic, non-reciprocal, painful, hostile interactions just to not look bad. But you know what? Quite often we're already being smeared. We're making choices that are bad for us and our families to avoid being smeared, and we're often already being smeared.

Your M seems to be having an extended adult tantrum. Personally, I find adult tantrums too embarrassing to watch and so turn away. She isn't owed an explanation. Your F isn't owed an explanation. Your children can get an age-appropriate explanation. And it's not the extended family's business. If they push, it's fair to say "This is between me and my M. Now, how about that rain due tomorrow afternoon?"

[WomanInterrupted]

You did a FANTASTIC job with your boundary!   

And A4P is right - sometimes we do have to state boundaries, like when somebody invites themselves for an extended stay at our house, or even just an afternoon, and you don't want them there, or they *summon* you to theirs, and you don't want to go.

That doesn't work for me. 

I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good.

I can't - I'm swamped.

I'll check with DH and get back to you.  (and then you just DON'T!) 

I can't - I'm really busy.

And I agree -  not caring what "everybody thinks", "everybody says" and "everybody knows" is *extremely important* because that's just what your mom *says* about the ever-important Court of Public Opinion - but it doesn't mean it's *true.*

A4P  wrote:

And it's not the extended family's business. If they push, it's fair to say "This is between me and my M. Now, how about that rain due tomorrow afternoon?"

Absolutely spot-on, or, "Mom says I'm not talking to her?  Gosh, I wonder how she got that idea - I've just been busy, that's all.  I'll call her when I can."

And when that "can" is, is up to you. 

You can add time-on between calls for Flying Messenger Monkey involvement.   Think of it like a penalty in a sports game.   

Or you can say, "That's weird - I just talked to her a few days ago.  I'm starting to think she needs to see her doctor about having her memory checked."

This does a couple of things - first, it's TRUE because PDs get worse as they age, and second, lets the third party know that all is not as it appears.  They might not be so involved, if there's a next time.   

Or you can just save yourself the headache and block anybody who acts as an FMM. 

A4P wrote:

Your M seems to be having an extended adult tantrum. Personally, I find adult tantrums too embarrassing to watch and so turn away.

Again, I agree  - and it's only going to keep getting *worse* if you keep engaging.   

UnBPD  Didi, denied that Daily Dutiful Daughter phone call, and only getting Medium Chill when I did call, went Full Metal Waif in having herself hospitalized for Makeitupitis, over and over and over and over again  - so many times that I'm actually not sure.   

Always for her made-up or minor problems and never for the REAL problems she actually had, but chose to *ignore* - hoping they'd go away, because it would mean acknowledging culpability - chain-smoking, eating take-out or junk food for nearly every meal, and ignoring medical advice, orders or tests under the guise of, "I just CAN'T..." - and never really providing a *reason.*   

That didn't work on me, either.  In fact, it made me stressed-out and *angry* that she was putting so much freaking effort into getting me over there so she could alternately rip me to pieces with insults, be her attack dog and *expect me to know more than people who actually graduated from medical school.* 

The effort she put into being a Waif was *astonishing.*

But I stayed out of it, wanting no part in her temper tantrum or her desired outcome of a hospital bed in our living room, while she slowly drove DH, me and our pets insane.

It became a battle of wills - I kept lowering contact and refusing to get involved, and she was determined to WIN, at all costs - what she "won" was Hospice and strangers caring for her, when all it would have taken to have regular contact  and a decent relationship was her acknowledging she had a problem and accepting help from a T.

If she'd been willing to get help, I'd have been willing to meet her halfway, but she was so rigid in her thinking that the world owed her something, she was a special snowflake, nobody was going to tell HER what to do and *she did not have a problem - it's the rest of us that are the problem* - well, she shot herself in the foot.

But that was *her choice* - just like it's  your mom's choice to act like a civilized human being or not.

If she chooses not to and rages, tantrums and continues to treat you badly, it's your RIGHT to continue lowering contact - or bow out of the picture completely and become Sir Not Appearing In This Film. 

[Sidney37]

Thanks again everyone.  My stress is decreasing by communicating less.  Her behaviors are becoming more and more predictable, so that helps decrease stress, too.  I know what to expect.  Not knowing how she'll react to decreased contact was adding to my stress. 

