4 night limit "hurtful"

[lindentree]

I'm LC with NPDm and have lived several hours away for the last decade. Just moved into a nicer home and we're looking forward to family visiting, although her visit is always stressful - many moments of normalcy and dreading when the stuff will hit the fan - emotional dysregulation in front our young kids which we won't tolerate. My dH and I decided that four nights from ANY family is our max. Nothing good happens after a 5th night. Everyone (at least us!) just wants to get back to normal. So when my NPDm said they'd like to come around NYE, I was brave and decided to say that four nights is what works for our family. And that is when the upbeat conversation I was delaying turned.

"That is hurtful".
"For your family? We are you family!"
"How can you put a limit on us"
etc.

I went into this phone call prepared for MC and while my heart races, I just acknowledge that that is normal for anyone with C-PTSD. I stayed firm, let her rant/fume a bit, then just brought it back to the fact that we could have a lot of fun that time of year.

Of course she disociated, saying we had told them they couldn't come up for Christmas (not true, she "gets" to be with my sis and her son this year at Xmas so they were going to stay home for that). I chose not to JADE. No matter what I said, she was going to be "hurt".

Honestly she kind of acted like a normal adult after a while, ending with a positive tone and upbeat. So maybe MC will be good for all of us.

This phone call happened by a group text to my sis and I, "Lindentree, we need to talk to discuss Christmas." And when I didn't respond, "Lindentree, did you see my question"...and when I punted to chatting another day, "Lindentree, I thought you were going to call me today but now I'm too tired so let's try tomorrow." I don't like this maniupulation. If a friend treated me like this, I wouldn't talk to them ever again. I have chosen to be LC so I accept this headache.

Looking for validation 

[moglow]

What's hurtful about needing visit limits? How long was she planning to stay?? Problem is, once she's there you have the added pressure to get her out when that day arrives and her (possibly repeated) assertions of what qualifies as "four days."

This is rather last minute for her to be making plans re: visiting, no consideration that you and your family may have other activities while the kids are out of school/work etc. If you dont have something already set for Day 4, find it. Now. You could have limited tickets or have committed to hosts etc. You're not kicking her out but you already made plans etc.

[Cat of the Canals]

I don't like this maniupulation. If a friend treated me like this, I wouldn't talk to them ever again.

Something I repeat often about my own PDmom. It helps remind me that no matter how little contact I allow, it is generous. 

[SunnyMeadow]

What's hurtful about needing visit limits? How long was she planning to stay?? If you dont have something already set for Day 4, find it. Now. You could have limited tickets or have committed to hosts etc. You're not kicking her out but you already made plans etc.

Absolutely, find something that must be done on day 4 that only includes your family. Hey, mom it's always so great to visit with you ( ) but we have to go do _____ on Tuesday.

We do the four day thing too. No more than four days and if it's feasible, 2 to 3 works better. 

[Sneezy]

Four nights is exactly the perfect number of nights for any visit.  Night one is when everybody relaxes and catches up.  Nights two and three, you do some fun things.  By night four, everyone is tired of being together, but it's the last night, so you have a goodbye dinner and reminisce and then everyone is happy to go back to their own lives the next day.

I should write a book on how to be a good houseguest - stay exactly four nights, text any food and drink requests ahead of time, do not judge me for using spices from a jar instead of growing my own, and put your towels in the hamper when you leave.  It's really not that difficult 

[Call Me Cordelia]

...do not judge me for using spices from a jar instead of growing my own...

There's probably a backstory to that.

But lindentree, "How can you put a limit on us?" really says it all, imho. It's your home, your life, your rules. The end. Inviting anyone into that space, for an hour or four nights, is completely a privilege. Which can be offered, or not. Nobody is entitled to visit.

Our far away dysfunctional families operated similarly, by telling us when they were going to show up at our doorstep or when we were to come collect them at the airport. We were expected to clear our schedules for the duration (usually 7-10 days), remember what the fad diet du jour was, and have all their favorite foods stocked.

Miss Manners needs her smelling salts. One is to wait for an invitation, and then not complain about what is offered out of the goodness of the hostess's heart.

