Enmeshment

[SonofThunder]

Hello all,

When i started out on Out of the FOG, i saw nothing wrong with the PM=private messaging feature of Out of the FOG, but i was wisely counseled about the fact that many of these topics inquired about in PM's may be very beneficial to chat about in the forum boards here on Out of the FOG.  Therefore i do not personally reply to PM's regarding topics that can be discussed on the boards.   

One subject that came up was enmeshment, and freeing oneself from enmeshment.  My answer for myself may be more simple than one would expect, but at the same time, a very tangled reality to slowly unwind.  Imo, the only way I have been able to become un-enmeshed, both emotionally and in the case of my uPDf, also financially and legally (business matters), was to fully understand myself and also to (as best possible) understand the other person i'm enmeshed with. 

Imo enmeshing requires both parties to be the type of personalities that are ripe for enmeshing.  I was a 'caretaker' and both my uPDf and uPDw are predator-feeders. 

Predators need a target to feed on, and Caretakers are naturals at feeding others, allowing others to feed off them and then mentally validating that their Caretaking traits are loving.  Predators willingly will take what they can take (manipulation and control) and take what is supplied effortlessly to them.

The most beneficial resource i learned, was that i was a natural and excellent caretaker.  I learned this by reading Fjelstads 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist', which floored me about myself and also taught me how I was enabling enmeshment with two very creative, covert and professional/skilled PD manipulators.

I stopped Caretaking (changed myself) and the un-enmeshing gloves came off by my PD predator feeders which also assisted me in validating my opinions of the two predators.  Once i learned about myself, validated to myself about the two PD people in my life, i dove headfirst into the Out of the FOG toolbox and other resources (books, video's, discussions) in order to practice and hone my skills at self-protection, planning and implementation of protective plans.

Therefore, my recommendation to anyone here, who needs to un-enmesh, is to learn first about yourself and then as much as possible about those whom you may be enmeshed with.  Once doing so, design plans to un-enmesh in steady erosion (not a flood) over time.  Doing this at a steady, slow pace, has kept me flying under the radar and moving forward: like the science experiment of the frog slowly boiling to death (vs leaping out) in a pot of steadily warming water and not noticing the temperature increase over time until its too late. 

Any here who have successfully un-enmeshed with another person (chosen or unchosen), please add your stories and advise to this thread (or point to other existing threads) so that those here who seek un-enmeshment, may find what it is that they seek. 

SoT

[StartingHealing]

Thank you SonOfThunder for posting this. 

[SonofThunder]

Thank you SonOfThunder for posting this.

Hello StartingHealing,

You are very welcome and I look forward to the conversation that ensues on this thread. I am interested in reading about others' and their successes and even learned-from failures.  Ive had many of each along the way, and embrace both, as failures can be more beneficial in future planning although difficult in experience.  But embracing and expecting both, helps me keep my head down while pressing forward, yet spirits up as i sidestep and plan forward.

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

One thing I have learned about stopping enmeshment behaviors is that it is easier to do if and when I feel protected from another person's potentially harmful behaviors. First thing is to determine whether another person's behavior actually could harm me. If the behavior couldn't harm me, I feel more comfortable withdrawing my caregiving behaviors. Example: When I was married, I discovered that my husband's driver's license was in danger of being revoked. I found this very distressing, but then I reminded myself that I did not depend on him for transportation and that if our adult children visited, I could transport them, if necessary. I persuaded myself to not becoming involved with my husband's driver's license issues.

[Pepin]

Thank you for this as well.  With the passing of DPD CN MIL, my DH is now technically free of the enmeshment from her.  But what does this mean for him next?  I don't think he has realized yet what kind of spell he was under.  His mother was absolutely operating like a predator taking advantage of her son who was born and heavily groomed to be a rescuer.  DH does like to fix things and people - which is sad because he needs to help himself.  He's been ignoring his own needs for years.  I've been trying to carefully guide him into making healthier decisions for himself and using his time more efficiently in a way that benefits him - while being careful not to fall into a caretaking trap myself towards him.  I just want the man back that I originally married; not the man that his mother trapped because she was upset that I married him.

