i think i will tell him i want a separation

[capybara]

At couples counselling, last week, he wanted to know what my difficulty is in our relationship. So I told him that when I raise a problems, we don't stay on that topic until I am validated and get some resolution. And.... guess what happened in couples counselling? Exactly that. I was crying in the session and I did bring up the topic of separation.

Afterward we went and talked for a long time and I felt like he was pushing me again to leave. I said I would not leave the house without an agreement about a schedule for the children. He was mad about that, of course.

Thank God I could stay with my mom if I had to, and I work.

We have another couples counseling session scheduled for Wednesday so we can clear the air about my stuff and get back to talking about what he wants and needs.

I am thinking about telling him today that I just can't try any more and that I am moving to the basement. I know if I say it in the couples counseling, he will just walk out.

He has never raised a hand to me, never thrown a plate or anything like that. And I am terrified.

[Blackbird11]

I think in general it's a very scary thing to do, even if the person you're saying this too doesn't have a PD.

Be safe first and foremost. I sort of brought it up to my uPDh in stages. I didn't think he'd react violently, but I was still hyper cautious and had a place to go just in case. Definitely follow the checklists this website provides. As people have said on here and even told me: better to have over prepared.

Did you talk to a lawyer yet? Highly recommend that before you ask for separation. It took me months to get up the courage to see a lawyer, and then I sobbed in the parking lot before I went in. But I knew I had to do it - also have a house and kids.

[capybara]

Thanks, Blackbird. In 2018 we actually nearly separated twice. The first time was him leaving and the second time was me asking him to leave ... but then taking it back. The subject came up at our last couples counselling session and we talked about it afterward. So it will not be a shock.

I have only chatted with a friend who is a lawyer a little bit, and done some online research. It feels like talking to a lawyer before he does would be "cheating" somehow. I don't know. I am sure he would be mad at me if he found out.

Yesterday I felt like I had to ask him immediately, so he could recover before a meeting Wednesday. But actually, there is no deadline. Thank you for suggesting the checklists.

[Arkhangelsk]

Hey there.  You are really concerned about how he feels - in counseling and if you see a lawyer.

What about you?  What about how you feel terrified.  That is a valid feeling and you deserve someone to take it seriously.  I think you should do that for yourself.  Go get some advice from a lawyer.  Or maybe get out a piece of paper and write down a list of things you feel or want or need.  Sort through them and see if you can take some practical steps to take care of yourself.  You deserve that.

[Blackbird11]

I relate to that feeling of "cheating" by going to see a lawyer so much. That's pretty much why it took me so long to go. A few months later, I would like to put the lawyer on speed dial. I wouldn't think twice - but it took so long to get here.

I'm sure everyone's timeline is different but there are so many emotions that come along with this. You will do everything when you're ready.

[hhaw]

Capy:

Whatever you, please position yourself well BEFORE telling your PD you're splitting up. 

Move your most precious items to your mother's house.  Get important documents, and bank accounts under your control, and seek legal consults with the very best family law attorneys in your County.  That way you have a skeleton to build your case on AND your PD can't hire those attorneys. 

Also, document carefully everything you need the court to understand about your case.  THIS is the time you'll be figuring out what the theory of your case will be, bc you'll base it on your evidence, and not on the crazy things PD stbx is doing. 

Document well, keep a journal with dates, times, what the PD does, what you're doing, what the kids schedule is and DO NOT LET THE PD KNOW YOU'RE DOCUMENTING, bc that's when documnenting will get harder,  IME.

Once you tell him you're leaving EVERYTHING will get harder, and mean SO much harder than you can imagine. 

So take care of business before bringing it up, hide things you care about, seek legal counsel of the best HIGH CONFLICT attorneys in your COUNTY, and research what kind of documentation you can use. 

Can you record conversations?
Can you hook up a nanny cam stbx doesn't know about?
Can you put locks on the doors you'll be living behind?
Listen to your gut.  If you're afraid, pay attention to it.  Be ready to document anything and everything the PD does.  My best divorce attorney said that a spouse tossing the tv button in anger is something to be reported to the police.  Don't let him get away with ANYTHING,  report report report.

Most of the time we don't tell the police.  I sure didn't,  and I paid for it.   Most of us do. 