For anybody as entitled as our families, approaching as an equal adult, as in fact we are, is always going to be "hurtful." As you rightly say about your mom, she was going to be hurt no matter what you did that was not exactly following her script for your relationship. And even then, sometimes what the script calls for is a big dose of playing the victim and every victim needs a persecutor (drama triangle), and you've been trained to be so obliging.

It's too bad what you're offering doesn't work for them. Maybe another time.  I agree that putting a firm limit is likely going to invite that limit to be tested. It would be within my realm of experience to have a uPDgrandmother suddenly too unwell to travel home, or have it be five nights with four days in the middle or some such malarkey.

[Sneezy]

There's probably a backstory to that.

Yes, I've had a few guests that just criticize everything.  uHMIL used to re-arrange furniture, move lamps from one table to the next, buy me towels (as a gift, supposedly) that changed the entire color scheme of the guest bath to something she liked better.  And Dramatic Auntie always has "helpful suggestions" to "enhance" my cooking.  No matter what I make, she knows of a better way to make it or better ingredients to use.  And - no lie - the one time I suggested using a spoon, rather than her hands, to mix the potato salad, she actually started crying and stormed out of the kitchen.  As you note, and I fully agree with emphasis:

Miss Manners needs her smelling salts. One is to wait for an invitation, and then not complain about what is offered out of the goodness of the hostess's heart.

Just come visit, when invited of course, stay for a few days, and don't rearrange the furniture and tell the hostess everything she is doing "wrong" in the kitchen.  And then leave while we're still sad to see you go, not when we're cheering the minute you're out the door.

[Hilltop]

4 nights sounds great.  Obviously your mother doesn't think there should be any limits for her, I guess that's the way she thinks and sees it.  Just keep reminding yourself that if she is hurt that is her choosing.  You haven't done anything here other than put a boundary in place which is completely normal.  If she is hurt by that boundary, that's on her.  You weren't rude in how you expressed it, its not insulting, it just isn't what she wanted.  That's ok, she can be disappointed.  Also this boundary is for everyone, I would remind her of that if she brings it up again.  Something like "We like 4 day visits for everyone, it's what works for us".  That way she can't complain she is targeted in some way as it's for everyone and she can't use the family line as it works for you/us. 

I would sharpen those MC skills, have some wine ready, get ready to deep breathe your way through the visit but hopefully it goes ok and smoothly.  Maybe have lots of activities to keep her busy and amused.  Be ready to navigate any unkind comments but hopefully she will be fine for 4 days.  Have an exit plan ready, my take is that she will push her leave date back and try to argue on when she is due to leave. Plan ahead how you want to tackle that.  It sounds like you handling things fine.  Let us know how the visit goes.   

[Hilltop]

There’s probably a backstory to that.

Yes, I've had a few guests that just criticize everything.  uHMIL used to re-arrange furniture, move lamps from one table to the next, buy me towels (as a gift, supposedly) that changed the entire color scheme of the guest bath to something she liked better.  And Dramatic Auntie always has "helpful suggestions" to "enhance" my cooking.  No matter what I make, she knows of a better way to make it or better ingredients to use.  And - no lie - the one time I suggested using a spoon, rather than her hands, to mix the potato salad, she actually started crying and stormed out of the kitchen.  As you note, and I fully agree with emphasis:

Miss Manners needs her smelling salts. One is to wait for an invitation, and then not complain about what is offered out of the goodness of the hostess’s heart.

Sneezy my MIL use to do exactly the same type of thing.  Thank goodness she eventually calmed down.

[Cat of the Canals]

If you dont have something already set for Day 4, find it. Now. You could have limited tickets or have committed to hosts etc. You're not kicking her out but you already made plans etc.

Wanted to add that this is a really good idea, especially if she's already pushing back at the 4 night limit. My husband told MIL 4 days when she came a few months ago. She booked 5 nights and 6 days, telling us that "the extra days would be for travel and settling into their hotel." The implication was that we would still only see her for four days. Well, guess who called the day she arrived and invited herself to our home, thus turning it into a five day visit?

So yeah, just a warning that if they feel they can push you into extra time, they will do it.

