Acceptance and Commitment Therapy? Plus any stories about standing up to MIL!

[spha6092]

Hi everyone, first time poster. I've been reading threads and finding it really comforting actually. Really appreciate reading everyone's stories. Thanks for sharing.

We're in the thick of things right now. I finally snapped this year after we had a second kid. I wrote a long email to my MIL which I'm proud of. I called her out on some of her bullshit, the stuff she would always say and do and never follow through. It was very assertive and clear, and I didn't resort to name calling and insults, though now I wish I had  Her response was to deny completely and shut me down. For the first time in her life, someone actually stood up to her and it did rattle her.

I'm SO glad I wrote that email because her response finally exposed what she really is to me and I finally, FINALLY got it: she's a covert narc. Suddenly the last 12 years of my life make complete sense. I understand why DH's parents divorced - and why his dad re-partnered with an OVERT narc 

DH is in a highly toxic enmeshed family. We've been in marriage counselling for a few months and DH just started his own course of therapy. So he's mostly not in denial anymore though as I keep telling him, it's about 10x worse than he thinks. The therapist has recommended he try Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - has that worked for anyone else in this situation?

I've said to him that even with the two kids I'm willing to divorce as I don't really want to expose my young kids to his family going forward. I would actually be fine as I found my own autonomy long ago from a highly enmeshed family and am financially stable etc. I'd be happy to be a single mum even but eventually it wouldn't be that hard to find someone who would actually put me first, for a change. Of course I love my DH and he's really great in so many ways, but until he learns how to stand up for himself and his family, he'll never be the husband or father he could be. There has literally not been a single time in the past 12 years where he's protected me and stood up for me. When we first got together it was his narcissistic ex-gf until eventually I issued an ultimatum, so we've been here before in a very obvious way.

We're at the point where I think NC is the only viable option as he's been trying to set boundaries and my SIL and MIL are making his life hell. Though a lot of it is his own internalised guilt, they can still control him from the other side of the city, even without saying anything anyway.

Right now I would LOVE to send another email - this time to both of them even. They haven't dared to confront me directly but I know exactly what they're thinking. I want to tell them how absolutely disgusted I am with their selfish and abusive behaviour. That they both need therapy to work through their enmeshment. Would it actually make things worse since we're already at such a low point?! It would be good for me to feel my own power. DH talked to his sister the other day about how upsetting it was that they think I'm the evil, manipulative wife of course. She claimed that "they don't know me" because it doesn't occur to them that maybe I'm telling the truth. DH said that her clam is crazy because they've literally known me for 12 years and we have spent a LOT of time together. I have always bent over backwards to be good and thoughtful, which is how I normally am anyway. Though perhaps it's true they don't know me, because of course I always downplay myself around them given how deeply insecure they are. My in-laws will literally be two of the few people currently in my life who don't like me as my life is full of dozens of good people. I've been talking to a bunch of people about this battle and they're with me. Going through this again is exhausting but it also makes me proud of the work I did to break free from my own family to get to where I am. With my family, actually, we do have a relationship with them so I know it's possible to have contact - but not sure it will work in my DH's case.

Anyway - I would love to hear if anyone took the confrontation route, knowing it might not make a difference anyway - but at least you felt better. Thanks!!

[Starboard Song]

Right now I would LOVE to send another email - this time to both of them even. They haven't dared to confront me directly but I know exactly what they're thinking. I want to tell them how absolutely disgusted I am with their selfish and abusive behaviour. That they both need therapy to work through their enmeshment. Would it actually make things worse since we're already at such a low point?!

My in-laws will literally be two of the few people currently in my life who don't like me as my life is full of dozens of good people. I've been talking to a bunch of people about this battle and they're with me.

Going through this again is exhausting but it also makes me proud of the work I did to break free from my own family to get to where I am.

We did. It did not make things better. We had to do it, though. We were the flavor where there are the thousand cuts across the years and then a sudden crisis. We had a problem where a third-party's interests had to be vindicated, and that required us to stand up to them. The ensuing crisis lead to NC, that became entrenched, and 5 years have passed with not a single normal word passing between us.

I encourage people to call a spade a spade when they have to. But I think it is best to be like the Supreme Court: you only issue an opinion when necessary to resolve an actual conflict, and you issue the least opinion that will fix the problem. When we start seeking vindication by spouting off, I think we risk jumping into the same hole they are digging in. We emerge muddy, tired, and frustrated.

I promise, there is nothing you can write that will make them say, "well damn if we weren't mistaken, all this time."

Go live with those good and kind people who reliably love you. Let the bad guys go.


Oh, and welcome to Out of the FOG! It is obvious you are in the right place, and I am so glad you did find us. I hope the community provides you ongoing learning and strength. We feel like our crisis was a crash PhD program in PDs, and I think it has made me a better and stronger person in all situations. That's no silver lining. This experience has sucked. But scars are made of strong stuff.

