Still mulling about uNMIL and her boundary breaking behaviours

[Breakthrough]

I was just thinking about how MIL kept pushing a summer visit on me instead of her son who is a SAHD and gets the entire summer to be free.  Ugh.  I told her she needed to speak to her son, and she always finds a way to guilt me somehow, like oh well he won't go by himself.  I told her I only get 2 weeks off in the summer and we already have plans for a family trip with just us.  I then walked away because she will never let it go.  I always think of the best comebacks way later.  I should have said, oh really?  Well, I have taken the kids by myself to visit family and so has he, so if he doesn't want to go by himself may be he has another reason?  You should ask him.  And then walked away.  Ugh that woman.  Honestly, he could go himself, he just doesn't want to, his choice.  I would go myself if any of my siblings still lived in the same country (and we didn't have to isolate our kids for 14 days on return).  I miss seeing my own family, though I have some issues there too and am enjoying VLC with my uBsis.  I only get emails from her on occasion now.  I like no longer dealing with her unexpected outburst at me.  Still, I am missing my nephews growing up. 

I am glad to have limited contact with MIL though, it's much easier to not have to deal with her, but I would like to see my nephews on that side and SIL and BIL. 

I am working on trying to create that boundary in my mind too, like I don't need to feel guilty, I am not the one refusing to go, my husband is, he can own that guilt if he wants, but he refuses to feel guilty about anything.

I think I am also feeling vulnerable because my therapist just left the program I am in and she was the best fit in forever,

[Starboard Song]

I find that guilt arises from the conversation, not the decision. And it comes when we shift modes from "inform" to "persuade." And it comes when we feel like we've acted with a hard heart.

When you are asked to visit, and it is not right for you, I encourage this response:

• Pause, and put on the kindest voice you have. Try to smile, because people can hear that smile.
• Like you are merely turning down an offer of an extra dessert, gently say that "unfortunately, a visit doesn't work for us this time."
• As necessary repeat "I understand, but as I say it just won't work for us this time around."
• Never ever explain or defend that judgment.
• Don't repeat yourself more than three times. After that it's: "I'm sorry. I've told you it doesn't suit." And change the subject.
• On another word, you cut her off -- still with a smile in your voice: "I really won't discuss this any further. I can see it is what you want to talk about, so I'm going to let you go, and we can talk again soon when you're ready to discuss something else."
• And you gently end the call on the spot. After ending the call, smile to yourself, and decide to feel at ease: a good thing just happened.

I wrote that out not to be prescriptive: you of course will need to find your own words, and follow your own heart. But I find it easiest just to role-play what worked for me. Now, we were in a larger crisis that didn't end well, so we are pushing 7 years NC and I guess I was sort of a failure at this.

But I did learn to inform, rather than persuade. And I did get a few chances to practice speaking with a smile, and ending conversations calmly and gently when I was not respected. One time it was (paraphrasing), "I understand this is important to you. My purpose in calling was to remind you that _______, and I've accomplished that, so I am going to let you go now." And I hung up gently, moments after a great insult. I didn't save my relationship in the long run, but I did find that this made my heart happier and healthier.

I believe you and I understand how hard these things are.

Be good. Be strong.

[Cat of the Canals]

I really like the idea of focusing on informing vs. persuading. Especially since many PDs make these requests in such a way that make you feel like you owe them some kind of explanation or excuse, when the reality is that NO is always a complete sentence.

I am working on trying to create that boundary in my mind too, like I don't need to feel guilty, I am not the one refusing to go, my husband is, he can own that guilt if he wants, but he refuses to feel guilty about anything.

One thing to consider: why should ANYONE feel guilty for not going? Whether it simply doesn't work with your schedule or you JUST DON'T WANT TO, I don't think that's a reason to feel guilty. You or your husband. I mean, why would he want to go spend his precious vacation time with someone like this? I wouldn't.

I point this out only because it took me a loooooong time to realize I didn't have to feel guilty for not wanting to spend time with my PDmom or my PDmil. They are not entitled to my time. No one is.

[Breakthrough]

Thank you both for the replies!

I agree with informing.  I think my problem is that I start to justify.  In this case it's really not my decision, it's my husband's.  I don't have the time off to go, he refuses to work and help our family financially but he is responsible for childcare which is a financial help.  It also allows him a lot of freedom I don't have and I feel a bit resentful at times because I would prefer it to be the other way around (and he promised me he would make this happen before we got married, and never got his act together, but that's a different story).  The problem with my husband is he says and thinks he's close to his mother.  She calls him never the other way around. She demands visits never the other way around. My husband somehow thinks and likes to blame not seeing her on me (prepandemic). It's ridiculous but that's why I mention he should feel guilty, because in the past he has blamed me for setting boundaries with his mother because otherwise our marriage would have completely fallen apart. We have our own issues, adding her bulldozer approach to family and her entitlement about "her" grandkids and it was a divorce waiting to happen.  I had to put my foot down and tell him to choose, because at one point she endangered my toddler at the time. I still don't trust her with my kids alone. They love her but also don't see her often.  It's pandemic related but also because of boundaries.

