Why

[PAY]

My STBXuNPDH has asked me this more times than I can count.  For a while, (while I was still living there), I felt I needed to answer.  But learned that he really wasn't interested in understanding.  It was just more supply to argue.
We had a "reasonable" 20 years of marriage.  The last year became intolerable for me.  As I came Out of the FOG, I became less tolerant of the behaviors and all those times I questioned "stay or go" over the years, the answer became clear.

He's asking the question again.  He says he doesn't understand (despite me explaining and being clear).  What do I say?  How do I respond to this?  Your experience with this is appreciated.  Thank you!

[GettingOOTF]

My ex refused to accept that we were divorcing. He thought we'd get divorced and then remarry. He said it would be a clean slate.

He wants you to give him a reason so that he can convince you that you are wrong.

What I came to see is that all my ex cared about was how how I felt impacted him. There is no reasoning with people like this.  As someone on this forum pointed out to me - if he were able to hear you he would have by now.

[pushit]

They ask this because they want us to JADE.  (Look it up in the toolbox if you're unfamiliar)  Every time I fell into that trap with my ex it turned into a circular argument.  Within five minutes we would be on a totally different subject, then cycle through 5 more subjects and back to the beginning and never get anywhere.  It was an endlessly frustrating cycle.

A few years ago I read a great book "No More Mr. Nice Guy".  (Yes, it's for men, but this will still apply here) One concept in the book has really stuck with me.  The "Nice Guy" will readily over-explain his intentions, and is easily manipulated into justifying his desires or actions.  The book helped me realize that it's okay to just want something to be a certain way because I want it to be that way.  So, the advice in the book is when you're challenged to justify something just reply "because that's what I want".  Honestly, I've been amazed at how well it works.  It made me nervous to assert that the first few times, but people I would normally debate with don't have much to say after I use that tactic.

I know that kind of a response sounds very shallow when it comes to a big question like "why do you want a divorce".  In regards to major decisions in life it's realistic for the other party to want some sort of justification from you.  However, I think you could dress it up with a little more and try statements like "because we've been trying for a long time without much success, and I want a different future for myself".  The biggest thing is to avoid the word "need" and replace it with "want".  People have a hard time trying to argue that you should want something else.

[Simon]

I think, in his head, his question is more "Why now?"
After all those years of abusing you, and you putting up with it, he's probably wondering why you're no longer willing to.
He knows he hasn't changed his behaviour, so in his strange little world, he sees no reason for you to leave.

As for an answer to give him, the first thing that springs to mind is along the lines of "You've never treated me right, and I should never have accepted that. And now that I have more respect for myself, I'm not going to accept it."
Be prepared for all sorts of "I'll change" comments, and sudden epiphanies if you do say that though. 

[Prototypian]

That's the tough part for non PD spectrum partners and spouses; we want to engage and answer questions.    Reread the acronym JADE and say to yourself, "I will not:

Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain


That's so very hard for someone who is used to "normal conversations" and "rational discussions".   In non PD world, "why" is a justifiable and understandable question to a complex decision and the question warrants a response.   This is the key to the difficulty with a nice, "normal" person dealing with a PD.   You want to engage as though the question is being asked to actually have an understanding but it's not.  The question "why?" Is a pretext for manipulation because their concern is that the control or advantage they have is lost and they need to regain that in order to feel good.   His question isn't a heartfelt emotional response even if it sounds that way. It s absolutely a tactic, whether calculated or simply an instinct, to maneuver the discussion into a means to control the narrative and the argument

Your response should be to throw it back to the actual statements of fact for what you are discussing.   Steel yourself and do not engage that way.  If your encounter is about possessions or paperwork or timelines, only discuss those.   If he says "I won't talk about those until you give me an explanation why" your tactic should be to not engage that way but to say, "are you saying you won't discuss the paperwork?" And if he says "not without you telling me why, you owe me an explanation"
Your statement of fact should be, "these are the papers we need to have signed, I will have the attorney or settlement mediator reach out to you"

Don't say why you won't discuss it, don't justify with "we have been over this before"

You have to place up those barriers in the conversation.   Sadly this will be the point where you realize his attachment to you was in that control because he will probably simply give up at some point and move on because all of that control he had through manipulation will be gone and that's what he really had for his validation of your relationship.

Just my advice but if he is truly PD then the why isn't a need for an answer.

[ploughthrough2021]

This is such a great thread.  Thank you everyone for your posts !

[PAY]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful replies.
Thanks for the JADE reminder.
Whether I was in the FOG or in denial for the first 15 years of our marriage, it was mostly ok, or not too bad.  Yes, I complained to my friends.  Yes, he had a temper ~ but like an alcoholic, I would tell myself..."well, he's not turning his anger toward me" so it was "ok".  Then things changed about 5 years ago.  Maybe he ran out of supply elsewhere.  There were also circumstances (my father died and I inherited money).  Then last year, in January, we were in a horrific car accident.  Then covid and shelter in place.  So things really got bad last year ~ and I became educated about PDs and simultaneously started meditating daily.  And I became assertive and clearer and less willing to put up with the BS.
I think I've read that there is or can be a spectrum of PD.  And maybe it's still denial but I think H displayed mild PD behavior from the beginning.  I was also sick for a number of years and he was very helpful and supportive during that time.  So I can't say there were years of abuse.  But the last 5 have been increasingly difficult punctuated by this last year ~ and it's true (as he points out), last year was post accident and during covid.