[1footouttadefog]

I believe that there is a cycle of enmeshment that takes place in many families and that this can go for generations. 

I can see the patterns going back in both my and my pdHs sides of the family.

For myself caretaking was an outlet and safe haven from my abusive older brothers and their druggie friends.  (Nothing sexual). So this curled around to validate caretaking as a virtue.

I became involved at church as a preteen.  I lived within walking distance and found myself enjoying the social interactions that came from jumping in as a helper in the office, or in the church kitchen.  Later I was involved in choir, children's church, youth group, nursing home ministry, bus ministry.  I had a life away from home and school.  My Jr Hi years were a mess of bullying and worse.  There were several pedophile teachers at my Jr High and they played mental ans social games with the students like we were marrionettes to engineer opportunities for their sick behaviours.  I was bullied due to untruthful things a teacher and a dean told other students about me to separate me from a target of theirs.  One of the kids bacame an alcoholic and later during a 12 steps program looked me up for confession and connected alot if dots for me about those years.

Caretaking and long suffering were validated as away to handle life.  I ended up with a spouse who eventually broke under the burden of his own abuse and trama.  We were weshed until his grandious narc mother passed.  Then I was put into her position and parentified and reciever a new confusing Mish mash of attitudes and behaviours from pdh.  It felt horrible and I struggled even more to caretaker and fix things until I had nothing left. 

At some point I was struggling and two women at a Book and Bible study I was attending recognized what I was dealing with and gave me advise that was empowering.  It was also contrary to my previous churches culture and mindset.  This was very helpful at that moment.  It was about how my pdh was sabotaging our getting to places on time by creating drama at the last minute.  They firmly stated the obvious.  We needed to take separate cars.  As silly as it sounds this was one of the biggest first steps to disengaging and unenmeshing. 

PDH was diagnosed with PTSD and my studying up on that lead me to checking out personality disorders and to outofthefog.

At my beginnings here it was very much a running theme that you start with yourself because you cannot change the pd.  I found the traits list and marked items that were mine and items that where pdhs.  I understood there was alot of firms of abuse some subtle some not.  I decided to own my part and start with that.  This way in my thinking I would know O had done my part of I had to call it quits.

[StartingHealing]

I believe that there is a cycle of enmeshment that takes place in many families and that this can go for generations. 

I can see the patterns going back in both my and my pdHs sides of the family.

For myself caretaking was an outlet and safe haven from my abusive older brothers and their druggie friends.  (Nothing sexual). So this curled around to validate caretaking as a virtue.

I became involved at church as a preteen.  I lived within walking distance and found myself enjoying the social interactions that came from jumping in as a helper in the office, or in the church kitchen.  Later I was involved in choir, children's church, youth group, nursing home ministry, bus ministry.  I had a life away from home and school.  My Jr Hi years were a mess of bullying and worse.  There were several pedophile teachers at my Jr High and they played mental ans social games with the students like we were marrionettes to engineer opportunities for their sick behaviours.  I was bullied due to untruthful things a teacher and a dean told other students about me to separate me from a target of theirs.  One of the kids bacame an alcoholic and later during a 12 steps program looked me up for confession and connected alot if dots for me about those years.

Caretaking and long suffering were validated as away to handle life.  I ended up with a spouse who eventually broke under the burden of his own abuse and trama.  We were weshed until his grandious narc mother passed.  Then I was put into her position and parentified and reciever a new confusing Mish mash of attitudes and behaviours from pdh.  It felt horrible and I struggled even more to caretaker and fix things until I had nothing left. 

At some point I was struggling and two women at a Book and Bible study I was attending recognized what I was dealing with and gave me advise that was empowering.  It was also contrary to my previous churches culture and mindset.  This was very helpful at that moment.  It was about how my pdh was sabotaging our getting to places on time by creating drama at the last minute.  They firmly stated the obvious.  We needed to take separate cars.  As silly as it sounds this was one of the biggest first steps to disengaging and unenmeshing. 