I guess that's why I said he should feel guilty, because he made me feel that way for years. Frankly it's laziness on my husband's part, he doesn't want the work associated with going to visit his family.  You are right, no one needs to feel guilty, but I still have my own  issues and resentments at my husband to work out. They are ongoing, which is why it's not a forgive and forget type of situation.  I wish it was, but he's not the most functional person and that puts a lot on my shoulders in terms if our kids and hime while i am also the sole breadwinner.   

[Cat of the Canals]

That makes sense, Breakthrough. And I can definitely understand how frustrating it would be to have him pushing the burden of visiting/not visiting on you when he is free to make that choice for himself and simply doesn't. It sounds like he's very much in denial about how "close" they are. And I suspect part of him must know the truth, which is probably why he avoids visiting.

[bloomie]

Breakthrough - I get the frustration of being held responsible for the amount of time spent with your mil. I also get the underlying issue being a DH that is projecting his own lackluster interest in connecting with his mom on you and past passivity in terms of holding healthy limits and boundaries in unity with you with his mom.

You are wise to recognize how damaging all of this has the potential to be to your marriage and family of choice.

I am just seeing a snap shot of the situation, but it seems like the balance of responsibility, in general, is out of whack in your marriage and it is the root cause of the FOG surrounding your mil's insistent requests.

he's not the most functional person and that puts a lot on my shoulders in terms if our kids and hime while i am also the sole breadwinner.   

Thing is... we can learn to inform versus persuade (such a key distinction thank you for that Starboard Song) and find gracious and firm ways to handle a mil who comes at us like an entitled freight train, but when we perceive we are alone in it and our partner in life is not in fully engaged with us, and has proven themselves willing to let us be the first line of defense, the sentinel and most at risk as we stand guard over our family's well being it is fertile ground for resentments and anger to build within our marriages.

I think your response to your mil is understandable in that context. It is possible this all is telling you it is important to look at how much you, even tacitly, agree to take on in your relationship and family life and to figure out if it is working for you.  It is a lot to work through, but it seems like you may have been packing a whole lot in your suitcase that may not be yours to lug around over the years and it is so full it is ready to bust open.  As responsible adults we are each to take up our own load and not overburden another person taking advantage of their energy, good character, and love. Only you can discern if this is part of what is happening in your relationship.

It is so easy to tell ourselves that if we don't do all of the things they won't get done or mil will escalate because her son is not answering her or going to see her.... all of that may be fairly accurate assessments and yet, I can say from very personal experience it is a really tough way to live and at some point it is going to be too much to hold up under (at least it was for me).

[Breakthrough]

That makes sense, Breakthrough. And I can definitely understand how frustrating it would be to have him pushing the burden of visiting/not visiting on you when he is free to make that choice for himself and simply doesn't. It sounds like he's very much in denial about how "close" they are. And I suspect part of him must know the truth, which is probably why he avoids visiting.

Thank you Cat,

I mean he knows, but can't take it when I talk about any issues openly.  He has improved since he realizes that I do the same for my family issues.  It's not like I am picking on his mom, just talking about the reasons she is difficult in a matter of fact way. Their family's way of dealing with stuff is a big sweep under the rug. "You know that's just how she is".  Ok, but how she is and how it effects me is not ok with me at all.  They would ignore her while she talks to them, and not answer questions.  He doesn't have the best communication skills as a result.  It mean I don't think his dad really enjoys spending time with her either.  He's a workaholic and also volunteers so much I think partly to avoid her.  I think he'll find lots of volunteer things to do in retirement to avoid her as much as possible.  I know that sounds cynical, but I honestly think it's a lot of why their marriage has survived so long.  I don't think he really enjoys talking to her, she and their family in general, mostly talk about other ppl, which I don't enjoy.  I don't care to know other ppl's business unless they want to share it with me themselves.  So her conversations are mostly prying to find out our business or talking about ppl I don't know. She doesn't know the meaning of comfortable silence.  I think this bothered me less before she made so many boundary violations.  It feels like her talking violates my peace now.  I just have no interest in a relationship with her at all.  She is not allowed to call to me or txt me and even violated that by using my FIL's txts.  Once I realized I stopped responding.  Again an example of how sneaky she is.  Ugh.  I honestly just need to do a better job of washing my hands of everything to do with her, it's partly me wanting to keep the peace and ppl pls, a product of generational trauma.  It's my boundary work with my husband too.

