NPD Mother/Mother-in-law help!

[KatKp29]

Hello everyone! New to this site and desperately searching for some help. I apologize if this is long but a lot going on right now.
Background: My husband is one of 4 boys. He's the oldest. Their mother seems to check all the boxes of NPD. We all agree on this. She is extremely judgmental, cannot take criticism, cries and uses emotion/guilt to get her way. Very overly-critical.Her husband always needs to make more money, her kids always need a promotion or to get a better job, meanwhile she hasn't had a job in 30 years(as old as my husband is). We've been together for 10 years and I was always very uncomfortable around her. She's so cloyingly nice that I always thought it came across very disingenuous. But I always felt bad for feeling that way. Some years ago, I began to get behind the scenes stories from my husband and his brothers about what she's really like. She has gotten progressively worse. To be fair, she had cancer about 5 years ago and she is now cancer-free thankfully but to be blunt, it just turned her into a worse person. I can't imagine what she went through but she has accused her son's and her husband of "not being there enough for her" "not doing enough for her" this enraged my husband because his father did everything for her, he bend over backwards to care for her when she was very sick. And she always uses her fear of it coming back as an excuse to just be nasty("she's afraid it'll come back so she lashes out because if it does come back your mom is going to die for sure this time"). Also, her husband their father is without a doubt the definition of a flying monkey. He's her enforcer. She treats him like garbage and belittles him constantly and he makes excuse after excuse for her. He admits to us he doesn't see what's wrong with her behavior at all. My husband is the scapegoat child, he's always been rebellious and non-compliant and she hates that. Her second child is the golden child and can do no wrong. The two younger ones follow the same pattern(3rd child scapegoat and youngest child golden child, although not to the extent of the first one).

So here's our dilemma:
When the pandemic started we kept our distance from them since she was technically still immunocompromised. We noticed though that our lives seemed easier/happier not being involved in the drama. However around October the two youngest sons(who still live there) started talking to us saying that she has just gone full-on tyrant mode on them and their dad is just enabling her and being the enforcer for her. These boys are severely depressed being stuck there and they are clearly just miserable and have been through some stuff themselves. We shared this with her 2nd child and his gf and they were equally enraged. We began researching NPD and taking steps to try to mitigate these problems. We've all been keeping them at a distance as much as we can. We had a meeting with their dad about her behavior and telling him we wanted to see changes but he went even harder into being her flying monkey. He started going after the boys even harder after that. So we decided to pull more drastic measure. My husband, his brother, his gf and myself all decided to stop texting/calling them. She freaked out when she lost control and would begin bombarding us with frantic calls/text. She was also upset we were taking his younger bros out and doing fun stuff with them. His dad would leave nasty voicemails telling us we're being "mean" which is her absolute favorite word to use when not getting her way. My husband and his brother decided to have one final meeting with their dad saying that we are all pulling away and don't want her in our lives. He seemed to agree with SOME of our points. We said we weren't apologizing and he said we didn't have to.He said he'd talk with her and just asked us to "please just text your mom back so she doesn't think you hate her" . We complied with this sending her just very generic messages. About a day later he calls my husband demanding that we apologize to her and call her and again accused us of being "mean. We didn't agree to apologize or call her, just simply to send her a text which we did.
We decided this is it. We ignored her calls/texts again(causing her to send more pleading messages) " I love you boys more than anything, I don't know what I did to deserve being treated like this" again painting herself as the victim. Then that very same evening, her 2 youngest sons had a big argument/discussion with their parents and finally told her to her face a few of the problems with her and why no one wants to be around her. They claimed she was shocked by this and that she genuinely wanted things to get better and get worked out. Also, they claim she admitted "some" fault, how much we don't know. Their dad said it was a "positive discussion" . However the red flag was they told the boys to text their brothers and say that "oh we had a very nice talk with mom and dad and their willing to listen/fix things. We immediately thought this was a ploy to get us to come crawling back. We decided to text her and tell her that we are glad that she had a good discussion with the brothers but that we are all burnt out from the stress/anxiety and respectfully asked her not to text/call us for the next few weeks and that we would contact her when ready. She replied with this " Ok. I will do whatever you need. I just need you to know how much I have always loved you and you do not cut me out of your life. That would kill me and I only want to fix the issues. I really need to understand. I will wait for you to get back to me.
We were expecting an angrier response and were a bit surprised. Basically we want to see if this new "change" is sincere or just a desperate attempt to get us back in her grasp. We are monitoring the younger brothers and they are to tell us if they get picked on at all or treated poorly by them. A bunch of family birthdays are coming up and holidays are a big big thing for her. We would be missing these events by continuing with this plan and we think this is basically a trap to get us to come back. Maybe that is paranoid and we WANT to believe her but we are all very suspicious of this sudden change of heart. All these years of miser and she has on conversation with her kids and suddenly she want to fix this even though they've both been in denial for years that anything was even wrong at all??

