I don’t want to stonewall but set a boundary

[Dinah-sore]

Hi, please forgive me if I am unable to respond quickly to your responses. I will check them and they will help me, but my circumstances are unpredictable right now and I don't know when I can respond.

The abuse with DH had escalated in a really bad way. I can't post details on the forum but I can PM you if you have specific questions. But last weekend was insane, I felt my life was in danger. And my kids are also being hurt by being around it.

I waited till Wednesday and I asked him calmly to go stay with a friend for a few days and get into therapy. I am trying to do my best, for all of us, including him.

Instead of apologizing and working with me to figure out a resolution, he raged once again on me, DARVO'd, and lied to my face and gaslighted me.

I am done. I want a separation. I can't get one unless legally, because he is refusing to separate. He seems content to wait out my reaction and sweep it under the rug. That is what he does. It is his pattern. He explodes, and then points the finger at me, levels the blame, and then waits until I get over it. Never any resolution. Never changes. Maybe he behaves better for a few months but it will happen again in six months.

He is withholding information from me too, and becoming super chummy with my oldest, talking crap about me to her behind my back, and telling her he is seeing a counselor that is helping him so much. This "therapist" told him that it is "100% spiritual warfare" that made him attack me last week. So what kind of help is that to him if they don't hold him responsible for his actions, but tell him the devil did it. And then he doesn't even tell ME (the person who asked him to get into therapy), but he tells our oldest instead. I refuse to let her be put in the middle.

So I need help setting boundaries. I called the DV hotline and I am confused. I want to tell him that the next time he explodes on us we are getting separated. But they said that is manipulation. So how do I do this? How do I phrase the boundary? I don't want to manipulate him. Or threaten him. But I do want him to know it is over, and he will never ever attack me or the kids again without consequences. Are consequences manipulative?

He also has shown ZERO regret, sorrow, or concern about what happened. When I tried to graciously approach him about it he DARVO'd, like I said, which makes me scared that any attempt on my part to move toward fixing this will just open me up to verbal attacks. I don't have the energy to get beat up on verbally by a man who attacked me last week and doesn't feel bad about it.

So that leaves me with communication issues. I won't move on or get over it this time. So how do I talk to him? I have been being polite and just sticking to taking about the kids. And only when I need to. I have ignored his texts that are not about things we need to talk about. I don't want to stonewall him, but I am still tormented by his actions. I don't feel safe around him. Is this manipulation? I don't think so, but I am so afraid of mistreating him, while I learn how to set boundaries. I do not talk about him to the girls, except in updating them on stuff that pertains to them. "What dad did to you was wrong. I am talking to him about it, so we can figure out how to make sure that never happens again."

But I can't control that. Only he can control that. And only if he wants to. And right now his response to his abuse actually upset me more than the abuse itself. I would feel much better if I saw him upset about how he behaved. If I did what he did to someone, I would be mortified and deeply apologetic. But he isn't. It scares me to death.

How do I set a boundary that I am done putting up with it, and that we cannot have pleasant relations until
He is ready to take responsibility and make amends? That is all I want, him to take responsibility and change his behavior towards us.

[Dinah-sore]

Also, I can't just take the kids and leave the house because of their health right now. There are things in our home that they need for medical reasons. We need to stay here. But I can't force him to go. So I am stuck, here.

Also, it isn't that I am not willing to talk to him. I can be civil. But I am unwilling to pretend things are fine, and move forward without FIRST addressing the incident from last week. Is that wrong?

[JustKeepTrying]

Dinah-sore,

I am so sorry you are in this horrible situation.  I posted on another thread of yours so I won't repeat it.

Get the book Boundaries.  I found it helpful. 

You aren't manipulating.  You are telling him in clear terms that you won't tolerate that behavior; he needs help just as if he is an addict and it's not wrong to say no more drinking or I am walking.  I don't know what the DV people are talking about but that seems clear to me.

You are waffling here a bit - you want to give an ultimatum/boundary but you are also want to separate?  It appears you are ready to make this next step and I understand the fear especially if you can't leave the house - but you need concrete legal advice from a lawyer.  You are entitled to waffle and write out your concerns here - it is a safe space - but also take a moment and think about what you want - really want - and go do that.  You got this.

[Call Me Cordelia]

"I am done. I want a separation." What would it take to make it happen?