Please begin filing your documentation, and keeping it at your mother's house.  Don't mark up original documents, and use the very bright yellow highlighter to mark up copies if necessary... NO OTHER COLORS.  It copies without showing up very much, and you might have to salvage a copy, if you lose an original.

it's also likely time to get the kids into Therapy, and that in place before you say you're going.  Someone who's used to testifying in court, and can advocate for your children in a very powerful way.

You've choosing advocates, and you need to choose well.  A good attorney, who understands PD behaviors, and a good T, who is used to dealign with PDs parening children, will be worth their weight in GOLD.

It's very difficult to change horses once youi're in it. 

Be sneaky.  Keep the news you're leaving secret... keep it safe.

Good luck,.

[Spygirl]

As much as you feel you are "cheating", be advised that your pd has quietly been doing his own planning.

There is no point in who is the "victim" because no matter what, you will be blamed for everything. Its just how it is. So you could appear to be the bad person in the short term and save yourself, or allow the perceptions of others to control your life.

How many people's thoughts about you should count?

Only one.  YOURS.

You will discover that after a few months, people bore with marital drama and move on.

Just a few thoughts......been there, happy to have taken the leap.

[capybara]

Thank you all...

I did tell him last night. We talked for over an hour and it was hard to stick to it, but I managed. And this morning he was so devastated and so sweet. I agreed to go to couples counselling tonight.

I feel SOOO GUILTY, and so sad, and so afraid of the future.

I told him I am not moving out until we come to an agreement about the children. So right now I am in the basement. But I did agree to move out once the arrangement about the children is in place.

I am not worried in terms of violence, and there are not really documents I am afraid he will destroy. (I do have financial info safe.)

I feel so bad for him, I feel so bad that I have family and friends who will support me and I don't think he really has anyone.

Two of the kids are in counselling. The oldest (teenager) doesn't want to, but I have an initial appointment booked for him and I hope he will agree to go. Weirdly, I feel like the last year of couples counselling - as well as his own therapy - has helped BPDH in his behaviour with the kids a lot, and their relationships are much stronger than they used to be.

I spoke to a lawyer this morning.

I am just overwhelmed by my emotions in all this, and by the guilt. And grieving what I thought we had.

[capybara]

Last night we went to couples counselling and he gave me a letter about what has been going on with him this whole time.... It was very moving and there was much crying. Of course he also asked me to stay, at least until the end of the year (which I had promised to do in the late spring).

I feel like the most important outcome from that meeting was that he has agreed to stop seeing an inexperienced therapist and instead, start seeing a c-PTSD/childhood trauma specialist, who works with adults and who our couples therapist described as "perfect" for him. I think that's really hopeful, for him and for our kids regardless of the relationship outcome.

I am still staying in the basement, I am still seeing a lawyer next week, and I realized that I do still want to separate. I am struggling on whether to frame the separation as temporary or permanent. It is so hard for me to say no to him. And I don't want to distress the kids any more than I have to.

[Arkhangelsk]

This is very much like my situation was. 

I told him very clearly I was done and this sort of behavior began.  I found that I needed to begin not really answering him, or telling him I would think about things.  The only reason I think he finally consented to the divorce after fighting it for almost three years was because I think he hoped he could earn his way back. 

I did not like feeling pushed that way.  But I finally decided that I had done what I could to be honest and that it was not my fault if he refused to listen, or decided to construe my later silence as a sign of hope.  Because if I had kept getting sucked into the conversation or his grief, I would never have made it out.  And out here is so very, very good.

[Spygirl]

Capybara

I think its great that he will make the effort to go see someone. Continue on your path, but see what happens. It wont take you long to figure out if its for show or if real effort is being made. It seems in rare cases it improves. Maybe it will be yours.

In my situation, my pdex went on and on about wanting to be married and fix things, but consistently continued to bully, rage, and make no effort to work on himself. So despite the words, the actions said it all. I was glad i continued the path, or i would have lost 9 months.

[capybara]

Told him last night i still want to separate and he went from sweet to hostile and ... confusing. He want me to leave for a week, i think? And still do couples counseling if we separate? And of course, i need to work on my problems.

One day at a time. We are taking turns being out of the house this weekend. I am seeing a lawyer this week.

[Spygirl]

It can be really difficult for a pd to deal with someone they have been able to manipulate for so long, that then is not controllable.

[hhaw]

I believe the piece, in divorcing a PD, that came too late for me was.....

we're always going to come up short when going to court with someone willing to lie, cheat and steal, IME.

