The Do's and Don'ts of co-parenting with a PD ex

[Boat Babe]

Hi everyone. I am putting together a parenting course for single parents who have escaped domestic abuse. Your input here would be so much appreciated by myself and so valuable to the clients.

What have you done/put in place that works for you and your kids? What are the particular challenges of parenting in this situation? What doesn't work?

Also, if any UK members here, can you provide links to useful websites and/or organisations. (Admin, I hope that's OK)

Looking forward to hearing from you. Many thanks. xxx

[oak_tree]

Well, I'm way too new to this to offer any tips, but I may want to take the course 

[Associate of Daniel]

Boat Babe, I notice you've not yet received replies to your post with suggestions.

I'm just bumping this up so that you might get some.  But it may take some time as there is so much information that could be given but maybe some hesitancies to do so.

AOD

[BeautifulCrazy]

You are right AoD, It's really such a huge topic.
Intimidating to approach.
I feel like I could sit down and take y e a r s typing! Thank you for keeping it top of list.

I actually took a similar course through the local DV center after leaving my children's father. It wasn't as helpful as I'd hoped, which sparked a lot of thought about all the things no one tells you or teaches you when you escape. Hopefully I can distill it down to some useful stuff for you. I will do my best to jot down some notes and come back to this very soon, but please be patient with me. It's difficult to find time while single parenting, especially during holiday break!!

~ BC

[Boat Babe]

Thank you all. Beautifulcrazy, please don't stress about this, especially over Covid Christmas. .
Much love

[Penny Lane]

A few trends I've noticed from reading here and watching the aftermath of DH's divorce:

One is that what you need to do for your healing is often at direct odds with what you need to do for your court case. If you ask your therapist and your lawyer, they will often tell you to do the exact opposite things. This isn't your fault! It's that the system is not set up to deal with abusers. You are always going to have to balance healing vs doing the things you need to do for court, although there is a light at the end of the tunnel in that once the divorce is finalized a lot of the pressure comes off. Go with your gut. Sometimes court will take over, sometimes you will need to heal more.

Another is that they should just totally disregard conventional wisdom about what is best for the kids in a divorce. Yes, it is better for the kids to have two parents who work together. But the abuser is never going to work with them! It is WORSE for the kids to have the victim parent bending over to accommodate insane terrible demands the abuser parent for the sake of "getting along for the kids." Parallel parenting is a much better model in these situations.

Finally it is heartbreaking to watch your kids have to go back to the abuser. It sucks and it probably will never be easy. However, you're not going to be able to fully protect the kids from the other parent and you can use up all your energy trying to spin your wheels to do so. A better goal is to make the kids resilient, so that they can survive spending time with the other parent without acquiring too many toxic behaviors.

Relatedly, the abuser is losing a lot of power over you, but they do have power over the children which is something you care about. They will use that to try to keep your attention and control you. The more you can fake that you don't care, and the less you can react, the less they will do it in the future. That doesn't mean don't advocate for your kids, but it does mean letting things go that you should not ever have to let go. Even though you will endure a terrible temper tantrum in the short term, it will be better for you and the kids in the long term.

I hope this helps and that others will weigh in! Sounds like a great project.

[Stepping lightly]

Yeah, this a big list- just a few thoughts from me as well.