We would appreciate any and all advice or feedback. We have no idea how to interpret any of this.

Thanks!

[Cat of the Canals]

I could say so much about this, but I'll focus just on the most recent message.

Ok. I will do whatever you need. I just need you to know how much I have always loved you and you do not cut me out of your life. That would kill me and I only want to fix the issues. I really need to understand. I will wait for you to get back to me.

The thing about NPD and BPD is they will -- if they sense they have finally reached the cliff's edge -- back off. Or I should say, pretend to back off. It's one of many ploys they will use to pull you back in. We call that a "Hoover." As in, sucking you back in like a vacuum cleaner.

If you actually parse her words, you see they are not as nice or innocent as they may initially appear.

I just need you to know how much I have always loved you - The subtext here is "I have always loved you, you owe me." This is also classic "lovebombing."
do not cut me out of your life. - This isn't even subtext. She's outright telling you that a "no contact" boundary is unacceptable.
That would kill me - This is textbook PD manipulation. You having boundaries would kill her? Really? No. This is melodramatic BS.
I really need to understand. - Another classic PD ploy. It sounds to me like you, your husband, and his siblings have explained it quite clearly for her, so what's to understand? PDs love to play the, "But what did I do wrong?????" game after being told, repeatedly, for years, EXACTLY what they've been doing wrong.
I will wait for you to get back to me - The subtext here is that you will get back to her. She is AGAIN not acknowledging that you could and have the right to cut her off completely, if you chose to do so.

I would proceed with absolute caution. If she follows the normal PD pattern, she'll be on best behavior for a while, but it won't last forever, or even very long. My pdMIL can only do this for maybe a day at a time. PDmom can stretch it out for maybe a few weeks. Eventually they will believe they've smoothed things over enough (or simply can't stand behaving any longer) and will go right back to their old ways.

[KatKp29]

Thank you for the response!
Yes, we kept rereading that response from her and just knew it didn't sound right but couldn't quite put our finger on it! But yes you nailed it!

Also, I forgot to mention that when she had this discussion with her two younger boys the other day she told them that she wants perfection from everyone because her own mother demanded perfection from her and never let her show her feelings. Again, passing the blame onto someone else...typical NPD. My husband said in his 30 years of life he had never once heard that his grandma did anything like that to her.

We are pretty aware that is very likely a ruse to get us to crack and make us feel guilty. We feel pretty strong in our resolve because we know feel the ball is in our court so to speak. However, we are worried about his younger brothers. We can easily avoid her and we don't live there but they are stuck there right now. They also were the two most staunch supporters of us actually breaking contact with them and encouraged us to do so multiple times.We only really became aware of how bad this had gotten due to their absolute disgust with their mother. But last night they almost seemed to do a 180 and now seem optimistic that things might change. My husband says it's because it's most likely the first real agreeable convo they have ever had with their mom(which is sad really). We're all concerned she will start trying to pit us against each other."Oh see, I was willing to try but they keep ignoring me and I'm the victim again so it's their fault things are back to the status quo" Our only concern is getting them out of that house right now. The four of us can easily cut her off if we must. We are just hoping the "high" from having an actual conversation with her wears off so they can see what she's actually doing.