I like the response "Because that's what I want".  Yes, it's hard to say.  The reality is, I would have prefer my marriage not end.  I would have preferred we go back to when things weren't so bad.  But that genie is out of the bottle.  I can't unsee, now that I'm Out of the FOG.  And there's also my codependency ~ not wanting to say something or anything that might hurt another person.  Or cause them to get angry ~ but that's how I got in this mess, isn't it?  I will need to practice that line "Because that's what I want" over and over and be brave.

Sometimes I "know" that he's not reasonable and doesn't really want an answer and other times, I go back in the FOG and think I'm talking to a reasonable person and he deserves my honest response.  But you all keep reminding me that that's not true, as I've learned in the school of hard knocks over and over again.

Thanks for all your strength and support.
Be well.

[ploughthrough2021]

Hi PAY, every word you write ring so true to me it's incredible !  I am just awed that we who have to live with a person with a PD, all travelled more or less the same painful journey, try our guts to make things normal and come to a realization that it is hopeless to stay.

[JustKeepTrying]

PAY,

Congratulations on twenty years.  Many times when going through a divorce we overlook the fact that we kept it together for twenty years.  Marriage is hard under normal circumstances.  Throw in a PD and life can be hell - at best.

As for the why, why answer.  If you are no longer living together and you don't want to or don't know how - then don't.  Communicate via text and email and ignore the why.  If you are ever forced into a corner, leave.  The beauty of this - you no longer are required to answer.  Even before, you weren't required to answer despite the guilt and desire to have a normal conversation.  But unfortunately, for many, normal conversations with a PD are non-existent.  Especially when you are asserting boundaries.

I was thirty-two years in.  He was diagnosed with OCPD.  I left when I realized - that final Out of the FOG moment - his abuse was intentional.  He knew what he was doing.  I am still processing that.  Hard to believe.  But I am two years out and I know those behaviors were there from the beginning.  We had good years - moments - and many many bad.  In the end, I choose to live without the walking on eggshells feeling daily.

[ploughthrough2021]

Hi JustKeepTrying,

I am on my 30th year (25 married) with my uNPDw.  From reading the various Forums, it seems like the 25 to 30 year mark is when people realize it's enough.  I wonder the percentage of people who can endure it longer than 30 ?

[Boat Babe]

They ask this because they want us to JADE.  (Look it up in the toolbox if you're unfamiliar)  Every time I fell into that trap with my ex it turned into a circular argument.  Within five minutes we would be on a totally different subject, then cycle through 5 more subjects and back to the beginning and never get anywhere.  It was an endlessly frustrating cycle.

A few years ago I read a great book "No More Mr. Nice Guy".  (Yes, it's for men, but this will still apply here) One concept in the book has really stuck with me.  The "Nice Guy" will readily over-explain his intentions, and is easily manipulated into justifying his desires or actions.  The book helped me realize that it's okay to just want something to be a certain way because I want it to be that way.  So, the advice in the book is when you're challenged to justify something just reply "because that's what I want".  Honestly, I've been amazed at how well it works.  It made me nervous to assert that the first few times, but people I would normally debate with don't have much to say after I use that tactic.

I know that kind of a response sounds very shallow when it comes to a big question like "why do you want a divorce".  In regards to major decisions in life it's realistic for the other party to want some sort of justification from you.  However, I think you could dress it up with a little more and try statements like "because we've been trying for a long time without much success, and I want a different future for myself".  The biggest thing is to avoid the word "need" and replace it with "want".  People have a hard time trying to argue that you should want something else.

Thanks for this. I am so going to start saying I want instead of I need. It works on two levels for me as a very people pleasing/codependent person, I very rarely say what I actually want in romantic relationships and it feels good to say that. It works for healthy relationship communication too.

And of course, it's difficult to argue against. It's such a statement of fact and actually closes the conversation. A very useful PD hack.

[JustKeepTrying]

Hi ploughthrough2021,

Good question.  Not sure many marriages make it past 20 or even 30 even with a PD involved.   I was at 32 and 33 together.  I wouldn't have if it hadn't been for a kid with autism and cancer.  But those issues just kept me from seeing what was going on.  It seemed every time I questioned it, and I did over and over from the beginning, something would big would happen, and I was thrown back into survival mode.  I don't think if I had lived closer to my family I would have stayed. Even the summer before the wedding I was staying hours away from my family - he was so upset to be apart from me.  Looking back, I now know what it was.  Then, it was romantic.  But being so far away with no one but him for support, it was what I could do to survive.

He asked why.  I told him once.  In a flat and monotone voice while he cried and begged.  Then when I didn't react, he turned angry in a split second.  I block that from my mind but this post brought it back.  He never asked again.