OCPD fear of irreversible decisions

Prototypian · April 30, 2022, 10:31:06 AM

My spouse is uOCPD. I've noticed she has a strong fear of irreversible decisions but this extends to anything. An example of this is that yesterday we were at a large sporting event for high school kids with thousands of people. They have gates and tickets and rules for carrying stuff in and clear bag policies etc. When we got there we were close to time for the girls event which two of our son's friends were in from his school then he would be up in the following event. Her fear was "what if I need something from the car but can't go back?". She had the cash for the entry and was controlling the situation. We had a 1/4 mile walk and then tickets and security stuff then get to seats. And I kind of wanted to see the girls run from my kids school. Her fear was polarizing. She wanted to bring in sunscreen and water bottles but also to follow the rules. I wanted to just stuff a water bottle into my cargo shorts and a tube of sunscreen and walk brazenly through the gate staffed by lazy volunteers. It took 30 minutes and we missed the girls running because of the concern and finally having to leave the stuff at the car, check with the officials at the ticket booth who were so disinterested we had to ask their manager before we learned that plastic water bottles and sunscreen were on and then go back to the car and get them. But her fear was not the rules in this case. It was going in and realizing we would not be able to go back to our car or get caught with a water bottle. And it was okay to miss the activity to not be caught in a situation of being left without the ability to go back to our car if we needed something. That was the fear. What if I need it and can't get to it. And with it, it was completely ok to miss what was important.

I've noticed that committing to going into a store, a movie or a restaurant from the car is agonizing to her. Leaving the security of the car with the thought that she could need chapstick or sunglasses or a charging cable or a notebook is the worst thing even worse than being late for or missing the activity. It's completely worth it to miss something and she actually prefers that to being forced to make a decision. We have missed plane flights because of this type of concern before so the thought of major consequences is never a problem as long as the decision isn't forced

Just curious if anyone else sees this in OCPD behaviors.

Poison Ivy · April 30, 2022, 10:46:34 AM

Obsessive-compulsive thoughts and behavior come in a variety of forms. Your wife appears to be very severely affected. I wish, for her sake and yours, that she would be willing to be treated for the disorder.

SonofThunder · April 30, 2022, 11:12:41 AM

My uPDstbx does similar things, but from a combo of a NPD/PPD traits and sometimes done to simply manipulate situations to try and control me and put me in a lose/lose predicament choice.

Jsinjin you wrote:

"She had the cash for the entry and was controlling the situation. We had a 1/4 mile walk and then tickets and security stuff then get to seats. And I kind of wanted to see the girls run from my kids school."

Once i saw repetition in these behaviors, i realized a necessary boundary of planning ahead for myself, not allowing my stbxw to thwart my desires for these good and adult-rights decisions for myself.

So, in your situation i would carry the cash as well and when I realized she was going to delay once again, making us late, I told her she could go back, but i was going in.

Now that decision is a purposefully created lose/lose by my stbx. Choices are A: go back and she wins manipulation. B: Go in without her and face after-event confrontation followed by silent treatment. Once i learned the toolbox, B was my choice always and repetition experience of this helped moved her from devaluation modes to discard modes since devalue wasn't sticking.

So Jsinjin, i suggest you plan ahead for yourself with necessary boundary controls to control yourself (cash in this case), plan for the lose/lose situation (push through fear) and plan for self-protection afterward. Tons of work on our part, just to do simple things, but imo, thats life with a PD.

*when i say NPD/PPD with my stbxw, it typically revolved around valuables she believed were necessary to bring with her at all times, but thinks that all of humanity desires her high-end goods and that they will break into her high-end automobile and steal her possessions. Therefore, the PPD part is 🤔 double-checking the auto is locked, in the best possible parking space to avoid a break-in, and the valuables are hidden well.

Jsinjin, does she do these same patterns when the event is HER event and being late will smear her social reputation...??? My stbxw would not be creatively late to events where her reputation was at stake, but only MY events or joint events where her social reputation wasn't going to be affected.