[Cat of the Canals]

Even if her mother did treat her like that, it's no excuse to perpetuate it. That's an absolute cop-out. Even worse is that she apparently sees the dysfunction and chooses not to stop it. My mother has the decency to pretend her mother was a saint even though I know my grandmother taught her everything she knows. 

I'm so glad his brothers have you and your husband to rely on for some sense of sanity and support in all this. My guess is that, living with her, the high will wear of very quickly. In the meantime, hold to your boundaries and make it clear that you are doing so for your own mental health. It's a lot harder for her to effectively play the victim to others if you frame it as being about your needs vs. not giving in to her demands.

[sunshine702]

With Nacistic  moms
1. They think they are perfect.  And always right. YES Always!  No matter what they are the alpha.  So if somone is unhappy (with horrible treatment - duh)  well then they are just being mean.

Do not look to her for validation. It will never come.  Don't get caught up im their fantasy world but getting even or the last word is dangerous (they hald grudes to destroy people fpr decades.

Just don't give her anything of interst.  Back away slowly (too abrupt and they notice and rage!)  Very low controlled contact and grey rock. Super boring. Nothing vulnerable. 

[treesgrowslowly]

My unvarnished opinion. It is a ruse. It is more manipulation.

Emotionally immature people do not become mature after a few conversations.

The proof? This person  was so insecure that she needed a text from you to prove your loyalty or concern for her and then within a short time frame later, she wants you to believe that she is capable of repairing and building an emotionally safe relationship with you? Don't take the bait. You will regret it.

You will always need boundaries with her. Always. She has lived her life manipulating everyone in her family and her husband is living out his life and an enabler. Those things take a lot a lot a lot of therapy to actually transform. And from being here for years I do not hear of narc family members going into therapy and actually learning how to overcome their narcissism.

What you want - a sane and normal and healthy dynamic with these people is not going to happen. There are dozens of red flags you have seen. Don't gaslight yourself.

Narcissists do not know how to maintain healthy dynamics with others. Yes they can behave themselves - for a time, and WHEN they think that behaving will pay off.

I've lived my life surrounded my narcissistic people. They don't become healthy people with healthy boundaries. They just don't.

Some of what you wrote about her is exactly what my NPD relatives have done. Verbatim. It's all very manipulative and controlling.

Most people who have not been through this within a family system have no idea how these situations feel. Never mind how to deal with them. I am glad you are here since we understand.

Trees

[Call Me Cordelia]

When the feces hit the oscillating device in my relationship with my parents and I went NC with them, my much younger sister was a young adult still living with them. I was very concerned for her, to put it mildly. In the past I had been cast as her "surrogate mother." I don't know if this is the dynamic with your husband and younger brothers, but do be aware of boundaries with them as well. If they are minors, you can possibly make use of public resources to help them. If they are adults, they have to make their own choices to further their own freedom.

This is an extreme cautionary tale, but I tell it because, well, it happened. And quite often the experiences of members on this board seem eerily familiar.

At the time of my NC younger sis was all too happy to blow the whistle louder on the abuse, and try to get me or another family member to rescue her. And really I mean fully adopt her as a dependent. Put her on our health insurance. Give her a room in my house. Pay for her cell phone, clothing, etc. Drive over an hour for each shift to drop her and pick her up at her part time job. And, Lord help me, I thought about it.

What pulled me back from the edge was the instability she would introduce for my own children. She already had severely disordered behavior and you couldn't trust her as far as you could throw her. Of course I blamed her upbringing for this and felt guilt for "abandoning" her to mom and dad aka getting my own life. But I couldn't sacrifice my kids' security and invest as much time in an adult child as she would surely demand from me.

