Fairness in Finances

[Crushed_Dad]

Submitted my opening gambit to ex regarding the finances 6 weeks ago. Looks like she's getting her butt in gear to make a response, however just been doing some of own homework and have discovered the following......

Thanks to the wonderful way the UK chooses to had out money to people who in the most part should never receive it (and withhold it from those that genuinely do), I find myself regretting some of the offer put forward.

Turns out if she goes ahead as I've outlined she'll have a tax-free income in excess of 39K GBP a year with no mortgage to pay. this is combination of 16.1K child maintenance and 18.2K of government handouts and some cash in hand work.  As a point of reference 30K is the national median salary.

Whilst my income after tax is almost double that, I will be responsible for all of the following,

14K in mortgage
14.6K to pay for the costs of running 2 cars (yes hers as is my name) and a rail season ticket for my 2 hr commute
16.2K in child maintenance.

Anyway after finishing all of the number crunching I worked out it'll take me about 5 years to afford a deposit on a house so I can leave my fathers. During that time she'll have been able to stash away 3K a year in savings and go on a holiday worth 4K a year with the kids.... each year for 5 years!!!

Likelihood of her seeing some reasoning here and say, take on the responsibility for the car finance, tax for a car she alone uses? Or, when she moves her new man in an offer to take on some of he mortgage?

Looks like I may have to amend it...... I'm not expecting to be pleasantly surprised by the her response.

[Crushed_Dad]

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I work and am out 13 hours a day, earn very good money but only have my fathers' spare room to show for it.

On the hand, she blackmailed me so not to have to work, blackmailed me for house proceeds and allowances, has a mortgage paid, car paid, and a very decent child maintenance allowance.

Yet, to top it off, the UK govt is happy to chuck another 18.2K of cash towards her for no reason whatsoever. She is physically and mentally perfectly capable to working only chooses not to. 

I can't complain too much here as no-one is homeless or close to poverty but nonetheless, when 75% of your take home pay is attributed to another person who actively sabotaged you're entire life and chooses to do nothing, you can't help but feel a little resentful.

[NumbLotus]

What you have described is indeed a free ride for her and no such luck for you.

It really isn't fair and I hope it somehow ends up shaking out more fairly for you. I agree that it's ridiculous.

[Kat54]

That's a tough pill to swallow, yes I would feel resentful.  Its not fair. 

[GettingOOTF]

Have you spoken to an attorney?

If the car is in your name you can take it back can't you? Why are you paying the mortgage? Generally on a divorce the family home is sold or the person who stays buys out the other one.

Child Maintenance is for the children.

Again, have you spoken to an attorney?

You can withdraw or amend your offer at any time. It is next to impossible to change these agreements when the divorce goes through, which is why you really should have professional advice here. 

[pushit]

I would also advise talking to a lawyer. 

I know nothing about the UK, but in my jurisdiction (in the U.S.) there are laws that allow the courts to impute someone's potential income to determine what fair spousal maintenance should be.  They call it "divorce flu" when someone decides they can't work anymore in order to get more from their ex, or when a high paid CEO decides they are going to become a barista at Starbucks.  In that situation, the courts can base maintenance on what that person should really be making, so the spouse paying maintenance doesn't totally get screwed for no reason.  I would find out if there are any similar laws in your jurisdiction.

[BeautifulCrazy]

In Canada that would never happen, that you pay the entire mortgage for a house you don't live in. Same with the cars. She would be responsible for her half the house and the vehicle she drives, whether that means selling house and cars and dividing funds or her buying out her half of those assets (possibly even by having that deducted from any spousal support payments going forward).

[GettingOOTF]

In Canada that would never happen, that you pay the entire mortgage for a house you don't live in. Same with the cars. She would be responsible for her half the house and the vehicle she drives, whether that means selling house and cars and dividing funds or her buying out her half of those assets (possibly even by having that deducted from any spousal support payments going forward).

It's the same in the UK. This is what he is offering her, not what an attorney has determined is a "fair" and likely court outcome.

Crushed, are you hoping that' your offer will get her to change her behavior or her mind? It won't. And what ever divorce terms are agreed upon will be what you are stuck with for life.

At some point you will be in a better place mentally and emotionally and you will have to live with the decisions you made when you were  in your current state of mind. 

I can tell you from experience that being the "bigger person" in this situation does not help you or change the other person. I left my marriage with nothing because I was the bigger person. My ex didn't care. He took and took until I had nothing left to give and then he moved on to someone else who had more to give him.

An attorney will help you make the best decision for you and your future goals. They can help you protect your and your children's futures.

[Crushed_Dad]

I have spoken to solicitors....

