When Requests For Help Are Traps

[j.banquo]

Thinking about the flip side of what PD people often do when you ask them for help - how they always seem to somehow make the situation worse, or use it against you twelve years later. I'm sure it's common, so anyone else?

• One person I used to know would ask for help, but stick around to ask questions about every single step, and then complain that I was going too fast.


• Another I knew my whole life would ask for help, accept it, heap on gratitude that felt weirdly off, things like "it wouldn't have been possible without you," but within a year disappeared completely.


• Another would use requests for help as a way to violate clear and reasonable boundaries/requests, repeatedly, almost always getting me to blow up even if it took hours.

[Cat of the Canals]

We have always avoided asking my PDmom or PDmil for help because of this. Asking PDmil for help means she's going to come in with all of her own ideas on how/when/what should be done, and she's going to criticize you mercilessly for not already having done it that way. It makes the entire task miserable.

PDmom is more complicated. She can appear helpful, but I feel everything from her comes with strings attached. While she never says out loud that her doing something for me or giving something to me means I owe her, that's always the subliminal message being sent, clear as day. It's why when my SIL dares to complain about PDmom constantly violating their boundaries, she tempers it with, "But she does sooo much for us!"

[GentleSoul]

I came to discover that any requests for help from my PD/alcoholic parents or late husband had very very weighty chains attached.  Also immense gratitude was expected and it would be brought up for many years expecting that gratitude to be repeated.

Also often their "help" made things worse.  Drama and chaos would be created.

So I stopped ever asking for any. 

I am pleasantly surprised now that I no longer have any PD/alcoholics in life that people offer and give help freely and pleasantly.  Is lovely. 

Recently a friend of mine spotted a small problem in my home, he just quietly resolved it!!  I watched in disbelief as he did it.  My mouth literally fell open in shock of someone doing something to help me, not expecting any thanks or making a fuss or expecting a medal! 

[j.banquo]

Recently a friend of mine spotted a small problem in my home, he just quietly resolved it!!  I watched in disbelief as he did it.  My mouth literally fell open in shock of someone doing something to help me, not expecting any thanks or making a fuss or expecting a medal! 

I felt this when I read it: one of my best friends and I lived together as roommates for three years. We had no conflict, ever. If one of us came home first and it was trash day, out went the trash. Whoever came home first that night, in came the trash. Very, very simple, no rules required. We didn't arrange that in advance, lol. It was a real eye-opener.

Years later, I was at his house, and noticed the bathroom door was squeaking. Someone was sleeping on the couch too, and I couldn't handle those two facts coexisting. So when everyone was out one day, I took a few drops of olive oil, and oiled the hinges. It just seemed like common sense.

[GentleSoul]

Recently a friend of mine spotted a small problem in my home, he just quietly resolved it!!  I watched in disbelief as he did it.  My mouth literally fell open in shock of someone doing something to help me, not expecting any thanks or making a fuss or expecting a medal! 

I felt this when I read it: one of my best friends and I lived together as roommates for three years. We had no conflict, ever. If one of us came home first and it was trash day, out went the trash. Whoever came home first that night, in came the trash. Very, very simple, no rules required. We didn't arrange that in advance, lol. It was a real eye-opener.

Years later, I was at his house, and noticed the bathroom door was squeaking. Someone was sleeping on the couch too, and I couldn't handle those two facts coexisting. So when everyone was out one day, I took a few drops of olive oil, and oiled the hinges. It just seemed like common sense.

This was a lovely read, thanks.

Common sense is a beautiful thing, I think.   The "just doing" things is lovely, I always found with  PDs, they wanted have a full blown conference discussion about things.  Such a waste of energy. So dramatic.

[j.banquo]

Common sense is a beautiful thing, I think.   The "just doing" things is lovely, I always found with  PDs, they wanted have a full blown conference discussion about things.  Such a waste of energy. So dramatic.

For the main one I had to deal with, acting normally like that was very dangerous, because once I did something, it usually became my responsibility forever.

Not even if I volunteered; if I was asked once and did it, it was often a new responsibility. Even if I said "to thank you for the wonderful wine you bought, of course!" To make it clear that our transaction (which wasn't a transaction to me, lol, was over and done with.

[Pepin]

We have always avoided asking my PDmom or PDmil for help because of this. Asking PDmil for help means she's going to come in with all of her own ideas on how/when/what should be done, and she's going to criticize you mercilessly for not already having done it that way. It makes the entire task miserable.