So I told her no, she cannot move in.

A couple of weeks later it was Christmas and she sang a duet with mom at their church.

I didn't cut her off, but she stopped bothering to even pretend to care about anything I had to say to her. I was dropped like a hot lead potato. She half-heartedly reached out fishing for cash and prizes around her life milestones once or twice, claiming to miss me, but that's it.

I think Cat's analysis is pretty good. At any event, I advise you and DH to take your time with this. Act, don't react. "When you are ready," means exactly that. Rushing you or feeling pressured is a hot tip that your FoC's best interests are not being served.

[KatKp29]

Thank you to all who responded! We appreciate the feedback and it helps to know we aren't alone.

It's been almost a week and we've heard nothing from her. Must really be trying to be on her "best behavior" . My husband's brother did say about a day or two after we sent the text that she was trying to downplay all the problems she supposedly "acknowledged" and trying to be emotionally manipulative about it again so just as all of us here have said...nothing has changed! Big surprise!
I told my husband that I believe she'll give us "a few weeks" because that is what the text said but my prediction is she'll start crying/acting pathetic again saying "I gave them what they want why won't they talk to me still?" Basically saying "I gave you what you want now you OWE me". We have all noticed how nice and peaceful everything is without the two of them in the picture, and I told my husband I'd be willing to go a lot longer than a few weeks. I am terrified of her being in the picture long-term. We most likely will have kids in another 2-3 years and I couldn't even imagine how terrible she would be about that. I have heard horror stories about NPD moms and their grandchildren. We are considering moving to another state as well(not solely because of her but that is a big reason). I truly believe my husband would be ok with not speaking to them again or having very little contact with them, the concern is with his brothers. I think he wants everyone to have a united front against her and so far they all have been but I think he's concerned that if we push it too , she'll use her guilt tactics and possibly make his other brother(the golden child) feel bad. His brother and his gf have acknowledged their life is much more peaceful after just a week of no contact but I think he still worries. Basically like I mentioned previously, my husband is the scapegoat(along with his one younger brother) of the family. I think he's afraid that if just he and myself break contact indefinitely that she will find a way to turn other family members just against the two of us. We still care about other members of the family aunt/uncle/grandma and would still like to see them. Also, the brothers are all super-duper close and I couldn't see them ever not speaking to one another but I think until we can all truly get away from her my husband thinks complete no-contact would make his brothers feel like we abandoned them. Especially because none of her kids really play into her game. They all see it for what it is and what she's like. They aren't minors. One is about to go to college and one had to move back home because he failed out of school(alot of this was due to him having a hard time adjusting to online learning because of the pandemic) It's a tough situation. We know it's healthier for us to have minimum contact long-term and we're hoping his other brother sees that too. I think they have trouble believing that you can't really rehabilitate NPD. Also, they think maybe their father will somehow come around. The man has been brainwashed for 30-something years, he enables not only his own abuse but theirs as well. I really don't think there's much help for him at this point.

[KatKp29]

Update:
So my husband and I along with his GC brother and his gf have been no contact with his NMom since March 24th. No texts/calls nothing! She surprisingly never reached out except for GC's birthday a week ago to just wish him a happy birthday("I couldn't imagine not talking to you on your birthday" "one of the happiest days of my life" ) the typical lovebombing. He gave her a generic thanks and that's it. We were expecting her to break or have their dad reach out on her behalf telling us we're "killing her" or something overly dramatic but she was on her best behavior. My husband and I said if she sent us a happy Easter text we would respond but that we wouldn't initiate anything. His brother and his gf did the same. We heard nothing from her on Easter.