The general rule of thumb here is to try and come to agreements over children and finances amicably (and with minimal legal costs) unless those avenues are simply not negotiable. Once those agreements are in place verbally. You get the divorce out the way and then try and put them in to practice. They can be legally ratified if required.

For clarity as was previously mentioned, child maintenance is an absolute given. There's no question about this in terms of payment. I will always fulfil my parental responsibility.

Beyond that my hope was to form as completely separate households as possible, however, given the mortgage is joint, my ex doesn't work and  I work in the financial services, I have to ensure that all credit agreements are paid. The car is in my name for 2 more years. Once up there is balloon payment of £6.5K she will have to service is she wishes to keep it.

Like I say my initial offering was an opening gambit. She has yet to respond (in over 4 weeks) so I'm probably just being anxious about the reaction, her expectations etc. At the same time I'm annoyed that he's able to obtain so much herself with little or no effort, and whether she's going to acknowledge her good fortune here by being more reasonable in terms of taking on more of the financial responsibility.

I guess we wait and see.

[Findingmyvoice]

Crushed,
It seems like you are willingly offering her the house and car.
I think your offer should be that she take over her own transportation costs or the car gets sold.
Same with the home, if she can't contribute in some way it has to be sold.  No one in this world gets free accommodation just because.  She would be crazy to turn down this offer and frankly I think this is a raw deal for you.

I disagree with BeutifulCrazy that this would never happen in Canada.  This was almost my exact situation from the time I separated until the house was sold.  I have the kids, exBPDw lived in the house and I paid for everything plus spousal support and my ex didn't pay a dime to support the kids.
The courts wouldn't do anything.  it seems like judges hate to actually make a decision.  It is extremely frustrating. 
We couldn't get back in the house, multiple orders for me to collect my belongings were ignored.  Recently we went to regular chambers to ask for child support and all her lawyer had to do was say that this was "too complicated" and now it goes to special chambers which is a 6 month wait and another 5 to 10 k in legal fees for both of us.
This is coming up on 2 years in April.  Financially, I have spent almost 60k in the last 2 years to support her in indirect support and another 18k a year in spousal.  She also gets 36k a year in govt supports.
For reference, the median salary in Canada is around 70k per year.
I won't even mention the legal fees because it makes my stomach turn.  The lawyers make a mockery of the system and know exactly how to manipulate things.  The lawyers she hires seem to know exactly how to draw things out so that nothing gets done.

I agree that in a way you are forced to keep the house up, I felt the same.  If you stop making payments they forclose on the home and your credit rating is screwed, good luck getting a mortgage after that.
A high school friend of mine ended up claiming bankruptcy because he was in a similar situation.  He couldn't get the ex out of the house, she was an addict, she trashed it, threw big parties, kicked holes in the walls, pissed on the floor.  He had the kids and couldn't afford to keep paying for the home and still make ends meet.  She effectively ruined the next 10 years of his life financially.

At least in my situation we were able to sell the home.  exBPDw did agree to that thankfully.  Strangely enough she moved into a similar home only blocks away.  There is no way that she should be able to afford this home with no job, its a new two story with attached garage and hot tub and pond in the back, but I guess she will eventually figure that out.

Don't hold your breath on her response.  I have made 3 offers that are in her favor financially and have not heard back on a single one.  I also tried just throwing out ideas and hoping she would respond but the responses I got were completely unreasonable.  In order for me to get back in the home, she wanted me to buy her out at 50k more than what the home was worth.  Even when it came time to sell, she was triangulating between me and the real estate agent to inflate the price above market value.  The agent kept telling her that the price was too high, we eventually listed it high because exBPDw wouldn't agree to list it unless we went with her price, so it sat on the market for a month with only one or two viewings until the agent convinced her to agree to lower the price.  Don't get me started on the difficulties when we actually started to get offers.  ExBPDw wanted to counter-offer higher than our asking price!!

If your ex does in fact have a PD, my guess is that you will end up in court.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is so frustrating to deal with these disordered people.

[NumbLotus]

I don't see why CD would "have" to make mortgage payments post divorce. He does now, sure. But remortgaging is standard during divorce to separate the assets. So even if he would like to pay or help pay to maintain the home, he doesn't have to have his name on the mortgage.

It also befs the question of whose asset the home is post divorce. Is only his name on the deed? Can he kick her out at any time and repossess the home? Can he repossess it after the youngest child moves out? Who will inherit the home in the event of his death, while the children are still young or after they have grown up?

I realize repossession would probably be immediately preceded by the house being trashed, but probably the value of the home will well exceed whatever batshit she does to it.

If you are thinking you want the mortgage in your name because you don't trust her to lay it, you could pay the mortgage yourself and still have it be in her name. Banks are happy to take valid payments from anyone.