[Pepin]

I agree wholeheartedly with Starboard Song.  Don't get muddy with them.  Rather, you and DH must unify and act accordingly.  I guarantee you both will be untouchable if you are on the same page about how to set boundaries with the inlaws.  The way I see it (and wish for myself but still working on it with my DH) is that the marriage comes first and then the nuclear family.  Everything else comes after that.  This means that you are a wife first and DH is a husband first.  He is not a son first anymore.  He gave that up when he married you.  When you started a family you became a mother and he became a father....thus pushing the roles of son and daughter even further down the list of responsibilities. 

Husband
Father
Son

Wife
Mother
Daughter

For me, when it is broken down into simple lists like this, it becomes obvious where priorities lie.  I feel that these lists apply to all situations.  If for example you have a gathering and the in-laws are present, DH must give his attention to you before anything else and your children.  No exceptions.  Seems harsh but those are his duties.  No, he cannot go off and be a son like his mother probably wants him to do. 

Your DH is straddling his FOO and FOC when it isn't supposed to be an issue of straddling in the first place.  And his mother is having trouble letting go because she doesn't want to give up her role.  I don't believe in matriarchs. 

Don't send anymore correspondence to your MIL.  Just change the behavior and get your DH on the same page.  Work with your therapist to set boundaries with your DH as well if he is unable to follow through and have your back.  Husbands and wives have to be unified to break enmeshment.

[spha6092]

I encourage people to call a spade a spade when they have to. But I think it is best to be like the Supreme Court: you only issue an opinion when necessary to resolve an actual conflict, and you issue the least opinion that will fix the problem. When we start seeking vindication by spouting off, I think we risk jumping into the same hole they are digging in. We emerge muddy, tired, and frustrated.

I promise, there is nothing you can write that will make them say, "well damn if we weren't mistaken, all this time."

Go live with those good and kind people who reliably love you. Let the bad guys go.

Thank you so much for talking me down from the ledge 

I really appreciate your sharing your experience. 5 years is a long time. I don't know how long NC will go with my DH's family but I doubt it will be that long. They desperately want to have a relationship with our kids, but if they do, they're going to need to behave a lot better. So let's see.

You're right. It's grubby and I would do better to stay out of it. It's freaky at how quickly they have turned. I have practically been the perfect daughter in law until one straight email where I said I wasn't happy - and now it's like I'm evil incarnate. But I predicted six months ago when I finally realised I was up against a PD that this is what would happen. That it was not personal but what I represented. So it's not surprising at all but it's not fun.

Thanks so much for the warm welcome. I feel really great about stumbling across these forums. It's funny because many months ago I was looking at the Out of the FOG website for advice because one of my good friends is a clinical psychologist and she recommended it. I hadn't realised there were forums?! If I had, I might have arrived at this point slightly earlier. I'm going to keep reading and contributing as well. Really good to hear how other people have navigated all of this complexity and difficulty.

[spha6092]

I agree wholeheartedly with Starboard Song.  Don't get muddy with them.  Rather, you and DH must unify and act accordingly.  I guarantee you both will be untouchable if you are on the same page about how to set boundaries with the inlaws.  The way I see it (and wish for myself but still working on it with my DH) is that the marriage comes first and then the nuclear family.  Everything else comes after that.  This means that you are a wife first and DH is a husband first.  He is not a son first anymore.  He gave that up when he married you.  When you started a family you became a mother and he became a father....thus pushing the roles of son and daughter even further down the list of responsibilities. 

Husband
Father
Son

Wife
Mother
Daughter

For me, when it is broken down into simple lists like this, it becomes obvious where priorities lie.  I feel that these lists apply to all situations.  If for example you have a gathering and the in-laws are present, DH must give his attention to you before anything else and your children.  No exceptions.  Seems harsh but those are his duties.  No, he cannot go off and be a son like his mother probably wants him to do. 

Your DH is straddling his FOO and FOC when it isn't supposed to be an issue of straddling in the first place.  And his mother is having trouble letting go because she doesn't want to give up her role.  I don't believe in matriarchs. 

Don't send anymore correspondence to your MIL.  Just change the behavior and get your DH on the same page.  Work with your therapist to set boundaries with your DH as well if he is unable to follow through and have your back.  Husbands and wives have to be unified to break enmeshment.

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective. I just read your post out to my husband actually because we had another tearful discussion about all of this. It's so hard. But you're right, I shouldn't have any more correspondence. And we'll try to have more of a united front. It's been hard to feel 100% faith in him because for the past six months (and for 12 years) he has always put son and brother ahead of husband and now father. Today, I hope he finally gets it. It's a painful process and I hate to see him go through it, but as I keep saying to him, I have done exactly the same thing with my own family and we are at a pretty good place with them where they get to have a role in our lives but it's contained and safe.

