Dad and approach to money - he thinks he can tell me what to do!

[p123]

Honestly, there is surely not a tighter person on this earth than my Dad.
He'd rather have money in the bank and not spend a penny and do without things.
His argument is "we were poor when I was young so I don't want to waste money now".

Totally disagree with him so I try not to have any conversations about money. Its his money, do what you want, I don't want it, but don't moan when something could be sorted by spending money. Crack on otherwise but I don't care.

BUT he keeps dragging me back in. Wants to know how much I earn - not telling you. Want to know how much I'm saving - not telling you. Wants to know how much I spent on the kids birthday - not telling you.

When I'm not working I don't get paid - its sort of a consultant role. Fine by me the rate when I work more than makes up for it. BUT my attitude is my kids are not going to grow up thinking "wow Dad worked hard and earned a lot of money" so I take holidays like normal. Yeh it costs me a LOT in lost income but hey ho.

So I don't discuss holidays with Dad. He forced the issue last night and I said yes I'm off to Florida for 3 weeks in August. Honestly though he was going to blow his lid! What on earth has it got to do with you??? Had this before - how hes "amazed" I can be so irresponsible. Seriously.

I tried to grey rock him but he kept on and on. In the end, I lost it told him it was none of his business AT ALL. He's telling me I need to "call my boss" and check its ok with him because if he was my boss he wouldn't be happy I was taking 3 weeks off.

Now everyone has got their own role and what they do and not belittling anyone here - Dad worked in a factory for 40 years. I never mention it but he kept on. I'm an IT consultant, its a different relationship, I don't clock in, no-one checks what I do, I don't really have a boss I have a client. Of course, if Im not going to be around for holidays  make sure it works for my client but its all different.

I've tried to politely explain in the past but this time I had enough and pointed out its a bit different and how could he who worked in a factory comment on something he knows nothing about? Of course, now I'm the bad one and "too big for my boots". Can't win.

Dad is the only person who manages to un-grey rock someone I'm sure....

(Footnote: You can guess how many holidays I had as a kid growing up I guess!)

[justducky]

He'll never change, p123.

I get it. You want your old dad back, the one who could be reasonable and somewhat pleasant to be around.

It ain't happenin'.

You don't have to listen to his nonsense. When he starts ranting and asking intrusive questions, you can get up and leave.

You decide how much contact you want with him. He's doing to try to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. It's up to you to take care of yourself with appropriate boundaries.

Part of me pities your father. You sound like a caring, empathetic son. If he would behave himself at least some of the time he could enjoy time with you and your family. Instead he chooses to act like a nosy, spoiled brat.

I wish it were different for you, p123. 

[square]

This one isn't about him disapproving of your lost income. Remember, he doesn't actually care about your lost income or lost standing with your clients when he wants you to takethe day off to taxi and entertain him at A&E

He is upset you'll be thousands and thousands of miles away for three weeks and unable to be at his beck and call.

He knows he will look bad and it won't work besides if he tells you what he's really thinking, so he pretends to suddenly care about your career and your financial situation.

He is hoping if he bangs on hard enough, even if you don't cancel this trip, you will be talked out of future ones. And frankly, probably not "talked out of" so much as just feel so awful and anxious you decide it's not even worth it to do again.

Remember how he's poisoned some of your past trips with moaning and emergencies and demands for frequent calls that delayed or cut into your leisure activities.

You managed Spain well. You are going to do great in Florida.

[NarcKiddo]

The others have given good advice.

I've been goaded into comments that don't align with my grey rock approach. It happens. They know which buttons to press. The trick is to give them as little info as is humanly possible and in my case, I will simply lie if necessary.

In your position I would probably invent some overseas contacts (very easy if you're in IT) so you just start having "business trips".

[p123]

He'll never change, p123.

I get it. You want your old dad back, the one who could be reasonable and somewhat pleasant to be around.

It ain't happenin'.

You don't have to listen to his nonsense. When he starts ranting and asking intrusive questions, you can get up and leave.

You decide how much contact you want with him. He's doing to try to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. It's up to you to take care of yourself with appropriate boundaries.

Part of me pities your father. You sound like a caring, empathetic son. If he would behave himself at least some of the time he could enjoy time with you and your family. Instead he chooses to act like a nosy, spoiled brat.

I wish it were different for you, p123. 

