MC so important and What is PD capable or not capable of?

[takeadeepbreath]

I can clearly see the difference when I slip up and resort back to JADE ing with my PD spouse, justifying myself, explaining myself, simply speaking my mind as the truth I see it . . . so risky and ineffective with a PD spouse  / (and any PD person?).  I'm still learning the difference between setting important  boundaries (which I have now seen can make a positive impact)  and mistakenly explaining some truth to PD as I see it, which as you know can quickly lead to a spiral of hell.   

OMG, what a learning process.   What a strange mind-shift to make -  before coming Out of the FOG thinking  'PDs simply in a bad mood again and being mean, not getting what she wants'  . . . to after Out of the FOG:   PD's brain is incapable of fairness, equity, true generosity.  PD is incapable of important levels of self-respect and truly respecting other people.  PD is incapable of having a fair conversation, (or they have learned how to mimic/fake it when necessary).   PD is incapable of meeting their own needs, let alone meeting the needs of other people.

[escapingman]

Yep, the only way to interact with a PD is to MC. But even this is hard work as they keep pushing for reactions (good or bad). It is impossible to have the smallest conversation as it is all about providing fuel for them. I think the only way is to go no contact, but this is hard when kids are involved.

Now when you are seeing your spouse for what she is, what's your plan?

[FayDHM]

Hi takeadeepbreath,

We all have moments when we regress into JADEing, as it is natural way for humans to react to defend themselves. Sometimes we can do well for long stretches of time, but triggers always lurk underneath. Things can seem stable, then one nasty comment can just unravel all of that protection.

In our minds we know the proper way to handle it. But when we feel devalued, misunderstood, or disrespected, it hurts and we want to lash out and fight back, therefore  JADE.

Trying to agree on truth with a PD can feel nearly impossible. They can be so locked into being “right” that they’ll make you sorry for challenging them. It’s hard not to take it personally, because in those moments, we feel the unfairness of it. Sometimes it gets to the point of absurdity- almost like a defective part that is stuck in his psyche forever and ever. And he evidently likes it that way.

Your last sentence really spoke to me:
“ PD is incapable of meeting their own needs, let alone meeting the needs of other people..”

This has been a problem for me for awhile. H is incapable of meeting his own needs. For me, I understand how parentification pretty much buried forever the idea that his needs even mattered. That belief iOS so deeply rooted at this point that it’s pointless to try.

More frustrating- he knows he needs to do this for himself, but he avoids it like he’s being paid to. He has no goals, no ambition, no dreams. He’ll say he will find ways to help himself - has even gone so far as to outline things he could do to improve. But he NEVER actually does any of it. It’s always a dead end - I have
felt for a long time his fear and stubbornness have held me back from the life I wanted.

Forgive yourself when you slip up. We all do from time to time - I can only pretend and keep things inside for so long. It goes against my nature and then one day, I just can’t take it anymore and I lose it. It should be cathartic to have a productive conversation about the state of the marriage, but it devolves into nightmare very quickly.

Good news is that I have gotten better at not playing the frankly, stupid and childish games. I am sick of living with an emotional brat/bully. I am tired of wondering what the heck happened to the person I married, built a life with, and had so much confidence and hope for.

Also, this:
“ PD is incapable of having a fair conversation, (or they have learned how to mimic/fake it when necessary). ”

So true!

- Absolutely MUST get the last word - every  time.

- Always on the defense, treats me like I am an enemy - esp. when I want to talk about my concerns

- Has to be contrarian- even over the most minor/insignificant things. Seems to get a sick pleasure out of squashing any constructive, fair, mature conversation.

- Offers no comfort when he upsets me - would rather sit and be offended and annoyed at me for “starting things”

- Then there is the next day, sometimes longer, when he still carries around the “weight” of being a part of such emotional upheaval. He is just so tired and emotionally drained from it all. Lots of passive aggressive comments about how the previous day was ruined because *I* got triggered (by him, of course, but I guess he thinks I am just bored and looking for conflict, looking to sob for hours) - so I pulled him into a “talk” - what- just to punish him?

The great irony is that if he would only listen without judgement, not build a wall of defense, fulfill his emotional responsibilities in the marriage, attempt to meet my stated needs and state his own needs so I can fulfill my responsibility, we would probably never fight again. Or at least not have the same fight we have had for 25 years with no change.

And yet he would rather be a petulant child who needs to control everything. Sometimes I feel like he would rather toss me under a bus than work through his own painful issues so we could then flourish together. He would rather stay stuck - who cares how it affects me?

You’re correct, a learning process it definitely is. Painful as can be - I may grow through it, but will still be haunted  by being wrong about what I thought we had, by what we turned into,  by fear of how it may get worse, and then what?

I want to look forward to my future. I feel like he just wants his miserable past and present. I really don’t know what to do. Questioning if I am even in love with him anymore.

I am glad to hear that Out of the FOG has helped you have a breakthrough in your perspective. Now you can heal.  I hope your situation gets better and that you build on the strength you’ve found.