Will try to stick to your simple lists and maybe put them up on the door, it's a helpful reminder 

[bloomie]

spha6092 - hello and welcome! I am thankful you found us and have reached out for support and encouragement.

You have already received really important starting gate truths and insights here.

I thought to share a couple of things that have been really helpful to my own DH and myself in working through some very similar issues.

A very wise person told me something early on in my marriage and it has been so helpful to call to mind when difficult behaviors and situations arise with suspected PD family members... "We teach our family of origin how to treat our partners/spouses."

WE TEACH by how we respond, what we tolerate, what we give over to, what we prioritize or focus on consistently over time when faced with big and small decisions with an enmeshed and toxic family system. Every time your DH gives over to his FOO in a toxic situation he is reinforcing a message that he most likely doesn't want to give.

So, what I have learned and experienced is until my own DH began to 'teach' through his behaviors, choices, and attitudes that I was his first love, our family his first priority, and protecting us from harmful, unmanaged, divisive behaviors his highest responsibility, nothing changed in the dynamic with his mother and sister.

My in law family saw the equivocations and passivity and acquiescing and going along to get along at the expense of me and our family as an opportunity to assert their position as my DH's priority or at the least continue to control through fear, guilt, and obligation as they manipulated a man who had been deeply harmed and didn't even know it.

Figuring out what is your stuff, his stuff, and your stuff together seems like a good place to start to get clear on who, how, when, if to communicate and interact. It is okay for you both, with your kiddos, to quietly take a break and give yourself some space and room to work this through where it matters most - in your own home and relationship.

What helped a great deal was for my DH to do some trauma recovery work and understand the four F's (fight, flight, fawn, or freeze) when faced with what to him were highly triggering and potentially dangerous situations which I have learned is very different for all of us.

From the outside looking in, honestly, I couldn't understand why he was less able than I was to take a strong and kindly held stand against toxic behaviors, because I had always known there was something really wrong with my own FOO and began setting boundaries and coming Out of the FOG much, much earlier in life before I met him. It has taken him much longer to see how toxic and damaging his FOO paradigm can be to him and to us.

I too, had some very serious and legitimate trust issues because my own DH's knee jerk response almost always to aggressive/passive aggressive drama seeking, intrusive, engulfing family members was to give over.

Learning to stand in unity and protection over your relationship and children and develop healthy and consistent ways to respond to issues as they arise with difficult people is doable. Learning to send consistent messages to each other and family members that are grounded in your personal and familial core values about what does and does not work in relationship with your family is such worthy work and a positive and strong foundation from which to set boundaries and live in them together. Empowered and with wisdom.

A book that we read and worked through together that was really helpful is Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend. (want to mention it is faith based, but the principles are universal and very practical).

Understanding enmeshment and learning to recognize that and break free has also been of great value to us.

I don't know you and I am going out on a limb saying this, but for my own DH, it was so vital for him to have the safe space to work this out for himself and make choices for himself and with me, and even to make mistakes and slide backwards and still be regarded with love and understanding. Even when that was really hard to do for me. Enmeshment is so disempowering and fighting free from it so uncertain at times. 

My heart goes out to you both! Much good strength and wisdom to you as you continue forward together becoming the strongest of allies and partners! Keep coming back. It really helps with these very hard issues!

[spha6092]

Bloomie - thank you so much for taking the time to write such an eloquent response. It really sounds EXACTLY like our situation. Right down to my own responses. And yes I had done the same thing before I met my DH and had done it instinctually really, because i just knew I had to find a way to break free. Though even during the past 12 years since we've been together DH has seen the challenges of my family so as I keep saying to him, I'm not telling him to do anything that I haven't done myself. And also, he's seen another family's dysfunction close-up. But I feel good that I have always put him first before my FOO but somehow I had let him get away with never doing that for me. Even this year, with Mother's Day, his mother called him up to tell him what the plan was and it was presented to me like I had no choice but to acquiesce - never mind that I'd literally just had a second kid so had more than earned the right to celebrate my way. But I was pissed off. I really should have put my foot down but maybe, if I think about it, it was the beginning of getting Out of the FOG.

In a way, it's quite interesting to read all this stuff now because it explains what I have already been through with my own family. One major difference is my dad is overt, and I think in so many ways it is actually much harder to fight the insidious covert version of this problem. I had never thought that before this year.

The book sounds really good, thanks for the recommendation. We are both nerdy bookish people so having a resource like that to work through is helpful 

Thanks for the reminder of my DH needing a safe space and being forgiving when he backslides which he has done a bunch of times since we started this process but he is starting to recognise it. Because of covid it's hard for us to find the space away from each other. He doesn't even see hardly anyone else right now. I keep encouraging him to talk to the very few friends he can talk to but of course now it makes sense why he doesn't have such good friends given the enmeshment issues. I thought he was a 'lone wolf' like this dad but now I understand why.

What a year and there's still a lot of hard work to come. But in another way I'm grateful that this was the year when it finally became too much.