Siblings and Scapegoating

[Hopeful Spine]

My husband grew up in a large dysfunctional family which abuses alcohol.  When I met my husband he was just the sort of "bad boy" that I needed in my life.  Things progressed and unbelievably I married him.  We had many difficult years due to the fact that he was a mean drunk.  Verbal abuse and just general passive aggressive behavior.  It was incredibly difficult but I had the support of all my new sisters in law.

As the years progressed I noticed that he got dumped on a lot.  Not so much his parents but his siblings, and cousins.  I chalk it up to him being a stubborn and mean drunk.  Even though he told me that "everyone", "always" blamed him for "everything" - I felt that maybe his drunken attitude was the main contributor to the way he was treated and while I sympathized, I felt like maybe he was getting what he deserved.

After 8 years of this cycle of dysfunction, my husband cheated on me in an epic way and it further destroyed relationships.  Long story short - the whole thing was a wake up call for my husband.  So he went sober, found Christ, worked with a therapist, apologized to everyone he knew, and put everything he had into fixing his mistakes.  He was incredibly successful and today I'm so happy to be married to him. Our life is amazing.

Except he still get's dumped on.  He is sometimes "accidentally" excluded from family things.  People, "forget" to include him on informational texts.  They argue with him at parties or try to prove him wrong when he says something.  My sisters in law are no longer interested in me.  When we are invited and actually attend parties we are treated with polite indifference.  When we speak up about this they act like we're self centered babies and need to grow up.

Recently he was on a family text and asked a question.  A bit of a probing question but still - just a concerned inquiry about something going on.  Another sibling blew up at him and it turned into a big thing.  My husband is completely upset and it seems like there is nothing we can do to make this family respect and love us.

To be fair - there are a handful of people who support him.  However they are not interested in confrontation so they never speak up when things seem "mean".  His parents pretend that we're all a happy family and there are no consequences for bad behavior, which incidentally served us well during those difficult years.  But now, when we're in a healthy place, I can see that overlooking grave sins does not create a strong family.

So I've been reading up on scapegoating and it all fits.  My husband was always blamed as a child - at home and in school.  He was also sexually abused (I have no details and I do not know if anyone else suffered).  For most of his young adult life he made poor choices which fulfilled his "role" in the family.  He's worked every job you can imagine, many times getting fired.

Until he changed his life.  At first I thought that his siblings weren't accepting him because they didn't believe he could recover from it all.  But my husband has been a model human being for almost 10 years now, we have an awesome marriage, and he has his own successful business.  But it's clear that it's still not good enough for this family.

I'm reaching the end of the road where I do not want to be around these people.   My husband is having a tough time.  Sometimes his family is nice, and when they are - it feels good.  But most of the time he feels rejected.  We don't have children of our own so the idea of not being around our nieces and nephews makes us sad.

At what point do you disengage?

How do you KNOW that it's them and not you.  ALL of these siblings are incredibly popular, talented, successful, well liked, and well regarding in the community.  Gaslighting is a thing but maybe we ARE too self-centered?

Is it worth it to speak to those somewhat supportive people and let them know how lost you feel?

Do you even try to explain to people why you are leaving?  In the hopes that change will happen.

[M0009803]

I grew up in a sort of similar family and was also SC.

Its highly unlikely the dynamics will change given that they have been going on for decades since infancy (can't comment on the sexual part because I never dealt with that personally).

NC comes with its own set of problems and is no panacea to improving your lives if you still have healthy extended family relationahips.

It does sound like you might need to go VLC with the dysfunctional people in his family, and then assess how these boundaries are working.

What ultimately matters here is the happiness and health of your own FOC, but I do agree that it will be hard for your husband to disengage from his family.

[Hopeful Spine]

I grew up in a sort of similar family and was also SC.
____
It does sound like you might need to go VLC with the dysfunctional people in his family, and then assess how these boundaries are working.

Thanks for your comment.  Do you currently interact with your family?  How do you deal with the scapegoat role?

What does VLC stand for. I'm not finding that in the list of acconyms.

