Breaking NC for joint therapy session?

[Morocha2015]

I've been NC about 2 years and my HPDm sent a letter today stating she's been in DBT weekly since July and wants me to join her for a session or two. I'd love to hear any experiences you all have had with this. I'm just really scared I'll shut down and I won't be able to articulate the abuse and it'll just turn into her crying for more attention. What have you all done and what should I expect from the session? I appreciate all your thoughts. Thank you, friends.

[engineer31]

I don't have any experience with this, but I know that it has to be hard. I know what it's like to not be able to articulate everything I want because I shut down. It is hard. Since I've never done this, I don't know what to expect so I can't give any advice on that part, but would writing out your thoughts, beforehand, and bringing them with you help? Either as a letter, or bullet points as to what you want to say to her.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I have no experience, but thoughts: Is there any hint as to the goal of your coming to these sessions? I think that would make a big difference. Do you want to go? What would you hope to discuss? Would you want the opportunity to say anything in particular in her T's presence? It's her T on her turf, so I guess I would need to have a darn good reason to go, as well as a reasonable assurance of safety.

[Jolie40]

 haven't done it & wouldn't want to because:

1) since July, the therapist has only heard her side of story
2) if you come in & say anything contrary, she could just say "told you she'd say that"
3) if you're willing to go, you might want to confirm with therapist first "what is the goal for you two to meet?"
4) don't think the therapist wants you there for your side of story because she's the client & it's about her

[Cat of the Canals]

Echoing what CMC and Jolie have said, I'd be very wary and would want some indication of the goals/expectations/etc. *from the therapist*. (I wouldn't trust the PDs in my life to be honest about it, frankly.) Without some sort of assurance otherwise, I worry you might be walking into a confrontation in which you are painted as the abuser and your mother the victim.

Even with such an assurance, I would still think long and hard about what YOU want. She's ultimately asking you to do work for her. Probably not the first time, right?

Heck, maybe she's beaten the odds, and therapy really has brought about a change... but that doesn't undo the past. Sometimes it's too little, too late. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, reassurance from the therapist!!! Absolutely.

If there is any possibility of her really having changed, my opinion is it would show in the invitation. I mean, you've been out of her life for two years. If she messes this up, she may not get another chance. It would behoove your mother to make the invitation as palatable to you as she can.

[GettingOOTF]

I attended “talk” therapy with my BPDxH. He also attended DBT therapy on his own. DBT teaches people to change their reactions to situations. It’s not the same as talk therapy where you get to the root of an issue and then try to “fix” it. Very simplistically DPT is like when you are learning multiplication as a kid and the entire class repeats it over and over again until you know 7x3 is 21 without even thinking thinking about it.  It’s not really the type of therapy you attend with another to reach a common ground.

My experience with therapy with my ex was that all it did was give him a more sophisticated language with which to manipulate and abuse me.

From my experience I’d not recommend attending therapy with a PD. If you do then I’d recommend finding a therapist to work with both of you on your relationship. Your mother’s therapist is exactly that - her therapist. If you are being invited to the sessions is likely that it’s because the therapist thinks it will help your mother not the relationship. Those are two totally different things.

[Leonor]

Hi all,

I did this, and I am so grateful for the experience. I found it so healing for me, and I'll share what I think made the session constructive:

A. My T and her T conferenced first. When my T said she believed my mom's T was aware and understood trauma as well as my mom's issues, she thought it would be worth considering. So if you have a T you trust and have worked with for a long time and you feel really "gets it," and that T expresses to you that your mom's T is solid, move from there. If you don't implicitly trust your T, or if your T expresses any reservations about your mom's T, take a hard pass.

B. I had done a lot of my own trauma work already. I was in a fairly stable place, liked my job, loved being a mom and my h was 100% my rock. I wasn't dissociating, wasn't constantly in flashbacks and was eating and sleeping well. You are always more important than your m., so prioritize your healing first. Mom can wait, and she can wait a loooooong time.

C. I had done a lot of work around my mom. I had written dozens of unsent letters and journal entries and art therapy, and role played conversations, and even wrote a letter that I read aloud to my m. in session. If you have found a way to speak your truth and tell your story, and if you feel like you can stand in that truth, you can always write a script or note cards. You don't have to wing it. But if you're still doubting it was that bad, or wondering if it really happened like that, or thinking you may be taking it wrong, wait. You deserve to be a good listener and patient with yourself while finding your voice.

