What is it? Projection? Scapegoating? Munchousen By Proxy (mental not physical)?

[PeanutButter]

I hope I can get some help here. My thoughts feel scattered about this so I hope I can get them across in a way that will make sense.

I am the scapegoat in my foo. My updM use to declare to me and others that 'there was something 'mentally' or 'emotionally' wrong with me. Now that im typing this it did seem like it was an accusation of 'you are defective' NOT a sincere concern 'im worried i want you to be well let me help you.'

She would use a hushed voice to smear my eD to us insinuating "somthing just not right with him", etc. She also smeared my gma (dad's mom) the same way. I didnt buy it but my updS did. This is why I wonder if it is something other than scapegoating.

It was used as evidence to discredit me when I didnt do what she wanted. She was a 'right' fighter. If she needed my 'taking issue' with her behavior, or 'disagreement' with her thoughts, feelings, or advice to be invalid, she would do the "you are just like your D (gma, aunt, or some person she also claimed was probably psychologically 'defective' on a regular basis).

If she is psycological ill then it could have been projection?
This might seem hypocritical since I believe my M and S may be pd and I discuss it here, on the forum. But my belief that psycological illness make people suffer therefore I would weep with joy if M or S went to thearapy and learned how to be aware of their thoughts and regulate their emotions.
But M did not ever 'get me help' in any fashion. She did not even mention that.

Even though she relentlessly raged and physically assaulted my S, me, and enD she would play act being 'afraid' of what I might do once she was angry with me and yelling though I did not ever fight back not one time.
She forced me to be her unpaid babysitter starting at 10 years of age for my S through 18 years of age for my Nephew.
Why would pdM use an unwell, possibly dangerous child to babysit other children?


Now I was eventually diagnosed 3 times as an adult with 'post partemn depression', 'severe depressive episode', 'anxiety disorder, and 'bipolar depression'. So its confusing.

Is this an understandable reaction from a parent who is just worried that their child may have some kind of mental or emotional 'issues' who has issues themselves and doesnt know what to do?

All I know is it damaged the way I saw myself. I spent alot of my life 'worried' i was going to 'turn into' one of my mentally ill relatives.
I now know that even having similar or some of the same traits is normal, to be expected even, and certianly doesnt mean you are "going to become just like" someone you are related biologically to. We are all extremely unique individuals! Healthy is to celebrate individuality and uniqueness imo!

THANKS to everyone who reads this!

[NumbLotus]

Just my take, nothing more.

I read it as the mental state of a pathalogically controlling person. A PD. 

A pathalogically controlling person does not get to know you, they DEFINE you. You might be shy or gregarious, creative or analytical, whatever makes you YOU.

The controlling person says, no, this is who you are.

And when you don't obey the picture they create of you, they say there must be something wrong with you! How dare you not conform to their definition of you! If they want you quiet and subservient and helpful and agreeable, and you don't follow that to the letter, either they are wrong or you are - and you know who it's gotta be.

Scapegoating a certain person as always having disappointed them and then comparing others to the scapegoat seems like the same thing. The controlling person got dealt a bad hand with such "malfunctioning" people all around them - as they see it.

Shaming you for "malfunctioning" will increase the odds that you may "function" to better suit them, and otherwise it makes a handy and simplistic outlet for their feelings, a black hole which will never be sated. And it certainly keeps everybody on their toes, doesn't it?

You don't have to wonder about the logic of why you'd be in charge of babysitting if you were so crazy or messed up, because logic is not what is going on here and you aren't the crazy or messed up person.

By the way, I think my posts about my daughter have bothered you and I think I can see why. Let me assure you that I love the little rascal more than anything and am trying to do right by her, and most of all accept (and celebrate) who she is. But I think you are concerned that I may be labelling her something bad. I will definitely keep it in mind but I don't think it's the same dynamic as you suffered. But please do keep sharing your thoughts, they are helpful and the more perspectives the better. I know I'm making mistakes but I'm working on it, and I haven't dismissed the possibility that you may have a point in my case.

[PeanutButter]

Numblotus,
Thanks.
It sounds like you may have first hand knowledge of this kind of behavior, so I appreciate the input.

All we have is our own experiences. Our advice is going to come from a lens created by those unique circumstances that we have lived.
  I am relating to everyone on this forum only from my unique perspective.

IME I try to take each comment at face value. IMO its not beneficial to any of us to make attempts to read between the lines or guess about unspoken beliefs or intentions of comments especially if they hit a nerve. It is also impossible to know what somone is 'thinking' so what matters is what they are 'speaking'.(typing)
I am trying to help and support others like me.
Once I learned to fully accept myself with compassion it is easy to have compassion for others.

