Hoarding Debt?

[j_curren]

In my 25 year relationship, his debts became more massive and complicated.  Always tied to his newest 'business idea'    From a few thousand that he invested in the promising MLM to a massive amount owed to various creditors.  It is a pattern of debt building up, me discovering it, figuring out ways to manage it, and then he would start all over.   

Do people hoard debt?  I feel like it gives him something to focus on instead of working on himself.   Just a theory.
It also conveniently played on my biggest fears and delayed my leaving for years.  So, bonus points for all of that.

[1footouttadefog]

I had a mentally ill friend who made very good money. At the same time he had alot of debt.

I think he racked up the debt at times when he was manic. He would get business ideas or start a Hobbie and go all in buying things related.

I also think that the debt and paying bills late etc gave him stimulus outside of himself and his internal problems and he thrived on the self created crisis.

[SonofThunder]

My uNPDf was the way you describe.  It all came crashing down in a few years ago and now has zero assets and manipulation trophies are all he can acquire. 

My opinion is that PD's, especially NPD's live in a dreamworld quest for self-trophies.  They believe their wild ideas are the best and will go into debt to fund them, and when the trophy of one idea starts to lose its shine, they desire a new one.

If they have enough assets to borrow against, they will risk it for the next new shiny trophy.  They live for these shiny trophies of perpetual emptiness. 

SoT

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

You all described my life.  His search for the shiny trophies and refusal to actually get a job, sunk me deeper and deeper into feeling trapped in the relationship and then 100% responsible for financial stability and our son.  I was being financially abused.

This summer, he really crossed a line and I was thrown Out of the FOG. Decided to end the relationship.   It was like a huge weight off my shoulders.

We are still living together during the divorce process, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I can not wait 

His refusal to contribute financially and regularly was so aggravating.  He didn't appreciate my hard work and profession.  However, he manipulated me and took advantage of all my strengths.  If I bought shoes for my son, he'd say, "why can't I have any" - it was like living with a child.   

[Hepatica]

SonofThunder,

I never thought of that quest for a trophy as an NPD characteristic before. But of course it is! My uNPDfather is a hoarder of things. I understand it better now, thinking of it as trophy collecting, gone terribly awry. He gets a rush when he goes on the hunt for something, gets it, and then basically lets it rot inside his house and various other buildings he's stored the objects. It's eerie because if he valued the objects he'd care for them, but he cares only for the 'hunting' for the objects. It must give him a huge hit of dopamine or whatever chemical is involved with that sort of seeking. He also reveals more and more NPD qualities as he ages. He is a megalomaniac, so arrogant it's almost comical.

They live for these shiny trophies of perpetual emptiness. 

Isn't that the sad truth!

[Andeza]

"Shiny trophy of perpetual emptiness," sounds like a joke a video game developer would play on the gamers...

Hoarding debt. I don't know that the hoarding is about the debt... but debt is definitely produced by the hoarding. Acquiring "things" is their addiction. They feel good about getting these things, get a hit from it, then toss it aside and forget about it unless, heaven forbid, someone tries to get rid of it. Something a financial guy on YT says is that "100% of addicts go broke."

[j_curren]

"Shiny trophy of perpetual emptiness," sounds like a joke a video game developer would play on the gamers..  love it.
I was thinking name of emo rock band.

Yes!  His businesses were always empty props to make him look good.  And, he couldn't handle answering to other people. 
ooh, and the expensive hobbies, and the car he can't afford, on and on.

thank you for the insights.

[Poison Ivy]

Some of this behavior might stem from a "the rules do not apply to me" personality. This is part of narcisissm, right?

[SonofThunder]

Some of this behavior might stem from a "the rules do not apply to me" personality. This is part of narcisissm, right?

My experience with my uNPDf is that he is so confident in his ideas, that he is willing to put himself and my mother (and in the past us two children) at great risk (physically and financially). The truth was that my uNPDf was very successful at his first entrepreneurial business venture, and that provided assets and HUGE shiny trophies of self-success to display around the community.  Just because he is NPD didn't initially make him a bad business person. 

He was a brilliant business person, but sadly was willing to run-over anyone in his path to success and did.  I use the word 'was' because his debt-risk eventually failed and he lost it all, including his mind, as he fell fast into a diagnosed state of depression and woe is me.  He still (in his 80's) has no assets and believes everyone else is the cause for his fall.  A true Nebuchadnezzar story.

My experiences are that financial worth assets in the hands of a NPD provide the ability to:

-borrow against the assets.

-use the assets to manipulate others (positively = kindness facade) for more NPD trophies.

-use the assets to manipulate others (negatively = control) for more NPD trophies and to keep others from success so the only trophies belong to the NPD.

But the success and assets also provide a NPD a false sense of security, therefore the willingness to take larger risks increases. 

Poison Ivy, it is in this success condition that my NPD went beyond common sense and into the "the rules don't apply to me", that led to his financial and mental demise.  I did not experience that idea until he had received his first shiny trophy.  Prior to the trophy, he made calculated, good entrepreneurial risky decisions. 