It sounds like you are very understandably feeling all sorts of things. But what you need is to be safe, and if the only realistic way for that to be is to get him out of the house, then call who you need and do what you must to get there. "Next time," sounds like far too late. Only in safety can you begin to think it all through and feel things clearly and even begin to heal. If you have the possibility of your life being in danger, how can you possibly function? It's asking so much of you. But I believe you have the strength to get free of your H's abuse. You've been through so much, and your kids. It's ground you down, as it would to anyone. But you keep coming back here and developing insight and determination. I believe you're going to get out one way or another. You deserve safety and freedom. That is your goal and your God-given right. If the devil made him do it, then all the more reason to get him the hell away from you. Other people's feelings and opinions about it simply don't matter, least of all the perpetrator's.

[square]

I see on one hand you are done, and on the other you are talking "next time."

Whether you are done now or planning for next time, consider resolving that anything that makes you or the kids unsafe gets reported to the police. I do not know the process but if he can be removed by police temporarily due to a reported incident, then an emergency restraining order can be filed at the same time as seperation/divorce papers. That's the only way I can think to get him out if he won't go. Other than simply filing and waiting for judge to decide who stays and who goes - if you think you guys will be safe between filing and judge decision.

The only alternative is to leave. I don't know if you have any access to money or if you are very restricted. Of course the kids should be able to stay but you may be at a point where it may be better to leave. I don't know the nature of the medical equipment but I assume it can be moved to a new location. Also, you may be able to get the house if the judge rules so, but you may need to leave while the process unfolds. WITH the kids.

I really don't know anything, this all comes from my own mind thinking about my own situation.

Also the DV people sound extremely disappointing. It sounds like they are not helping you make any sort of exit plan, or you wouldn't have this question. And their emphasis on policing your "stonewalling" is bizarre. I've also found DV resources to be useless, but my MIL went through a center that helped her enormously. (Another state).

[bat123]

Hi, Dinah-sore.  I'm sorry for what you're going through.  I think the challenge is that are attempting to negotiate or come to an agreement with someone who is not capable of coordinating with you on any level.  Unfortunately, you are faced with some scary and drastic decisions that you will have to make completely on your own.  If you or your children's lives are in immediate danger, get yourself somewhere safe, with the help of law enforcement if necessary.  If you think you can get through the next few days or weeks safely, you should consider reaching out to an attorney to figure out your options.  If he won't leave, you may have to take steps to leave yourself.  Attorneys will usually provide a free consultation where you can share your situation and they can tell you your options.  The most important piece is to have custody arrangements in place before you leave, unless you and the kids are in danger, in which case you can't wait.  His behavior sounds threatening and uncooperative.  This type of abuse cannot typically be "cured" in therapy, especially if he is unwilling to admit that he's abusive.  It does not sound like you're going to be able to negotiate with him to improve your marriage.  It's sad and it's scary, especially when kids are involved, and even more daunting if the kids have special needs.  You're going to need support— do you have friends or family who can help you navigate the next steps?

[notrightinthehead]

Dear Dinah-sore, are you sure you will survive the next incident?

You do not need the other persons permission to implement a boundary. A boundary is strictly for yourself. You make an agreement with yourself. For example, you agree with yourself, I will not allow myself to be yelled at. Whenever someone yells at me I will ask them to talk quietly. If they continue yelling I will get up and leave the space. And then you DO it. You leave the room, the house,  for as long as is needed for both to calm down.  If you cannot leave you will lock yourself in a room and call the police. You tell them it is a domestic violence situation.  You can use your phone to record the raging.

You want your husband out of the house. He refuses to leave. If I remember correctly he has disrespected and abused you for years. And he has the support of your church and your family.  So you will have to start building a case. And that needs some documentation. Please get help from the authorities and any place you can. The DV place might have misunderstood you or wanted to tell you that a threat like 'If you ever do that again I want to separate' is a pretty toothless threat, considering all of the abuse that has happened already. 

[Dinah-sore]

Thank you all for your comments, I have been reading and rereading them all week.

This week has been so hard because he has moved into his old post-rage phase of "Mr. Nice guy." Of course Mr. Nice Guy doesn't care to apologize or take responsibility for his actions, but he does REALLY want to know if I need anything ANYTHING from the store. Ugh!!!! It is so frustrating. Then Saturday the "flirting" started. I said I was going to take a shower and he said, "Do you need help?" It made me want to vomit. I politely said, "Please don't flirt with me." Then he repeated me in a mocking voice and acted hurt by my "mean" rejection.