[Breakthrough]

Breakthrough - I get the frustration of being held responsible for the amount of time spent with your mil. I also get the underlying issue being a DH that is projecting his own lackluster interest in connecting with his mom on you and past passivity in terms of holding healthy limits and boundaries in unity with you with his mom.

You are wise to recognize how damaging all of this has the potential to be to your marriage and family of choice.

I am just seeing a snap shot of the situation, but it seems like the balance of responsibility, in general, is out of whack in your marriage and it is the root cause of the FOG surrounding your mil's insistent requests.

he's not the most functional person and that puts a lot on my shoulders in terms if our kids and hime while i am also the sole breadwinner.   

Thing is... we can learn to inform versus persuade (such a key distinction thank you for that Starboard Song) and find gracious and firm ways to handle a mil who comes at us like an entitled freight train, but when we perceive we are alone in it and our partner in life is not in fully engaged with us, and has proven themselves willing to let us be the first line of defense, the sentinel and most at risk as we stand guard over our family's well being it is fertile ground for resentments and anger to build within our marriages.

I think your response to your mil is understandable in that context. It is possible this all is telling you it is important to look at how much you, even tacitly, agree to take on in your relationship and family life and to figure out if it is working for you.  It is a lot to work through, but it seems like you may have been packing a whole lot in your suitcase that may not be yours to lug around over the years and it is so full it is ready to bust open.  As responsible adults we are each to take up our own load and not overburden another person taking advantage of their energy, good character, and love. Only you can discern if this is part of what is happening in your relationship.

It is so easy to tell ourselves that if we don't do all of the things they won't get done or mil will escalate because her son is not answering her or going to see her.... all of that may be fairly accurate assessments and yet, I can say from very personal experience it is a really tough way to live and at some point it is going to be too much to hold under (at least it was for me).

I think the key you mentioned was responsible adults, he isn't really one, and that's our big issue. He has improved a lot though which is good. He's better about owning when his mom is annoying. I just have to let go of any guilt associated with her wants. That's in his job pile, if she tries putting that on me again, I think I will take a page out of their family playbook, and ignore her and pretend I didn't hear.  I have mild hearing loss and if I get to the point where I need a hearing aid, I have joked I am going to turn them off when I am around her  .  I mean honestly I think that's another reason my FIL can tolerate her, he takes his hearing aid out at home.  I guess her manipulativeness just annoys me.  She only seems to respond and get the message when we see them less (or may be it's just easier for me to handle her less frequently).  She just sucks the energy right out of me and I don't want to waste it on her. I would rather reserve it for my kids and husband.  It's why I have really limited contact with my own FOO right now too, my one sister is a PD and she stresses me out with her unpredictability and rage outbursts at me for no reason at times.  I am tired of being a punching bag, it's ok to protect my own mental health, I just need to work on letting go of the responsibilities of maintaining any relationship with MIL.  That's my husband's job since they're close     

Thank you for the insights Bloomie, they are always helpful for me to process all this. I wish I could just erase it from my mind, but the highly sensitive empath in me has trouble with that.

[Breakthrough]

I spoke with my husband about it today and he said why didn't I tell him at the time, because he would talk to her.  He admits he's not going because he doesn't want to go, they can come here if they want to visit.  I told him I like txting with my SIL bc she's respectful of boundaries but I honestly don't want to deal with his mom at all because she's like this, it's why she's not allowed to txt me or call me.  I pointed out that the one time she has her chance she tries even then and won't let up and keeps talking to try and guilt me and manipulate me.  At least this time he acknowledges she's damaging.  I also compared our parents because mine aren't easy either but they aren't PDs, they can change and have done so as they have grown.  I can talk to them and they actually listen.  My dad has grown enough to apologize to his grandkids sincerely when called for and that is a lot of growth for him.  His mom will never see she's in the wrong about anything, so it will never change. Her family lives a long time (both parents into their 90s), so I will likely have to learn to deal with her for many more years.  I know it's sad not to feel joyous that she'll be long lived, I dread that a bit, but I should be happy for my husband.  I just dread how she'll be around to try and interfere with my kids lives as adults, when I won't have the ability to shield them anymore.  I dread them even getting phones (which won't be until high school, may be late middle school), since she will then want those numbers.  I just have dread of any contact with her, and dislike she's in my life at all.  Hopefully I can tolerate that better with more boundary work.  I mean she can't keep talking if I just pretend I can't hear her.  And I have no obligation to keep responding to her if she continues to break boundaries.