- When setting up communication, have an email address ONLY for discussions regarding custody/with the other parent etc.  This will help compartmentalize the communication so you aren't tripping over abusive emails when you try to track your amazon shipment.  Set up a plan for looking at communication, this will likely be dependent on the custody schedule/other methods of communication.  As a therapist told DH, "get in, get out".  You know you have to dig into the nasty messages, but do it quickly and get out and move on.
-Keep the kids out of the middle of the parent conflict.  This is really hard with an abusive co-parent, and will take intentional actions to stay consistent.  When I first met DH, I remember hearing the kids come back from their mom's saying all of these horrible lies.  I asked him, "do you ever go back to her and ask why she is telling the kids this garbage?". He said, "no, that would only hurt the kids and they would be afraid to talk to me about things".  As a newcomer to the PD co-parenting world, this was so amazing and selfless to me.  It SUCKS- but it also reduces the engagement- and you hope when the abuser sees this tactic is not bothering impacting you (it is, they just can't see it), they will back off a bit.  I like to think of this as the abuser getting all worked up and the image of insults flying straight at us....and we simply step aside and let them fly past our head without notice.  it's silly maybe, but it feels like it gives you a little power back in an impossible situation.  BM sent me a letter one time- I refused to read it (DH read it)- but I didn't want to give her that pathway to impact my emotional state, so I filed it away for evidence.  I did read it like 6 months later, and at that point it was a bit more humorous (but still slightly horrifying in how nasty it was).  But I felt empowered by taking control of my own emotions and not being forced into conflict against my will.
-As much as possible, ensure the custody order structures communication so the other parent constantly interrupt your time with the kids.  It will also set up structure for you to check in with the kids when they aren't with you.  Be careful of the abusive work around of "the kids should be able to call the other parent whenever they want", in our experience this means they can call BM whenever they want, but BM throws a rage filled tantrum if they want to call us- therefore...they no longer "want" to call us.  We always let them call if they want to anyway- even though BM created some story about how we refuse them phone calls (which only happened if they were like "I want to say hi to mom" as we are sitting down to dinner).
-Medical care- this was huge for us- I'm pretty sure BM has Munchausen's by proxy and tried to use it to leverage custody.  I don't know the best answer for this- but am hoping someone else has found a semi solution to this massive problem in custody.
-Activities- Our agreement says the other parent can't commit to activities on your time without your approval.  BM was literally signing the kids up for activities from dawn to dusk.  They were exhausted, we had no say in how we spent time with the kids, and there was CONSTANT interaction and conflict with BM in person.  Also, cost for activities is shared, unless one signs the kids up for activities without documented agreement from the other parent.  Not perfect, one parent can reject all activities.
-Don't parent for custody, parent to be a good parent.  You are going to make good and bad decisions- but if you make decision based on your best interest of the child and knowledge at the time of the decision- you can defend it.  Really big decisions- write them down and put your thought process and why you made the decision. 

I think the biggest thing is to really create boundaries and make space for yourself to breath.  It is going to be hard- somedays more than others.  It is easy to get sucked into the constant mental space of dealing with custody with an abusive ex, but that is no life.  When your kids are with you, ENJOY them, don't worry about what every word/action is going to mean.  There was a period of time I was so anxious when the kids were with us, because literally...every...single....thing...had a consequence.  I didn't make "better" decisions being on edge, I didn't have "less consequences" being so careful....so what was the point.  An abuser is going to latch onto everything...let them go crazy, not you.  I mean, we got the kids rollerblades for Easter one year because "diet" was the conflict of the year and we opted against candy- BM raged because SHE wanted to get the kids rollerblades but didn't have enough money and somehow DH was sociopathic and read her mind and took that away from her.  It is not worth the emotional energy, but it's easy to get sucked into....over and over again.

[Associate of Daniel]

To quickly add to SL's advice re:  communication with ex...

1. Set your device so that it doesn't ding at you when their emails come in.

2.  Set a curfew. No emailing each other between 9pm and 9am. (For example)

3. When the emails arrive, don't read them until you feel strong enough.  You can usually tell by the subject whether or not it's urgent.

4.  Don't reply to emails until at least the next day.  Even if you draft a reply, don't send it until you've slept on it.

5.  B.I.F.F.  Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm(?).  Stick to the point.  As the children get older, ptetty much the only need for communication will be for pickup/dropoff and holiday arrangements.  So ignore all the abusive accusations etc..

6.  Don't communicate with the ex's partner.   Unless they are healthier than the ex and more likely to work with you then the ex.

7.  Don't show the kids any of the email communications.

AOD

[sevenyears]

Wow - these are super helpful suggestions. I hope your course can help a lot of people.  I want to add a couple of suggestions:

- Develop support networks for yourself and for your children (and for your children indirectly, through you). What friends/family can you rely on? What schools, daycare, social services etc can be useful (or harmful)?

- Remember not to criticize your Ex to the various agencies/authorities involved in your case. For example: I am doing X, Y and Z to support DC's education. What is Ex doing? (Rather than, Ex is doing nothing to support DC's education). This is is the hardest for me. It makes me sound like a bitter Ex rather than a supportive mother. Can you make role plays and practical exercises in your course?

- Remember that most people will likely not understand what you're going through, and many blame the victims. So, again, having a personal support network is important.

[Boat Babe]

Thank you guys. Greatly appreciated. ❤️

[oak_tree]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm so glad I landed here. Suddenly there are a bunch of people nearby who know what it's like. 

So much gold in this thread.  Thank you.

And the roleplay suggestion for the course is great, imho. For all sorts of situations. I find myself trying to have conversations in my head (with DSD) but actually acting it out would make it that much more natural or habit-like when the situations arise.

[Stillirise]

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=86930.0

Boat Babe, I just finished this book, and thought it might be of interest:

"Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent" by: Fjelstad & McBride

[Free2Bme]

  to all the wisdom shared here. 

