Hoovered by Narc Mom - Is My Hurt Really That Invisible?

[DistanceNotDefense]

I'm feeling it really bad today. NC over a year with all FOO - I'm no response, can see texts but do not respond. Nothing from anyone except really waifish, helpless guilt trips from my covert narc M that I'm staying strong and successfully ignoring completely....

It was her bd the other day. Unlike last year (a couple months after NC started) I didn't send her a message passing on good wishes (got no response/thank you/I love you in response anyway).

But I get a message last night from her saying more or less (paraphrased) "I'm hurting. People make mistakes and I'm doing the best I can. Don't be so hard on me."

My heart strings tug but I know it's a DARVO. Hoovering. There's really no apology or anything very self-reflective there, just the "poor me" schpiel.

These are the types of responses I get from her to my confronting her on all the extreme hurt she and the family caused my husband and I a year ago....she's the hurt victim now somehow. I am the attacker for just wanting to keep that far away.

This also comes after months of silence on her end, then she insists on a visit like nothing happened ("it's been too long" she pressed, accompanied with no apology or reflection either) but I couldn't possibly let her around my husband, or myself, and told her that.

The harm that FOO especially caused my husband has become very apparent this year, finding out that my family has been smearing him as hitting me and being a wife beater.

I've gathered up enough evidence since NC (and before) that the intent of these messages from her (and from my sisters, too) is not to communicate or smooth things over. It is to manipulate... to elicit some sort of text from me that she/they can then ignore, and feel like they are "getting me back" with silent treatment and try to put me in the same pain they are probably experiencing with NC/NR (on top of the pain they already caused me.....it's still a wonder realizing how vengeful they are.)

My family wants me to see and soothe their hurt. But they refuse to see mine.

I am just hurting over the reality that with those close to me, my hurt always must be invisible.

And to make matters worse this all comes off the tail end of a fight with my extremely troubled DH (VERY troubled after all this stuff) deliberately ignoring me and continuing his behavior even when I tell him it hurts me....he carries on.

And he even gives me the same schpiel my M does. "I'M hurting" he says and tries to bring the focus to that, I have to fight so hard for my hurt to be seen. And it's still not seen.

What about me?

I am on a drive crying and wondering aloud, "does anyone see my hurt or care about me?"

How did I end up here so invisible? Posting in here so that my hurt is visible somewhere.... thank you in advance to anyone who's read this far

[Aeon]

I'm sorry that you're going through this and I wish there was something I could do to ease your pain.
We must have the same family, my unPDM and unPDH cannot see anyone's pain, ever. They fake it, of course, but that's for another thread,

It's a horrible thing to have to experience when you are treated like you don't exist or don't have feelings along with an outstretched hand saying, "Gimme some of what I won't give you."

That' great that you see the messages as just baiting, I often do not catch onto that kind of thing.
Many hugs to you. 

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thank you Aeon I really appreciate the message and the hugs. It's just a really rough one today.

"Gimme some of what I don't give you" - sums it up exactly....

My DH can be incredibly sweet but also empathy impaired with ADHD. It just really sucks on top of dealing with a for real PD family.

The messages are very hard to see as baiting because they seem very heartfelt. But I think of all the possible results that have happened from responding and dialoguing in the past and it has never been good. It flips on me so quickly....

I realize I could send a message saying the exact same thing she said to her, and get something very calloused or even manipulative or minimizing in response. That's how it would go.

Thank you, I feel a little more seen and a little less alone in the hurt today....

A hug if you need one too....

[blues_cruise]

I'm so sorry, I can tell from your words how much pain you're in. 

Your mom's behaviour shows a lack of empathy and self-absorption. Pain is a natural process of life and it should be felt and worked through. It's up to everyone as an individual to do that work themselves and to not expect others to do it for them, however I can imagine that the message in your family growing up was that the parent's needs come first and that you must self-sacrifice your own needs for theirs. It sounds like your mother is just looking for the easy way out of feeling her pain by projecting on to you and having you experience her shame rather than her. This isn't healthy. It's horrible when you realise how disordered it is and how painful it continues to be in the present day.