I do feel like I am waffling, not in what I want, but in what I feel is possible. I have no money. I can't work, until my kids are a little better. My mom and dad have been helpful, but now that my mom is starting to think through all the ramifications I sense she is starting to subtly get scared of the marriage ending. She is saying things like, "well maybe if you just explain to him how scared you were he will understand you." But he was THERE. He saw the terror in my face. He heard my shrieks of begging him to stop, etc. he said, "well maybe he isn't smart enough to understand what he did." She did this with his mom for years too. I explained that I DID try to talk to him and it opened me up to another rage from him and a verbal abuse attack (DARVO). And I don't want to argue with him about my flaws in order to hold him accountable for his horrific behavior. That it won't work. Then she told me that he loves me. I don't feel loved by him, and why is it all the sudden HER job to convince me that he loves me. And who the f cares if he does. Even if he has loving feelings, his behavior was horrible. Unacceptable. My dad is firmly on my side and says he will support me if I divorce him. But support doesn't mean a permanent place to stay because I can't live with them.

I can't tell my therapist what happened either, because I am afraid she will report him because he also after the incident with me and him, he pushed my dd in the front yard. Asside from how scared I was of what happened to me from him, I am livid that he pushed my dd. And when I confronted him he lied to my face and said he didn't do it. I said, you already admitted it to my mom, and I heard you admit to it. He said, "well I did push her, but she didn't fall. But she did. In the front yard! Our neighbors could have seen it!!!! And yet he LIED to me.

So his words mean nothing to me. I am afraid he is smearing me to our friends. He is already attempting to use my oldest as a flying monkey. She keeps telling me that he misses me. She has no clue what he did to me. I refuse to tell her, but she told my parents that day that "it sounded like dad was killing my mom." So she heard it happening.

I don't feel like he is dangerous at the moment. He is in the Mr. Nice Guy phase that he goes through. But I don't know what will happen.

He texted me the other day, "I saw a counselor today." A week after he told my oldest even more than that. I ignored the text because if he wanted to talk about it he would have talked to me about it. From my daughter I learned  that this "counselor" told him it is "%100 spiritual warfare." What real counselor will tell an explosive man that it is all the devils fault? I think it is a pastor friend, not a licensed counselor. Whatever.

Possible trigger warning:
If anyone wants to know what happened I can PM you what he did. I am still confused by it. Essentially he was threatening to force me to hurt/kill him with a butcher knife I was going to use to slice chicken for dinner. But the way it happened made me think that one of us would get seriously injured or die, he was raging like a madman, and the situation was dangerous. To the point I thought I might die even on accident trying to get away from him or while maneuvering as he was forcing his body against me and trying to grab my hand and force me to stab him . A butcher knife was involved because I was going to make dinner when he snapped. So the DV hotline was confused because part of his attack to me was trying to force me to stab him. They were thinking in terms of legally, he didn't threaten to stab me, but his actions did put me in danger as it isn't safe to wrestle with a raging man over a butcher knife or run away from him for your life with a butcher knife in your hand. Well I guess I explained in general what happened. But I feel like I am not good at conveying how scary it was. I thought he was going to grab my hand and force me to stab him. And he tried to do that, and told me he was going to do that. I didn't want to do that. I was afraid he would grab my hand and do it and the police wouldn't believe what I said about how it happened and I would go to jail. It was all so crazy at the time. I begged him to stop. To the point of my dd thinking he was killing me. Then I ran out and hid in my neighbors yard behind their trash cans and was in a dissociated state for I don't know how long. That was when my kids went out front with him to look for me and he pushed my youngest to the ground. My oldest got mad at him and said, "Dad you pushed her!" And he shouted, "yeah, I did, shut up!" I heard that from where I was hiding, zoning out. But I remember it.

I am really afraid to put this out on the internet. I might delete that part. I don't want people to know it is me and what happened. 

I am also afraid people will read what happened and think, "that's all? That is nothing! She is being a drama Queen and making a big deal out of nothing." Am I being a drama Queen or is that bad? I am afraid to ask, but,  is that abusive?

[square]

I'm not thinking "that's all?" - I'm *terrified* reading that.

