Confronting NPD mom

[KatKp29]

Well it's been a blissfull 3 months of zero contact with my NPD MIL but the time is approaching where my husband and his brothers think they need to "confront" her so to speak and let her know the reason we haven't been talking to them.
She crossed a few boundaries(as expected) but overall she has mostly respected our wishes for the last 3 months.
Basically my husband wants all of us to basically have an intervention style meeting where we tell her all of her problems, tell her she's a narcissist(she'll never believe it) and just basically let her know the reasons we don't want to be around her. I tried to convince him that we should just not speak to her until we feel comfortable but he said it bothers him that she doesn't know WHY we're ignoring her and his GC brother agrees.
Truthfully, most of us are very skeptical that this will do any good and we know she will never change but if it makes my husband and his brothers feel better than I'm willing to do it.
Does anyone have any experience with these kinds of things? Any tips? The plan is to have a meeting with her and my flying monkey FIL but then after the meeting tell them we are going back to zero/minimal contact until we are ready to do otherwise.
Any feedback would be appreciated! How does one confront someone who NEVER does anything wrong and how do we combat the crying/emotional manipulation that we're sure she's going to use on us?
Thanks!

[NarcKiddo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNf0YqM8lU

I find Dr Ramani's videos very helpful and she has quite a few on calling out a narcissist (and why not do do it). The above, for instance.

And here is one on alternatives to calling them out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nffO-KJicQw

[sunshine702]

You might want to explain that normal people want to know why they are being ghosted but deeply insecure people (for normies I use this term) they tend to lash out very vindictively.  Something like— That makes us very unsafe.  What if she starts a smear campaign? Takes it out on so and so?  Wouldn't it be safer to just let things be?

The experts don't really recommend that. It just makes you scapegoat du jour.  And the level that you let them know the mask has slipped is the level of revenge they will try to inflict to ease their cognitive dissonance.

[Cat of the Canals]

Can you opt out of this meeting? I mean, if your husband and his brothers feel the need to do it, fine. They are adults. But it's not going to be pretty.

I've never confronted my PDmom, but I witnessed my husband confronting his. It wasn't intentional... she kind of pushed him into it. And she did exactly what everyone says they do. She insisted he was only saying these things to hurt her. Lots of waify crying. The second he would ease up and try to comfort her, she would go on the attack. It went on and on and on. For probably over an hour. And the whole time I was sitting there thinking, "JUST HANG UP THE PHONE!!!!"

He got no where. At the end of the call she said she "wanted nothing from him" and made other statements that suggested the relationship was over, then said, "I have to go, we'll talk more later." 

The next day she texted a classic PD fauxpology and since then has carried on as if none of it had happened. That was over a year ago. Nothing has changed with her, but my husband definitely has quite a bit more clarity in terms of this being a broken, unfixable relationship.

If this is about them getting to say their piece, I'd suggest writing down what they want to say, because it's probably going to devolve quickly. Go in expecting one giant circular conversation. Have an exit strategy or it will likely go on forever with zero progress.

If you go, perhaps you can try to be there as an observer more than a participant so that when the times comes, you can be the one to take your husband by the hand and say, "You've said what you came to say, I think it's time for us to leave."

[KatKp29]

Thanks for the replies everyone!
We actually have watched a few of the Dr.Ramani videos and they are helpful...but it's always helpful to hear from those who have experienced first-hand as well!

Cat of the Canals- I did everything I could to convince them not to do this "meeting" but my husband(already the scapegoat) and his other brother(GC) are determined to do it. The two younger brothers think it is totally a waste of time but are willing to participate. The boys believe that the relationship can be improved or at least give the facade of improving I really don't think that's going to happen. Also, I've thought of the whole smear campaign but she keeps up this facade of the "perfect family" so the boys think she will hesitate to ruin that image. Also, since its all of her children confronting her it'll be kinda hard for her to explain to everyone why all 4 of them are the problem and not her. That's how my husband sees it. They don't think she'll get angry at all...just be a blubbering mess, crying and guilt-tripping and using her previous cancer diagnosis to make them feel bad. I honestly don't know what to expect. I'm mostly gonna be there for moral support although there is a TON I'd love to say to her face. They are planning to make notes/an outline.