It sounds like your DH is very lost in his own hurt and isn't able to give much to you right now, which must feel like a big rejection for you. When people are overwhelmed with their own emotions they can be very self-absorbed and their actions (or lack of) come across as insensitive. It isn't fair to expect you to tolerate this indefinitely though and it sounds like your DH really needs to be looking at ways to improve his mental health, or at least work on it and acknowledge how his dysfunctional ways of coping/expressing his hurt are negatively impacting you.

If you haven't read it already, this book provides a lot of insight into situations like this: "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson. I'm reading it at the moment and it's shedding so much light on the awful impact that emotionally immature parents' (or people in general's) behaviour has on those around them and why they act the way they do.

[SunnyMeadow]

I can feel the hurt in your post and completely understand it. Why are these people so wrapped up in their hurt that they can't see you in all this? I feel this DnD and I'm not even involved.

The messages from your mother are classic and disturbing. It's weird when someone here writes it out and I can see it for being a Poor Me thing. When I'm experiencing it with my mother in real time it feels like she truly misses me and cares. I'm glad you see it for what it is. Your mother's sentences are simply ME, ME and ME.

Your FOO smearing your dh for being a wife beater and a cheater is really shocking. If this was me, I'd block all of them so I don't see their whiny texts and attempts to get you back. They don't deserve a relationship with you. If I was NC but could see my mother's texts, I'd be sent over the edge with anger at her weekly! It can't be good for you and your attempts to have calm and peace without them. This would spike my anxiety constantly.

Please protect yourself from her self-centered and evil texts. Out of sight, out of mind. Sadly, these people don't have their children's best interest at heart, only their own best interest. 

[DistanceNotDefense]

Bluescruise - thank you, you are so kind. That kindness and empathy always comes out in your posts!

What just blows me over with her is insisting that her daughter notice and nurture her pain while completely ignoring mine (which was caused by her to begin with)! When I say I'm hurt she just shouts "I'm hurt too!" louder, that's how it's always been. And then follows that up with "I'm doing my best as a mother" - this is doing your best??? NO self awareness at all. I got a similar hoover from enabler sister last year, completely self-absorbed and demanding empathy with no empathy given in return.

It's so totally selfish. I'm still processing how when push comes to shove this is ultimately my role in my family - and when I withdraw from that role I'm dealt nothing but anger and manipulation.

Now I am so, so worried sick that this is my role in my marriage, too. Maybe I just fell into it because that's what I was taught to accept from people. When I say "I'm hurt" my DH shouts "I'm hurt too!" louder. There feels to be progress but then it collapses. He cannot hold back from doing things that inflict emotional hurt on me even when I communicate that. It is better than my FOO relationships but cyclically frustrating and painful. He's acting out in ways based on shame and hurt but avoiding therapy like the plague....

Thank you also SunnyMeadow. I also feel like you, where with MY mother, there's this twinge of "she cares/she's trying in her own way" from what she writes.... but when I see it written out exactly the same on the forum from other mothers, I see right through it and I think "Don't bite the bait!" A part of me feels FOGged and dizzy with holding on to some idea that she might really love me, when she just wants me to feel bad and guilty for her and to collapse my stance. And have everything go back to the way it was again. So she can look like a good mother to her friends and take credit for my accomplishments.

I really cannot believe she has the gall to say "I'm hurt" and then want to visit my DH and I, when her and my sisters (who've spread it to a few other people) have stoked up this idea that he has been controlling and hitting and beating me in order to explain why I have set boundaries with them?

When I confronted her about this she gaslit me and said there was never talk about this regarding my DH, even though I heard it from two other people. So she lied right to my face. But there is always this little voice that crawls into my brain and says "what if you are wrong somehow?" Oh, the perks of being gaslit your entire childhood....