[Jolie40]

once we became parents, we no longer had a guest room
so guests stay  @ hotel which works much better & limits time visiting
they stay at hotel for free breakfast
also, they leave earlier in eve. to rest at hotel

why not suggest they get room at nearest hotel?

[lindentree]

Thank you all, for your thoughtful replies. It feels so good to have support and validation from people who get it. You all gave me the idea to go ahead and schedule day 5 for my kids to be in some childcare so I can work on my business (I'm a SAHM but also small business owner) and I'll even schedule some phone calls to make myself 100% unavailable.

To clarify, we did invite them up (we are LC but historically her visits up here are good because she doesn't have to share us with my father and his wife or my in-laws; all three sets of grandparents live within a 20 minute radius of each other in another state). I'm already prepared for complaints, nit-picking, gloating, gaslighting and will be on look-out for them not get too much time with my kids alone as she is prone to emotionally mocking them when they're disregulated or emotional. In other words, I'm channeling my MC.

But you all are right, being invited is a privilege and one that can be revoked at any time.

My dH sees how well I handled this latest interaction - I didn't become disregulated myself, didn't feel the urge to call him at work and tell him all about it and rant/vent to him. I was able to go about my day and let her issues remain her issues.

It's so hard when your PD family members is high-functioning. She can act like the caring mother and grandmothers but there's always a caveat or string attached. That is why we are MC, LC, and there is a limit to the visit.

[jennfr]

If you dont have something already set for Day 4, find it. Now. You could have limited tickets or have committed to hosts etc. You're not kicking her out but you already made plans etc.

Wanted to add that this is a really good idea, especially if she's already pushing back at the 4 night limit. My husband told MIL 4 days when she came a few months ago. She booked 5 nights and 6 days, telling us that "the extra days would be for travel and settling into their hotel." The implication was that we would still only see her for four days. Well, guess who called the day she arrived and invited herself to our home, thus turning it into a five day visit?

So yeah, just a warning that if they feel they can push you into extra time, they will do it.

Also want to second - third - or fourth this advice.

In the distant past, when my mom would visit, I would simply request double the days-off from what she scheduled for her visit, hoping I would get a "decompress" day, but she would usually outstay my time-off.  (Well I say "simply;" this would be after her 50 calls in the 20 days leading up to learn my schedule, demand I re-schedule, cancel, un-cancel, re-reschedule, etc etc.)     

For Mom's second visit after I began setting (& pretty much keeping) firm boundaries, she arrived with her car in need of a serious repair.  Serious enough that we clearly could not insist that she leave without getting it fixed. 

---Well, a car repair could happen to anyone, how could we be heartless about that?  (As she repeatedly told me all about how she had discussed and discussed, discussed, discussed it to death with her mechanic until her finally told her that yes she could "maybe possibly" make the trip without definitely having an accident....      And as an aside, we sent her to a reputable dealership but Not our main mechanic; that dealership would not answer nor return any calls from our home number after having dealt with my mom.)---

SO for her following visit after that (and any ensuing, though there have only been a few since then), I made sure ahead of time and found lodging that would meet her complex requirements.  Several choices of lodging in fact.   As I recall I even made reservation at one I knew she would really like best.  (Which reservation she of course cancelled; not a surprise.)  Lied and said I must return to work the next day (in fact my de-compress day).  And even when she delayed leaving so she would be driving at a time she did not want to travel, did not allow her the option to remain at my home without me, nor to stay over. 

All this to add my further suggestion -- make some lodging arrangments for her.  Secretly! Hopefully ones you can cancel without much cost to yourself.   

Thank you all, for your thoughtful replies. It feels so good to have support and validation from people who get it. You all gave me the idea to go ahead and schedule day 5 for my kids to be in some childcare so I can work on my business (I'm a SAHM but also small business owner) and I'll even schedule some phone calls to make myself 100% unavailable.

.... I'm already prepared for complaints, nit-picking, gloating, gaslighting and will be on look-out for them not get too much time with my kids alone as she is prone to emotionally mocking them when they're disregulated or emotional. In other words, I'm channeling my MC. 