SoT

Prototypian · April 30, 2022, 11:57:15 AM

SOT:

Hers is definitely different. If the event were hers she would work out the logistics and rules from the very start even working with the team at the event to understand questions like "what do we tell people is the average distance they will have to walk from their cars?" or "let's make sure to define all the specifics on what allowed items are approved". When it is her event she will exercise literally hundreds of hours of planning to handle every single detail for every type of contingency. And when she is in charge it's no problem postpone the event if the rules aren't defined. She doesn't actually treat herself any different or hold herself to any higher standards than the rest of us. It's never ever a "I'm right and you're wrong". For her it's "are the rules 100 percent fair and spelled out and does every single person follow them especially me". As a politician she is the most above corruption and graft I've ever seen to the point that when she goes to events like a chamber of commerce luncheon paid for by some bank, she will politely ask the catering how much the cost is per head and if it is above the specific dollar about that her position is allowed to receive then she will simply bring in a water bottle and refuse to eat. It's polite and without any pretends and not to draw attention to herself but it's the rules. Her reputation means absolutely nothing to her in terms of jaw dropping disbelief, being late, being seen as uncooperative or taking extra time. To her these things are the rules and they must be followed not to prove but because they are the rules.

We don't have concerns for her losing things or break-ins. The concern with parking is always what is allowed. If the lot doesn't have designated signs that say "park anywhere" then she is very concerned about parking where we shouldn't. It's not paralyzing to her either. She absolutely knows what she is looking for. She wants a definite specification that either these open spaces are not off limits or they are. The in between leaves too much for the potential that a rule is broken. It's why our trash cans have to be exactly 6-12 inches from the curb measured and checked to make sure they are not blocking any view of the road. The rule in the city code somewhere says this. We have had a temporary mailbox on a 2 x 4 for 12 years because she still has not sound a document specifying the allowed height for a mailbox. Until we do the concern is hat a more permanent thing would be wrong.

I just never know when it is going to strike or how it will manifest. Today we are at a hotel and decided to go for a walk this morning and the deepest concern she had was the allowed crossing at a light where there was no pedestrian crosswalk and no indicator of a walk light. Again, it's not the fear of injury, not the prove to others she follows the rules, it's that there must be a rule for this and we don't want to cross the street until we know it. oCD I could handle which is that she "hates crosswalks" or "is afraid of being hit by a car". Narcissist I could understand which is "I want to show the world that I am a good person and cross the street at a crosswalk". The OCPD behavior is that if they come upon something that has to be interpretation on what to do, it should not be done until a determinant authority decision is made.

She does this for all of her life. And expects all others to do it and it's not for show. It's an absolute to the end of the earth core belief that I have only recently understood. If a huge group of people is leaving their cars at a stadium, walking toward a gate with a line and obvious ticket vending and they are all carrying seat pads and cameras and are parents, she will not ever allow herself o assume that the crowd is the way to go. The whole group could be wrong so until she finds an authority and asks "is that the ticket booth" and then asks "is that the entry for parents" and checks "is thay the only entry or is there anothrr one and which one should I go to" she can't commit. The assumptions about normal behaviors simply don't fire in her brain and that is not a good enough excuse for assuming the rules operate in this way. The only mean part is the anger if someone like me chooses to sneak in a water bottle if it's not allowed.

SonofThunder · April 30, 2022, 12:24:28 PM

Jsinjin, yes, your thorough description is very different than my experiences, although the end result is the same in some circumstances (missing the start of an event for example, due to PD behaviors).

Thank you for your full description, for my understanding. With regard to my comment about each of you having equally 'adult' rights to chose for yourself; have you tried not following her OCD ways and doing the action/activity your way, letting her just do thing in the way that soothes her OCD?

SoT

Prototypian · April 30, 2022, 02:00:07 PM

Hi SOT:

Thanks. Yes it is different behavior which is why it's been so difficult for me to understand. But I'm starting to get it and it is not something that really can be changed based on former counseling sessions and events and meetings. She has a hard wired belief system that actually sees the world through a set of glasses that I don't see.

I think that my choices are to leave and provide the right runway for the kids or live with it because in her mind the inflexibility is not possible to reconcile.

I listened to an audiobook by Bill OReilly on a long drive. It was called "Killing the SS" which was about the post world war II efforts to being Nazi war criminals to justice. What I learned that was strange was how inflexible the belief was that the actions taken as commands or decisions or policies were carried out because they were "necessary". The men and women on trial at Nuremberg believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the actions were necessary and required. It was strange. You heard and saw transcripts where human beings were convinced that it was necessary to carry out actions that killled millions of innocents.

That's an extreme version but I couldn't help noticing they were not sadists, some were ot acting as narcissists and were expressing surprise they were even being questioned about the actions since they were all "necessary".