PDmom is more complicated. She can appear helpful, but I feel everything from her comes with strings attached. While she never says out loud that her doing something for me or giving something to me means I owe her, that's always the subliminal message being sent, clear as day. It's why when my SIL dares to complain about PDmom constantly violating their boundaries, she tempers it with, "But she does sooo much for us!"

I feel this about DPD MIL: strings attached.  Anything that was asked of her, she went overboard and it was both smothering and eventually actually kind of dehumanizing towards me in a sense.  I felt like I was replaceable - that my presence wasn't necessary because she would try and override everything.  I just didn't matter in her eyes and she wanted things done her way even if I had other ideas or another way of doing things.  I also think that by her going overboard it was indeed a way for her to demand future reciprocity: if she takes care of me then I have to take care of her.  But the thing is though is that I never asked to be taken care of - only a small request here and there.  The beginning of my marriage was essentially about me trying to prove that I was and am a good wife and that I could adequately handle being a mother - despite being motherless from a young age.  I didn't need her to step in on my behalf because I was void of a mother.  And that's the thing -- she never ever has just asked me about anything - what I like or feel or want.  She just did stuff robotically without any sort of genuine thought or care.  I just didn't matter to her because I was in the way.  She only ever wanted her son- DH.  She just wanted to shut me up.  Because why would I complain about someone who just did stuff?  And that's the thing....it was never anything helpful or necessary.

[GentleSoul]

For the main one I had to deal with, acting normally like that was very dangerous, because once I did something, it usually became my responsibility forever.

Not even if I volunteered; if I was asked once and did it, it was often a new responsibility. Even if I said "to thank you for the wonderful wine you bought, of course!" To make it clear that our transaction (which wasn't a transaction to me, lol, was over and done with.

I relate!!  So much.

You have just described my marriage and how everything gradually jumped onto my shoulder and become my job!! 

Happened very slowly.  It all crept over. Went from the initial 50/50 when he was love bombing me in first few years to 99/1.  Which was the real him and "his" 1% had to be applauded!!   

I find it wonderfully healing to be saying these things. 

Late AH used weaponised incompetence too which I only recently discovered is a thing.  I knew he did it but didn't realise it was a PD's tool

Thanks for talking about this.

[Poison Ivy]

My ex also deploys "weaponized incompetence."

[GentleSoul]

My ex also deploys "weaponized incompetence."

Thanks, Poison Ivy.

This morning I happened to come across another PD tool of "weaponised ignorance". 

Tiktik has incredible resources on toxic relationships.

[j.banquo]

Late AH used weaponised incompetence too which I only recently discovered is a thing.  I knew he did it but didn't realise it was a PD's tool

My ex also deploys "weaponized incompetence."

I'd love to hear more about others' experience with this.   I came across the concept in just one article or similar, but they didn't call it a specific name.



The PDP would do this stuff: "but you're so good at it," "Help,  ______ is wrong with the TV," "whenever I try to do ______, it doesn't work."

Clearly these were just all things they didn't want to do or have to figure out on their own.



I've started to wonder about things like this, too:

Your upstairs neighbor (you both own condo units) leaves their sink running in the kitchen. In the USA we don't require an overflow drain in kitchen sinks (bathrooms, yes), so the sink overflows to its heart's content for 20 minutes.

You come home an hour after it stops overflowing...

Three days later, after you're done vacuuming up water from every part of your condo, you have a conversation with the neighbor:

THEM

Hey, wow, so sorry. I even did that last month, too, yikes, but I got to it just as it started. I am such a scatterbrain..! I'll compensate you for your time, and any damages. I just can't believe I did that, I am so, so sorry.

YOU

It happens. I get distracted a lot too, these times are crazy! Could you have a plumber install an overflow drain in the kitchen sink?

THEM

No.

YOU

If you do it, the sink can never, ever overflow again, and I'll even pay for the parts, materials, and plumber.

THEM

No.

So, from then on, whenever you aren't at home, you live with the knowledge that when you get there, it will be raining inside. Again.



I had an experience basically like that, and it was maddening. I've never been sure whether it was some kind of passive aggression, a control thing, or weaponized incompetence. Why else would they mention something like "gosh it happens all the time, I hate it," but refuse to accept the obvious solution that benefits both of you?

Thoughts?

[Poison Ivy]

My ex rarely asked for help. Instead, he did things poorly or didn't do them at all.

[Cat of the Canals]

My ex rarely asked for help. Instead, he did things poorly or didn't do them at all.