I guess the issue is they are a bit in denial of just how bad she is. It's their mother, I understand. She's not my mother therefore I don't have that bias of giving her benefit of the doubt. I have no clue what to expect. She never gets called out on any of her crap. I will say she's more pathetic and emotionally manipulative than vindictive...but she does have a nasty side as well.
Don't think there really is an easy way to do this. As bad as it is to say, maybe they see to see themselves what she's really like...

[Cat of the Canals]

Sometimes this is the exact kind of wake-up call it takes for people to really see the depth of the dysfunction. It's often important for people to feel like they "tried everything." So it's probably going to be very ugly, and there's almost no chance she'll take any of it to heart... but hopefully it will bring them another step Out of the FOG.

My brother and SIL have been very reluctant to really come to terms with my PDmom's dysfunction. A whole lot of "she's not SO bad..." over the years. Periodically they have come face to face with her absolute refusal to listen or change or be accountable, and every time it's that much harder for them to retreat back to "she's not so bad/maybe she'll change..."

[KatKp29]

Sometimes this is the exact kind of wake-up call it takes for people to really see the depth of the dysfunction. It's often important for people to feel like they "tried everything." So it's probably going to be very ugly, and there's almost no chance she'll take any of it to heart... but hopefully it will bring them another step Out of the FOG.

My brother and SIL have been very reluctant to really come to terms with my PDmom's dysfunction. A whole lot of "she's not SO bad..." over the years. Periodically they have come face to face with her absolute refusal to listen or change or be accountable, and every time it's that much harder for them to retreat back to "she's not so bad/maybe she'll change..."

This is exactly what I'm hoping will happen. They truly see just how awful she is. Although my husband wants there to be a change he is very adamant that we won't tolerate her just going on the offense against all of us.We have a couple emergency plans just incase she does go nuclear, but I think it's gonna be like you said. Either 1. A circular convo that goes nowhere. 2. Her pretending to take it to heart and then reverting right back to herself.
Also, she tends to use my FIL as her enforcer so we have a feeling she'll take the crying route and he'll be the angry/confrontational one. Like a good cop/bad cop kinda thing.
We're still a few weeks away from doing this but trying to put together a plan/strategy of how to approach this. My husband says if she gets angry/nasty we all stand up and leave etc stuff like that.
I guess we will see...

[NarcKiddo]

...
Also, she tends to use my FIL as her enforcer so we have a feeling she'll take the crying route and he'll be the angry/confrontational one. Like a good cop/bad cop kinda thing.
We're still a few weeks away from doing this but trying to put together a plan/strategy of how to approach this. My husband says if she gets angry/nasty we all stand up and leave etc stuff like that.
I guess we will see...

I think you and your husband might be wise to have an agreement as a couple on what you will do if xyz. It's not a bad idea in theory to have a group agreement about what will trigger standing up and leaving but if she is anything like my mother she will be VERY skilful at divide and conquer. If all the siblings have agreed they will act in unison there is a big problem if it all breaks down in the heat of the moment. Each sibling will have their own ideas about what they want to achieve from the meeting and one big risk is that she manages to break the current sibling unity.

There have been very rare attempts to call out my mother over the years, and those were only for pretty minor things. None has gone particularly well.  The mildest was one time she got drunk at a family gathering and told me when and how my husband and I should take our holidays from work and I told her she was overstepping the mark. She had the screaming ab dabs and went home in a huff. The next day she wrote me a very insincere letter of apology. Anything that remotely hints at character deficiencies of hers results in far worse tantrums.

[JustKathy]

I've never confronted my PDmom, but I witnessed my husband confronting his. It wasn't intentional... she kind of pushed him into it. And she did exactly what everyone says they do. She insisted he was only saying these things to hurt her. Lots of waify crying. The second he would ease up and try to comfort her, she would go on the attack. It went on and on and on. For probably over an hour. And the whole time I was sitting there thinking, "JUST HANG UP THE PHONE!!!!"

That's how I ended up going NC with my mother. I hadn't planned on it but she pushed things too far by sabotaging a job interview when I was in desperate need of work. I was on the phone with her and she actually boasted about having done this. This was my final straw moment and I let her know it. I never specifically called her a narcissist, just called her out on her bad behavior.

She screamed for what felt like an eternity, then went infantile and cried, then started attacking me for things I had done to hurt her when I was a little kid. She brought up stuff from kindergarten, high school, you name it (and I was almost 50 at the time). When screaming and vilifying me didn't work, she put the phone down and started calling out to my father to come and save her from me. At that point, I hung up the phone. Never spoke to her again. It was THAT bad. I had never planned on going NC but in that moment I realized she was a complete psycho and it was just OVER.