I'm hoping your plan works for you.  I know for myself that scheduling to work on anything from home will have just been an opportunity for my Mom to have some   unassailably urgent need requiring her to remain.  I'd strongly suggest you schedule SOMETHING outside the house.  Maybe a self-care day at a spa?  (Could be a nice gift to suggest from hubby.)  Or, a Meeting.  Or, even just "need" to do your work-from-home on your laptop at a distant coffee shop instead.  Anything that Requires you to Leave the house so there can be No Option for her to remain.     

(Also, as this is your first time enforcing a New Boundary, keep in mind the "complaints, nit-picking, gloating, gaslighting" that you are prepared for, are likely to increase even beyond your expectations.)

[FlowerPot]

this is all so difficult and I can sympathise (though no longer have the problem) -  hope all sorts out

I had mother who complained bitterly when I set a time for xmas visits, arrived with a ton  of food as she didn't seem to think I was capable of shopping and cooking etc and then expressed surprise that the fridge and larder were too full for the stuff she brought and all meals were planned and then would find endless other things to witter about over the days.
In later years she stopped bring the food but still moaned about the length of stay and multiple other things  - I used to work an evening shift quite often, arriving home at 11.15pm - lovely to have the house to myself at that time, but no there she was "thought I ought to keep you company when you got home" - no I just want a large slug of port or sloe gin or whatever and some P&Q !

[mary_poppins]

Yeah for them boundaries are hurtful! boundaries say 'i don't love you' or 'i am abandoning you'. These people are wired differently than us so they can't understand, nor respect our autonomy.
I was LC/VLC for 6 months I think-it was so stressful to me, more stressful than NC. NM always wanted the communication to be done HER way. I needed to answer the phone NOW (not when I have time), I needed to give her a decision NOW, I needed to give her attention twice a day, etc.
It is her way or no way at all.

Sometimes it helps to write it down that, no matter how good you are at boundaries, PDs will always try to break them. Or maybe write down what boundaries mean to PDs and see boundaries from their perspective (aka punishment, abandonment, lack of love etc).

The breaking of boundaries thing is why I am against LC or VLC. Any time I would call/chat with NM (say twice a month), she'd make sure she pushed those buttons. Pushing the buttons is also a boundary breaking move. Trying to make you upset is like trying to get past your calm, loving, healthy demeanour and get the upset side of you. It's a violation of your emotions.

[p123]

I'm LC with NPDm and have lived several hours away for the last decade. Just moved into a nicer home and we're looking forward to family visiting, although her visit is always stressful - many moments of normalcy and dreading when the stuff will hit the fan - emotional dysregulation in front our young kids which we won't tolerate. My dH and I decided that four nights from ANY family is our max. Nothing good happens after a 5th night. Everyone (at least us!) just wants to get back to normal. So when my NPDm said they'd like to come around NYE, I was brave and decided to say that four nights is what works for our family. And that is when the upbeat conversation I was delaying turned.

"That is hurtful".
"For your family? We are you family!"
"How can you put a limit on us"
etc.

I went into this phone call prepared for MC and while my heart races, I just acknowledge that that is normal for anyone with C-PTSD. I stayed firm, let her rant/fume a bit, then just brought it back to the fact that we could have a lot of fun that time of year.

Of course she disociated, saying we had told them they couldn't come up for Christmas (not true, she "gets" to be with my sis and her son this year at Xmas so they were going to stay home for that). I chose not to JADE. No matter what I said, she was going to be "hurt".

Honestly she kind of acted like a normal adult after a while, ending with a positive tone and upbeat. So maybe MC will be good for all of us.

This phone call happened by a group text to my sis and I, "Lindentree, we need to talk to discuss Christmas." And when I didn't respond, "Lindentree, did you see my question"...and when I punted to chatting another day, "Lindentree, I thought you were going to call me today but now I'm too tired so let's try tomorrow." I don't like this maniupulation. If a friend treated me like this, I wouldn't talk to them ever again. I have chosen to be LC so I accept this headache.

Looking for validation 

4 night is generous. We have a 2 night rule..... After that time MIL and wife argue with each other.....

Stick with it - I'd end up killling family after 4 nights with them!