Why shouldn't we label their behaviour as abusive if that's what it is?

[rockandhardplace]

I think the more I try and understand this stuff and plan for how to deal with it the more confused I get. Being constantly belittled, criticised, mocked, put down etc is all emotional abuse. Name calling and yelling are verbal abuse. Where do character attacks fit in? What about yelling an inch from my face? Following me into rooms? This is all abusive behaviour, why can't we call it what it is?? I know it doesn't change it, but calling out signifies that I know what it is. And when it happens in front of children, why shouldn't I explain to them that their father's behaviour is abuse? How can the only response to abusive behaviours be for me to have to leave the room / house?? How does responding with a MC of "I'm sorry you feel that way" to being called a lazy C@$^ work?? Or even to being projected at and told "you always blame everyone else, it's always someone else fault". Doesn't MC or just walking away allow them to discharge their negativity onto us? And if kids witness this don't they just hear the projection and the non-PD not correcting it?

[Rose1]

That is a good point. It took me a long time to use the abuse word. No idea why.

I noticed though that exbpdh was trying to wind me up and that if I responded in any way I either got the smirk (that made me angry), the argument (made me angry), the justification etc., You get the picture. It was designed to get a reaction.

Yes I think calling out the behaviour is justified. I just think it makes it worse.

Remember the expression "the opposite of love is indifference"? Exbpdh knew that expression quite well and I sometimes think he might have been trying to see if I still loved him, for even years later, after all his bad behaviour on leaving, he tried the reconcile hoover. Years of indifference have meant he left me alone. Still bad mouthed me to anyone who would listen but that group has dwindled to almost nothing now.

Some years after he left when he was still playing his verbal games with my oldest d I heard her say "if you keep doing this I'm going to call an ambulance because you need more help than I can give" in response to a suicide threat. Exactly the same words I used years before. The kids listen and learn. Perhaps explaining the concept might help? Ie it is abusive but the best way to defuse it is mc?

My oldest would have got it straight away, except we didn't know about it back then. The kids need strategies for dealing with pd. Likely they will be needing them longer than we will.

[escapingman]

I understand exactly where you are coming from and why. The problem is, I have fallen for it many times, is by calling them out for the abuse and call them abusers is loading their gun with mirroring this and calling us what we called them. I have got it back in my face many times for when I used to argue back and call uNPDx for what she is. Another problem is that is ALWAYS escalates the situation, and with children it is easy to seen as the perpetrator as they don't really know any difference. The best you can do is to disengage as soon as he starts any abuse, record it, then report it.

Good luck, I know how you feel. I was where you are not long ago.

[square]

You're JUSTIFIED in doing so. Absolutely.

But, if you have explained and explained and explained and explained and asked and asked and asked and asked and they don't stop?

Clearly they feel JUST FINE abusing you. Telling them they are abusing you is simply telling them what's working!

Even worse? You give them a ready made framework to increase their abuse by telling you how YOU are abusive.

You give them a framework to tell OTHERS how you are abusive. "She gaslights me, name calls, DARVOs."

You've tried. You've tried and tried and tried and tried. The problem isn't that he doesn't realize he is abusing you.

When someone is okay withabusing us, our choices are limited. Since asking them to stop and trying to resolve it are fruitless, we can either try to live with it (MC, GR, noJADE), or leave. That's it. There are no other options because we cannot control another person.

[Starboard Song]

I think saying calling it abuse is quite all right. And I even think it is OK to say "that behavior you saw, yelling in my face like that, is not appropriate."

[escapingman]

I think saying calling it abuse is quite all right. And I even think it is OK to say "that behavior you saw, yelling in my face like that, is not appropriate."

I agree with you starboard,  but if you tell the PD something is not OK you need to follow up with action. If not they happily do it again and again....

[SonofThunder]

My opinion is that JADEing always leads to more of the same experiences.  Imo, JADEing, which is a verbal reaction to both an action and/or reaction (not just verbal reaction to verbal) is a 'fuel' for PD's. 

JADEing may be felt by me as necessary truth, and allow me to blow off steam, but imo it provides PD's the persecutor drama triangle fuel rush they feed on.  For me, it was simply taking the feed away, and eventually the PD fed elsewhere. 