I see some similar facts in things and roles that are related to audits or compliance. I once had a home inspector who came over and pointed out that the bedrooms (right next to each other with doors 6 inches apart needed a smoke detector above each entry because that's code. I have learned not to argue with inspectors at all and I'll install it despite it being 6 inches from the other. But I joked that I was actually going to put a howler monkey up there instead of a second smoke alarm and that should handle it. I'm not kidding he was shaking and lost it. He was showing me rules, talking about how monkeys are rnot allowed int he city, threatening a red card if I tried that, asking if I was refusing to put the smoke alarm up. And I truly felt like I was talking to my wife. 99 percent of the population would get how silly and joking that conversation was and that I wasn't actually going to put a howler monkey up there but he actually never lost that concern after I said it and checked every time.

I didn't know about OCPD back then but now I see it every once in a while in people who are involved in things like homeowner associations or local civics watch groups. They're not active looking to be in everyone's business. They truly have a defect where the orders should be followed and are not a joke. Fighting with them is useless because they know and always follow the policy and if you try to get it forgotten or joke about it, they are the ones who will escalate and fight this to the death. If you put a new roof on and it's a shade darker than the HOa allows they are the ones who will demand that is be removed and replaced and be happy that it is fixed because it now confirms to the rules.

And in my life I've started to realize they can't be reasoned with.

BeautifulCrazy · April 30, 2022, 03:30:30 PM

I feel it necessary to point out, as someone with diagnosed OCD married to someone with OCPD, that there is a huge difference between OCD and OCPD.

(I see in this thread that reference has been made a few times to OCD, which may be just be typos or an ill applied abbreviation.)

I am suffering quite a bit with my OCD this week so I may be especially touchy

Although it is possible to suffer from both OCD and OCPD simultaneously, I think the biggest difference of all between the two is that those of us with OCD have self -standards / rituals / compulsions. We do not impose them on others. When friends, family or others are inconvenienced or affected by our OCD symptoms it is usually a source of embarrassment and distress and something we try to avoid. This is a crucial difference between someone with a disorder and someone personality disordered.

Poison Ivy · April 30, 2022, 03:55:54 PM

Thank you, BeautifulCrazy. I might have mistakenly mixed up the terminology. I agree with your post. Someone in my family has had OCD and has worked on treating it but is far from having a personality disorder.

SonofThunder · April 30, 2022, 06:33:11 PM

Quote from: BeautifulCrazy on April 30, 2022, 03:30:30 PM
I feel it necessary to point out, as someone with diagnosed OCD married to someone with OCPD, that there is a huge difference between OCD and OCPD.

(I see in this thread that reference has been made a few times to OCD, which may be just be typos or an ill applied abbreviation.)

I am suffering quite a bit with my OCD this week so I may be especially touchy

Although it is possible to suffer from both OCD and OCPD simultaneously, I think the biggest difference of all between the two is that those of us with OCD have self -standards / rituals / compulsions. We do not impose them on others. When friends, family or others are inconvenienced or affected by our OCD symptoms it is usually a source of embarrassment and distress and something we try to avoid. This is a crucial difference between someone with a disorder and someone personality disordered.

Good point. Yes OCPD. I believe it was me who left off the 'D'. I have OCD traits as well, which i believe is a result of C-PTSD, from growing up with my uNPDf and then amplified by my uPDw for 30 years. Lol, an acronym deluge in two sentences 😂

SoT

SonofThunder · April 30, 2022, 06:51:41 PM

Quote from: Jsinjin on April 30, 2022, 02:00:07 PM
Hi SOT:

Thanks. Yes it is different behavior which is why it's been so difficult for me to understand. But I'm starting to get it and it is not something that really can be changed based on former counseling sessions and events and meetings. She has a hard wired belief system that actually sees the world through a set of glasses that I don't see.

I think that my choices are to leave and provide the right runway for the kids or live with it because in her mind the inflexibility is not possible to reconcile.

I listened to an audiobook by Bill OReilly on a long drive. It was called "Killing the SS" which was about the post world war II efforts to being Nazi war criminals to justice. What I learned that was strange was how inflexible the belief was that the actions taken as commands or decisions or policies were carried out because they were "necessary". The men and women on trial at Nuremberg believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the actions were necessary and required. It was strange. You heard and saw transcripts where human beings were convinced that it was necessary to carry out actions that killled millions of innocents.

That's an extreme version but I couldn't help noticing they were not sadists, some were ot acting as narcissists and were expressing surprise they were even being questioned about the actions since they were all "necessary".

I see some similar facts in things and roles that are related to audits or compliance. I once had a home inspector who came over and pointed out that the bedrooms (right next to each other with doors 6 inches apart needed a smoke detector above each entry because that's code. I have learned not to argue with inspectors at all and I'll install it despite it being 6 inches from the other. But I joked that I was actually going to put a howler monkey up there instead of a second smoke alarm and that should handle it. I'm not kidding he was shaking and lost it. He was showing me rules, talking about how monkeys are rnot allowed int he city, threatening a red card if I tried that, asking if I was refusing to put the smoke alarm up. And I truly felt like I was talking to my wife. 99 percent of the population would get how silly and joking that conversation was and that I wasn't actually going to put a howler monkey up there but he actually never lost that concern after I said it and checked every time.