My H actually has a PTSD trigger of kitchen knives because of seeing his mother once grab one to threaten away his abusive father. My H used to hide the knives in our house. I'm telling you this as a perspective from the child's pov.

The red line for me is my kid. I have pictured something like that, like what if he shoves her or something. I think about it because I want to steel myself to spring into decisive action if it ever happens because, the terrifying thing is you CAN think, after everybody has settled down, it wasn't that bad. She wasn't injured, blah blah.

That's how they get you.

They turn up the heat, bit by bit. Until you're actually thinking "he shoved our medically fragile little girl but........" Your baby girl. Your job and his job is to take care of those children. He is the biggest threat to them.

I don't know what you can do to leave. I HEAR you that you don't have an income and you have kids with medical needs. I HEAR you.

Can you see a lawyer?

Can you think about turning your thought from "I can't leave" to "I don't yet know how I will leave?"

[Poison Ivy]

You are not being a drama queen. Your husband is abusing you and the children.

[1footouttadefog]

I think you are dealing with much more than just a pd.  It's getting worse.

When violence toward you and the kids is in the equation, along with the dysregulation decribed, the situation is dangerous.

Think about it in terms of life and death.  Not in terms of managing things with the toolbox to make it better or more livable.

Livable could be down the road of he seeks medical help and such things but for now I encourage you to focus on the danger and how it is escalating. 

I am sorry you are living this nightmare.  I hope you find away out soon.

[notrightinthehead]

So glad to read that at least your father,  I think he is enabling your mother,  is on your side. Please, please, please get the authorities involved. Please. And talk to your kids. Tell them that this is not normal behaviour.  That their father might be unwell mentally. Please do not normalize, excuse,  and enable his behaviour any longer.  I fear for you.  Have you not suffered enough?

[Poison Ivy]

 

[JustKeepTrying]

Everyone here has been very blunt because truthfully, you are not being a drama queen.  At all.  You are suffering from constant anxiety yourself - barely able to form normal thoughts due to walking and tiptoeing around him - caring for your children and the person who should support and believe you most, your mom, is not.  She is not.  How horrible. How absolutely horrible for you.

You and your children are not safe.  Make a plan.  Today.  Please.

Let us know how you are.  I will keep you in my prayers.   

[Dinah-sore]

Thank you all so much for the very clear replies. I needed them.

My mom and dad are the only ones who know the whole story, besides my moms best friend. My mom got mad at her best friend because the best friend told me to leave. And my mom didn't like someone else influencing me. But my mom is also influencing me, and I don't agree with her. For example, one of the things that I feel like I need to do is look at the big picture of my marriage. I need to consider all the various events, not just this one, it isn't just one bad fight. But when I do that, my mom tells me that I am intentionally bringing up bad memories and that they will manipulate me into ending the marriage. Like I am wrong to remember other bad things he did. I don't agree. She also told me that if he continues in therapy I can't hold the past against him. I need to forget about the bad things so he has a chance. If I remember the bad things then I am at fault for not trying hard enough. So now when I remember crappy things he did and I want to talk to someone about it I can't talk to her, cuz she will tell me I am adding to the problems. I am just LOOKING at the facts. I know she is wrong. And I feel like it is a manipulation to my heart, almost like she is forcing me to pretend to feel differently than I feel. It feels horrible.

I really like the idea of telling myself "I can't leave right now." Because it is an open door. I am not feeling trapped. I feel like I can work towards leaving. It feels liberating.

I listened to an old audio recording of my DH and I from a five years ago. It was a conversation that took place after another of his explosive rages. One night he blew up at me because I was "bugging him" about something so he jumped off the couch and started raging at me. So I left the room, and locked myself in my bedroom while he raged outside the door. I told him I Want us to calm down and then talk later. He was upset. So he took it out on my kids, I heard him raging on my oldest so I had to open the door and intervene, by then my kids were scared and locked in my youngest bedroom. They thought he was going to hit my oldest because he was screaming in her face and raised his hand like he was going to hit her, so my baby who was like 6 or seven locked him out of the room. I saw it and told him we are leaving and if he tries to stop us I will call the cops. So we left and spent the night at my parents house. My mom talked to him on the phone and he lied to her and told my mom that I was the one raging and he just wanted to calm me down. To that comment my kids all chimed in that I never at any point lost my temper or raised my voice. That it was only him. But to him, he believed that he was the calm one and I was raging. I don't get that? Anyways, so I came home the next day and we talked. I recorded the conversation. I just listened to it again. In that conversation I said EVERYTHING I could say to him right now. One thing I notice is that every time he says sorry, it sounds like a spoiled child who is angry and isn't sorry. He sounds reluctant to apologize and then every few minutes he will get louder and firm in his own defence of his behavior and blame towards me or towards the kids. When he sounds convincing and passionate he is blaming us and excusing himself, when he sounds reluctant and pouty is when he says what he saying "sorry". It tells me it was a waste of time. He was never sorry. He was never going to change and here we are five years later and everything is WORSE.

