Kids who remember before NC

[Call Me Cordelia]

I wrote not long ago on this board that my parents were pretty checked out as grandparents, really not interested in my kids at all. I tried and tried to facilitate that relationship.

I just found out from my eldest child that the one and only time my kids stayed overnight with my parents, they simply stuck them in front of the tv for approximately six hours. This is a boundary violation too because they know we really limit screen time for our kids for many reasons and I would never have okayed this. I know my son is telling the truth, because of certain details and he's just a kid who tells the truth generally. And my kids somehow never told me, when normally they tell me all sorts of things. Coincidence I think not.   

Granted, this was five years ago now. But it does stick in my craw a bit. At least until I deal with this new bit of information. They hardly ever saw their grandchildren, by their own choice, and certainly weren't aware of the PRIVILEGE they were given. And certainly never pursued it. It was very one-sided. When they had time with these kids, they wasted it or spent it with them only grudgingly. And of course, when it was withdrawn, cried foul.

My son only brought it up because he wanted to watch back-to-back movies. GRANDPA let him...

I feel anger about the violation here and that my son framed them as being generous and me as being mean. But mostly I'm once again just so so glad we're NC. One more bit of evidence that there was not love there for us. Son, if you don't understand that's okay. It's not your job to validate me.

But it's still a bit of a lonely place to be here between these generations. I still do wish I had a real mom and dad sometimes and that you had real grandparents. And didn't have to be the hard ass who has all the rock-solid boundaries all the time.

Not least because part of me would have loved the opportunity to give them a piece of my mind over this one.

My son also brought up how he never gets to see "special people" anymore, namely relatives. Perhaps it was beneath me, but I countered that if he had special people he finally got to spend a day with, would he put movies on for them and then go do something else? Ugh ugh ugh.

I do think my son knows our NC situation is still a sore point for me and he tests me with it, as preteens will leverage any perceived advantage at times.

I don't like the vibe around NC though in my house. As my kids are getting older, at least the two who have clear memories of my parents, I am wondering how to address when those memories come up if it should be different now? In this case he was using them against me. That's really crappy and cheap. I am also sure he has no idea just how crappy and cheap. But this isn't the first time with those kids that they're upset about something else and then hit on the NC just to feed their emotion, seems like.

[BefuddledClarity]

Hi Call Me Cordelia, that situation sounds frustrating, since your son has been using the NC against you.

I've been pondering myself on how to explain to my toddler son when he's older, why certain people in the family are/will be NC/LC...

Since my son is young, I would say "Mommy has been hurt by PDgrandparents, and wants to ensure that you are not hurt the same" if he were to ask about the NC...

Not sure if this is helpful, but maybe start small? Mentioned some of the abuse you've faced with your PDparents and how you want to protect your kids from that.

There's also a lot of movies too that reflect toxic parent's relationships with their children [Disney/Pixar examples would ve "Rapunzel", "Encantó", and "Turning Red". There's also this movie called "Mommie Dearest", with is a biography about an celebrity who's abusive to her daughter. There's also an anime movie from Studio Ghibli I like as well, it takes place in WWII, where these children's mother die, and so their PDaunt takes them in, begrudgingly.]

There's some books too, that may help explain any questions your son my have.

I would also remind son that "family" isn't always blood, "family", are people who support, care, and love you unconditionally.

From your (preteen) son's point of view, he may feel that he's missing out by not having grandparents like his peers and is redirecting his anger at you, thinking you're taking them away [when really you are protecting him].

Also, don't feel bad about not having grandparents for him ...I grew up with only one grandma, whom I hardly knew before she past. Most of my grandparents passed away long before I was born. I've also heard stories that made it seem like they're PDs[they were abusive to my PDparents...], so I don't feel like I missed anything, nor do I care if I have grandparents or not.

[bloomie]

Call Me Cordelia - how frustrating this revelation has to be. And validating as well.

I am wondering, once you are past the grrrrr of being cast as the bad guy and your parents the good guy because they couldn't be bothered to actually engage with the kids, is it helpful to ask some questions? Like who are special people? And talk about how you, as parents, determine opportunity for other adults to draw close enough to form significant relationships with your children.

One aspect of that could be that your son may be old enough to understand that if another adult - any adult, but especially one who would by family relation be in a position of trust with your kids, mistreats you and your DH - even if they treat the kids okay, they are not safe people to be around and lose their privileges and access to your family.