[Hopeful Spine]

Is it possible to be both the scapegoat AND the golden child?  And is it possible for all the children in the family to have this role?

I'm thinking of my husband's family and I notice that his parents participate in their childrens lives mostly when there is a victory and a tragedy.  When none is present they have very little interest in any of them.  Luckily they have a large family and so there is always someone excelling or declining.  Those who are doing neither get zero attention.  Like, months can go by without then phoning or checking in.  We always have to contact them.

And yet they brag about how close our family is.

When my husband treated me very poorly his parents just looked the other way.  Didn't speak up, didn't help, just acted happy when something went well, like a new job or a new car.  His siblings just kept pouring the drinks.

When my husband went to jail for very valid reasons - his parents just pretended like it was a mistake even though it was very serious.  His siblings kept silent until I begged them to reach out with a little support - in order to help me cope with the situation.

When my husband had a serious ongoing medical issue his parents were very present with phone calls, and making a big deal of asking for prayers at church.  His siblings acted like he was making things up, even suggesting that a surgery was performed as a excessive measure.

When my husband started a business and it did well - his parents were proud peacocks, his mother overly supporting him and his dad boasting about how his fatherly influence was key.  His siblings act very bored and actually seem to support his competition more.

So it seems to be a unique blend (from his parents) of letting poor behavior off the hook, celebrating successes and sharing the glory of tragedy.  And zero attention unless you are doing one of these things.  And the siblings seem to react with disgust, disregard, jealousy, or a begrudged offer of approval.

I know that my husband is often jealous of his siblings as well.  And their alliances they make with each other hurts.

When we lived in pain we had no love or support.  No one wanted to be around us.

When we were in transition of making our lives better - there was no support or encouragement.  No one wanted the responsibility of helping.  We were told later that they were "giving us space" and didn't want to hinder his substance abuse issues with their own drinking.

Since we have 100% shifted our lives, we have a lot of positivity and celebration.  And still, no one wants to be around us.

We might be winning at life but we're failing with his family.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think you put your finger near it with the jealousy among the siblings. My FOO has a lot of similar elements to your H's family. I was mostly a SG but when I would do well in school or excelled in some visible way my parents would bask in the reflected glory and take credit for it, similar to your FIL. When I was ill, getting all the support and sympathy for themselves, asking for "prayers" aka attention. When I was the one giving them supply in this way, my siblings were forgotten. And I was likewise forgotten when I wasn't being exciting. As an adult it was completely my duty to contact them. If I heard from parents or siblings at all when things were not going well, it was so they could get the latest drama to report to their personal audiences. Certainly not to offer support, other than an empty, "Oh, I wish I could be there for you! Oh, but I have so many problems myself right now..."

If parents lack the object constancy to focus on more than one child, the siblings have to be competition with each other. Because they NEED their parents' attention. The sad thing is even when I was the one on stage, so to speak, my needs and me as a person were never seen. I was their stage prop of the moment, nothing more. This is the dynamic I'm reading into your H's family. My siblings reacted similarly to my own teenage illness, to the point of accusing me of faking it for attention.

If you're failing with a "family" like that, it's not a reflection of you. If you are winning at life, celebrate that and don't look for validation with people who don't actually care for you. It hurts. But it hurts less once you learn what's really going on and how to break out of that dysfunctional dance.

And congratulations on the wonderful strides you and your DH have made to better your life. That is a big achievement, and that you truly did it all on your own deserves so much recognition.

[Hopeful Spine]

If you're failing with a "family" like that, it's not a reflection of you. If you are winning at life, celebrate that and don't look for validation with people who don't actually care for you. It hurts. But it hurts less once you learn what's really going on and how to break out of that dysfunctional dance.

Thanks for sharing all your experiences with your family.  I'm constantly thankful that others share their experiences - it makes me feel less damaged to know that other, perfectly lovely people, have felt these things too.  You sound very aware and healthy in your comment.  I hope to get there.