Truth telling, understating bc that's more codependent's style, puts us at a huge disadvantage with a PD.

When we give them the benefit of the doubt, and extend compassion, and operate under failr play rules....
bc we feel fear, obligation and guilt.....

we suffer.

I get that, now, and I certainly didn't understand that before tossing around the word DIVORCE.

Had I understood it, I would have done EVERYTHING differently.

I would have limited the harm to my children, the money wasted in the courts, and the trauma to myself, and everyone involved.  I would have saved myself years in  court, likely, and received a completely different outcome.

We never know which PDs will employ a scorthed earth policy....
that means they'll destroy themselves just to destroy you, and maybe the kids, bc they know that will harm you the most.

The courts, and onlookers don't understand PD behaviors.  They're more likely to think you're crazy for explaining their behaviors, or to ask the stupid questions... "What DID YOU DO TO HIM TO MAKE HIM DO THAT"?

This is a very weak, demoralizing position to enter into a legal contract with an attorney who thinks you're a nightmare client bc you're freaked out, weepy maybe, or GOD FORBID, sarcastic or defensive.

Male attorneys will tell you outright that bitchy females are unpleasant to look at.  You'll be punished for behaving in a manner that doesn't please egocentric attorneys, and typically the best attorneys have a little PD going on too.

Your attorney will be your best tool.

YOU will be attemtping to guide this process, and you don't have any information to do that.

I will say this.... look for an attorney who
1)  Knows all the Judges in your County, is highly respected, and has practiced high conflict family law.

THEY WILL ALL SAY THEY'VE SEEN IT ALL, but they are lying, or ignorant to the fact surrounding divorce with a PD.  Sometimes they're just so wrapped up in their power plays and eagerness to win that they can't understand what they're seening, so they assume everything is about typical marital struggles.... the ones who see women a certain way are maddening to deal with, but you might NEED one of them to deal with your particular Judge.

HIRE SOMEONE YOU TRUST, and seems to get the high conflict PD struggle.  I found that ex Distract Attorneys had the kind of expereince to give them that kind understanding. 

Once you hire an attorney it's difficult to change horses, so BE VERY CHOOSEY, and do your homework FIRST.

You'll have to come up with a retainer fee.  Sometimes it's 10K, like I paid my first attorney. 

The second attorney wanted 25K bc he wanted to me go away.... he outright told me I was his worst nightmare client..... but I came up with the money bc an ex DA attorney TOLD ME he got my Judge through law school, and my Judge LOVED him. 

In  order to gain my attorney's compliance, I took  my BIL's advice and began chugging a beer in the parking lot before meeting with that attorney..... his ego was HUGE!  Such a pric*, but he was MY horse.... I needed to pet him, feed, him, and ride him into that courtroom, so that's what I did.  I stopped complaining about his egregious treatment of me..... he actually said we'd "date" if it didn't "work out" with my husband.  Now, that attorney knew I was being threatened, and he told me my fear made me look bitchy, so I needed to calm down, or I'd be punished.   He said he'd already had a client killed, and had an attempt made on his life... he shrugged... it was no big deal TO HIM, and if my husband wanted me dead, I'd be dead.  Stop looking like a bitch,  or else... hence the beer. hence the "I don't know what changed, but you're different today, we might date" drill, which made me throw up in my mouth.  I threw up in my mouth a lot over that year and a half of GETTING ZERO done in divorce court with over 100K spent,  and you know what?

The system is broken, particularly when PDs are lying, cheating,  stealing, and making up stories that make MORE SENSE THAN THE TRUTH, which makes us look crazy when telling it, so please.....

now that you have time to be careful.....

be careful while you still can.   I promise you'll regret playing fair, and doing right by the PD if he jumpes sideways on you, and if you're posting on this board, it's likely he will.   He's learned where all your buttons are, what makes you tick, what you care about,  and he'll go right to those things, escalating as he goes, until he gains your compliance, IME.  You should really think that through.

Or not. 

Good luck

[11JB68]

Hhaw, what would you do differently that would have saved you time and, gulp, $100k?

[hhaw]

I would have taken that first 10K and hired a private eye to help me document my case against an ASPD N stbx.

I would have called the best 4 criminal attorneys in my city, and asked them who they'd hire to represent then or their siter, daughter,  etc. 

I WOULD HAVE ASKED FOR REFERRALS FOR PRIVATE EYES from those criminal attorneys.  The best ones have excellent PIs, who think outside the box, and get the job done. 