However, yesterday I was at work and my husband(who works from home) was making lunch at our house. She shows up in the pouring rain knocking at our door crying(big husband said they seemed more like crocodile tears) and asking us why we haven't contacted her. My husband was totally blindsided he never expected her to show up. That is something we specifically asked her not to do, as per our message to her before we went no contact. Again, NMoms love crossing boundaries. She claimed to have no idea what she did wrong(even though her youngest sons had a talk with her and she supposedly had this huge "ephiphany" ). She said that our message said "a couple weeks" and she took that literally and thought well it's been about 2 weeks so they have to talk to me again now. My husband told her we'll talk to her when we're ready and that we aren't now. She kept repeating "you can't cut me out of your life" over and over again between her fake crying. She also blamed her favorite target(his younger brother, the other scapegoat child) and of course threw her cancer in my husband's face to make him feel bad. My husband threw his flying monkey father under the bus and said we had the secret meetings with him about her and told him our problems with her. He said "talk to dad if you really wanna find out what's going on". So I'm sure he's gonna hear an earful about it. Wouldn't be surprised if we get a shitty message/visit from him too.
My husband was furious when she left as she bombarded him with this on a work day during work hours when we specifically requested to have our space. Personally I don't buy any of this ignorance of not knowing why we won't talk to her. She knows it's because of her vile personality. She may not know the exact reasons but she has some idea. My husband texted his GC bro and his gf and warned them incase she stopped there too but she didn't. We think it's because she didn't want his gf to see her having one of her little meltdowns, must keep up the image of the perfect mother and family. My husband also told her it's not just the kids and that I'm pissed at her as well. She responded with "why would she be mad at me, I've shown her nothing but kindness" . Not only is that not true, but it's also what their dad told us almost verbatim when we had that meeting with him. I swear they rehearse this stuff! She also told my husband "oh I hope me stopping over here didn't make things worse" She has no idea.
So we're continuing to ignore her and we'll speak to her when/if we're ready. She made the situation worse for herself by violating our boundaries yet again. Our lives are yet again in turmoil now because she has cast her dark cloud over us again. Every time her name is mentioned there's a fight. We can't keep living like this. I really want us to go no contact on a permanent basis. My husband and his brother are still clinging to some hope that we can scare her enough to change things. I love him dearly but I really think he is being too optimistic and naive about this. It's his mom and I get that it's very difficult to admit these things but I am terrified if we decide to have kids. I'm already on the fence with kids in general but I know having her in the picture will just cause us misery and I truly worry about any future children being around her toxic atmosphere. Everyone says it gets worse when you have kids. How can I get through to my husband??

[Cat of the Canals]

Give him time. Understand what a difficult decision it is to go NC with a parent. Even my husband, who was always more aware of his mother's dysfunction compared to me and mine (he has literally said he won't know peace until she's dead), has never been able to bite the NC bullet. He's been on the brink a few times, but he always reverts back to, "I guess I can handle this version of LC."

I think often, "Why doesn't he just cut her off completely?" That's easy for me to say. I have no real emotional tie to her. And even though his tie is tenuous at best, there's still something there.

That being said, you can always at some point decide that YOU are NC with your MIL, even if he's not ready. It doesn't necessarily have to be a group decision.

[KatKp29]

Hi Cat!
Yes you are absolutely right! I feel terrible for wanting to cut her off sometimes. I genuinely never wanted to have a relationship like this with her. I feel awful that my husband has such a poor relationship with her too. My husband always says "it's so hard because she does do nice things sometimes" he says it's like death by a thousand daggers. It's not major things she does it's mostly just little things that pile up through the years.
We have discussed this and he totally supports me wanting to have minimal contact with her. He understands that I don't have that connection with her like he does. I think his reluctance comes mostly from his fear of her somehow pitting him against his brothers. They are so close. I think he wants a united front so to speak, but I told him ultimately he has to do what's best for himself.
I will keep her at a minimal contact for the immediate future. I think down the road I may just stop showing up for things and eventually go the NC route completely with her.
My problem comes when/if we have children. It's puts both of us in a difficult position. I don't want her around them at all but he may feel the need to let them see her. I truly would never keep my kids away from their grandmother just to be terrible. I am deeply concerned about what her influence could do to them. I'm afraid it might cause conflict between my husband and I and put a strain on our marriage and that is the last thing I want.
Also, I have told my husband that if we wants a relationship/contact with his mother I will 100% respect his wishes even though I may not agree with it. I just wish he would stop getting his hopes up of her changing for the better. That's what makes me sad for him. It's like what your husband says Cat, "I guess I'll settle for this version". If my husband would just say " I know she won't change but I'll take what I can get" I would rest assured that at least he isn't going to be heartbroken or disappointed by her. I just worry about him riding on this hope of "if we push/scare her enough maybe the whole dynamic of the family will change" I just hate seeing him get disappointed time and time again