Yeh I know that..... Its just grey rock just aint working with him on this....

Like I said, next step is not to visit at all.

[p123]

This one isn't about him disapproving of your lost income. Remember, he doesn't actually care about your lost income or lost standing with your clients when he wants you to takethe day off to taxi and entertain him at A&E

He is upset you'll be thousands and thousands of miles away for three weeks and unable to be at his beck and call.

He knows he will look bad and it won't work besides if he tells you what he's really thinking, so he pretends to suddenly care about your career and your financial situation.

He is hoping if he bangs on hard enough, even if you don't cancel this trip, you will be talked out of future ones. And frankly, probably not "talked out of" so much as just feel so awful and anxious you decide it's not even worth it to do again.

Remember how he's poisoned some of your past trips with moaning and emergencies and demands for frequent calls that delayed or cut into your leisure activities.

You managed Spain well. You are going to do great in Florida.

Of course thats the main reason. But with Dad he always like to be "right". In his head he knows it all and he knows how things work because hes 87 and been around. The reality of the situation is hes never left his small town and really is clueless.

[p123]

The others have given good advice.

I've been goaded into comments that don't align with my grey rock approach. It happens. They know which buttons to press. The trick is to give them as little info as is humanly possible and in my case, I will simply lie if necessary.

In your position I would probably invent some overseas contacts (very easy if you're in IT) so you just start having "business trips".

Yeh I do try to give him as little info as I can to be honest. Hes 2 jobs behinfd on where my wife works lol - its easier to say she works at x.

Also her new job is out on the road visiting patients and she pretty much drives past Dads house every day. You know what he'll be thinking - its never happening.

[Cat of the Canals]

Yeh I know that..... Its just grey rock just aint working with him on this....

When grey rock doesn't work for me, I know it's time for MC.

HIM: I can't believe you'd be so irresponsible.
YOU: This is none of your business. Let's discuss something else.
HIM: I just really can't believe you'd do this. You need to call your boss and check with him.
YOU: I'm not discussing this with you. We can either talk about something else, or I'm hanging up/leaving.
HIM: It's just astonishing to me that you think it's fine to take a vacation like that.
YOU: Goodbye.

[Starboard Song]

Yeh I know that..... Its just grey rock just aint working with him on this....

Like I said, next step is not to visit at all.

I think this isn't a Gray Rock situation. It is a boundaries situation. There are conversations you will not have. There are questions you will not answer and some comments you won't even listen to. You'll never be angry. You'll be at ease and relaxed. You will calmly do you: changing the topic or ending the call or leaving the room as necessary to honor your own boundaries.

And he needn't respect your boundaries: you will do themly calmly and kindly for yourself.

You are doing so much right. He is still inside your head, rent free. It is past time to evict him from there, so his comments don't grate at you. When that happens you can indeed win.

[p123]

Yeh I know that..... Its just grey rock just aint working with him on this....

When grey rock doesn't work for me, I know it's time for MC.

HIM: I can't believe you'd be so irresponsible.
YOU: This is none of your business. Let's discuss something else.
HIM: I just really can't believe you'd do this. You need to call your boss and check with him.
YOU: I'm not discussing this with you. We can either talk about something else, or I'm hanging up/leaving.
HIM: It's just astonishing to me that you think it's fine to take a vacation like that.
YOU: Goodbye.

That's pretty much how it went but in person. He'll back down then but a few weeks later he'll mention it again.....

Trouble is I know with Dad I live in a different world. I guess in a factory you asked for a day off and they said yes or no.
Especially with me being self-employed as it is for a lot of people, its a case of Im not available those days and its sort of a case of sort it out amongst yourselves.
Dad just doesn't get how your "Boss" isnt the all powerful person who says how you do things. Even though I've tried to explain a 1000 times.

But then Dads motto through life has always been "to be on the safe side". He'd never rock the boat or decide to get another job. Hes the grey man who sits there and does exactly whats expected of him. His world does not compute how someone can leave a job, set up a business etc. Neither can he see how you'd ever leave a job/contract because it wasnt working out or even stick up for youself in a work environment.

You could say we're opposites. I just hope I turn out to be opposite to the way I treat my kids when I'm old.

[NarcKiddo]

Starboard Song has pointed out that he is in your head, rent free. Only you can evict him.

