Empathy vs. Compassion, Paul Bloom's argument 'against empathy'

[treesgrowslowly]

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/05/conversation-bloom

This was a book that was published several years ago.

I've been reflecting on the role I played in my FOO, and the empathy that I had, from an early age - being able to feel what other people are feeling.

I think there is something to this argument from Paul Bloom, about the problems with empathy when it is used to make decisions. I have been thinking about how this argument relates to the PD family.

For example, I can't know what my narc relatives were ever feeling....and there's a lot of research to suggest that they may not be feeling much at all that I would recognize. Mainly the feel entitled. If that is a feeling, it could be more of a belief system than an emotional state. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/spycatcher/201410/12-things-narcissists-think?tr=MostViewed

Had I tried to feel my way through the FOO drama before I went NC, my own empathy would be used against me, as described by Bloom. I think that Narcs do that - they use our empathy against us.

I do think that one of the things that warped me for many years, was that I ASSUMED that a lot of my FOO had compassion for me. Getting Out of the FOG, of course I know that you need to call a spade a spade. Had there been some compassion, there would have been evidence of it....it is not like I visited these people once and then went and lived my own life. I spent years with them, and cannot recall moments of compassion. Being clear about this seems to be an important part of the recovery process.

I agree with Bloom, we cannot use our empathy to make our decisions about relationships and boundaries. Does feeling empathy lead to feeling obligated? And in PD family....obligated towards people who have no compassion for us? I wonder.

Thoughts?

Trees

[Empie2204]

What I learned about my empathy is that I wasn´t using and treating it well.
I often wondered if it was a gift or a curse and finally decided it was a gift.

I went through a lot of things until I learned to share my empathy with worthy people.
When compared to compassion: I feel deep compassion towards my ex who is a severely damaged person. This compassion is on a human level of being sorry that one human being is not capable of love. I have learned that my compassion stops here, it does not make me want to go back and help him because I know he can´t be helped.

Throughout the years I have given him my empathy but it was useless. For a long time I wrongly believed that all people feel the same as I do. I have learned that it is not so.

PDs probably think the same on their side but they can´t learn something they lack.

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

I'm glad you brought this up.

We hear a lot about empathy and compassion. In my experience empathy can be toxic.  I haven't ever experienced toxic compassion.

I agree that empathy can be problematic when factored into decision making. I've made a lot of decisions because of toxic empathy. And as far back as I can remember I felt, ot at least focussed quite a bit on what other people were feeling, often at a great expense to my self. Lately I think that had to do with experience abuse in the home from a very young age, but it might not be that way for all who have toxic empathy.

This, from the first article you referenced, "4 questions for Paul Bloom" sums it up " Empathy in the sense of "feeling what other people are feeling" is not what you want as a successful therapist. It will hamper you, it will exhaust you. It's probably one of the many reasons I'd be a terrible shrink. If I'm around someone and they're depressed, I get depressed. If they're freaking out, I start to get anxious."

Differentiation is very important and something that many who have had long term exposure PD families have difficultly with. It's an area that I have been working on.

"The 12 things that Narcissists think" accurately describes the attitudes of many in my family, and many others I have been exposed to, unfortunately.

Compassion is definitely not something I would say these individuals think about, except perhaps in a superficially religious context. Certainly they don't behave as if they feel compassion towards others.

You ask:"Does feeling empathy lead to feeling obligated? And in PD family....obligated towards people who have no compassion for us? I wonder."

Yes, absolutely, and it can lead to making decisions that are often not in one's own best interests.

Again, I am glad you raised the discussion, it's something I hope to keep in mind going forward.

[bee well]

p.s. While thinking more about this, the term "idiot compassion" came to mind. This seems like toxic (emotional) empathy. There appears, generally, to be some blurring between empathy and compassion. But what I get out of it is that compassion is generally more cognitive and allows for emotional space...i,e. "I feel for you, (and want to help as much as reasonable and necessary) but I am not consumed by this feeling. My internal boundaries are intact."

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Empee2204 and Beewell,

Wow. Those are really helpful thoughts you've both shared.

Empee I too have felt like my empathy was a curse not a gift! It was hard to understand that for a long time!

Bee well, that is so good to keep in mind what you wrote at the end of your 2nd' post.  "My internal boundaries are intact". This is where I had such trouble myself, because of the way that I was treated in the FOO, early on. I didn't know what that felt like. I had parentals who didn't want their kids to have internal boundaries and we were pushed in all sorts of ways (ways that are familiar to many here, I won't describe in detail how they did that, we all know....).

I feel like I went through a period where a lot of 'pop psychology' books and advice givers, promoted this idea that as long as you assert yourself, and keep your internal boundaries intact, people will respect you and you'll repair your stressful relationships. I own several books that are now dated, where that is pretty much the advice on how to repair relationships. Just be assertive! have boundaries! It will make things better!

Not true with PDs.

I think NOW there is finally more realization that if you use compassion instead of toxic empathy, and you keep your internal boundaries intact, a lot of people will react with "no thank you" to this "new you".

I think that the truth is, when we keep our internal boundaries intact, a lot of the people we know, will not want to deal with us anymore. I lost a lot of people in my life by holding on to my boundaries and shifting from empathy to compassion. They just were not ready for a more honest, mature relationship. In therapist jargon, they didn't want to "take responsibility for their part in an emotionally mature relationship".

Thanks so much for what you shared!! Great insights.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Empee2204 and Trees,

Empee, I too agree that empathy can sometimes feel like a curse. What you said about giving is so important--empathy is a gift and like other valuables, if we don't conserve them there is a risk it will either run out or someone will come in and take it all away and misuse it. Kind of like leaving our house or garage unlocked, or leaving a piece of land without a fence.

It's very true that we cannot always share empathy/compassion directly or freely. With PDs it has to be at a distance, because they don't think like we do.

Trees, those are some excellent points you bring up. Not so long I was reading a self-help book about boundaries. The writer, a therapist,  was essentially saying, just say and do x y and z and boundaries will be in place, problem solved, people will fall in line, you will have a happy chaos free life. As you have pointed out, with PDs it doesn't work that way, (This book was relatively new. and there was only a few pages about trauma and PDs. I have to admit I wondered what planet this therapist is operating on.)

It's especially challeging for those who learn about boundaries after growing up around PDs.

I have noticed that when boundaries go up PDs will usually flip out overtly, push back covertly, or some combination of the above. If we are lucky they will get tired and move on, so we have space to heal. One thing they don't do is change.

As we know, many of us interact with them to some degree, and with quite some frequency. It's hard to stay compassionate in those circumstances but if we are able to be mindful of it and firmly communicate our limits at an appropriate distance than we have a chance of conserving our sanity and dignity without becoming bitter, jaded, or like them in other ways. No small task but it beats the alternative.