No sense of shame?

[Bunnyme]

I'm sure this has likely been asked before, but is a lack of shame/embarrassment part of bpd/NPD's?  I know that it is for psychopathy, so there may be some overlap with the other cluster Bs.  My pd never seemed to get embarrassed.   Not just about things like being caught lying, but he could probably have had his pants fall down on stage and he wouldn't even flinch.  The only time I saw him ever approach embarrassment was when someone commented on a gluttonous plate of food he prepared, but it came off more as anger...it was from someone he idolizes and he was always seeking that person's approval.  Not saying he is a psychopath, but I'm watching a show about psychopaths, and they keep talking about the lack or shame/guilt and it got me thinking if it is a common cluster b trait.  Mine would actually say that he cant think of a single time in his life where he felt embarrassed.  How weird is that?!?!   He also would never apologize.  He screamed at his mom one time about something so stupid.  He was so clearly wrong (to any rational person) and I told him that he should apologize, so he got extremely angry with me.  He literally could not understand why he would apologize.  It was his feeling and he expressed it.  Period. 
The more I study, the scarier it gets. 

[Starboard Song]

I think it is just as likely that cluster Bs feel almost never-ending shame.

From what I see, some of them may constantly be afraid of their weaknesses, may constantly cringe at their own faux pas, and may constantly fear rejection and abandonment.

Never apologizing doesn't mean they don't know or fear the truth.

[Penny Lane]

I think Starboard is onto something. I always think that my husband's ex feels so much shame, all the time, that she can't distinguish from things that are fine vs actual shameful behavior. For example she works equally hard to hide from DH that the kids got a bump on the head from playing (totally normal! happens to every parent!) and that she neglects them by leaving them alone for long periods of time (not at all normal!). So she reacts to that shame by being relentlessly aggressive. That armchair psychology is not really that helpful, though, for our purposes in figuring out how to live with the effects of their actions.

[Bunnyme]

Interesting points.  I am just finding this whole thing so fascinating (incredibly irritating, but fascinating) in terms of how other people's perceptions and ways of processing can differ so greatly. 
I just found the statement that he has never felt embarrassed to be so odd.   Perhaps it is less about not feeling embarrassed than it is about not wanting to acknowledge that he could ever do something embarrassing...and what that could say about him.  (Even though everyone has embarrassing moments)

[GettingOOTF]

From everything I read and was told my doctors when I was trying to help "fix" my ex they are driven by a deep deep shame. This shame manifests itself in what we see at PD behaviors.

My understanding is that it's a similar sense of shame that drives addicts.

It's not that they don't feel shame it's that they don't feel safe or capable of looking at and expressing that shame.

You would not think my ex felt an ounce of shame by his behaviors.

[Associate of Daniel]

I have 2 uNPDs in my life.

One, I can see, is tormented with guilt and shame that extends to normal every day things that we all do.  Like forgetting where we've put something, or accidentally leaving a light on.  He just can't cope with appearing anything less than perfect.

The other, I just can't see an ounce of guilt or shame within her.  I think she honestly believes that she is entitled to every morsel of attention and praise from ever person in the world.  Down to the little, every day things that we all do without ever thinking anyone should notice or thank us for. Like doing a load of laundry.

So perhaps the first is uNPD and the other is u/psychopath. I don't know.

Both, however react in the same way:  raging, projection, gaslighting, rewriting history, manipulation.

So my responses to them both are the same:  As little contact with them as possible.

It's the safest way.

AOD

[stormbrewing]

I understand embarrassment and shame to be two very different things.

Embarrassment is a sense of having done, or having been seen doing, something that you don't necessarily want others to see, and has to do with the image we want to present to others. A person with a PD often can't see any situation from any perspective other than their own, so it doesn't even occur to them to be embarrassed about anything.

Shame is a deep feeling of moral failure or character deficiency that relates not to our image but to who we are as a person. Shame is worse when it remains unknown to those who proclaim to love us. It is a feeling of not being good enough, of being responsible for any wrongs that have been done to us, of not meeting our own standards of behaviour. In the people I have known with bpd it comes both from the abuse they were subject to as children as well as the way they treat others as a result of this disorder. That's why it is (generally) so difficult for a person with bpd to find treatment effective while they are in a relationship, because the shame just keeps building.

My stbxpdh never experienced embarrassment in his life, despite frequently engaging in behaviour that most would be very embarrassed by. His shame on the other hand was an overwhelming and pervasive presence in his life.

[GettingOOTF]

Stormbrewing that is a phenomenal post. You explain it so well.