No one ever taught me what love really looks like. That to limit those who mistreat us is actually love for ourselves and others and offers the best possibility to maintain connection with each other. When people like your parents refuse to adjust their hurtful behaviors we step back to a safe distance. That is healthy. That is loving protection over your entire family of choice.

It seems like your very smart son realizes this is a hot topic. May be time to diffuse the mystery and energy around all of this.

Could not second more strongly BeffudledClarity's thoughts about not having grandparents. I didn't have them either. But, I did have loving adults from our community that were 'special' people to me and for which I am most grateful.

[Liketheducks]

My son totally remember before NC.    My dad was really VLC.  My mom was in another state.  My husband's family is out of the country....so my son didn't really have an expectation of how grandparents worked in close relationship with grandchildren.      He knew when we visited my mom, she spoiled him a bit.   That was fine with me.   Then my mom lived with us for a time.   My son saw that suddenly her relationship with him revolved around conflict with me or other family members.   He was 10 ish then and could totally see it.   She would give him the silent treatment.   I made a lot of effort to say, hey....it isn't you.   Everyone has bad days.    I didn't malign her to him.   My dad just wasn't in the picture.   

The thing is, my son saw how my mom behaved.    I was worried that when they were together that she would somehow malign me to him.   Being HIS safe space was/is my joy and my job.    He has a limited relationship with both of my parents.   He knows I come from a rather dysfunctional family.       

I believe it might take time, but the truth always comes out.

[donutmoonpanda]

I think it's normal at that age to feel some kind of loss at not having those grandparents around, or not getting to make the decision to see the grandparents themselves. Around age 12 they're exploring identity and roles, exploring their own values and beliefs, and comparing themselves to others a lot. Shoving it in your face is kind of like complaining that, "Well you made this big decision for us and didn't give us a choice." But that's what parents do and those decisions keep us safe. They're probably looking for some independence they really haven't earned yet. I bet when they're a little older and more independent, they're not going to be thinking about those grandparents though. Their social lives will be full of friends and activities that they care deeply about.

[JenniferSmith]

We use NC as a strategy to cope with family dynamics that we feel we can't deal with any other way.  But NC is not a happy choice or a choice based on joy and contentment. Its a last resort, and a reflection of deep wounds and broken bonds in a family.  Unfortunately, NC does not entirely shield the next generation from these multi-generational family patterns. It shifts them into a diluted but still troubled form. I think that is what you're up against here. 

You have a direct, lived experience of your parents and their dysfunctional ways, but your kids haven't, so anything you say is going to be rather abstract to them.  Its a very tough situation for everyone involved.  The other challenge is that when they do get older, they may choose to seek out contact with them. They might want to have a relationship with them.  Maybe there are some parallels to when parents divorce - where ideally neither parent speaks poorly of the other and as the child grows, they come to have their own experience with each parent and ultimately forms their own opinion about each.

As someone who has been NC for a very long, but without kids, I've come to see NC as a solution to one set of problems while it creates a different set as well.

Hopefully some other parents can chime in with good advice.

[Leonor]

Hi Cordelia,

It's ok.

We've all been there.

It's the very strength of your healthy boundaries that's allowed your beloved babies to not have had those traumatic, abusive experiences with your parents.

And it's not that they miss Great Aunt Twice Removed Bertha so much. She's not "special" in their lives. It's more likely that their friends have birthdays or holidays or other "special" occasions, and their relatives are there to celebrate with them. The relatives are the people that show up for special events. Ergo - relatives are special!

Our family is part of a larger culture where your family can take up an entire city block and that's where they all probably live, too. My middle son misses not having a gazillion awesome (but totally imaginary) cousins to hang with. My oldest grieves his beloved (and deeply, frighteningly covert narc) grandpa who passed. My little one worries about his (hermit bpd) grandma. It doesn't help that dh is solid in his boundaries but also grieving his own losses. In so many ways, it's easier being the disowned daughter. There's no thicket of memories and heartstrings and fantasies surrounding my mom for them.

It's also really easy to get drawn into a proxy fight you don't even know you're having. If your child says something that trips an emotional wire that you know was laid down by your parents, and that wire reverberates so strongly that you feel irritable or upset or hurt by your child, you're in a proxy battle. If you're wondering how to explain or convince or make your child understand why you're not the bad guy, you're in a proxy war. And if you're  noticing yourself get upset thinking about how your children might connect with their grandparents and have a "nice" relationship with them in which you're the Odd Mom Out, you're in a proxy war.