[NumbLotus]

Sorry about that, will keep it in mind.

[PeanutButter]

So I was thinking on some facts pertaining to the situation that have me leaning towards it being a scapegoating.

If so, then it is shocking how far back it might go. I dont know if scapegoating can start this early but maybe it can. (Birth)

One of the aunts I was compared to most often in a negative way was the aunt I was 'named' for. The story I was told by my ubpd/uspdM was that my dad picked my name and he chose to name me after this particuar aunt.
This was an aunt my ubpd/uspdM often smeared. So not only was I told that I looked like her (same body style, eventually also height) and my ubpd/uspdM said I was 'being like her' & 'just like her' when I did things she didnt approve, but I was also named after her.

I was also told by my ubpd/uspdM that I had the same 'look' of the female siblings of my dad.

I dont think these were coincidences, and must have been factors of influence at least in part how my ubpd/uspdM 'saw' me and the role she 'chose' for me.

Eventually my unpdxH would also force me into the role of "unstable or crazy".
My emotions were entolerable to him. If I cried, if I got mad, any emotional response to his abusive behavior was labeled as a mental health problem and made him angrier.

By then since my ubpd/uspdM and my unpdxH both blamed me for their reactions, shamed me for my emotions, and completely denied their own emotions, I finally just accepted it. "I was unstable" That was the only issue that existed. "Emotions equals crazy!"

Has anyone else noticed persons who unaware of their emotions because of repressing, ignoring, or denial that think that they dont have emotions? If you admit or show emotions they think they dont ever have they think that means you are 'unstable' or 'not in control'?

I know now that they are either pd or fleas since they both came from abusive homes.

Its hard to release this pain. It hurt for so long. As far back as I can remember this was my reality.

[SparkStillLit]

I absolutely notice the emotion thing in H. He doesn't allow himself emotions, so any time he has one, he shoves it onto me. And yes, people who have emotions are crazy and unstable. He only ever allows "calm" for himself (which leads to him being able to say horrible things with zero inflection, like in a monotone) and if I have any sort of reaction it just "proves" that I'm  crazy, angry, unhappy, etc fill in the blank of whatever.
He did not have a healthy upbringing at all, but as I always tell the kids, there's no excuse for being an asshole.

[PeanutButter]

I absolutely notice the emotion thing in H. He doesn't allow himself emotions, so any time he has one, he shoves it onto me. And yes, people who have emotions are crazy and unstable. He only ever allows "calm" for himself (which leads to him being able to say horrible things with zero inflection, like in a monotone) and if I have any sort of reaction it just "proves" that I'm  crazy, angry, unhappy, etc fill in the blank of whatever.
He did not have a healthy upbringing at all, but as I always tell the kids, there's no excuse for being an asshole.

Yes yes that is what it seemed like to me.
If I get frustrated by something (nothing to do with him) Im ruining his zin. He could even somehow twist things around and insert himself between me and my emotion ( ie: anger) saying that it is towards him when it obviously isnt. ( ie Im mad because I just stubbed my toe on an object.) He might claim it sounded or felt like I was blaming him for the object being in my path which is completely untrue. I will have said something along the lines of "oh my god that hurts" (possibly hop around a little) adding "stupid object, where did that come from, ididnt see it there. That freakin hurt!" I didnt say anything indicating blame of him and actually I wished in those moments he could read my mind because I did NOT think that it was his fault!
Thank you so much.
I know I need to lean into validating myself, but for now maybe because of my codependency, I just felt relief that I am not the only one who has seen this.   

[PeanutButter]

I absolutely notice the emotion thing in H. He doesn't allow himself emotions, so any time he has one, he shoves it onto me. And yes, people who have emotions are crazy and unstable. He only ever allows "calm" for himself (which leads to him being able to say horrible things with zero inflection, like in a monotone) and if I have any sort of reaction it just "proves" that I'm  crazy, angry, unhappy, etc fill in the blank of whatever.
He did not have a healthy upbringing at all, but as I always tell the kids, there's no excuse for being an asshole.

This reminds me of pdMIL. She is critical, mocking, and down right mean but always in a calm voice. Sometimes even smiling as she does it. H said he cannot see she was being anything but nice. I told him one time it seemed like as long as she used that monotone (no emotion) voice she could literally say anything to him.