I am also an entrepreneurial person who took calculated risks and was gifted success in my ventures, but i am always planning and calculating based on the 'rules', to reduce my risks. 

SoT

[j_curren]

SOT - reading your response is reaffirming but also makes my stomach drop.  Your uNPDf sounds very similar to my uNPDh.

He always said he was the best option for our investments.  He is a talented and smart, but can only focus on being part of the elite businesspeople in our community.  For years, I believed if he could achieve X, the roller coaster would stop.  I did everything I could to help him with the business.  Of course, I was blamed for the business failure, the marriage failure, and will always be blamed for his relationship with our kids.  I accept that and won't bother trying to change his mind.

It's like he was climbing higher and higher and the whole ledge just disappeared beneath his (our) feet.  As his business failed, his change in personality and the hidden debt left me stunned for years.  I'm still in shock how horrible it's turned out.

He bulldozed and tore down me down for wanting input. Gentle put downs at first, 'honey, s-corp taxes are just complex, I don't expect you to understand' to 10 years later  'if you don't sign this we're going to lose the house and go bankrupt'  He also used similar tactics on his business partner. 

Decisions based on a plan and 'rules'.  Hahaha.   He's way too extraordinary for that!

[SonofThunder]

SOT - reading your response is reaffirming but also makes my stomach drop.  Your uNPDf sounds very similar to my uNPDh.

He always said he was the best option for our investments.  He is a talented and smart, but can only focus on being part of the elite businesspeople in our community.  For years, I believed if he could achieve X, the roller coaster would stop.  I did everything I could to help him with the business.  Of course, I was blamed for the business failure, the marriage failure, and will always be blamed for his relationship with our kids.  I accept that and won't bother trying to change his mind.

It's like he was climbing higher and higher and the whole ledge just disappeared beneath his (our) feet.  As his business failed, his change in personality and the hidden debt left me stunned for years.  I'm still in shock how horrible it's turned out.

He bulldozed and tore down me down for wanting input. Gentle put downs at first, 'honey, s-corp taxes are just complex, I don't expect you to understand' to 10 years later  'if you don't sign this we're going to lose the house and go bankrupt'  He also used similar tactics on his business partner. 

Decisions based on a plan and 'rules'.  Hahaha.   He's way too extraordinary for that!

J_curren,

What you described is the experience of my mother.  She was basically told for decades, to get out of the way, as his NPD financial saavy would make them rich (and it did at first) and for her to be his full and silent support system with cooking, cleaning, raising us kids and doing the multiple-businesses paperwork.   

When the increased riskiness in attempts to gain more all came crashing down, he blamed my mother for letting 'them' get into the mess.  When very tough periods of time would arise in the crashing down, he would pack his bags and go off in his camper for months on long hunting excursions, leaving her with everything to resolve. 

To this day, my NPDf will blame everything on her, others who were involved and also situational things (economy, government, banks unwillingness to give him more time to defer his loans) but never himself. 

Im sorry you experience this as well. 

SoT

[j_curren]

Yes, SOT.  My uNPDh will leave for fishing/camping trips, and return like nothing happened.  Not as extreme as yours, but I know the mixture of relief and despair I felt when he would take off.    The last time he left, he returned to his papers being served. 
I really caught him off guard. 
On a bright note, he always underestimates me, so I am having lots of small successes out-maneuvering him in this divorce process.  I try to focus on how fortunate I am that I can make changes. But I am also grieving for the husband he could have been and father that my children deserve.
best,
Ms. Curren

[SonofThunder]

Yes, SOT.  My uNPDh will leave for fishing/camping trips, and return like nothing happened.  Not as extreme as yours, but I know the mixture of relief and despair I felt when he would take off.    The last time he left, he returned to his papers being served. 
I really caught him off guard. 
On a bright note, he always underestimates me, so I am having lots of small successes out-maneuvering him in this divorce process.  I try to focus on how fortunate I am that I can make changes. But I am also grieving for the husband he could have been and father that my children deserve.
best,
Ms. Curren

J_Curren,

I understand your experiences, having been raised by a uNPDf and then I married what I experienced in him, but in female form... a uNPD/BPDw.  I enjoyed reading your positive sentences of victory:

"The last time he left, he returned to his papers being served. I really caught him off guard."

"On a bright note, he always underestimates me, so I am having lots of small successes out-maneuvering him in this divorce process."

" I try to focus on how fortunate I am that I can make changes."


These are encouraging.  Also you are surely in good company here at Out of the FOG, including myself, with:

"I am also grieving for the husband he could have been and father that my children deserve."

Best wishes for continued success in your journey forward, and I look forward to reading positives of self-victory.  I want to also congratulate you for the bravery, focus and stamina that i read between the lines of your writing. You are leaving to protect yourself, in the middle of familial financial collapse, which in itself, the financial woes are enough to buckle the knees of most people. 

You are a strong and courageous person.   

SoT