I am very tempted to just block her for good. She hoovers me the most. Or to send a message saying "The hurt you have inflicted on my husband and I has been astronomical. If all you can see is your own hurt in this and not take responsibility for the part you played in hurting us along with the rest of the family, I will have no choice but to block you and cut off all communication." NC has been relatively quiet though and I'm very concerned about what the next stage might look like if FOO knows they're blocked. Just don't know if I'm ready for it.

[Cat of the Canals]

My family wants me to see and soothe their hurt. But they refuse to see mine.

This was the idea repeating in my head over and over, reading your post. They demand empathy but give none back. We have been trained by our PD parents to always revert to the notion that THEIR feelings matter more than ours. That it is our duty to always consider their needs and wants first.

I see your hurt. And I'm sorry.

[Andeza]

We see your hurt. We understand it, and have shared it. Your hurt is a real, and a perfectly valid response to how you have been constantly mistreated for probably your entire life. Your mother's "hurt" is a product of her disorder, and is not ultimately your fault.

Remember, when people say they did their best, it's okay to tell yourself that "their best" absolutely sucked. Just because they did "their best" doesn't make it good enough.

I'm sorry things are bad with your H. From reading here, I'm thinking a marriage counselor would be absolutely appropriate in this case, but if he's avoiding it, I'm not sure what the next step should be.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thank you, Andeza and Cat, for seeing me and sharing your words of comfort and wisdom, and of perspective. It helps

I feel less alone. This forum is incredible and it's all because of such amazingly supportive and empathetic members like you guys.

DH just booked a therapy appointment after another round of frustrations expressed today.... So that's progress and now I'm reflecting on it.

I realize that with my M / FOO that same anger I expressed to him would just end up with scandalized faces, thinking I'm mean/sensitive, followed by gossip and undermining and thinking I'm completely the problem. I won't lie....DH thinks I'm part of the problem (sometimes completely) but at least he's trying and responding to the hurt, showing that he's owning what's his.

So much of my hurt comes out as anger! Anger that has been buried by years of scapegoating and gaslighting.

I'm sure a lot of members here can relate that feeling angry always feels outsized to the situation? I got results and now I feel guilty or like a hypocrite, or like I need to apologize.

But maybe if I had had a FOO that allowed me to express anger in a healthy way to begin with I wouldn't be here now. If I could have used anger to signal the end of the line and my limits....

Feeling a lot of anger at FOO now! It does not feel good or any better than just plain hurt but oh well.

[Cat of the Canals]

PDmom was the only person ever allowed to be angry. And if she was angry then it was everyone's duty to circle the wagons and make things right. My husband used to tell me often, "You're allowed to be angry." I so felt like anger was a "bad" emotion, probably because it was always used as a tool of manipulation by PDmom.

So on the one hand, sometimes our anger may seem out of proportion, but I think that's usually because it's a case where we've let something go... and go... and go... and finally we can't take anymore, and we scream, "ENOUGH!"

It's ironic, too, because one of the reasons we let it go for so long is because we think to ourselves. "Surely they know this is hurting me. Surely they can see that. Surely any reasonable person would know this isn't right." We wait for them to see it, but they never do. And at some point we realize, "This isn't going to stop until I speak up." And then the moment we set the boundary, everything shifts and we're being "unreasonable" and our response is "over the top" and they don't know "where it came from." 

It's absurd that you would have to explain to your parents how their smear campaign against your family has hurt you. Completely ridiculous! That shouldn't have to be explained to anyone. So of course you're angry about the initial abuse, and then further infuriated by the fact that they act like this rift is a complete mystery to them! It's gaslighting to the nth degree.

[DistanceNotDefense]

PDmom was the only person ever allowed to be angry. And if she was angry then it was everyone's duty to circle the wagons and make things right.