Here's an example of how his parents shift gears.  My SIL (husbands brothers wife) said some awful, awful things to us.  After years of improving himself, she told us that due to my husbands past (which was mostly substance abuse) that she didn't want us around her children alone.  She trumped up some silly things and made them into a big deal and acted like my husband was really sick.  You'll just have to believe that I'm telling the truth that she was out of her mind when she said these awful things. On my husbands worse day he'd never, never harm a child.  We have trouble with our siblings liking us - but all our nieces and nephews flocked to us with absolute joy.  They would wait at the window when we showed up to their parties and scream and pile on us when we crossed the threshold.

Anyway, it was devastating and I went no contact with her.  When the rest of the family found out they acted incredulous on our behalf.  But of course, no one wanted to "intrude" or get in the middle of things.  My MIL & FIL sort of said, "well, this isn't right.  Maybe we should say something."  MIL and FIL even took a trip with them shortly after.  My husband asked them, "so did you talk to them about the situation."  And they were like, "well, it never really came up.  But while we were at Mass with them we prayed extra hard that her heart would soften."  Then the following holiday everyone hugged and kissed my SIL and acted like they were so happy to see her. 

So we had to seriously alter how we interact with her children, which means we've altered how we act with all the children so that no one feels left out.  I'm terrified that an extra long hug or a piggy back ride will be misconstrued, so to protect ourselves we play it safe and change how we've always been.  We're no longer the favorite Aunt and Uncle because we barely pay attention to them.  It breaks my heart.  Other uncles get to be silly with the children.  Not my husband.  Other aunts get to host sleepovers, but not me.  But they've all forgotten this "thing" and everyone plays happy family.  It makes me so angry when I see MIL clutching SIL's newest baby and chatting happily with her.  I just want to shout at her, "You do remember all the AWFUL things she said about your son, right?" 

But when MIL is with us - when we've invited her to dinner or take her somewhere - she will make a few negative comments here and there about that SIL and their kids.  It's like she's trying to tell us that she really does care about us more, even if she does pretend otherwise.

So is my husband a Golden Child that has been scapegoated by his siblings simply because of jealousy?  Are they ALL competing to become the Golden Child - by any means necessary?  Or are they banding together to send the message that we are seriously not good enough for this family because they can't forgive the past?

[Outsiderchild]

I think one of the first casualties of a dysfunctional family is the sibling relationships.   Everyone competing for attention from the parents who are the key to the whole mess.  Divide and conquer, gate keeping, scapegoat hot potato, triangulation, the parents do not want to do the hard thing when there are so many, many games to play.  In fact, the parents never, ever do the hard things.   They do what's fun or easiest, or projects the image they want, or protects themselves from criticism.   It worked when you were little so they just keep on.  They can't/won't learn or change. 

It's so much easier for me to be angry at my siblings than to be angry with my parents. Safer.  Sibling issues can all be normalized under the heading of sibling rivalry and swept under the rug.   It puts the focus of the dynamic on the children instead of the parents who created the environment where children feel competitive instead of supportive with their siblings.  I'm slowly trying to forgive my siblings who are just as damaged as I am, only on the other side of the emotional teeter totter that my parents are ultimately responsible for creating as our family dynamic.   

[Hopeful Spine]

It's so much easier for me to be angry at my siblings than to be angry with my parents. Safer.  Sibling issues can all be normalized under the heading of sibling rivalry and swept under the rug.   It puts the focus of the dynamic on the children instead of the parents who created the environment where children feel competitive instead of supportive with their siblings.  I'm slowly trying to forgive my siblings who are just as damaged as I am, only on the other side of the emotional teeter totter that my parents are ultimately responsible for creating as our family dynamic.

This is so true.  My husband especially doesn't want to blame his parents.  As frustrated as I get with all his siblings I can have a soft spot for them.  At different times I do have compassion.  Especially his sister who has mentioned many times, "I just wish my mom cared enough to know what is going on in my life - it's hard having little kids and I could use help."  But then she turns around and is mean to me and I remember why I'm stepping away.

[Outsiderchild]

Oh,  I still have what I call, "Pie In The Face Moments" with my siblings.  When I forget how damaged they are and expect normal reactions and kindnesses.   Just when I start to think we are all growing....Whammm! 