I made a call to her yesterday because I saw something on the news that would affect her that she probably would have missed.  It was an excuse to call to see if she would admit that she sent a flying monkey my way.  Once I passed along the information she started asking intrusive questions about my family and I responded with the "we've been busy" and "fine" and the other answers you've all suggested.  She started weeping about how I never tell her anything anymore, how she's so isolated there in her house because of what I am doing to her, how she doesn't know anything that is going on with me and she feels like she's stuck in a hole with no information.    It was so telling.  She is out at church and community activities probably 4 hours a day 5-6 days a week , but all she cares about is getting detailed information about us for her supply and to gossip to those people at those activities.  She hates when they ask and she doesn't have an answer.  Of course, she has yet to ask how my child's injury is.  The fact that someone knew before she did about the injury started much of her anger to begin with.  She doesn't really care. 

She then went on to nearly admit that she sent a flying monkey my way to find out what my summer vacation plans were since there's been no more talk of the vacation I was supposed to take with my uPDm and enD.  I didn't tell them it was off, but stopped mentioning the planning of it after her visit a month ago.  She won't directly ask me about it or even mention it, so she has a relative that I talk to once or twice a year do it instead.    It was obvious to me that it was a flying monkey attempt, but she thinks that she's so clever and secretive.   

And then she gave me the  gloating "because you haven't called me I didn't tell you..." line that she loves to use.  Usually it's a death in the family, but this time she's taking a vacation and didn't tell me!   She seemed to think this was some terrible thing that she did by not telling me that she was leaving tomorrow for a vacation.  I really didn't care.  I responded with a "that's nice" and asked where she was going.  She seemed stunned that I didn't react the way that she would - with total furor that I was keeping something from her that she felt she had a right to know. 

The good news is that she'll be gone for over a week, so I will feel no guilt at all about not calling.  And I don't know exactly when she's getting back so I'll just wait for her to call me.  Hopefully that will be weeks!

[openskyblue]

I made a call to her yesterday because I saw something on the news that would affect her that she probably would have missed.  It was an excuse to call to see if she would admit that she sent a flying monkey my way. 

To go back to your original question -- medium chill - did I do this right? -- I have to say the answer is no. It sounds like you are finding excuses (the news) to try to get answers from her about her behavior (engaging flying monkeys). From my experience, this will only get you more abuse, upset, and circular arguments, which seems what happened in your  most recent conversation.

It doesn't sound like you are ready to disengage from you mother.

[all4peace]

Sidney37, this dynamic is what I think of as "weaponizing information." It's pretty common that when we start having boundaries around our communication, or when we're trying to balance it out by calling less or sharing less, the other reacts by withdrawing all information and communication. It can really be quite a rollercoaster for a while.

Personally, I think it's helpful for our sanity and kind for theirs if we become really steady, predictable and reliable. In other words, we decide what we WILL share and we always share it (medical emergencies, kids' sports schedules, or whatever it is that you want to share) and we decide what we WON'T share and we don't ever share it (personal info, our inner hearts, etc.).

It makes us predictable and reliable to someone who is already struggling with relationships. And it helps us keep "in our own lane" and not have to overthink every interaction. Things simply fit into 1 box or the other. It feels anxiety producing, awkward and "wrong" at first, but eventually we settle into the new pattern and it becomes normal. Like truly normal. Like what most healthy people have probably been doing all along

You're doing great!

[WomanInterrupted]

I think you're doing really well, and yes, I understand that "fishing expedition" you went on, trying to see if she'd own up to something you knew she did.

I used to run "litmus tests" from time to time to be *sure* I wasn't the crazy one.  I also would do it to see how badly Didi or Ray would lie, to save face, or manipulate the situation back to their favor.   Sometimes I'd post about it here, and would never cease to be amazed at how much they sounded just like other PD parents.   

Yes - you're used to her predictable reactions.  That's good and helps you move forward - you've stopped being afraid and are thinking, "Yup.  Typical."   

They really don't know what to do when we don't react in our usual ways, do they?  The first time unBPD Didi started droning on about a health problem, and I managed to get a word in and say, "That's a shame.  Did you call your doctor?" - she actually *gasped* into the phone, like she'd been struck. 