My two cents...

- I found documenting to be time consuming and stressful, there are apps you can dictate a daily 'journal' entry, this was especially helpful to me in the early days when I had so much drama to keep track of during visitations until divorce was final.

-I learned the hard way to NEVER answer the phone when it was updxh, text or email only

-Scrutinize the legal language before signing custody agreement, best to have another set of eyes read it over too.  I was under so much stress I overlooked a stipulation updxh added that said I would pickup/deliver children to updxh front door if he moved to another city/state, it was snuck in and I missed it.  He relocated and I'm stuck with it now.

- Include language in document that stipulates that the parent with which the child lives will be responsible for owning accounts and supervising devices ie., mobile phones, ipads, kindles, etc.  It can be difficult to single-parent a teen living in your home when pdx has control of their stuff and uses devices to undermine parenting and cause division in the home.

- The double standard of "child must answer every call from upd-dad immediately (calls every night at dinnertime), however children are coached and guilted for calling mom when they're with upd-dad because he says it is HIS TIME!"  This was so destructive and pervasive with older teens/young adult children even 5 years later.

-Call the police when updxh physically harms child, imprisons child, withholds food and phone access from child, or tries to run over other parent/children during exchanges, etc.  Many times with DV, victims are fearful to report these kind of things even after leaving, especially when they have lost all hope in people and institutions (family court system).

Thanks for doing this Boat Babe !

[ShyTurtle]

I will chime in. It would have been a useful course for me years ago, although my ex never ever even opened a parenting book ever! He was always a major part of the problem. And now he's abused one of my teens so bad that he never wants to speak to him again. I wish that I had better advice years ago.

[IRedW77]

I can only speak of experience from the perspective of growing up as a child of divorce with a BPD mother.

I can maybe throw in a few warnings and/or questions.

PD will use the kids as pawns whenever possible.

My mom would set things up (like baseball) and sound committed to it and get me all excited and then dump the responsibility on my dad at the last minute. My dad would be left with the choice of disappointing his little kid or taking on a ton of responsibility. Dad took me to 3 years of baseball that mom got me signed up for. In 3 years she went to 1 game and I still have traumatic memories of the guilt trip that followed.

My big question would be how you handle trying to get your child to exercise what autonomy they have to undo some of the PD's terrible decisions. There's just no good way I know to handle these things.

My dad was always trying to get me out of the situations as much as possible, but he'd have to talk to me about everything and that put me in an awkward position. I was enmeshed with BPDm from aged 5, so I was always in the position of defending her craziness to my dad (who was sane, rational, and correct 95% of the time).

He periodically tried to get me to come live with him instead. My life might be totally different and better if I had, but if anything the attempts probably made me burrow deeper into the unhealthy PD world.

I guess I'd advise not to try to get your kids to get themselves out of the PD morass unless they come to you for help. I understand what my dad was trying to do, but it didn't help.

Also, the legal system has improved a lot since then. There was a STRONG belief that "a child belongs with his mother" regardless of how much documentary evidence there was of her poor mental health.

Stepping Lightly:

If your ex is BPD and a "waif" type they don't necessarily have Munchausen's by proxy. If the ex appears to have Munchausen's themselves then it's just kind of a natural extension for them.

In other words, if the ex is always "sick" with whatever then your kid will also be "sick" with whatever. The PD views the child as an extension of themselves, so if they're sick your kid has the same thing as far as they're concerned.

It looks and functions like Munchausen's and MBP, but it's not necessarily. It doesn't really matter for all practical purposes, but that's how it often functions. That was my entire childhood. My dad was always trying to get me off of whatever crazy drug or away from whatever crazy diagnosis.

Maybe you could have an agreement requiring mutual sign-off on any non-emergency medical decisions. You could also give each parent the right to get a second opinion on any and all medical diagnoses. Also mutual agreement on any medications or supplements prescribed or routinely taken.

I can remember my mother sometimes coaching me on what to say to doctors. Without that, and without doctor shopping you can get honest diagnoses (or usually lack thereof).

—————-

Watch out for PD's using and abusing any and every legal or social institution against you. There is no real way to protect yourself other than to document everything and keep all your own activities as straight and narrow as possible.

I wonder if there is any kind of balancing agreement that can be made. My mom pawned off so much responsibility for me onto my dad. She had custody, but he spent half his weeknights when she had custody doing things with and for me. She got out of everything.

Also, maybe some kind of agreements on who's allowed to babysit. I can remember my mom leaving me with sketchy alcoholic friends that my dad knew nothing about.