Thank you Cat - and boy is this a familiar dynamic. My parents, older siblings were allowed their anger or any strong emotion - me on the other hand.....

It's absurd that you would have to explain to your parents how their smear campaign against your family has hurt you. Completely ridiculous! That shouldn't have to be explained to anyone. So of course you're angry about the initial abuse, and then further infuriated by the fact that they act like this rift is a complete mystery to them! It's gaslighting to the nth degree.

Yes....this gaslighting is so bad I often gaslight myself. Find cracks and holes where maybe their confusion over all this makes sense. But it has never added up.

Just finished reading some really good literature on how anger is something you have to go through and process on the road to forgiveness (and grief, too). Both forgiveness of yourself for being taken advantage of not displaying enough anger to protect yourself, and forgiveness of those who overwhelmed any possibility for a healthy relationship to anger in order to take advantage of you through gaslighting, guilting, shaming, etc. so you are finally free of them.

I'm the type more prone to fast-forward to harmonious emotions like forgiveness and magnanimity. Always thinking like, that's just a button you can push, right? And anger will then just transform into something different and ultimately better and more productive, if you can just intellectualize it enough. It can always be transmuted. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what I was taught to do.

But in working on my own codependency, and seeing where I tend to put myself in positions that inevitably drain me in close relationships (including my marriage), and realizing that the only way I will grow and hold the line and stop that from ever happening again is through anger....is so scary. When anger has only always been punished with threat of abandonment. But for me to be healthy, I have to express it a lot more often.

I feel I can "act it out" in the way codependency (taught to me by FOO) hurts me in my partnership and within the partnership, but it's so frightening to put that into practice. When all I've been taught is how anger is hurtful, bad, destructive (and shown that it as nothing but destructive when directed at me by FOO....

But more specifically, that anger is something bad for ME to feel in particular, and something I don't have a right to feel.

I can only hope my partner will be able to handle it as we grow and change. Though I don't think my FOO ever could, not without manipulating it, and that's a painful thought.

I really never thought too deeply about the stages of grief and forgiveness. It's incredible how you only understand some things once you're caught up in them, by experience. At least that is true for me and the idea of anger right now.

Has anyone else here found themselves suddenly in the anger stage of grief? And found themselves having to enact that in their close relationships too in order to heal in NC?

Did you lose more people beyond your FOO to the anger you needed to express, to build those healthy boundaries.

Really just thinking aloud here, and hoping maybe my thought process will help someone possibly too if they can relate.

[Sheppane]

/quote]

Yes. So much I could relate to here and in this thread. I think realising how anger goes underground in these relationships is key. The years of gaslighting you have experienced has the effect of burying all that anger and hurt - so hard to validate it when self doubt caused by gaslighting always lurks in background ready to pounce should you allow these feelings. I know with me once I begin to feel them there is an almost instant " it's not THAT bad , you're overthinking it / you've got it wrong , etc etc. Self gaslighting as you said. And yes when FOO are always quick to relay their " hurt" , tapping into your empathy very quickly. Your Mom  sounds like she  demands that you recognize her feelings but is utterly rejecting of your experience,  pointing the finger at you for being responsible for her feelings and baiting you with false guilt and manipulation. Making you feel you need to explain and making you need to shout SO LOUD to have your feelings heard.  Because her hurt is WORSE. You don't need to step in. She is the only person who is responsible for her feelings. And just because she feels a certain way doesn't mean ANYONE else caused that reality. This is how the game goes.  If you say that you are hurting,  hers is worse! Yours is invalidated. She demands that you attend to her feelings which you did not cause. And because you are refusing to do that it she then unleashes the beast of all the ways you have " harmed " her and the ensuing smear campaign.  In my view this is all about control. It is not about having an honest conversation it is to put you back where she wants you . Sadly the desire to hear you is not there as it is about her.