From your latest post it looks like you are struggling with that. I am not surprised, as I have similar struggles with my mother. The thing is probably not so much that he doesn't get it, or can't get it, it's that he does not want to get it or is not interested in getting it. It doesn't suit his narrative. You could explain another 1,000 times and the result would be the same. In my experience, every explanation (which is ignored) paves the way to the subject being brought up yet again at some point. Every refusal to engage, on the other hand, does reduce future instances. It may not feel like it at the time but when you look back, you can see. Maybe you could try making a note of every single time he brings up a particular subject and what your reaction was. It could be very quickly stuck into a spreadsheet. Over time it might help to see which approaches are actually working, and which aren't.

I find this sort of thing is actually a bit like dog training. They will repeat behaviours that bring rewards and gradually desist from those that don't. The problem you have to overcome is that if a behaviour has brought a reward (even if it is you losing your rag, which is a reward because it is giving attention) then the person/dog knows a reward is available. They will work harder and harder to get that reward and it takes that much longer for them to conclude things have changed and a reward is no longer forthcoming for that behaviour.

[1footouttadefog]

Sounds like he is mad you are using vacation time that could e made available to him.

So sad. 

[Happypants]

Starboard Song has pointed out that he is in your head, rent free. Only you can evict him.

From your latest post it looks like you are struggling with that. I am not surprised, as I have similar struggles with my mother. The thing is probably not so much that he doesn't get it, or can't get it, it's that he does not want to get it or is not interested in getting it. It doesn't suit his narrative. You could explain another 1,000 times and the result would be the same. In my experience, every explanation (which is ignored) paves the way to the subject being brought up yet again at some point. Every refusal to engage, on the other hand, does reduce future instances. It may not feel like it at the time but when you look back, you can see. Maybe you could try making a note of every single time he brings up a particular subject and what your reaction was. It could be very quickly stuck into a spreadsheet. Over time it might help to see which approaches are actually working, and which aren't.

I find this sort of thing is actually a bit like dog training. They will repeat behaviours that bring rewards and gradually desist from those that don't. The problem you have to overcome is that if a behaviour has brought a reward (even if it is you losing your rag, which is a reward because it is giving attention) then the person/dog knows a reward is available. They will work harder and harder to get that reward and it takes that much longer for them to conclude things have changed and a reward is no longer forthcoming for that behaviour.

NarcKiddo has nailed it IMO. (I see lots of similarities to dog training when dealing with narcs - not being disrespectful, dogs can be complex creatures to live with).

It's all about what they find rewarding. Here's another dog training comparison - there's no such thing as bad attention: shouting at a barking dog doesn't stop the habit of barking, it turns it into a game, and one they can rely on initiating in the future; ignoring a dog begging for food then eventually giving in just galvanises his efforts to harass you for longer the next time. Giving no feedback and ignoring the dog when he does behaviours you don't like (being really consistent!!!) will eventually result in behaviour extinction.  There might be a little extinction burst of the behaviour again, but consistently not reacting will see it off.

P123 I think I was at this stage a couple of years ago. Because I care about my parents and have an easily-pushed guilt button, they were still dictating my emotions even when I thought I was showing otherwise on the surface by GR/MC.  Can't speak for your dad, but my parents still knew when they had gotten to me and they carried on. Perhaps it's worth targeting your growing resolve at your own emotional autonomy now that you're nailing your responses to your dad   

[p123]

Oh yeh tries every trick in the book. He'll be "ILL" the week before guaranteed......

As others have said is his head he wouldn't take an unpaid holiday (because thats how he thinks so everyone has to think like that) and secondly, whos going to look after a seriously ill elderly parent when I swan off on holidays?

[lkdrymom]

In his mind, you are wasting valuable time on a vacation that could be spent catering to him.  Where are your priorities man!?

[p123]

In his mind, you are wasting valuable time on a vacation that could be spent catering to him.  Where are your priorities man!?

Yep. And he tells me he doesnt need help at home yet when I go away "how am I going to cope?"

A lot of it as I've said is "everyone should think like me" which pretty much means, don't spend money, don't take holidays, work as much as you can, earn as much as you can, save as much as you can and build up that bank account.

You can see what my childhood was like! I keep telling Dad theres no prizes for being the richest person in the graveyard.

Im the opposite. Any money I've got gets spent on the kids or on holidays..... I want to take my dying breath having spend my last £50 on a stripper!