But I must have thick skin to live in the Devaluation and Discard of the IDD cycle.  Me personally, i prefer to call out PD behaviors to those who can empathize here at Out of the FOG vs tell the thief of peace that they are stealing.  They already know, so my recognition is simply a JADEing trophy for their mantle. 🏆

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

Rock, of course you are free to do whatever you wish to do. If you want to engage and have the full drama, go for it. You already know how that ends, but sometimes one needs more confirmation in order to believe it.

You wrote "Doesn't MC or just walking away allow them to discharge their negativity onto us? " The negativity is discharged onto you anyway. If you walk away you are not taking it in. You are protecting yourself. Many people here have found this to be better for themselves. If another way works better for you, I for one would be happy to learn about it.

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks for the replies, a lot for me to think through.

I think what's happening for me is I'm trying to find a way to recover myself after years of insidious emotional abuse and now it seems the more I grey rock the more verbal abuse I get. I rarely find myself actually trying to explain or defend myself now. But that doesn't stop his abuse. I do feel like I want to correct his lies when it's in writing tho for the record, but I'm getting better at not engaging emotionally, not taking the bait. We still live together and to the outside world and our own children we are still together, but in nearly 4 years we haven't spoken to each other except for minor necessary things regarding the kids. And him yelling abuse. The more independent I get and the more I gray rock the more creative he is getting with ways to attack me. We've both been working from home for 2 years - me studying. I set up a desk away from the kitchen so I wouldn't have to see him during the day. He started doing laundry. I was a stay home mom for 11 years and he only ever washed his own work shirts, but now he starts doing laundry. This involves him coming down to where I'm sitting. He walks past me and makes this huffing / hiss sound of disapproval because he's doing housework and I'm just "sitting around" -  I know this is his narrative as at my most stressed out time with kids home schooled and trying to fit in a masters degree he started yelling that I was lazy. I ignore the hiss/huffing but it has that visceral reaction inside as that kind of mood is the build up of his abuse cycle. Anyways, about a week ago he started clearing out a cupboard that he had literally never opened in more than a decade of living here. Then as he goes upstairs he does his huffy disapproval, but this time I hiss back. It felt good. A few days later he tries to bait me in an email and I don't bite. So he withholds information that I need and starts yelling abuse while I'm making my older child dinner. Not sure I know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm rerunning episodes , thinking of how I could've avoided copping it again. I told him he was being abusive and I wouldn't stay while he was but I needed to make her dinner. He leaves but starts up when she's in the shower, again with the same thing and I decide rather than have to run to my room again I would record his bull. And yes he then calls me abusive and a sociopath, but I have a record of him answering my questions about what makes me abusive and it's literally mental. I'm a sociopath for going back to uni after years as sahm. And I'm exploiting him because he wants to revise our whole history. There's no room to JADE as I'm generally not allowed to speak. And honestly I don't think I could even MC! Actually I guess when I analyse what makes me want to keep calling it out is that I want to call it out when the kids are around. Although I don't know if they even know what abusive means or care. Tonight exGC was telling off exSG who is now kind of GC not to steal her jokes as he tries to use the same mean tease to his younger sister as she did to him. I suggest maybe he could stop this cycle of insulting siblings and lets all try and be more respectful and kind to each other. GC says respect is boring. UPDh agrees. He wants them growing up to be as mean and cruel and controlling as he is.
I guess overall I'm feeling so hopeless and frustrated that he is never ever held accountable for his behaviour. I want my kids to know his behaviour is wrong. I don't know that running to my room whenever he kicks off is helping them to see that. He's taught them to look down on me so they all just get on with their evenings together without me when that happens. When I started to recognise what was happening at home was getting this weird feeling like I'm a stranger in my own family. Or more accurately like I was being pushed out of my own family. He was punishing me for going ahead with our unplanned pregnancy. But I guess having to run off to my room to be out of the firing line just feels like he keeps having control and that's all the kids see, him in control and look up to that.

[1footouttadefog]

At some point I started calling it all out. 

Me:Why am I being yelled at, I don't deserve to be screamed and yelled at stop or I am leaving.

Him: Well, this that or the other.

Me:If you had a disagreement at work you would not treat a boss or coworker this way.  Why don't you give me the same treatment as them what did I do to deserve this?