Assuming the car is a lease. You can see how much to break the lease. You could just purchase outright a basic working vehicle for her, doesn't have to be a Mercedes. Of course you don't have to purchase anything at all, just going from the idea that you want to take care of the kids with the least disruption, and making sure there is a vehicle is part of that when you can't trust her to take care of it.

She doesn't want to work now, and maybe you're okay with that with young kids, but perhaos your offer could include a change after the youngest is school-aged under the assumption she will work at least part time while the kids are in school. Of course she will likely just have another child with another man by then but that's not your problem. You don't have to maintain her with the assumption she would never work even when your kids are older.

Your offer is like your wife winning the lottery.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[NumbLotus]

Whoops, I forgot my disclaimer.

I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Carry on 

[Crushed_Dad]

Crushed,
It seems like you are willingly offering her the house and car.
I think your offer should be that she take over her own transportation costs or the car gets sold.
Same with the home, if she can't contribute in some way it has to be sold.  No one in this world gets free accommodation just because.  She would be crazy to turn down this offer and frankly I think this is a raw deal for you.

I disagree with BeutifulCrazy that this would never happen in Canada.  This was almost my exact situation from the time I separated until the house was sold.  I have the kids, exBPDw lived in the house and I paid for everything plus spousal support and my ex didn't pay a dime to support the kids.
The courts wouldn't do anything.  it seems like judges hate to actually make a decision.  It is extremely frustrating. 
We couldn't get back in the house, multiple orders for me to collect my belongings were ignored.  Recently we went to regular chambers to ask for child support and all her lawyer had to do was say that this was "too complicated" and now it goes to special chambers which is a 6 month wait and another 5 to 10 k in legal fees for both of us.
This is coming up on 2 years in April.  Financially, I have spent almost 60k in the last 2 years to support her in indirect support and another 18k a year in spousal.  She also gets 36k a year in govt supports.
For reference, the median salary in Canada is around 70k per year.
I won't even mention the legal fees because it makes my stomach turn.  The lawyers make a mockery of the system and know exactly how to manipulate things.  The lawyers she hires seem to know exactly how to draw things out so that nothing gets done.

I agree that in a way you are forced to keep the house up, I felt the same.  If you stop making payments they forclose on the home and your credit rating is screwed, good luck getting a mortgage after that.
A high school friend of mine ended up claiming bankruptcy because he was in a similar situation.  He couldn't get the ex out of the house, she was an addict, she trashed it, threw big parties, kicked holes in the walls, pissed on the floor.  He had the kids and couldn't afford to keep paying for the home and still make ends meet.  She effectively ruined the next 10 years of his life financially.

At least in my situation we were able to sell the home.  exBPDw did agree to that thankfully.  Strangely enough she moved into a similar home only blocks away.  There is no way that she should be able to afford this home with no job, its a new two story with attached garage and hot tub and pond in the back, but I guess she will eventually figure that out.

Don't hold your breath on her response.  I have made 3 offers that are in her favor financially and have not heard back on a single one.  I also tried just throwing out ideas and hoping she would respond but the responses I got were completely unreasonable.  In order for me to get back in the home, she wanted me to buy her out at 50k more than what the home was worth.  Even when it came time to sell, she was triangulating between me and the real estate agent to inflate the price above market value.  The agent kept telling her that the price was too high, we eventually listed it high because exBPDw wouldn't agree to list it unless we went with her price, so it sat on the market for a month with only one or two viewings until the agent convinced her to agree to lower the price.  Don't get me started on the difficulties when we actually started to get offers.  ExBPDw wanted to counter-offer higher than our asking price!!

If your ex does in fact have a PD, my guess is that you will end up in court.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is so frustrating to deal with these disordered people.

Anything that's done willingly is for the sake of my children, not her. The car is for the 2 years left on the finance and because it's in my name, I have to honour that so the kids can get to school and I cannot have adverse credit issues for work reasons. Once the finance is up she's on her own with that one.

It's a similar issue with the house, 1. I don't want the adverse credit/finance issues. If that happens I can no longer work in my industry, and would have to take a minimum of a 50% pay hit. 2. and more importantly, I'll never not provide a roof over the children's heads and that house is the cheapest possible way of doing so in the area where they're happy and settled with friends. Ultimately it will be sold when the youngest is 18 and although I wont get back all the mortgage payments I made, I ought to get 50% of the proceeds after costs. Unfortunately it means paying her accommodation costs and her seeing the benefit. Not much I can do about it as she'll refuse and block the house sale. UK courts will side with her on this because of the kids.