I would have had my case figured out, before I filed for divorce, bc I would have had evidence, and a great attorney I trusted to help me pull it all together.

BTW I tried to hire a kick arse female attorney when I fired my first attorney, but she was out of the State, and I had a court date coming up.  I hired the azz instead,  and he was a fighter, but he made me FEEEL like I was being operated on by men, and I had to just be still, eyes covered, and allow them to cut on me (fig.)   

I ended up hiring that kick azz female attorney later on, for a different case, and she did the work of 5 male civil attorneys.  She rocked those cha cha heels, and she fought 5 cases at a go, and she pulled them all together neatly to get me the result I needed to end 15 years in courtrooms. 

I will say this about kic ars trial attorneys... .their egos are HUGE.  They often will tear you down, before they rise up, and do the work you need them to do.  They're sometimes PD, cruel, and I've bad one throw papers in my face.... by the end of all our months working on cases together, I wasn't afraid of her anymore, and her ranting didn't phase me.

When she threatened me, said she was done working on the case when  the copier stopped working... I did what I had to do to fix that copier.  When she pretended she wasn't going to keep working on my case, or didn't understand what I was trying to say.... meaning she beat on the table,a nd told me I had NO evidence.... she completely freaked me out, and I used that chemical dump to pull together evidence, make copies, and pull it all together into a file that I SHOWED HER, so she understood what the case was, what evidence she had to work with, and how we would win our case.

Attonreys are often jaded, and have 20 cases going at a time.  IF we understand they're going to have good days and bad days, days they challenge us, and days they rise and fight like hell for us.... maybe we stay calmer and take the bad days with the good.

I made sure I had evidence handy so that when it was needed in court I HANDED IT TO HER.  Even though she dismissed lots of evidence as not helpful, she saw how it WAS helpful time and again, and I didn't hold a grudge, or rub her nose in it.  I pulled it out when she glanced at me, and I politely handed it to her like a legal secretary, and I sent her strength and positive energy as I handed it over.

I also would have had my husband arrested the first time he assaulted me.  I would have had him arrested each subsequent time, even though I had little children to pick up, or activities to get them to.... I WOULD HAVE FILED THOSE REPORTS AND HAD HIM ARRESTED EVERY TIME.  For everything.  My second attorney told me to call the police if my husband tossed the tv button to me too hard...... I didn't calle when he choked me off my feet, and I didn't call them when he slapped me in the face, and I didn't call them when he drove by the house at 4am during a TRO.   I NEEDED those police reports to show the Judge who we were dealing with.  Thank God I smartened up, and got scared enough to finally reporting everything, but by then the police were angry I didn't file that first report. 

I sabotaged myself by appearing to be unsure about the divorce.  The truth is... the PDs will make promises IF WE JUST DO A, or B or C... be nice, whatever.  Don't sleep with the PD after you file, and always assume they'll lie about it, even if you don't so, don't fail to cover your arse.

IF the court feels you aren't sure what you want, they'll treat you like a loony, and that usually doesn't work to your advantage, IME.

Put together a good plan AND STICK WITH IT.

Don't fear trial.  I spent a lot of time freaking out about court dates, when I should have been fearlessly heading there, bc it was the only way out for me, and I never got there.  The courts push us to stay married.  They push us to settle, and that's impossibl;e with PDs who are pathologically unable to settle anything, IME.  I find the courts push the non PD parent to settle, and they push hard, IME. 

I wouldn't have allowed myself to be pressured into making deals that weakened my position over and over again.

I wouldn't have wasted time trying to settle OR HOPING TO SETTLE.  I would have spent an hour, given my short list, and gone home when the PD said NO.  If the PD said YES,  I would have forced the attonreys to hand write that AGREEMENT right there, and with everyone signing it, have it filed, stamped and get my copy before leaving the courthouse. 

PDs will SAY they'll agree to A, B and C, then the atotnreys go back to their offices to "craft" the Agreement, which means they begin arguing over language and stupid things and the next thing you know you're thousands into AGAIN!.

Just say NO, and insist that Agreement is witten out,  signed and filed THAT DAY, but don't allow the attorneys to go to their offices and arugue.  The PD will end up saying they want to go to trial anyway, and you'll be shattered, over and over... until you finally get your day in court.