As long as you're in a mindset of "good guy," "nice mom," or "misunderstood martyr," you're in a proxy war that your nutjob parents are winning because that's the game they want you to play. Of course they're not interested in your kids! They're trying to use your kids to get to you! But if you try to make your kids understand that ... proxy war. With your kids in the middle.

Over the years I've just learned to nod and smile. You had a nice visit with nonna? I'm glad. You miss nonno? Oh, I'm sorry sweetheart, it is hard when someone we love passed on. Yeah, it would be cool to have lots of cousins and relatives running around! When you grow up you can have lots of kids and you'll be a great dad and I'll love every one of them!

I've also come to frame the dysfunction in terms of illness rather than abuse. Like, well, auntie Bertha has depression sometimes, do you know what that is? It's when you feel really really sad and tired, and you don't have the energy to do very much. We'll reschedule a visit when she's feeling up to it. Then as they get older I talk to them a little bit more about chemical imbalances and stuff. And I let them know that I support them in loving their relatives and having the relationship with their relatives they want.

Which is about five minutes to say hello and then go off on their phones or with friends or whatever. Because if there's drama it's exciting, but if it's not, then it's just old people.

Then I go home and yell and cry and beat up on an old plow and maybe, you know, get into an argument with dh or come here and write loooong posts, cause I'm human too.

Oh and I listen to Ilanya Vanzant's YouTube videos. When she talks about how she was raised by people "crazy as hell" I laugh and then just feel so much more recentered!



Take good and gentle care of you.

[Jolie40]

Call Me Cordelia

when I went NC, told husband & child that they could still contact/call  grandma if they wanted

my kid was hurt by the lack of interest the grandparents had towards our child (I was SG)

our child was often ignored & grandma made excuses to miss several of our child's birthdays but never missed other grandkid birthdays

my kid often witnessed the special treatment of cousins when at grandparent's house
PD parent would buy all these treats (special foods) & give them to the cousins in front of our kid

so I can totally understand my kid saying "no" when I asked about calling grandma
but I still felt child should have the choice

[Leonor]

Ooh, I just reread my post and wanted to clarify something:

I don't let them have the relationship they want. I let them have 5-15 minute visits once a month or less in a park with my dh supervising. Period.

Truth is, they're not even all that interested in those.

I should have written, "I let them have the feelings they want."

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi everyone. I've been away for a long time, but I have read and truly appreciate all of your caring and thoughtful responses! In fact, we've been on a long vacation with some of our very "special" friends.

This really rings true:

Shoving it in your face is kind of like complaining that, "Well you made this big decision for us and didn't give us a choice." But that's what parents do and those decisions keep us safe. They're probably looking for some independence they really haven't earned yet.

I have heard that one from my other child. How it wasn't fair and they should see them if they want to. That may work in some situations. However for us absolutely not. My father tried to recruit people close to us to engineer seeing my children without me present exactly so he could find/manufacture "evidence" of my having abused them he could use against me with the authorities. He needed current stuff because he hadn't seen them in several months at that point and had no case. Still wouldn't, really, but he could have caused great harm for us. And the rest of my family denied and tried to rugsweep and protect everyone except my kids and me. So as long as we have a child under 18, my FOO does not see the kids. Period.

I haven't explained that facet of NC to them. I feel it's beyond them still.

And yes, Leonor, absolutely right about the pattern of not caring about the kids and just using them to get to me! Interesting thoughts about the proxy war. Usually I do respond to grief over grandparents in a validating but still kind of MC way. I absolutely agree they can have whatever feelings they have, even if they are hard for me to see and I'm going to have my own meta-feelings about that. This was a bit of a different flavor, and could have become a proxy war because my son was deliberately trying to get what he wanted using my known sore point. And did, I suppose, because I argued back about the grandparents' behavior. Whomp whomp.

Jennifer, I think you're right that I can't 100% shield them from the harm and the trauma does pass down in diluted form. Of course it must, unless I were perfectly healed and of course there is no such thing. All I can do is the best I can. I hope and pray that it's "good enough" and the Lord covers my deficiencies. Truly I look forward to them being adults and we can address all of this as equals. NC does bring a different set of problems, but still is much better than the alternative!