[Honey_B]

I can relate to what you are dealing with as my undiagnosed narc/borderline mother did something similar all my childhood. My mother was, and is still, very preoccupied with mental illness and "diagnoses" everyone around her constantly. Especially when they disagree with her or don't do as she wants them to. As I child, if I acted out or went against her wishes in any way, she would tell me that I was probably mentally ill and "maybe we should go to see the doctor about my illness". She would also insinuate that mentally ill kids (like me) would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital, which scared the sh*t out of me. She did the same with my sister and today my sister does suffer from mental issues, so it became a self-fullfilling prophecy.

I don't believe that there is anything wrong with me or my sister, but we are both damaged by my mother's behaviour and that has casused issues for us in adult life. For my sister it may have turned into an actual mental illness, but who's to say what had happened if she didn't grow up with my batshit crazy mother.

It's all projection of course, my mother is the one who is mentally ill. And deep down she knows it, thats why she has to project, even if it hurts her children.

And now that my sister has all these problems, my mother can get attention for my sister always providing drama AND control my sister for narc supply.... so its really a mixture of everything; Scapegoating, Projection, Munchausen, Control...

[PeanutButter]

I can relate to what you are dealing with as my undiagnosed narc/borderline mother did something similar all my childhood. My mother was, and is still, very preoccupied with mental illness and "diagnoses" everyone around her constantly. Especially when they disagree with her or don't do as she wants them to. As I child, if I acted out or went against her wishes in any way, she would tell me that I was probably mentally ill and "maybe we should go to see the doctor about my illness". She would also insinuate that mentally ill kids (like me) would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital, which scared the sh*t out of me. She did the same with my sister and today my sister does suffer from mental issues, so it became a self-fullfilling prophecy.

I don't believe that there is anything wrong with me or my sister, but we are both damaged by my mother's behaviour and that has casused issues for us in adult life. For my sister it may have turned into an actual mental illness, but who's to say what had happened if she didn't grow up with my batshit crazy mother.

It's all projection of course, my mother is the one who is mentally ill. And deep down she knows it, thats why she has to project, even if it hurts her children.

And now that my sister has all these problems, my mother can get attention for my sister always providing drama AND control my sister for narc supply.... so its really a mixture of everything; Scapegoating, Projection, Munchausen, Control...

Honey_B thank you for sharing your experience. Im sorry that you and your sister also were harmed in this way.

IMO it is quite an insideous kind of abuse. The M hides behind a vineer of faux concern and hurt.

I underlined parts of your post that I was saying "O my gosh thats it!" as I read. IMO you have hit on an imperative point to all of this. The damage to the child is such that IT BECOMES A SELF FULLFILLING PROPHECY!

I remember reading somewhere that bpd behavior in relationships can actually cause exactly what the bpd fears to happen.

[PeanutButter]

Something else I thought about is the neglect by the M not getting the child help even though she supposedly believes the child is mentally unwell.

Honey_B you said: "As a child, if I acted out or went against her wishes in any way, she would tell me that I was probably mentally ill and "maybe we should go to see the doctor about my illness"..."She would also insinuate that mentally ill kids (like me) would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital,"

So your mom could technically be said to have mentioned getting you help. However it seems pretty obvious that it was insincere since she never did. But actually imo it was a veiled threat to have you locked up if you displeased her! 

What kind of woman thinks about, talks about, and focuses on, on a regular basis that something may be wrong mental health wise with her child but DOESN'T seek proffessional help for them? IME it is a woman who is projecting her own issues and who won't get within 10 feet of psychology professionals.

Just as you said Honey_B :"It's all projection of course, my mother is the one who is mentally ill. And deep down she knows it, thats why she has to project, even if it hurts her children."

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/child-neglect.html
"In eighteen states, including New Jersey, if you witness or suspect neglect then you are required by law to report the neglect, no matter your profession.
Psychological or Emotional Neglect
Psychological/emotional neglect is a bit of a catchall category, and includes a wide variety of behaviors, such as humiliation, insult, failure to provide psychological care, having a lack of affection, ignoring the child's basic attention needs, and threatening serious punishment....."

So either way our M's were being abusive!
If they really believed what they said they were criminally negligent.
If they were lying they were emotionally/verbally abusing us.

[Honey_B]

Something else I thought about is the neglect by the M not getting the child help even though she supposedly believes the child is mentally unwell.

Honey_B you said: "As a child, if I acted out or went against her wishes in any way, she would tell me that I was probably mentally ill and "maybe we should go to see the doctor about my illness"..."She would also insinuate that mentally ill kids (like me) would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital,"

So your mom could technically be said to have mentioned getting you help. However it seems pretty obvious that it was insincere since she never did. But actually imo it was a veiled threat to have you locked up if you displeased her! 

What kind of woman thinks about, talks about, and focuses on, on a regular basis that something may be wrong mental health wise with her child but DOESN'T seek proffessional help for them? IME it is a woman who is projecting her own issues and who won't get within 10 feet of psychology professionals.