She with the best documents wins.  She with the best journal, best witnesses, best advocates, ability to hold yourself steady, and not get baited into reacting by the PD, bc the PD will always count on baiting you to draw attention away from himself.

You hold steady, you don't get defensive, or roll your eyes..... you don't lose faith when the PD pulls a stunt that hits you like a punch in the gut.... you fall down for a minute, emotionally, then get back in there and figure out how to disprove the dumb thing they accused you of doing, bc IME the PDs make accusation after accusation and keep you too busy to build a case against them.  They'll jerk your kids around, theaten them... nothing like an e mail stating they have the right to hit your kids, with the statutes on corporal punishement included, kwim? 

I would have gotten threats on tape before the PD knew I was documenting evidence.

I would have kept all  my evidence in a place the PD stbx didn't have access to. 

I would have chosen really solid people to trust, and not the people I trusted. 

SOmetimes people believe the PD, and I'm talking family and friends.... you have to be very smart about who you trust, and who you don't share information with. 

I would have asked for help sooner, and more often.

I would have realized I was up against something I had no experience with,  sought out people who knew about PDs, psychopaths, and going to court with them.

It took me too long to realize what was happening to me.  That kind of terrifying truth goes in and out of focus.... and that's what makes us agree to stupid things with the PD.  They PROMISE to make things go better, to give us the divorce, to not harm our children IF WE JUST... instert stupid thing designed to weaken our position.

Honestly, I wish I'd had him arrested, then treated him like a stranger with no power over me, or ability to harm me.  I wish I'd put up barriers, gotten a killer dog, and told my neighbors what I was up against.

I would have sought out a good trauma T, with Buddhist leanings and learned how to stay present, be mindful, and calm myself down, bc I was in fight or flight mode for 15 years, and it tears your life and immune system apart.

We can learn how to come up underneat the alarm bells,  regain control over our hijacked biology through breathing, and benefitted from access to my frontal cortex where problem solving and logic and creativity happen.

Had I done those things, or any combination..... things would have been much better for everyone, including the ASPD N stbx.

I don't typically post on divorcing board, but the OP is at the start of her process, and she has children involved. 

Most people on this board make the same mistakes.  We tend to be giving, caring people, and it doesn't work for us in this situation, IME.

Most people have to learn the hard way, and I was one of those people.

[Arkhangelsk]

I had a lot better luck with my lawyer than you, HHaw - but think you are right that hiring one who can handle these types of cases is key.  I am really sorry that we are in this little club of people who have true enemies in our exes.

It sounds like our cases were similar in that not fighting just tends to lead to bigger and bigger attacks.  But fighting also gets expensive.  I am a similar amount of money in the hole.

I wanted to underscore a few of the points of advice below as well:
- I wish I had gotten a PFA on the few occasions when ex was violent.  I did not because I was sure he would lie and accuse me of hitting him.  And he would have.  I still wish I had documented these moments.
- It took me a while to detach and simply be ready to make the best case - and therefore put my ex into the worst light.  But, if you are going to go to court, you need a firm and consistent narrative.  And you need to know what you want. 
- Some of your family and friends will take your ex's side.  This will suck. 
- Make a list of what you cannot compromise on and why.  Be very clear with your lawyer and the court about it.  Document all incidents that prove why you will not back down on this thing.  For example, I fight all agreements that include language that says my ex and I need to "confer and agree."  I have a huge file of correspondence that shows why this is a terrible idea.  I took it to a conciliation with the judge and said, "Devastating strings of emails are all that happen when you try to make us agree and confer.  He will not agree to even the most basic thing and I do not want to be back in front of your for the 3rd year in a row about signing the kids up for the science fair."
- Seek a talented trauma therapist.  This is key to spending less money in court.  Some of this stuff is stuff you have to get the answers for from inside yourself.  This is key to picking the right battles.

[11JB68]

Is a lot of this lengthy and expensive court stuff related to child/custody issues? Is this processany easier when there are no children (ie child is grown) and it's all financial?

[hhaw]

It's easier when there aren't any children involved, yes.

It's just two consenting adults, and sometimes the non  gives everything to the PD, and walks away, glad to be rid of them.

I can't imagine doing that with children.

[capybara]

I think it must be easier with no children. If we had no children, or if they were out of the house,  I would have walked out.

The money stuff is different in different places. Where I live, some of it is very clear-cut, with little to argue about. Other parts are more open to argument and I would be inclined to just walk away from those aspects.