Finding - I do think there'll be a response because of the following,
1. She's accepted the status-quo in terms of finances whereas she's actually due an extra 4K in year in child maintenance. She will know that.
2. She'll want to move her new man in ASAP, and can only do so with my approval/consent/compensation. If  she's moves him in we're in breach of our leasehold arrangement (shared ownership basis). I will be straight on to the leaseholder if that's the case, however, should he pay me £500 a month towards the mortgage, I'd be willing to turn a blind eye to it.....

[Rose1]

Does she know your job relies heavily on a good credit rating? Please put into place safety and backups. Ie make sure the car is not in your name so you don't get the fines and unpaid tolls. Only the mortgage. Investigate getting out early. Same with the house. Be prepared for her to vandalise. DH had his ex do 10,000 damage while refusing to let court appointed estate agent in. She did this by systematically smashing the bathroom up and letting dogs pee on the carpet and ruin underlying floor.

Have a clause in the agreement to cover off damage which allows you to sell the house should they happen.

Please do not think your ex will cooperate. If she does, good. But most don't. I understand your concern for the kids but it won't do them any good getting in the middle of you and an ex with a grudge. They do take things considerably further than we ever contemplate.

Cya. With your boss too. Make sure your HR department is aware and that you might have some slander happening.
I worked in financial services so know what you mean. Exbpdh made threats but didn't know the corporate system well enough to carry them out. If he had found someone who did he would have. be very careful and use your knowledge of fraud to protect yourself.

[Crushed_Dad]

Hi Rose, I don't expect her to damage the house. The children mean too much to her for that, it wouldn't hurt me. Any requests for finances are ignored.

Her vitriol has/was always directed at me and until her new man takes on the mantle (I expect about 3-4 months when she'll have "enough" on him to use against him) it still will be.

work are well informed and know enough about the situation. Her email has been blocked here and her number flagged.

We actually spoke yesterday on the phone. Apparently she wants to get an agreement in place but her legal side is dragging. she re-iterated her intention not to "make things difficult for me" financially. I don't believe a word she says so the waiting game continues.

[Rose1]

As long as you are aware. That's good then. We often make sure he mistake of assuming things will go on as usual and they rarely do.

DH ended up with a 40k fraudulent credit card bill for credit cards his ex had taken out in both her name and his. How? Who knows. Against all bank procedure.

[Crushed_Dad]

As long as you are aware. That's good then. We often make sure he mistake of assuming things will go on as usual and they rarely do.

DH ended up with a 40k fraudulent credit card bill for credit cards his ex had taken out in both her name and his. How? Who knows. Against all bank procedure.

My ex is previously bankrupt, only through me could she ever have got that house. She can't apply for anything or get in any trouble without ruining her children's future. I will be reminding her of that fact.

[Findingmyvoice]

As long as you are aware. That's good then. We often make sure he mistake of assuming things will go on as usual and they rarely do.

DH ended up with a 40k fraudulent credit card bill for credit cards his ex had taken out in both her name and his. How? Who knows. Against all bank procedure.

Something similar happened to me with health insurance.  exBPDw took out a joint health insurance policy in both of our names.  I had no involvement in taking out the policy but somehow she was able to name me as insured.  then after a few months she stopped paying and had the bills addressed to me.  Again without involving or notifying me.
Then I start getting overdue and cancellation notices in the mail and threats of turning over to a collection agency all without me ever having signed up or agreed to the service.
I was able to sort it out and get the debt eliminated, but it's surprising what they can do to screw you over.  I would think with a joint policy they would need both signatures to open the policy and ditto for making changes to the policy.
She also tried dumping her utility bills on me by adding my name to the mailing address and having it mailed to me after she defaulted on the payments.
Some of the bills I had to pay (because our home was jointly owned), some they sent the collection agency after her.  The bills she had to pay she is trying to get me to reimburse her 50% through her lawyer.
She did the same with our joint insurance policies, I asked her repeatedly to split the policies and she would not.  Instead she issued a stop payment and the policy was cancelled, I couldn't get her to verify whether or not she had taken out a policy in her own name.  This eventually was turned over to collections as well and I am still trying to get it sorted out.

[Liftedfog]

I think your offer is too generous.  Yet she will ask for more and would throw you under the bus in a heartbeat.  That's what pds do. I've been at it since 2014 and over 150,000 of legal fees to money hungry lawyers.  But ex is unstable and disordered.  The latest offer I gave was in his favour and that was 6 months ago. Still no agreement. Heading to trial is more likely now. But my point is if you start off giving her everything there is nothing left to really negotiate.  You could have kept the car issue as a dangling carrot so when you get fed up of her stalling you can throw in the paid car for example.  I agree with the other posters that you should not give her the house or paid car.  She should be paying her own way for those. Of course if you go to trial she could end up with all of it anyway but don't just hand those over to her.   I'm sorry for what you are going through.  I feel your pain.