[moglow]

If my husband would just say " I know she won't change but I'll take what I can get" I would rest assured that at least he isn't going to be heartbroken or disappointed by her. I just worry about him riding on this hope of "if we push/scare her enough maybe the whole dynamic of the family will change" I just hate seeing him get disappointed time and time again (https://outofthefog.net/forum/Smileys/default/sad.gif)

Not to be trite, but he *will* in all likelihood be heartbroken and disappointed by her. If she's anything like mine [and too many are] that'll hit when he's least prepared and most vulnerable to it. As another child-of, I spent decades doing any and everything for the good stuff, holding on to those fleeting moment where she was normal or at the least tolerable. That's honestly what's so damn hard, the sheer inconsistency of it all. If she/they were always horrible we could understandably and justifiably cut them off and be done. That's when I had to remind myself that no one [contrary to what she seemed to think!] was all good or all bad. It's a package deal, same as with the rest of us. And then we have to pick our poisons, knowing we'll beat ourselves up about it either way.

We dreaded mother becoming a grandmother, what she might do. As it turned out that was all for nothing - she has shown little to no interest in any of her grandchildren. Heartbreaking, knowing who and how amazing they are but in the big picture, not a huge surprise since she's never been interested in her own. The only time she acknowledged was when they were delivered to her for the scattered visits or on their birthdays. She retired many years ago and could have visited, had them visit her. But no. I consider it a blessing, but it still stings.

[KatKp29]

moglow- Yes you said it! For as much as I want to cut her off sometimes even I struggle with feeling guilty at even the thought of it. She does do very nice things sometimes and we all have had good times together. I will sometimes gaslight myself and ask I'm being too sensitive/paranoid. However, whenever she's super nice we always know that our next interaction with her will be misery. That's just how she is, it's almost like clockwork. For as nice as she can be though, I often notice how much credit she expects for doing the typical things a mother should do. Whenever she gives gifts for example she always has to mention how hard she tried to find a nice present like she just wants endless praise and thanks for it. Always saying things like "I just always try so hard to do nice things for you boys" "I go out of my way to get you nice gifts." That's what snaps me back to reality and I think "my mom doesn't do this, this isn't normal" I didn't grow up with a mother like that and while my mom isn't perfect she never makes you feel like you need to constantly tell her what a great mom she is. That reeks of insecurity to me.
It's also worth mentioning that my FIL hasn't seen/spoken to his family in about 26 years. Full blown NC. The kids don't even know what they look like. My MIL and FIL cut off not only his parents but all 3 of his siblings as well. My husband barely remembers them and the other 3 have no memory of them/werent even born yet. To this day, my almost 30 year old husband still doesn't know the full story. They won't talk about it, only saying they were "bad people" or "toxic people." Lately my husband and his siblings have begun to question this narrative and now they wonder if their mom is solely responsible for this. Seems hypocritical to cry "don't cut me out of your life" when she quite literally separated her husband from his ENTIRE family, and we really doubt he had much of a say in it. Who knows, maybe they were bad people but again, they're still family. They also deprived my husband and BILs of know their grandparents, aunts/uncles and cousins. THAT fact sometimes makes me feel less guilty about the prospect of them cutting them off altogether at some point as well.