Just as you said Honey_B :"It's all projection of course, my mother is the one who is mentally ill. And deep down she knows it, thats why she has to project, even if it hurts her children."

There is no doubt my mother said these things to control me with a veiled threat. She did that in other ways as well, she often talked about how kids who didn't "behave" would be sent to boarding schools and I believed her everytime (at least until I got older). At some point that didn't work anymore, around age 14 I told her I would happily go live somewhere else as I had figured out it couldn't be worse than living with my mother. Also, I had good support from friends at school and I had an after school job, so I was starting to get a sense of independence. So I figured already then that I could pretty well take care of myself without her. Of course she flipped when she realized I wasn't controllable anymore, which is when she intensified the control on my sister.

Also, it was a different time. I was a child in the late 70's, early-mid 80's. It was not illegal to physically punish your kids then and the view on how to raise kids was done with considerable more "punishment" and less empathy than now. Children were to be well behaved and shut up. Once, around age 9, I tried to tell a little bit about what went on in my home to a teacher but she got angry and told me not to "tell lies about my parents" and of course she passed on what I had said to my parents. Teachers were also completely different 30-40 years ago, unless a child showed up in school completely beaten up, I don't think they would have reacted to child abuse (most of them). These were times where children still were considered the property of their parents.

[PeanutButter]

Me too. I was born in mid 70's. I was 14 also when I started to stand my ground alittle bit.
Thank goodness you were so resilient. Thats pretty shocking how that teacher treated you.
But that definately was 'a different world' back then.
I remember seeing the little boys get it with those long boards with handles as hard as the big bulky male teacher could swing it. DISGUSTING!

[Janeite V]

PeanutButter, I am sorry you were treated this way and that you are doubting yourself.

My uNPD relative diagnoses people frequently, either with a mental illness or dementia. He will call women "hysterical" and tell them to calm down if they are even slightly flustered, using a very long-suffering tone of voice.

Sometimes there is a veneer of faux concern, but usually it's in the form of an accusation or a means of gaslighting in order to "win" the most minor of disagreements. I've had other relatives ask me if I thought they had the diagnosis the narcissist told them they had, adding that the narcissist told them he was the only one who cared enough to be honest with them. It's really controlling and demeaning.

The uNPD also tends to use his own mental health problems as a way to emotionally blackmail others, but never acts with any sort of consideration or understanding towards the diagnoses he has given others.

Like you I've felt hypocritical for seeing this as a form of abuse because I follow NPD support groups and believe him to be a covert narcissist, even though like most pwPDs he has not sought any diagnosis.

I think the difference is that we are not using the label as a way to control, smear or gaslight the person, but to understand the dynamics at play in order to protect ourselves.

[Cat of the Canals]

Many times these behaviors can tick more than one box, depending on the context they're put in. To me it sounds like projection, gaslighting, splitting, and scapegoating rolled into one toxic little package. I do think most PDs have a deep sense of feeling that something is "wrong" with them, though many would never admit it. So they put it on everyone else around them. (Projection.) I agree with the others here that there's a gaslighting component, since this "wrongness" can be used in a variety of ways to make you doubt yourself or make others do the same. When she made the same comments about other family members, she was "othering" them and attempting to turn you against them or at least keep you "on her side." (Splitting.) And of course, any kind of smearing like this would be considered scapegoating in my mind. (And it is entirely possible to scapegoat more than one person.)

I don't think it's Munchausen's, as generally the point of the person concocting a faux diagnosis is for the attention and sympathy it gets them. If she made a big show of taking you to a bunch of doctors and constantly telling everyone who will listen how she has to do this and that to care for you and is just so devoted to her poor precious baby... that's usually what MBP looks like.

The fact that she never took you to a doctor or even seemed genuinely concerned speaks volumes, and I'm sorry you experienced this.

I think the difference is that we are not using the label as a way to control, smear or gaslight the person, but to understand the dynamics at play in order to protect ourselves.

That's a really great reminder.

[1footouttadefog]

When I was coming Out of the FOG and being gaslighted and such, I found the 100 Traits list in this toolbox useful in gaining clarity.

I marked the one I did, and the one that PDH did, and whether they were habitual or infrequent, and also indicated if they were do e in response to the other's pd behaviors. 

This ide tified thaty pdh had co authored the list, lol, and that I had some habits that needed work..

It gave great clarity as to who the pds in my life were and to what extent they were abusive. Additionally I gave me vocabulary for things I only had hazy icky feelings that something was wrong about.

[LarryCat]

 
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