D. She and her T come to your T's office at the time that works for you. You pick the day and the time when you feel most comfortable, most relaxed, with nothing to do afterwards but a hot bubble bath. Oh, and you get to cancel or postpone any time you want, even if it's five minutes in advance. If she's putting any conditions on the time, date, or place, it's not about you. That's all the information you need.

E. This is not an opportunity to heal your relationship, or give her a chance to apologize, or to finally make her see or hear or understand. This is an opportunity for you to stand in your adult self, in your truth, and hear you tell your story in your own voice. You may feel everything while you speak: I felt rage, fear, compassion, disappointment, sadness, and peace, all mixed up. But it's not about making anyone feel better. It's about you honoring your pain and loving yourself.

Any response on your mom's part is just information. If she gets upset and makes it about her, that's information. If she gets angry and blames you, that's information. If she blanks out and doesn't respond at all, that's information. You will better appreciate what that little girl had to suffer in order to survive. The pain you feel will be the pain you've been carrying all these years, and to be able to express it and embrace your inner child is a very powerful moment.

What do you think a meeting would do for you? How will it help you in your healing?

[Morocha2015]

I am immensely grateful for all of you! Your words of wisdom have been so helpful! You've all made some really good points. I hadn't really thought about the therapist being there for her, not for us. I think you're right, I think it would turn into a situation where she plays the victim and gets validated as such. The invitation said "to work on our relationship." That's code for "you need to be a better daughter to me by doing everything I say and letting me be mean to you." No where is there an admission of fault or acknowledgment that she could be part of the problem.

At first I felt like I should go because in the past I told her if she was in therapy for a long time I'd think about breaking the NC. But you're all right, I don't think she's ready to admit she has a problem. If months of weekly therapy can't help her see it she probably never will. And, heartbreakingly, I agree that it could just be too late.

Thank you all again for your comments and support. I love this group!

[Cat of the Canals]

At first I felt like I should go because in the past I told her if she was in therapy for a long time I'd think about breaking the NC. But you're all right, I don't think she's ready to admit she has a problem. If months of weekly therapy can't help her see it she probably never will.

Exactly. I feel like PDs are masters of interpreting things in a way that suits them best. So when you said you'd consider re-evaluating NC if she were to go to therapy, the obvious implication is that the therapy would have brought about some change in her behavior. But her interpretation is probably something like, "You said a 'long time in therapy.' Here is my receipt proving I've had eight months of therapy. Is this long enough to get you to break NC? If not, how much longer?" It's a transaction to her. She puts in the time and gets her reward.

If she'd done any true self-analysis and reflection, you'd think she'd have SOME sense of how her past behavior has harmed you and would, you know... take responsibility for it. Maybe apologize? Say, "Hey, I get why you felt you had to go NC now, and while you owe me nothing, I'd really like an opportunity to show you I've changed."

[Call Me Cordelia]

Exactly. In twelve step programs one of the steps is “Make Amends.” I’ve been the recipient of one of these overtures. It really is like you describe. Hey, I did some bad stuff to you, namely xyz, and I want you to know I’m really sorry. I’m trying to fix my life now. You owe me nothing, but if there’s anything I can do to make it right with you, I’m listening.

Up front ownership of past behavior and zero pressure or obligation on the other person.

“So we can work on our relationship,” is neutral at best, and shows not a hint of insight. If I decided to follow up with the T, I would do so with very low expectations. It occurred to me that you could possibly safely have a conversation with the T, maybe over the phone, if you felt you needed more information to feel at peace with a decision not to meet with your mother. It’s one thing to say, “Don’t get your hopes up.” It’s quite another to really let that hope and “What if...?” truly go.

[TwentyTwenty]

I'm trying to figure out why I would step into a room with anyone on my NM's terms. I'd never, ever do it.

If there was any slim chance if any meeting, she'd sure as hell have to meet at a place of my choosing, and a therapist that I used or at least had researched. Not hers.

Nothing ever on her terms, ever again.

[Starboard Song]

Hi all,

I did this, and I am so grateful for the experience. I found it so healing for me, and I'll share what I think made the session constructive.

Leonor, That was a hero post. Well done, you. Yours is probably the less common way this plays out, and that's why your voice was so important. Thank you!

