They don't like "No"

SparkStillLit · January 25, 2021, 04:57:53 PM

I tried to be gentle and nice, it was a delicate topic. Didn't matter. PD just stood there, not hearing no, and making more words trying for yes. Then silently standing and staring at me, waiting for yes.
I think any normal person would have noticed by then my answer was no.
I still tried to be kind, but said no more firmly. More silent staring. More no. Then angry.
Lord help me. This is so not fun.
Some ugliness awaits me now. I can't imagine what. All I wanted was to be left alone and to relax, read my book, watch my movie.
HEY!!! I KNOW!!! I CAN YOGA!!!
'Cause guys, my hair is falling out now. I think it's a rare side effect of my meds, and I have a huge head of thick hair, but come ON already. Way worsened migraines. Severe Major Depression and anxiety, which is new. Hair falling out. WTF. It's like PD is killing me without physically doing it.

foggydude · January 25, 2021, 05:46:57 PM

Oh boy. I know that feeling. Mine came out and said i can hear no form of " no". This is unrealistic snd irrational of course. She even said it in therapy to which the therapist said that's not rational. She guised it as only temporary

Theses types of behaviors will eventually affect our health over time is my guess.

I feel for you. Empathy points.

I am out if my R and really wishing i was back in it. You have reminded me of why I should have gratitude for what I dont have sadly.

Boat Babe · January 25, 2021, 07:20:28 PM

Heya Spark. This sounds horrible. This is so toxic for you. I think your hair loss is stress related my dear. This is just no way to live. I am so sorry.

SparkStillLit · January 25, 2021, 07:23:43 PM

I gave what he wanted, so niceness and buttering up lasted...two days. Now I have not, and that will come right to an end. Funny how that works.
I've noticed too what a bad vibe he gives off. The animals are ALWAYS upset and on edge when he is speaking and churning about the main part of the house. Any of the rest of us can do chores (except vacuum) and have conversation in the main area, and nobody makes noises or mills about. Let him come in, however....milling, pacing, upset noises, leaving the area, protective behaviors...
I wonder if he isn't getting worse.

blunk · January 26, 2021, 08:05:28 AM

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and I know that I was guilty of it many times with my bpdxh. But all you have done by giving in, is to teach him him that if he pushes hard enough and persists long enough he can turn any no into a yes. Believe me, I know that there were times when giving in seemed so much easier than enduring the (insert pd behavior here...anger, blaming, circular argument, darvo, etc.). However, in the long run, giving in will only make the behavior worse.

It may help you to read up on intermittent reinforcement.

Matteblak · January 26, 2021, 09:33:49 AM

Good morning, Sparks. Praying for strength and wisdom for you in this time. It's hard because, if your world is anything like mine, they have a singular focus "get what I want" (repeat as needed). They wear us down because they know that we have a thing in us they don't that causes us to care, to listen, to want to ease pain, even when they won't admit they hurt...and they take advantage of that.

I hate that I agree with the last post about reinforcing his behavior...hurts me to say it b/c I know that it was not your first choice to give in. It's hard and we understand, and I do it so often I'm in no position to talk. Don't beat yourself up. You have something that the PD will never have. Hope. Both temporally and eternally, They may weaponize your hope, but they can't take it, and they can't feel it, and they hate you for your ability to have light, and joy, and peace where they only have blackness and hate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for including song lyrics, but this is my go-to on bad PD days:

"Is He Worthy" by Andrew Peterson
(Verse 1)
Do you feel the world is broken? (We do)
Do you feel the shadows deepen? (We do)
But do you know that all the dark won't stop the light from getting through? (We do)
Do you wish that you could see it all made new? (We do)

Praying for you.

GettingOOTF · January 26, 2021, 11:27:40 AM

I had to break the habit of giving my BPDxH what he wanted to appease him.

Saying no when you only know how to say yes is hard. My ex knew how to get me to say yes so he’d badger and badger until I gave in. Eventually I stopped giving in but I had to learn to be ok with his very negative reaction.

It’s early days and you are doing great having left and not gone back. Try not to exhaust yourself too much with these fights. The bigger fights are yet to come.

I found I was very enmeshed with my ex. It took me a long time to detangle myself from him so I totally get why you engage with him the way you too. You cannot reason with a PD or get them to agree to anything they don’t want to.