[takeadeepbreath]

Thank you for your responses FayDHM and escapingman.

Escapingman - I have noticed the 'narc fuel, or narc supply'' that people with PD are always looking for.  They are basically always looking to be and feel like they are in complete control of situations and / or people. 
I will take on the conversation of relaying some of my immediate and future plans / goals. . . hopefully forthcoming soon, God willing.

FayDHM -
"if he would only listen without judgement, not build a wall of defense, fulfill his emotional responsibilities in the marriage, attempt to meet my stated needs and state his own needs so I can fulfill my responsibility,"

I think these sentences that you wrote wisely sum up so much of what allows for a healthy relationship.  True listening, true sharing of what each is feeling, being emotionally responsible, and stating and meeting each other's needs. 
And therein explains some of the problems in our spousal relationships.  People with PD I think have basic trouble understanding where their emotions are coming from and why they are feeling certain emotions at certain times.   And because we are the one in the room and talking to them, they attribute all the emotions to us and blame us -  we are the reason they are feeling defensive, scared, angry, withdrawn . . . in reality, I think they are reliving CPTSD or something from their childhood / teenage years / early attempts at adulthood.  Any time anyone knocks on their wall of defense, they have a fight/flight response, from anyone or anything that might disturb their alternate reality.

   This 'wall' makes it so important for them to get the last word in during any disagreement.   I think this wall is set up as their defense mechanism, their 'alternate reality' (early in my awareness, this is what I decided to name it).  It takes a lot of work to maintain this alternate reality, (a lie), this defense wall . . . . but for whatever reason it keeps them feeling safe in their world.   Is the wall impenetrable?  I don't know,  what do you think . . ?   I have seen at times some small breeches and what seem like minor breakthroughs, but I don't know if it is just an act. . .

And thank you for saying it's OK to slip up.  I think I needed to hear that.   I fall back to perfectionist thinking sometimes.

I truly cannot remember the last time when PD asked 'how was I feeling?'.  Or maybe she did, but not in a way where I felt truly cared about.  I worry / wonder if the problem may be PD is simply unable to truly care for me, or anyone for that matter. 
What else can I do but have a glimmer of hope that the wall can be broken or at least reduced, and that the PD in them gets reduced or vanishes.  Until then, we can attempt to bring them (maybe trick them?) to get them the help they need.  I imagine, at some point we need to do what we have to do in order to preserve our well-being and protect ourselves.


takeadeepbreath

[FayDHM]

Takeadeepbreath,

You said:

“ This ‘wall’ makes it so important for them to get the last word in during any disagreement.   I think this wall is set up as their defense mechanism, their 'alternate reality' (early in my awareness, this is what I decided to name it).  It takes a lot of work to maintain this alternate reality, (a lie), this defense wall . . . . but for whatever reason it keeps them feeling safe in their world.   Is the wall impenetrable?  I don’t know,  what do you think . . ?”

I wholeheartedly agree regarding the defensive wall. Intellectually, I understand why, especially after decades of observing his family dynamics. It took me years to come to the realization that it is an ‘alternate reality’ of sorts. It was the only explanation - how could this usually sensitive, caring & thoughtful person turn into such a cold enemy when confronted with bad behavior?  It just didn’t make sense.

Through therapy and my own C-PTSD diagnosis, I began to understand why we fought, what triggered each of us, and how it shaped these horrible episodes. He came with me to therapy a few times- he actually learned a lot about our different emotional styles, triggers, and his upbringing shaped his defensive stances. We both benefited from it, but implementation in triggered moments proved a lot more challenging.

I have tortured myself at times trying to figure out if he actually has a PD or lots of fleas. After our meetings with my T, (she didn’t exactly diagnose him as it wouldn’t be in line with professional standards- he not being her patient-) she came to the conclusion that he is most likely not PD, but has some very serious unresolved trauma that he protects instead of working through it. It helped me have some empathy for him.

For awhile, things were great - better than ever, even. We stopped fighting, had productive discussions & I was finally stabilized on meds.

Then, it all came crashing down when he began to be a caretaker for his elderly parent., who got a terminal cancer diagnosis right as the pandemic began. Nearly two years later, he is still caretaking. He seems to have regressed, he is withdrawn, wrapped up in his own suffering. Now, once again, the wall seems impenetrable.

So to answer your question- is it indeed impenetrable?  I don’t know. What I do believe is that the other person has to want to heal their wounds. My H knows, intellectually at least, that his are real and need healing. He has gone to therapy on his own, but never long enough to make real progress.
But there have been plenty of times I was the one ready to give up on the whole thing, and he fought harder to make it work than I.

He actually wanted to go to therapy with me. In sessions, he wasn’t defensive, was respectful of the therapist. He took her words to heart. She encouraged us to do different exercises- I didn’t want to, he wanted to do the work.

I guess the hardest thing is the feeling of is he or isn’t he PD, how much is real and how much is an act? These moments when he is cold in the face of my suffering don’t hurt any less because I realize he is frozen in his alt-reality. I know those are my own demons to work through. But honestly, I still don’t know.