I am now trying to remind myself that I'm not going to get friendship from them.  At least not my definition of friendship.  I'm not sure what the relationship should be called.  Not friendship and not what most people think as "family."  But I'm not ready to walk away, yet...

[Hopeful Spine]

Oh,  I still have what I call, "Pie In The Face Moments" with my siblings.  When I forget how damaged they are and expect normal reactions and kindnesses.   Just when I start to think we are all growing....Whammm! 

I am now trying to remind myself that I'm not going to get friendship from them.  At least not my definition of friendship.  I'm not sure what the relationship should be called.  Not friendship and not what most people think as "family."  But I'm not ready to walk away, yet...

YES!  When I joined this family I thought I'd be a part of their boisterious, fun-loving group!  FAMILY!  They seemed to love me.  Instant family and finally a whole slew of sisters in laws to be my friends!  How wrong I was.  It's taken me a couple years to understand that I'm not their friend.  THEY are friends, but I'm not their friend.  That hurts but the reality is that I actually don't want to be friends with people who party too hard, are mean to "outsiders", and love to complain about their husbands.  Like I truly DON'T want to be friends with people like that.

But man, it's lonely at family gatherings when they are laughing and catching up (and SEEM like the sort of gal pals that I would want) and I'm just sort of there.  It's all doubly hard for my husband.  There are a few family friends that are treated nicer than he is.  The family friends get in on the loop on outings - but not my husband. 

I could go on and on.  But I want to hear how others cope.

[Outsiderchild]

I'm not sure I am doing all that well coping.  I am mostly avoiding social interactions as much as possible.  I find the most success trying to distance my emotional response by trying to view the dysfunction through the lens of a researcher.  In my head it sounds like David Attenborough narrating a nature video.  "Now, the PD is approaching the gathering of herd members, watch for the social posturing..."

Recognizing and labeling the behaviors that makes my stomach hurt slows down any unthinking response from me and makes it about their behaviors and choices not who I am as a person.  I tell myself that it doesn't matter who I am, they would behave the same way.   

I don't have a fairy tale ending ahead for my FOO story, but I am working on my own "...and she lived satisfactorily ever after" ending for me.

[M0009803]

I grew up in a sort of similar family and was also SC.
____
It does sound like you might need to go VLC with the dysfunctional people in his family, and then assess how these boundaries are working.

Thanks for your comment.  Do you currently interact with your family?  How do you deal with the scapegoat role?

What does VLC stand for. I'm not finding that in the list of acconyms.

VLC = Very low contact

I stopped interacting with my direct family over the last few years.  Two due to NC, and then the other two after repeated attempts at FM.  I still keep in contact with some of my extended family (who are healthy).

The real problem in my family is that the familial bonds have been frozen in time in relation to when we were children.

The reason for this is usually the dysfunctional parents. 

They want the children to be emotionally dependent on them, in order for them to remain at the center of the family structure, so they take steps to curtail any kind of emotional development that gets people in the family to interact at a more adult level.

After studying the dynamics in my own family I came to the conclusion it was not possible to change them.  I had also spoken out about how dysfunctional these dynamics were for many years, but nothing really changed.  You get stuck in a kind of loop where you hope they will treat you better (and this happens sometimes in the short-term), but they always revert back to their previous behaviors.  This kind of intermittent reinforcement is very damaging for your self-esteem.

I think that is were your husband is.  He is stuck on the loop.  He just keeps hoping they will change and treat him better.  Problem is, they don't, time keeps passing, and the internal emotional damage keeps accumulating.  It is also very difficult to see what is happening if you are the person inside the loop.    I was only able to eventually see it because my wife is emotionally healthy (she apotted it right away), and I took steps to take a time out after a particularly bad behavior episode.  I would not have been able to spot it otherwise as I lacked external perspective.