PDH was diagnosed with PTSD and my studying up on that lead me to checking out personality disorders and to outofthefog.

At my beginnings here it was very much a running theme that you start with yourself because you cannot change the pd.  I found the traits list and marked items that were mine and items that where pdhs.  I understood there was alot of firms of abuse some subtle some not.  I decided to own my part and start with that.  This way in my thinking I would know O had done my part of I had to call it quits.

Where is the traits list?   Yes, certainly, I'm working on myself.   I'm learning new ways of thinking / behaving / starting to ease out of the caretaker roll.

[SonofThunder]

I believe that there is a cycle of enmeshment that takes place in many families and that this can go for generations. 

I can see the patterns going back in both my and my pdHs sides of the family.

For myself caretaking was an outlet and safe haven from my abusive older brothers and their druggie friends.  (Nothing sexual). So this curled around to validate caretaking as a virtue.

I became involved at church as a preteen.  I lived within walking distance and found myself enjoying the social interactions that came from jumping in as a helper in the office, or in the church kitchen.  Later I was involved in choir, children's church, youth group, nursing home ministry, bus ministry.  I had a life away from home and school.  My Jr Hi years were a mess of bullying and worse.  There were several pedophile teachers at my Jr High and they played mental ans social games with the students like we were marrionettes to engineer opportunities for their sick behaviours.  I was bullied due to untruthful things a teacher and a dean told other students about me to separate me from a target of theirs.  One of the kids bacame an alcoholic and later during a 12 steps program looked me up for confession and connected alot if dots for me about those years.

Caretaking and long suffering were validated as away to handle life.  I ended up with a spouse who eventually broke under the burden of his own abuse and trama.  We were weshed until his grandious narc mother passed.  Then I was put into her position and parentified and reciever a new confusing Mish mash of attitudes and behaviours from pdh.  It felt horrible and I struggled even more to caretaker and fix things until I had nothing left. 

At some point I was struggling and two women at a Book and Bible study I was attending recognized what I was dealing with and gave me advise that was empowering.  It was also contrary to my previous churches culture and mindset.  This was very helpful at that moment.  It was about how my pdh was sabotaging our getting to places on time by creating drama at the last minute.  They firmly stated the obvious.  We needed to take separate cars.  As silly as it sounds this was one of the biggest first steps to disengaging and unenmeshing. 

PDH was diagnosed with PTSD and my studying up on that lead me to checking out personality disorders and to outofthefog.

At my beginnings here it was very much a running theme that you start with yourself because you cannot change the pd.  I found the traits list and marked items that were mine and items that where pdhs.  I understood there was alot of firms of abuse some subtle some not.  I decided to own my part and start with that.  This way in my thinking I would know O had done my part of I had to call it quits.

Where is the traits list?   Yes, certainly, I'm working on myself.   I'm learning new ways of thinking / behaving / starting to ease out of the caretaker roll.

SH, its located at the Out of the FOG top tabs under 'personality disorders'  Link below.

https://outofthefog.website/traits/

Highly recommend the toolbox to protect yourself from these traits you may recognize.  Also cannot recommend enough the 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' book by Fjelstad.  You will learn about both your PD person and yourself, and see the enmeshment connection required to be a 'Caretaker'. 

SoT

[StartingHealing]

Thank you SoT.  (Mods, if this post needs moved please do so)

I did obtain a copy of Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist and am currently engaged in a 1st read through.  I suspect that I will be revisiting it multiple times.  I also have Stop Walking On Eggshells.  I did find several youtube channels that have the audiobook of Stop Walking On Eggshells. 

I have a sense of pride though.  During her last negative episode, I was able to stay in my wise mind, and at one point told her to stop shaking her finger in my face.  She justified it by saying that she was embellishing (hand gestures) to add to her verbal barrage. I returned with "Stop shaking your finger in my face like I'm a child that you are attempting to shame"  there were also some cuss words on my part.  However, she did stop shaking her finger in my face.    I know that it's not the end all be all in this situation but I feel like it was a good 1st step.  Not to mention that I also was rebuffing several of her projections on me. 