My therapist and others told me over and over than my ex was an adult and to stop engaging with him the way I was. I was unable to hear it at the time but I look back and see how much simpler and quicker the entire divorce process would have been if I’d listened to them.

For me personally my engaging with him stemmed from my codependency. My need to manipulate and control the situation, to be the “better” person and deep down I wanted him to say or do something to magically become the person I wanted so I wouldn’t have to do the hard work of divorcing.

No one ever shows their best side during a divorce. Even the most “amicable” of divorces have conflict. There is no hope for an amicable divorce from an abuser. Even if he didn’t want you he won’t want to be seen to “lose”.

I’m sorry for your stress. It’s a very stressful time. At some point it will be behind you and you’ll start to heal and reap the benefits of your new life.

SparkStillLit · January 26, 2021, 12:20:11 PM

I haven't left the relationship. I wish I were gone, but I'm still here. I do know about intermittent reinforcement, and I know I am bringing it on myself by giving up sometimes.
I don't quite know how to navigate in those waters, I'm working on that one. There must be a way that is ok for me.

GettingOOTF · January 26, 2021, 12:41:34 PM

You are not bringing anything on your self. Sorry I misread the original poster.

We do not deserve the treatment we get. We do not do anything to encourage it. We are not to blame in the slightest. The PDs reactions to us are 100% on them. They are not a reflection on us on the slightest. You are worthy and deserving of only the best treatment from other people.

Matteblak · January 26, 2021, 01:08:53 PM

Sparks, please forgive if I gave the impression that I felt that you had done anything wrong. Meant to acknowledge how your SO may view your response.

Lauren17 · January 26, 2021, 01:10:35 PM

Spark, do you remember when your children were small, say 3-5 years old, and you would tell them something perfectly reasonable such as "No, you can't wear your bathing suit to church." And they would wheedle and barter and whine "but why?!'" a thousand times? One of the best parenting tips I ever heard was that Mom doesn't have to answer all the follow on questions. I applied that approach and it helped.
Years later, I discovered that it's also effective against both MIL and H.
Of course, this solution falls into the category of simple, but not easy.

I'm so sorry to hear of your health issues. I have several idiopathic things going on myself, migraines included. The doctors don't know what's causing them, but I have a pretty good idea.
Strength and hugs to you.

notrightinthehead · January 26, 2021, 01:48:22 PM

I am with Lauren17. I stopped engaging in all the pushing and arguing, I gave myself time to decide what I wanted, to feel deeply inside what I wanted, did I want to give in to his demand, and if the answer was no, I said politely that I was not going to do it. Then I used the broken record technique, ....I hear what you said but the answer is still no.....As I said, No thanks. ....Asked and answered.
When the badgering continued I got up and left the space. When he followed me into the new space, I left that as well. Sometimes I grabbed the car keys and the dog and left the house. When I came back some hours later, he would usually give me the silent treatment but had accepted that the answer was no.
The important issue is, you will be much stronger if you firmly believe that you have the right to say NO. And you do!

SparkStillLit · January 26, 2021, 05:41:24 PM

Omg "no you can't wear your bathing suit to church" LOL!!!
You all are right, of course. I don't have to answer questions, and there's NOTHING wrong with a polite "no", I am allowed to live my life how I want and decide what I do and do not want to do and when. His reactions are his problem.
It's difficult to wrap my head around sometimes. Toddler behavior in adult bodies.

Lauren17 · January 27, 2021, 08:34:41 PM

I know that I'm not responsible for H's behaviors.
I know that it's ok so politely say "no, thank you" to MIL.
Sometimes, though, I struggle with feeling the truth tho.
That's the great thing about this forum. It's filled with people who will listen and understand and give a helping hand on knowing those truths when we have a bad day.
That's my perspective, anyway.

SparkStillLit · January 27, 2021, 08:57:45 PM

Somebody said how they had to learn to be ok with the extremely negative reaction. That's me. Still learning to be ok with that, and not just collapse in the face of it, and give in and get the "buttering up" reaction for giving him what he wants. I have "collapsed" for 25 years, so it's not like it's going to change overnight. And let me tell you, that negative response just gets bigger when I weirdly don't oblige by collapsing. Someone also called this "kicking the vending machine". I really don't want him learning that he gets candy out by whaling everliving hell out of the "machine". I learned the stupid collapse and oblige whether I feel like it or not in my FOO. It's super hard to un-learn.