Him:well you did it said or I don't agree with....

Me:why can't we discuss it civilly why are you choosing to treat me this way and scream and scare your own kids.  What did they do to be made afraid.

Him: you did it said not or I am mad about.....

ME:this is our home also and we deserve to be at peace and to be treated as well as you treat others.  Come back to talk when you are able to talk decently.  If not I will leave with the kids. 


Putting this pressure on and refusing to engage while he was raging did help.   Amazingly it caused him to start revealing his hidden ouchies.  Example, What pissed me off was.....

It would show how something trivial had triggered him over another unrelated to us topic but it all connected in his head. 

I would then state out loud, so you were reminded of being insulted 4 years ago and it makes you angry so you assumed we were insulting you know and then out us all through the ringer because you felt bad? 

It would super much hurt to hear him say yeah something like that I guess. 

[square]

You're dealing with an extremely predatory person, rock, and that has got to be incredibly hard. I am not - my His reactive, and though conflict is not always avoidable, he is not employing this campaign to destroy me like you are enduring.

Even so, sometimes I don't keep MC/GR, and I don't always regret it either. I do not wish to be a doormat, either.

Yours is very predatory, but does he somewhat back down when you push back? I'm not sure but you describe that he might go away for a little while when you push back, is that true? I do see he does come back for more but he may temporarily step back.

He seems to want to dominate and destroy you, and he is very invested in your engagement. One consideration is MAYBE there will be a prolonged extinction burst where he tries very hard to keep your engagement and maybe eventually he will have to find a new primary source.

The problem with the children is very serious and I have no ideas on that. They are clearly being trained to see the world through his eyes and he apparently has them on board.

I do personally feel from experience that labelling behavior gets weaponized. I mean labels like "abuse," "gaslighting," "DARVO," "personality disorder," etc. I do not consider it labelling to state things like "I'm not okay with being called names," "I did exactly what you asked me to do," or "this conversation is not productive, I'm leaving."

Your husband  apparently wants to dominate and win, and he needs you to play the game in order to do so. How can you opt out of the game?

[1footouttadefog]

 

I agree the terms and jargon will work against you.  State your truth and set boundaries to the extent it is safe.

If it's not safe then huge red flag about staying and keeping the kids in the situation.

[rockandhardplace]

Square you have totally described him and his intentions. He NEEDS to dominate at home and he absolutely hates more than anything to see me independent / content/ happy in any way. Before I knew anything about PD's I would challenge him...  "you are showing me such utter contempt, you clearly hate me, so whey haven't you left". This happens by text, in person I would never get that many words out. His response was "if i'm so nasty and controlling why haven't you left" My answer at the time was that I'd stayed because I'd loved him and our family. His response was to say that was BS because if I'd loved him I would've listened to him. I think this gets to what 1foot was saying about the feelings behind the rage. When I asked him what I'd not listened to him about he rattles off a bunch of times where we had different perspectives on things. He even said something like "I try and tell you that what you're complaining about isn't as hard as you think". I had already recognised that he would get angry when I wouldn't agree to feel the way he told me I felt about something. And when I talk about different ways of seeing or feeling things I'm talking about him telling me I overreacted to having cancer as "it was never a serious cancer" or telling me I wasn't having migraines I was anxious, despite having visual auras and being diagnosed by a neurologist. Or saying our 10 year old shaking a knife at me was "normal kid behaviour".
This was very revealing to me. Love to him is having someone cater to his needs, someone who will take his perspective always, someone without a mind or heart of their own. It explained so much. Him yelling that I'm not listening while I try and explain I am listening I can repeat everything you've said I just don't agree. The last few years have been a cycle of him building up to raging and then me afterwards saying living like this is bad for me and the kids why haven't you left if you hate me so much? what do you want to do? He always responds with some nasty character attack. Always evades. First he couldn't afford to leave (lie), then once he admitted he thinks kids should live with both parents no matter what, now we're back to the financial barriers. But it's not like there's anything civil between us inbetween. He doesn't even try to act normal around me. I have to endure family dinners every night and it can be silence or him talking about politics or sport to the kids. When I'm talking to them he will interrupt and talk over me. Well it depends on the stage of the cycle. Sometimes he says nothing and starts a new conversation, sometimes he will roll his eyes to the kids, sometimes he will rage. We had a few days apart recently. I took our eldest away for a competition. It was bliss. And I stupidly thought I wonder is he realising how much nicer it is for him too to not have me around. I didn't say this but after the recent rage I again asked what he wanted to do. I used the S word this time. He says separation won't work because I'm not normal, but sociopaths aren't normal they don't see the damage they do despite all the evidence. That projection scared the living crap out of me. I oscillate between feeling like I will literally die if I stay living like this any longer to abject fear of what someone who thinks like that would do to us if I initiate the separation.
Anyways, these messages are super helpful, I really appreciate all the replies. I should say I don't label him - I think once I called him a narcissist in the heat of the moment. Actually maybe I muttered you're a psychopath under my breath once too. I have suggested he see a psychologist to talk about why he's so angry. But yes he has tried to weaponise all this against me. I think I need to find a psychologist who specialises in this who can advise me on how to approach things with the kids. I feel it would be easier to talk to them about his behaviour if we were separated. Just in terms of helping them to understand that some people say horrible things that are untrue when they are angry. But he's so domineering I fear he will completely alienate them from me and then my poor kiddies will grow up thinking their mum was bad and that he's disordered way of seeing the world is normal. or he'll murder us all or just me.