But I am not supposed to look back, and see the pattern?

So here we are, I am planning to leave him when I can, eventually. But I am still scared. How much time do I have before it happens again? Six months? A year? Who knows? But it will happen again. And I also think it is important to see the ways he has devalued me (and the kids) more and more each year.  Even when he is not raging, he makes it clear that we don't matter. Whether they need medical attention, protection from sexual predators, or affection, nope. We get none of that. That is not good. I mean even now, because of his financial control, I have a credit card that my parents pay for that I can use for food and medical expenses for the kids. Because he was saying no to things they needed. He goes into my wallet and takes it to pay for food for the kids now too. But he wants to buy a 300 dollar watch, too, even though he has a lot of expensive watches. But my parents pay for the kids food and meds. Isn't this crazy? I also am realizing how
much control he has, I never saw it before. But I make no decisions when it comes to money or the future. He bought a freaking house without letting me see it. He told me, "you would t like if if you saw it so you can't see it." It is a rental  property that he flipped and made really nice and he rents it to a friend, for way cheaper than it should be rented for (we could EASILY get 800 dollars more a month). He rents a four bedroom house in a nice neighborhood for less money than the worst one bedroom appt in the worst neighborhood around us. But I can't buy Meds for my kids, so my parents do. Stuff like that. That is weird right? And I have NO SAY.

Anyways, so here I am. I have a therapy appt this coming Friday. Do I tell my therapist what happened? I think she will call and report him if I tell about pushing my daughter. Maybe he needs that? Maybe it will ruin our life. I feel like this is my dirty little secret and I feel shame. I am terrified for people to know but desperate for help. Should I tell someone what is going on? What if he loses his job? And here I am, worried about his consequences and he isn't worried at all. He is just waiting for me to stop being mad.

I just don't believe he will change. They say they can't change until they take responsibility. But he isn't doing that. So I guess I am just waiting until I can leave and hoping I can do that before it happens again.

It is so sad. I used to believe God had plans for us in ministry. I really believed that. But now I don't believe he can have a real and fruitful ministry at all because he isn't humble enough to to love the right way. And that is so sad, because that is all he lived for, and he might lose it. But it isn't my fault. Right? I don't want to enable him. I am still so confused.

[Dinah-sore]

One more thing, the reason my DH said he raged on me is because he thought I was going to self harm. But I wasn't, I didn't, and I calmly told him I wasn't.

But my mom said, "well if I thought you were going to self harm, I might have blown up on you too."

So that makes me feel like what if it was my fault? But then I think, wait, she rages too. So maybe she feels sympathetic towards him because while she thinks she is not as bad as him, she also thinks it is okay for her to rage when she has a good enough reason in her own mind as well.

Am i off? Also, I do not think it is a valid excuse to rage on someone because you think they may be about to self harm. You would help them, support them, gently encourage them not to. So why would  be my fault even if I was going to self harm. I would much rather have self harmed than been in the situation he put me in. I have only occasionally self harmed this year, in mild ways, never in dangerous ways, and it has never traumatized me like this incident in any way.

[square]

My heart just hurts to read all that. Your mother should want to protect you, and her grandbabies. Those words she has in your head are toxic and disorienting. I'm so impressed by how clear headed you are despite the narrative she has put into your ear.

As for telling your therapist, THAT wouldn't ruin your life. HE has done that. I do understand that doing so would force the issue. Can you picture asking for help? Getting resources?

Let's say you've decided. You're done. What do you need to make it happen? Do you have access to any money? Can you start squirrelling money somehow? Can you use that card to have a session with a lawyer?

I'm willing to pick apart your mom's and H's BS point by point. Let me know if it would help to have a countervoice.