I didn't know about OCPD back then but now I see it every once in a while in people who are involved in things like homeowner associations or local civics watch groups. They're not active looking to be in everyone's business. They truly have a defect where the orders should be followed and are not a joke. Fighting with them is useless because they know and always follow the policy and if you try to get it forgotten or joke about it, they are the ones who will escalate and fight this to the death. If you put a new roof on and it's a shade darker than the HOa allows they are the ones who will demand that is be removed and replaced and be happy that it is fixed because it now confirms to the rules.

And in my life I've started to realize they can't be reasoned with.

Hello Jsinjin. You wrote:

"I think that my choices are to leave and provide the right runway for the kids or live with it because in her mind the inflexibility is not possible to reconcile."

There is, imo a third choice, and its related to the question I asked before and also coincides with your second choice of "live with it".

I wrote:

"With regard to my comment about each of you having equally 'adult' rights to chose for yourself; have you tried not following her OCD ways and doing the action/activity your way, letting her just do thing in the way that soothes her OCD?"

'Living with it' imo, does not necessarily mean complying with it. Living physically in a marital relationship with your OCPDw, but you living out your life in non-OCPD decision making will, imo, put you squarely in those fear-based, decision-making crossroads of confrontation. Those confrontations may eventually cause your first choice to occur (to leave..) but imo, your second choice, should you continue in going along with her OCPD ways, could be a sacrifice of your emotional (and therefore physical) health.

How will you decide?

1. Leave
2. Live-with/comply-with the OCPD at the potential sacrifice of yourself
3. Live with HER in a non OCPD lifestyle and face the fear and confrontation.

SoT

Prototypian · April 30, 2022, 08:30:14 PM

All three are good things to think about. At the moment I'm taking it through steps: finishing up the second house which I'm very close on, getting the second kid off to college and building up my finances to have access to money to leave. I just need to stay mentally healthy through those steps.

SonofThunder · April 30, 2022, 08:43:56 PM

Quote from: Jsinjin on April 30, 2022, 08:30:14 PM
All three are good things to think about. At the moment I'm taking it through steps: finishing up the second house which I'm very close on, getting the second kid off to college and building up my finances to have access to money to leave. I just need to stay mentally healthy through those steps.

Totally understood. I had to do the same thing regarding finances and planning to protect my employees regarding the fallout of a divorce from a PD. Estimates of time necessary to complete?

I took route #3 which led to discard with punishment-manipulations, which is like living with an highly inconsiderate college roommate. Then recently she crossed some sacred lines with me and that was the clincher. #2 would have been even more unbearable on my mental and therefore physical health, and would have been the resumption of 'caretaking' to keep the peace. I refused to go there I have (sadly) decades of experience in caretaking 😔.

From your writing, it seems you believe you have analyzed her very well and now understand her OCPD traits as they unfold, which imo, will allow you to predict her actions/reactions and preempt the situation for a non-OCPD choice for yourself should you choose #3.

Thoughts and prayers for your forward movement.

SoT

BeautifulCrazy · April 30, 2022, 10:02:04 PM

I agree with SoT. Staying doesn't necessarily mean complying. You can let her make her own choices, while protecting and making use of your equal right to make your own choices.

Having said that, I know how difficult and frightening and completely wrong that feels the first bunch of times you do it. Or even just thinking about it before you do... Those were white-knuckling times for me, for sure!
I don't think I could have done it so wonderfully well without my therapist to help me write, role play and practice my boundary holding techniques. I practiced in the car and in the bathroom too.

Once I got deep into it with therapy and working the toolbox here, my choices shifted from SonofThunder's outlined #2 (stay/comply), to #3 (stay/ do not comply). It was good for me to realize I had that choice, even though at first it didn't FEEL like I did.

It went quickly for me from there.

I'm #1 now!! Coming up on 2 years out soon.

BeautifulCrazy · April 30, 2022, 10:13:55 PM

I posted before I was quite finished there!

Jsinjin, I hope you have, or can find, a therapist to help you through these times. Or even a trusted friend. The more support / validation you can find irl, the better.
I would also strongly suggest that you encourage your kids into therapy, in any way they can realistically get there. Whether on their own, independently, or with you as part of a family.