[square]

Hugs. I hope you find your way to something better. In the meantime, you are clearly very resilient. You've kept your own mind. Keep doing that, even though you maybe might be better off not displaying as such to your husband.

Were you scared about the sociopath thing because you thought it might mean he could do something terribly violent if he was a sociopath? If so, I would say that it would be other things to look out for. He may fit the profile for antisocial personality, or possibly a narcissist with some antisocial traits, I don't know. Antisocials are not necessarily violent. Just saying you're a sociopath doesn't necessarily mean anything other than him turning your pyschopath accusation around on you. The indicators for violence are, well, violence - physucal abuse, animal abuse, graphic and/or specific
threats, etc. If this is part of your experience, I would recommend you reach out to DV help.

[guitarman]

**** Trigger Warning ****
You are not alone.

I have an uBPD/NPD sister.

I call her my abuser and I am her target of abuse. That has redefined our relationship.

For years I would forgive and excuse her behaviour as her having serious mental health issues. She would frequently loudly threaten suicide, along with all the shouting, screaming and swearing.

Then it was pointed out to me that her behaviour was abuse. I didn't know. I didn't realise that it was abuse. I just thought that I had to accept it which I had been doing for decades.

I don't do "idiot compassion" any more, where I am the idiot.

I've not had any contact with her for over two years. I never want to see her ever again. She's never going to change.

I have learnt not to feed her narcissistic supply. I stay calm no matter what happens. I can get provoked into anger which is what my sister wants.

The narcissist hates to be ignored. Sometimes the best way to cope with narcissistic rage is with calmness and indifference. Show them that their behaviour is unacceptable. Set firm boundaries and stick with them.

We need to work on building our self esteem.

You may like to follow the author and counsellor Kris Godinez. Her YouTube channel is called "We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez".

She specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome and shows how targets of abuse can cope better. I have learnt such a lot from her. I make sure to watch her YouTube videos regularly. They keep me on track and keep me sticking to my firm boundaries.

Abusers are all about power and control.

"Abuse thrives in the darkness. We all need to help shine a light on it wherever it occurs."

Observe, don't absorb.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[Starboard Song]

 

And those warnings above apply equally well to all personality disorders, not just NPD.

[NarcKiddo]

Rock,
I have often struggled with what you are struggling with. Part of the problem is, we want to feel like we are dealing with a rational person, but we are not.

Have you watched Dr. Ramani on YouTube? I think I have recommended her videos to you elsewhere. She is absolutely brilliant, here are 3 videos on the topic of "calling out Narcissists on their behavior." I strongly encourage you to watch these, it might give you some food for thought...

Why you SHOULD NEVER call narcissists out
6 alternatives to calling out the narcissist
5 things that happen when you call out a narcissist

I am so thankful for Dr. Ramani, Dr. Les Carter, and others on YT...they have put words to my frustrations and provided me much clarity.

THANK YOU! I am really impressed with Dr Ramani. Will certainly be watching more. She's just so practical.