I received a perspective from another person I know who is in a relationship with a PD, that appeasement ultimately erodes respect from the PD to the person that is appeasing.  That was / is very eye opening for me. But it also makes sense as to why her behavior towards me has gotten worse over time. 

since I did those actions I have found my own emotional state to be in a much better place.  I had been feeling "stuck" but after that, I feel like there is a path forward for me. 

Cheers

[1footouttadefog]

We do to a degree teach others how they can treat us.  We can also change how we expect to be treated.  It will come with resistance as others have made a habit of certain things and will have to adjust along with us

Sometimes they will apply the use a bigger hammer mindset.  If a tool they have been used to using no longer seems to work, like a hammer for example they will often reach for a bigger hammer, and if not a hammer a club or baseball bat or a boulder even.

Don't be surprised if things intermittently get worse before they get better.  The other party may find themselves very frustrated at the changes taking place in you.

[StartingHealing]

We do to a degree teach others how they can treat us.  We can also change how we expect to be treated.  It will come with resistance as others have made a habit of certain things and will have to adjust along with us

Sometimes they will apply the use a bigger hammer mindset.  If a tool they have been used to using no longer seems to work, like a hammer for example they will often reach for a bigger hammer, and if not a hammer a club or baseball bat or a boulder even.

Don't be surprised if things intermittently get worse before they get better.  The other party may find themselves very frustrated at the changes taking place in you.

That is a very strong possibility.  However, the fact that I'm doing the changing, which is under my control, she will react however she will react.  It's not like I will treat her in a negative manner.  With the gradual stopping of the caretaking behaviors, also puts the focus back on myself.  It's a shift in the mental point of origin. IMO

[SonofThunder]

We do to a degree teach others how they can treat us.  We can also change how we expect to be treated.  It will come with resistance as others have made a habit of certain things and will have to adjust along with us

Sometimes they will apply the use a bigger hammer mindset.  If a tool they have been used to using no longer seems to work, like a hammer for example they will often reach for a bigger hammer, and if not a hammer a club or baseball bat or a boulder even.

Don't be surprised if things intermittently get worse before they get better.  The other party may find themselves very frustrated at the changes taking place in you.

That is a very strong possibility.  However, the fact that I'm doing the changing, which is under my control, she will react however she will react.  It's not like I will treat her in a negative manner.  With the gradual stopping of the caretaking behaviors, also puts the focus back on myself.  It's a shift in the mental point of origin. IMO

+1

SoT

[1footouttadefog]

A shift to you being you and owning your part of things and no more would be positive even if it does not recue the relationship. 

For many the tools don't fix or save the relationship.  They instead help us to gain ourselves back and become emotionally disconnected enough to catch our breath and begin to live again as apposed to merely surviving.  It is from this position if greater strength that we best make the hard decisions about a reality that becomes clarified as the fog clears. 

[Poison Ivy]

 

[falsebalance2]

A shift to you being you and owning your part of things and no more would be positive even if it does not recue the relationship. 

For many the tools don't fix or save the relationship.  They instead help us to gain ourselves back and become emotionally disconnected enough to catch our breath and begin to live again as apposed to merely surviving.  It is from this position if greater strength that we best make the hard decisions about a reality that becomes clarified as the fog clears.

Wow keeping that for myself!



SOT praying for you!

[SonofThunder]

A shift to you being you and owning your part of things and no more would be positive even if it does not recue the relationship. 

For many the tools don't fix or save the relationship.  They instead help us to gain ourselves back and become emotionally disconnected enough to catch our breath and begin to live again as apposed to merely surviving.  It is from this position if greater strength that we best make the hard decisions about a reality that becomes clarified as the fog clears.

Wow keeping that for myself!



SOT praying for you!

Thank you falsebalance2!

SoT