[KatKp29]

...

I think you and your husband might be wise to have an agreement as a couple on what you will do if xyz. It's not a bad idea in theory to have a group agreement about what will trigger standing up and leaving but if she is anything like my mother she will be VERY skilful at divide and conquer. If all the siblings have agreed they will act in unison there is a big problem if it all breaks down in the heat of the moment. Each sibling will have their own ideas about what they want to achieve from the meeting and one big risk is that she manages to break the current sibling unity.

There have been very rare attempts to call out my mother over the years, and those were only for pretty minor things. None has gone particularly well.  The mildest was one time she got drunk at a family gathering and told me when and how my husband and I should take our holidays from work and I told her she was overstepping the mark. She had the screaming ab dabs and went home in a huff. The next day she wrote me a very insincere letter of apology. Anything that remotely hints at character deficiencies of hers results in far worse tantrums.

This has been our strongest advantage right now is that all 4 of the brothers are sick of her. I'm sick of her. GC's girlfriend is sick of her. I think it would be extremely difficult for her to cause a rift between them because they've all been silently mocking her/complaining about her amongst themselves for so long. My husband says as soon as she personally starts going after any of us, we get up and walk out(don't think the meeting will last long if that's the case).
About the character flaws leading to tantrums...my MIL is exactly the same. She is so hyper sensitive to ANYTHING even remotely negative about her..it doesn't even have to be criticism. My BIL said she made some really dry chicken a week or so ago and he just said "mom this chicken is really dry I can't eat it" and she got so upset and hurt and started making excuses "well..I just left it in too long, it normally comes out fine, I'm so sorry you didn't like it I try to do nice things for you boys and make sure you like everything I make" . And then FIL comes swooping in saying "well I thought it was very good!" Blah blah blah. BIL said it wasn't even that big of a deal he would've just eaten something else. She kept coming into his room and apologizing and reassuring him that she goes "out of her way" to make everything special for them. She is the most insecure woman I have ever had the displeasure of knowing.

[KatKp29]

That's how I ended up going NC with my mother. I hadn't planned on it but she pushed things too far by sabotaging a job interview when I was in desperate need of work. I was on the phone with her and she actually boasted about having done this. This was my final straw moment and I let her know it. I never specifically called her a narcissist, just called her out on her bad behavior.

She screamed for what felt like an eternity, then went infantile and cried, then started attacking me for things I had done to hurt her when I was a little kid. She brought up stuff from kindergarten, high school, you name it (and I was almost 50 at the time). When screaming and vilifying me didn't work, she put the phone down and started calling out to my father to come and save her from me. At that point, I hung up the phone. Never spoke to her again. It was THAT bad. I had never planned on going NC but in that moment I realized she was a complete psycho and it was just OVER.

Omg! I am so sorry that happened to you! The concept of a mother sabotaging her own child just makes me feel sick!
My MIL is very interesting in that she is not overtly menacing or nasty. She is a very good pretender. She can come across as the sweetest person ever. I couldn't see her sabotaging her boys because as my husband likes to say she uses them for "clout" . She uses their accomplishments to stand in for her own lack thereof. It could just be perhaps she hasn't had a reason to do that yet. Who knows? But, she is so subtle about the abuse sometimes it makes it difficult to call out. She shrouds everything in the "caring" mentality. "Oh I'm overbearing because I just love you boys so much" "Oh, I just want you to succeed so I push you that much harder"

The phone argument with your mom sounds very similar to how I think our convo with her will go. Lots of crying and guilt-tripping. Bringing up things they did as children as if that's their fault. She also does this thing where she acts like she deserves a medal for doing things that a mother is supposed to do. Like she'll say "I have loved you boys from the moment you were born" "I have taken care of you your whole lives" YES LADY there are millions of mothers out there who do that every single day too..you aren't as special as you think you are. Ughh..She is the queen of the pity party. Also, the thing about calling your father to help her we know for a fact will happen. My FIL is her lapdog and will defend her no matter how bad her behavior is. We're thinking of asking him to leave the meeting during certain parts so we can confront her directly. If he refuses, we leave. I think one day she's gonna push too far and my husband will truly be done. I think he's expecting this at some point too. We just haven't seen the REAL her yet.