These folks never learn emotional coping mechanisms or regulation. And, as you stated, they don’t understand their emotions or what to do with them. The problem is that when a person shuts down emotionally, they may be protecting themselves from perceived hurt, but doing so also blocks them from feeling joy.

It’s sad, really. They never let themselves experience  a full range of emotions due to fear. So in a way, they’re not really fully alive. They’re in a controlled, self-imposed prison, serving a life-sentence for not helping themselves heal. It’s a static, gray place with occasional moments of happiness. But I feel for these people that true joy and emotional depth isn’t there.

[bat123]

Hi, takeadeepbreath.  I think you have written a good analysis, and you ask a lot of good questions!   I, too, have spent many years wondering if my uNPD spouse really cares about me, or whether he can really change.  I do think he cares about me in his own, limited way.  We have many good times together.  He is capable of being affectionate, caring, and supportive.  Yet in the next moment he can be unbelievably cruel and abusive.  A healthy person can still feel connected to their partner even when they feel hurt.  But a PD has trouble doing that.  Their attachment to us is very insecure.  When they feel vulnerable, they lash out.  The only way they can tolerate being in a relationship is by exerting a high degree of control.  I feel that my partner loves me in the only way he knows how— it is an insecure and conditional kind of love.  I savor the good days and I expect the bad ones.  The larger question is, do I deserve this kind of relationship?  After 25 years, am I ready to finally make my own well-being a priority?   Those are the questions I am now starting to ask myself.

[takeadeepbreath]

Thank you FayDHM and bat123,

FayDHM  - some people and posts on Out of the FOG have described the PD person in their lives as having / witnessing 'PD flare ups'.   I think they can last days, months or years.  Personally, it feels like my PDw has been in a PD flare up for 3 or 4 years.
 
Your writing got me thinking how maybe your H and my W are possibly having a long flare up for similar reasons.  My uPDw flare up coincides with my family moving in with her mother, who I suspect (or know) has a PD, and who I, more recently came to realize is responsible for inflicting tremendous amounts of childhood trauma and beyond to uPDw.   This flare up correlation has made me realize recently we have to move out of my MIL's house ASAP, and I have actually been in and out of hotels for the past month with PDw and family, doing this 'experiment',  trying to see if getting her away from her mother helps.  (also looking for an apartment as the eventual fix . . .)
Anyway, it was a thought to ask if you think somehow getting your H away from his parent, and his current caretaking role might help.

bat123 - thank you.  I recently have been thinking about the word 'love' regarding my PD spouse, and what kind of love is PD capable of giving.  Maybe you're right, it's there, but it is conditional and not secure.   I see / witness the lovebombing type of love she lavishes on our kids.   It doesn't seem real to me anymore, since coming Out of the FOG.   
   I only became more fully Out of the FOG about 3 months ago (with help from some heavy reading on this website) although I was able to unravel my PDw's manipulation tactics about a year ago, which is the start of when my awareness started to grow and the fog started to lift a little bit.  I have been married to uPDw over 10 years now.   

OMG, since coming Out of the FOG. . .such moments of sadness and anger,  but at least some hope.  I am extremely grateful for some clarity and the truth.   

[CagedBirdSinging]

Takeadeepbreath, I'm sorry for what you're going through. MC is a very important strategy, but I've found it important to break it sometimes in order to let xpdH to show his true colours- so I know it's not just in my head. At one point I had been MC for over a year, and pd was able to claim everything was fine, we had no problems. In reality things were only 'fine' because I was biting my tongue all the time. I needed to break MC in order to see the truth of his pd, to give me the courage to finally leave.

[escapingman]

This is such a good discussion!

Reflecting about some of what has been written.

PD flare ups: My stbx always have had flare ups after beeing in contact with her highly controlling uPD mother. But since me moved up to live in the same town as her,  I think my stbx has been in a constant flare up for the last 10 years with only occasionaly "flare downs". I have many times been thinking if things would get better if we moved far away from her, I think it would but not good enough. 

Takeadeepbreath wrote "I truly cannot remember the last time when PD asked 'how was I feeling?'.  Or maybe she did, but not in a way where I felt truly cared about.  I worry / wonder if the problem may be PD is simply unable to truly care for me, or anyone for that matter."
My stbx asks me often if I am OK, problem is that if I am not and tell her I am just a burden to her and he either ignores it or tells me to get over it. She often also blames it on me that it is my fault someone treated my in a way I was unhappy about.

I have also spent so much time trying to decide if she has a PD or if it is PTSD and fleas. But since it is abuse either way and she refuse to change her behaviour for any length of time I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter.

My stbx thinks I m depressed, yes she got that right, but it'a because of her and not all reasons she invents. But the only reason she think I am depressed is because I am MC and GR towards her. As soon as I stop MC it will quickly feed her ego and she will soon bait me into JADE. MC is the only way to live with someone like her, but boy does it makes life miserable to not show any emotions.