[Hopeful Spine]

After studying the dynamics in my own family I came to the conclusion it was not possible to change them.  I had also spoken out about how dysfunctional these dynamics were for many years, but nothing really changed.  You get stuck in a kind of loop where you hope they will treat you better (and this happens sometimes in the short-term), but they always revert back to their previous behaviors.  This kind of intermittent reinforcement is very damaging for your self-esteem.

Thanks for the extra info.  It's awesome you have an emotionally healthy wife to spot this for you.  I have a collection of my own issues that I've been working on for years.  So I know there is a problem but it's hard for me to have the confidence to keep my husband on track. 

What you've described above is where we are now.  We are treated poorly (and feel like shit).  We speak up and get treated like we're high maintenance babies (and feel like loser who can't win).  For a little while things improve but they revert back, when we least expect it. (we then feel like losers who were simply thrown a bone.).   

Sometimes my husband will take the bait and get upset and say something that isn't helpful or reinforces the narrative that they've assigned us. (then we feel like schmucks - they "got" us).

So yes, it's very damaging to self-esteem.  Especially when they seem to love to band together.

It was all very evident once when my husband participated in a show with his business.  Some of our healthy, extended family supported him and that felt wonderful.  A few of his more positive siblings were very encouraging.  The show was going very well and we garnered a lot of positive attention.  Even though his siblings were all at the same event - it took a day for them to make their way over to us and give us a begrudge, "congrats". 

And that's what it was - until one of their friends came over and was very excited for us.  They posted pics on social media and SUDDENLY those siblings were completely on board and they jumped into action, posing with us and appearing to be celebrating our debut.  Online we looked very happy and banded and tight.  All fake!!!

[M0009803]

After studying the dynamics in my own family I came to the conclusion it was not possible to change them.  I had also spoken out about how dysfunctional these dynamics were for many years, but nothing really changed.  You get stuck in a kind of loop where you hope they will treat you better (and this happens sometimes in the short-term), but they always revert back to their previous behaviors.  This kind of intermittent reinforcement is very damaging for your self-esteem.

Thanks for the extra info.  It's awesome you have an emotionally healthy wife to spot this for you.  I have a collection of my own issues that I've been working on for years.  So I know there is a problem but it's hard for me to have the confidence to keep my husband on track. 

What you've described above is where we are now.  We are treated poorly (and feel like shit).  We speak up and get treated like we're high maintenance babies (and feel like loser who can't win).  For a little while things improve but they revert back, when we least expect it. (we then feel like losers who were simply thrown a bone.).   

Sometimes my husband will take the bait and get upset and say something that isn't helpful or reinforces the narrative that they've assigned us. (then we feel like schmucks - they "got" us).

So yes, it's very damaging to self-esteem.  Especially when they seem to love to band together.

It was all very evident once when my husband participated in a show with his business.  Some of our healthy, extended family supported him and that felt wonderful.  A few of his more positive siblings were very encouraging.  The show was going very well and we garnered a lot of positive attention.  Even though his siblings were all at the same event - it took a day for them to make their way over to us and give us a begrudge, "congrats". 

And that's what it was - until one of their friends came over and was very excited for us.  They posted pics on social media and SUDDENLY those siblings were completely on board and they jumped into action, posing with us and appearing to be celebrating our debut.  Online we looked very happy and banded and tight.  All fake!!!

What you described there at the end is very common in dysfunctional families, and links up to what Cordelia stated about competition (for parental attention).

They simply cannot be happy for their sibling.  There is no support there, and they only changed their tune because an external person was making them look bad.

This actually isn't "fake" behavior, it is authentic, and is a product of dysfunctional & very damaging parenting. They care much more about giving the appearance of a happy family to outsiders, than they do about the happiness & success of your husband (their sibling).

Once you understand that, it is much easier to understand the dysfunction, and take steps to heal from it.  Its only via those kinds of examples that people inside the loop can begin to see the problem, as it really makes it much more observable. 

It is much, much tougher to see it when it is just direct family mistreating you, as you will have normalised this sort of behavior over the years.  Usually takes a BBB (Big Bad Behavior) episode to see things more clearly (this usually happens around big events like weddings, funerals, baptisms etc..).