My late BIL was like this. I don't think he was PD, just major FLEAs that came out whenever he was struggling emotionally. When he lived by himself in this tiny apartment, he'd let it get so insanely filthy. I'm far from a neat freak, but I'm talking piles and piles of takeout containers, wrappers, and cups. Crusted with food. Dirty laundry EVERYWHERE. Then he'd whine about his apartment being a sh!thole in the waifiest way possible so that we would feel bad and offer to help him clean. And then we'd get there and we'd say, "Where should we start?" And we'd get more waifing: "I don't know. This is pointless. I hate it here." So we'd end up doing most of the work and could MAYBE get him to wash a small load of dishes while we did the real cleaning up.

[j.banquo]

My ex rarely asked for help. Instead, he did things poorly or didn't do them at all.

My late BIL was like this. I don't think he was PD, just major FLEAs that came out whenever he was struggling emotionally. When he lived by himself in this tiny apartment, he'd let it get so insanely filthy. I'm far from a neat freak, but I'm talking piles and piles of takeout containers, wrappers, and cups. Crusted with food. Dirty laundry EVERYWHERE. Then he'd whine about his apartment being a sh!thole in the waifiest way possible so that we would feel bad and offer to help him clean. And then we'd get there and we'd say, "Where should we start?" And we'd get more waifing: "I don't know. This is pointless. I hate it here." So we'd end up doing most of the work and could MAYBE get him to wash a small load of dishes while we did the real cleaning up.

I read the first part of this and thought "I'd better share my experience as someone whose apartment recently went from messy to looking like a 128-year-old hoarder lived there alone." It happened because I was in survival mode, there were obvious sources of abuse, and then they went after me for having an objectively very, very disgusting apartment. They used it to attempt to destroy me completely, actually.

Then I read about the whining and offers to clean, and chuckled. I had to actively hide the horrifying mess, so help wouldn't be forced on me, along with all the consequences. It would've been actually casastrophic to be forced to accept their help, but I was even obstructed from hiring people to clean it for me. Meanwhile hearing "you never ask for help." if only... lol.

[Poison Ivy]

j. banquo, I realize that there can be a variety of reasons for people not asking for help. Now that I'm divorced, my ex's home is his, mine is mine, and the conditions of our homes are rarely discussed. I do occasionally put in a likely futile plea for my ex to clean his house so that our adult children are more willing to visit him, but I accept that this is his and their business, not mine.

[Sapling]

j.banquo "Thinking about the flip side of what PD people often do when you ask them for help - how they always seem to somehow make the situation worse, or use it against you twelve years later." I've definitely had this experience. For years I depended on my uPD sis for all kids of things and she would always make me suffer for asking for help- being late, doing half the task, taking a long time to do something, essentially being passive aggressive about it and painting me as a monster for having any expectations she would keep her word. Once I realised she had PD traits I went elsewhere for support as much as possible.

I have also had trouble asking for help from nons who are attention seekers as well. In my experience people who are used to getting too much attention/sympathy from others find it hard to support people because they are not the center of attention. They tend to create drama instead of just doing the thing and getting on with their lives. I think there are PDs and nons alike who have just been given too much attention and cannot show up for other people in any real way because they cannot tolerate things not being about them.

[1footouttadefog]

When my kids were little all the hinges in the house squeaked.  They all had their own voices.  I could tell what room was being entered by the sound of the door.  I could call out, who is going in the laundry room when your supposed to be taking a nap.  Who is up getting into the pantr?  That's three trips to the bathroom for water get back to bed.  All without getting up from my workbench.

Don't grease my doors without asking first. Lol

My kids thought I had eyes in the back of my head.

[j.banquo]

When my kids were little all the hinges in the house squeaked.  They all had their own voices.  I could tell what room was being entered by the sound of the door.  I could call out, who is going in the laundry room when your supposed to be taking a nap.  Who is up getting into the pantr?  That's three trips to the bathroom for water get back to bed.  All without getting up from my workbench.

Don't grease my doors without asking first. Lol

My kids thought I had eyes in the back of my head.

I love this story.

I bet you had some fun with that, too.

[j.banquo]

The last help I got from the PDP, actually, they took this strategy as far as they could, it was comical.

They took on organizing a thing, just someone's graduation party thing. I don't know how or why I let it happen, or which one of us suggested it.

The instructions were: invite the people on these vcards, approximately this time range, this date, this place, you choose whatever else. They probably asked me 27 questions about - I don't even know what or how; I can't even think of one question to ask.

It must've taken me 10x longer than it would've if I'd just done it myself.