She said no, she didn't want to BOTHER him, so I said, "You're not bothering him - you're paying him, and you should give him a call and tell him what's going on."   

She couldn't get off the phone fast enough.  I really don't think she could handle that I wasn't taking up my usual "fixer" mantle and trying to figure out a way to make her feel better.   

Since your mom is going to be on vacation (lucky you!  ) for a week, I'd wait several days before calling her, when she returns, to give her time to unpack and get settled again. 

Or maybe you should wait until she calls you.  It's up to you - you know her best.   

In either case, if she demands to know  WHY it's taken this long to speak to  you, *keep it simple* - you were waiting for her to get settled in, and you've been busy, that's all.   

With the usual.  You know - never a dull moment around here.   

I don't think I'd ask if she had a nice time - I don't think I'd bring it up at all, because you know she's probably going to say she had a TERRIBLE time and try to blame you for it, since she has NO idea what's going  on with you and yours, and it put her in a horrible mood.   

However if she brings it up and starts complaining, say, "That's a shame..." - and quickly change the subject or end the call, if her mood is that foul.   

You may decide in that week she's gone, you LIKE that much peace and quiet, so that's how often you call - once a week *only* but you'll probably decide pretty quickly even *that* is too much, and lower contact further because you're not only finding you have to kind of work yourself up into the right frame of mind to talk to her, but you're getting *really* sick of listening to the same old, same old.   

That's *okay* - that's *healthy,* normal and natural.   

Nobody really wants to talk to Debbie Downer and listen to her worldview of every silver lining having a dark cloud.   

Oh!  And if she does bring up that vacation you were all supposed to go on (NO!  Don't do it!  RUN!    ), or it gets close to the time where you have to shore up reservations and she's expecting information, you might want to say, "Something came up and we have to postpone.  I'll let you know when we've rescheduled..." - and then you just *don't.*   

If she demands to know why, maybe you and DH are both getting slammed at work, or swamped with work, or it's "just a bad time right now" - with NO further explanation.

If she demands to know *why* it's a bad time, say, "I just told you.  It's a bad time.  I don't know when - or if - we'll be able to reschedule."   

That one *was* effective - and Didi would usually slam the phone down in my ear, but I really didn't *care* at that point, because I was over her crapola and antics, and just wanted to be free of her.

I have a feeling you're probably going to get to that point pretty quickly, yourself.   

[illogical]

...She then went on to nearly admit that she sent a flying monkey my way to find out what my summer vacation plans were since there's been no more talk of the vacation I was supposed to take with my uPDm and enD.  I didn't tell them it was off, but stopped mentioning the planning of it after her visit a month ago.  She won't directly ask me about it or even mention it, so she has a relative that I talk to once or twice a year do it instead.   It was obvious to me that it was a flying monkey attempt, but she thinks that she's so clever and secretive.   

And then she gave me the  gloating "because you haven't called me I didn't tell you..." line that she loves to use. Usually it's a death in the family, but this time she's taking a vacation and didn't tell me!   She seemed to think this was some terrible thing that she did by not telling me that she was leaving tomorrow for a vacation.  I really didn't care.  I responded with a "that's nice" and asked where she was going.  She seemed stunned that I didn't react the way that she would - with total furor that I was keeping something from her that she felt she had a right to know. 

That's really good that you responded with "That's nice" and basically refused to get upset over her "unannounced" vacation plans.  I think she's playing PA games here.  She very likely could still be ticked off that your family told her after you were in transit that you were going on a 2-day spur-of-the-moment trip.  As I recall from a previous post, she was in a snit because you didn't have time to visit her.  Also, she's probably ticked over the fact you haven't mentioned the planned joint vacation.

So what does she do?  "I'll get Sydney.  I'll plan an 'unannounced' vacation of my own.  Wait until the last minute and then tell her, hoping she will feel 'left out' of my plans."  Her PA way of getting even with you.  Only her plan failed because you didn't take the bait.  I wonder if she really is going, or if it was just a stunt to try to get your goat.  At any rate, good for you you didn't give her a reaction!