[Tundra Woman]

Did the Therapist contact you directly to discuss a joint session? No? Guess who's Triangulating. Again.
No. Just no to this whole flaming bag of dog poop.

[Kiki81]

No.

Therapists are like lawyers in that they advocate solely for *their* client. You would be v alone in that session.

It's also triangulating.

It also confirms you are willing to negotiate any/all aspects of the relationship and its past.

Finally, as therapists have pointed out, you elucidating what hurts you, what upsets you, what annoys you simply puts a giant bullseye on your back for the other person to squarely hit in the future.

[BrightMoon]

I've been NC about 2 years and my HPDm sent a letter today stating she's been in DBT weekly since July and wants me to join her for a session or two. I'd love to hear any experiences you all have had with this. I'm just really scared I'll shut down and I won't be able to articulate the abuse and it'll just turn into her crying for more attention. What have you all done and what should I expect from the session? I appreciate all your thoughts. Thank you, friends.

Not sure its a good idea as the therapist will likely be on her side. You could counter her request with an offer of your own, which would be that you choose and provide the therapist-this way, you and not your parent will be the therapists client, and the therapist could look out for you in terms of stopping any innapropriate actions from the parent to you, such as talking over you, raising their voice, berating you, etc.

I have done this version myself, where I chose the therapist, but was explicit that the session was not to be used to attempt to heal or fix the relationship as it was way beyond repair. I requested to the therapist it be used for me to say some things I had always felt scared to say to them, about the abuse they caused in my childhood, about their ongoing unreasonable treatment of me as an adult, etc.

I learned a lot just observing the reactions and it has been incredibly empowering to me. Painful, but empowering. I realised all my self doubts and blame they had put on me my whole life was a lie, and the result of them always lying about everything, always trying to avoid responsibility or anything they didnt want to face. It advanced me more in my life than any therapy has. I highly recommend it-but obviously we are all different, so whatever is best for you is what you should consider. I hope things go well whichever paths you choose.

[Leonor]

Just wanted to chime in here ... In our joint session, my mom and her t. met with me and my t. in my T's office. It was totally on my turf as it were. And like everyone else here, I totally agree that this must be something that you want to do. Not accommodate, not acquiesce, not try harder. It has to be for *you* and your healing

[MiniWheat]

I had this opportunity offered up to do a joint zoom session with my VLC uPDm and her Therapist, but I ultimately declined. As a NPD, she cultivates relationships with people who look up to her or that she can manipulate, and I ended up deciding that the risk was too high that the therapist would just take part in her gaslighting behaviour.

I am open to it in the future. I see a therapist weekly, and have been doing some EMDR that has helped a lot.

To do a joint session with my uPDm that I was NC with for years and now VLC, I would need to see:
- Any kind of ownership of any of her abusive behaviour
- A change in her narrative
- Any indication that she could actually listen to a word I say

She's been in therapy and I heard she has awareness of her own trauma and that "her brain is wired wrong" - but that hasn't translated yet into any kind of amends or shifts. If it does, I would be open to an attempt.

Lastly, I did have a breakthrough with her once, years ago, and it took having someone there who she would listen to. It wasn't until that person told her that she wasn't listening, that she then started listening to anything I'd say. Sadly though, there weren't any long term changes to her behaviour or our relationship.

[Fortuna]

I have never been to therapy with my PDmom. I would be hesitant to do so as I know she saves up why I say and do to throw at me later. For example when I really loved a job she shot that at me when I wanted to stay home with small children instead of go back with less benefits and flexibility. She also hold serious grudges, be prepared for angry stories the expensive item you broke when you were three as a personal slight instead of you know you were three and breakable should maybe not be there. Or the time you were and adult and decided to be all independent and so something without her input and how devastating that was for her. Ect. (Insert your own experiences here.)

If I were to go I would definitely make a list, maybe sectioned off by type of behavior. The idea of confirming with the therapist the goals of the session as well as making sure the therapist is legit is great. In general the advice it to never go to therapy with an abuser, they are only gathering ammo. If you choose to go, make sure you can leave immediately if things start going south. Make sure you are prepared to deal with heavy emotions both dumped on you by your mom and things that might get brought to the surface that you have not dealt with yet. Maybe have a therapist or supportive loved one ready to talk when you get done with the session. Whatever you decide, good luck.