Yes anger and grief I am going through this too. Working on myself I can see how my anger has always been repressed because I have always either excused another's behaviour or been gaslit to think I caused it. And that I " deserve" what came next. I am at a stage now of looking at it and feeling the anger of " this is not okay". I think my self worth had to grow enough to see it like that, to value myself enough. My grief has been ongoing for years but I think suddenly getting in touch with my anger which I never felt before is paving the way for me to hopefully move forward free of resentment. Anc to free myself of all of it. My anger of course was always there but was buried underneath a range of self destructive behaviours. As soon as they healed the anger has become more palpable. It is a bit scary as others anger has always terrified me. However I think allowing it to be processed within me, to let it go, is an important part of grieving. Otherwise we step over our anger without healing the wounds underneath it.

Stay strong 

[DistanceNotDefense]

I know with me once I begin to feel them there is an almost instant " it's not THAT bad, you're overthinking it / you've got it wrong , etc etc.

Gosh this is so me. It's really hard to catch it too, and I think in the moment what goes through my mind is "I'm a good person! I need to be the bigger person!" and I feel afraid of the retaliation for getting angry....when it's just better that I get angry or at least show frustration I think.

I have wondered if EMDR therapy helps with these feelings.... can anyone here speak to this? I'm thinking of going in to finally get trauma therapy, talk therapy has helped but not enough to deal with all the CPTSD flashbacks, anger, anxiety of the past year's experiences.

Thank you Sheppane for saying all you said about my M and how she comes off in your eyes. It's always validating to hear that. I have decided that there is nothing I could say to her she would listen to if she hasn't listened to anything already. I think it's time I start accepting she lives in a different reality and is an A+++++ gaslighting extraordinaire.

I'm sorry you've gone through it too Sheppane. Do you feel it helped you to express more anger to people close to you in your personal relationships? In ones where it was safe to do so? I think that's where I'm stuck in my grieving process, is being afraid that my anger is nothing but hurtful when expressed and if it's worth it....but it seems it really wants to come out in order to prevent repeating the patterns that made me so easily exploited by family.

[JustKathy]

And to make matters worse this all comes off the tail end of a fight with my extremely troubled DH (VERY troubled after all this stuff) deliberately ignoring me and continuing his behavior even when I tell him it hurts me....he carries on.
And he even gives me the same schpiel my M does. "I'M hurting" he says and tries to bring the focus to that, I have to fight so hard for my hurt to be seen. And it's still not seen.
What about me?
I am on a drive crying and wondering aloud, "does anyone see my hurt or care about me?"
How did I end up here so invisible? Posting in here so that my hurt is visible somewhere.... thank you in advance to anyone who's read this far

Oh, Distance, I am SO sorry for the pain you're having to deal with. I cried reading your post because I'm in that same place right now. A crisis with my FOO, a husband who just doesn't want to hear about it, won't support me, won't comfort me. And all I can do is sit and cry and wonder how I ended up in this place, so alone, with no one to hug me and tell me it's going to be okay. I'm not trying to make this about me, just sharing so you know that I understand what you're going through. I get it. I really do.

I wish I had the words to make things better for you. I'm glad that you found this board because posting here can help so much. When I'm here I know that I'm not alone. Neither are you. You're not invisible because I can hear you and I'm thinking of you. Keep posting. You're among friends here.

You are not alone.

[Sheppane]

" Do you feel it helped you to express more anger to people close to you in your personal relationships? In ones where it was safe to do so?"

I think what I'm finding now is that I am a) allowing myself to feel anger when it is appropriate  and b) expressing it out loud , often to myself!

Maybe it is early days of me getting used to anger LOL ! Where it is helping me in disordered relationships is ventilating my angry feelings say after a call or interaction. That may be me, on my own in a room just telling myself out loud how angry I feel. Or with minor things / situations say something happens in a store and I come home and tell DH guess what happened and I felt so angry/ or labelling some behaviour of someone else's as something that drives me nuts ! So I guess it is allowing me to not always have to " like" everything? Not to always instantly turn on the empathy? Not that there is anything wrong with being empathic but I guess I have spent years out of balance in that respect with the result that when anger was warning me to protect myself/ put in boundaries I ignored it and made allowances instead , always.

So I guess I'm practicing a new skill in safe situations, where allowing the anger feels liberating. I don't always need to express it to the subject if that makes sense . For example I can feel angry with a work colleague for x/yz and just allowing myself to blow off steam about it afterwards " geez that really made me mad " feels liberating . I'm hoping practicing like this in small ways will make me more comfortable with it as an emotion. Before if someone did something which would normally stir up feelings of anger in me , I would deny the anger and instead waste a lot of energy going into their head and trying to understand them.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Thank you JustKathy - sorry for my delay I just checked in here....

I'm SO sorry you're going through this too. It all boils down to, us just not getting the unconditional love we needed as children and now as adult children of narcissists. The absence of that can hurt so much. We hope another can replace that but they can't.

My husband àlways under delivers for me. In fact, everyone probably will, knowing that urge to seek out and replace family and parents with more loving figures will always exist. I see that stretching out over years and years and feel some despair. I hope therapy will make it better at some point, to help with the feelings of loneliness and never being seen/cared for....flashing back to being the unconsoled child.

I meet people who have little to no relationship with their families and who yet don't feel abandoned by them at all, and who don't have a whole lot of friends either....I wonder how do they function without feeling completely orphaned? Why do I have to feel like an orphan????

You're not alone either, JustKathy

Thank you for posting....I don't feel you're making it about you, it helps me feel less alone! Thank you so much. : bighug:

Thank you for sharing too Sheppane, that's a really good description of "practicing" anger....haha. I should give it a try. I sometimes feel like I skirt or avoid anger because I don't want to be a nag, don't want to overwhelm my DH with so much negative feedback. But there needs to be a balance! Still need to figure it all out.

[Sheppane]

. It all boils down to, us just not getting the unconditional love we needed as children and now as adult children of narcissists. The absence of that can hurt so much.

Yes. This is it. It is SO painful. The eternal desire for unconditional love. You put it so well Distance.

I have often wondered too how others who have little contact with their FOO seem to manage it without the same levels of feelings of abandonment and hurt. I guess circumstances are different but I think growing up in dysfunction of any type can be so confusing,  so full of mixed messages that it provokes a certain type of pain and hope to be finally seen and heard. That maybe one day.  Or for the ( in my case ) better times of the past to come back,  the times when I felt I had unconditional love. Except for me that was enmeshment , not the same thing. And leaving enmeshment has meant withdrawal of love. What a tangled Web.

Thank you for sharing this Distance . It helps to know I'm not alone.

[Boat Babe]

The unconsoled child ....   That just floored me.

[DistanceNotDefense]

It is painful Sheppane but wow it's a bit if relief to come here and hear from people who totally get it. For that I'm grateful, that I can get some reprieve....I cant imagine how people survived this stuff without some sort of support group or therapy. Probably explains a lot about how and why dealing with narcissism seems to be so common now...maybe people used to not survive it at all I would imagine (that thought depresses me)

Thank you Boat Babe - unconsoled child, that about perfectly describes it for me.

[Maxtrem]

Thank you so much for your post which really resonated with me! I hear and anticipate your pain like everyone else here and I am deeply sorry that you are going through this!

Pd's are very self centered and self absorbed, so obviously your pain is invisible to them and they won't care. 

I stopped telling my uBPDm a long time ago that I can have problem.  For example, if I'm afraid of losing my job because 30% of the jobs were cut in 1 year at my employer, I'm an ingrate who's just thinking about me, because she's going through much worse things and I'm too selfish to see it! Plus if my job is ever cut it's because I'm not good, not because the company has bad results, that's what my uBPDm tells me... 

PD's are also great actors to present their suffering much worse than it is, in an effort to make ours less so.