Seeing PDmom for first time in 3 years.

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm finally making the trip back to see my family next month. When we first started planning the visit, one of the things that kept my anxiety down was the knowledge that I'd be staying at my brother's house, which would limit the amount of time I'm around my mother. But the only time that worked for everyone's schedule was Labor Day weekend, and my mom had already rented a beach house for the holiday, and so now I'm going to be stuck in a house with my brother's family (yay!) but also my parents (arg!) almost the entire visit.

PDmom will likely be *attempting* to be on her best behavior, but vacations have historically been a powder keg. Too many feelings for her, I guess. enDad is her main scapegoat, and I have no qualms at this point about stating loud and clear that I'm not interested in spending my vacation listening to their bickering. I'm going into this intending to set certain boundaries (something I've rarely done with her), and most of the scenarios I can imagine a fairly straightforward "answer," except for one...

My mother's weapon of choice is the silent treatment. Major pouting with stomping of feet and slamming of doors. If something happens and she breaks out the ST, I'm trying to envision the proper way to set a boundary about it -- mainly that I am not going to accept this kind of behavior and then pretend it didn't happen once she's "over it." This is our family's usual M.O. In fact, I'm fairly certain she's never been called out on it.

The best I've come up with so far is something along the lines of asking her outright: Is something wrong? She'll deny it, naturally. And then saying, "Well, you're certainly acting like something is bothering you, and I'm willing to talk about it. What I'm not willing to do is ignore this passive aggressive behavior for the next several days and then pretend it never happened once you're over it."

[Cat of the Canals]

Oops... just realized I posted this in Common Behaviors instead of the Dealing with PD Parents board! 

[bee well]

Hi Cat of the Canals,

Your post fits here too--the "silent treatment" and "bickering" certainly are up there on the list of common behaviours.

Calling out your Mom for her behaviour might not change her general m.o., but,  there are times when we decide need to assert ourselves, just because that is what want for us. Like to say, the rest of us are here, you are not running the show, and I am not going to rugsweep!

I have noticed that sometimes PDs will change their tune when they feel embarassed. (That is not to say you intend to "embarass" your Mom.)

For me the challenge would be to communicate the information and then direct my attention elsewhere. It sounds like a good occasion to practice your medium chill "skills."

I think it's wise that you use the time in advance to  prepare mentally,as you are doing now.

Personally speaking, my assertiveness depends on my condition within the situation (how am I feeling, am I tired, am I ready to deal with the antics, do I have allies around, do I have the possibility to exit if needed, etc.)

I'd imagine you are curious to see how it plays out this time. Who knows how she will be? They are "predictably" unpredictable.

However you end up handling the situation, it's empowering that you are going in there knowing that you have no obligation to ignore unhealthy behavior (if and when it comes up) just to maintain the status quo.

As I gear myself up for these types of visits it helps to remind myself that it's for  _X_ amount of time (and thank goodness, temporary).

[NarcKiddo]

That is a difficult one, for sure.

My worry about "calling her out" is that it might give her some perverse reward.

Asking if she is OK gives her an opportunity to play the martyr and say all is fine.

The possible problem I see with this is that you can only control you, not her. Telling her you won't ignore her behaviour is all very well, but how will you enforce that boundary? Leave if she does not behave herself? That's an option, of course, but it has to be something you are prepared to do. My mother is good at exactly the same sort of thing. As children we were supposed to bend over backwards to calm her ruffled feathers. Then it was all brushed under the carpet and not spoken of when she was ok again. Now we still do the brushing under the carpet but we also completely ignore the behaviour while it is happening and nobody goes to comfort her or see what is wrong. In our case this has resulted in a reduction of the behaviour as there is no reward in it for her. If we have ever tried calling it out after she has calmed down she either brushes it under the carpet herself or goes into another, worse, tantrum.

It's good that you are thinking all these things through in advance and I hope the visit goes better than you fear.

[LemonLime]

All such good replies so far.

I would particularly agree with the advice of not announcing a boundary that you have no way to enforce.  That could make things worse, I fear.

I confess to having some serious fleas from my FOO and when I got married my hubby couldn't understand how I would go silent when angry.  It was not to punish him, it was because I had learned no healthy way to express my emotions.   Emotions were not safe in my FOO.   He started out by coming to me when I went silent and trying to figure out what was wrong, and that didn't work well.  It made me shut down more.  Then he began ignoring the silence and just letting me have some space.   Although that made me feel abandoned at first, I have finally learned that I can give myself some space and then come to him to tell him what is wrong, in a far more constructive way.   He was baffled by my "stuff it and simmer" way of dealing with emotions but intuitively figured out what to do that was more constructive.   FWIW

I'm not saying that will work with a PD person, at all.  If they are entrenched in PD ways and not willing to be introspective, it won't work.  And I'll be anything that's true for your mom.  I'm only sharing this to give my experience as someone who used to give what could be called the ST.

My only other bit of advice is to stay somewhere else if you are able.  Sleep elsewhere, under another roof.   Or at the very least have a means of immediate escape.    After a terrible VRBO experience 3 years ago with my FOO (and PD sib) during which I was raged at for not "doing enough dishes and you are entitled LemonLime and always have been" I vowed I will never prepare a meal with sib, will never be alone with her, and will never sleep under the same roof.  And I will always have an immediate escape available to me where I do not need to return to where she is staying.  Best if I stay in a hotel and "visit" FOO for a dinner or something rather than try to have the happy family reunion that may turn into a nightmare.  I haven't test-driven this plan yet (thanks to the pandemic) but I feel a huge sense of peace knowing that I can enforce my "no rage" boundary very easily by leaving the "conversation" at any point and not coming back.  I have given myself permission to drop everything and leave abruptly.  I don't need to be polite.  It could be in the middle of a nice dinner for all I care, and if there are guests there, so be it.   My sanity is more important that anyone's feelings or discomfort at this point.  For once.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hey Cat of the Canals,

I googled "silent treatment narcissists" to see what comes up. The first search result said this is a way for a narcissist to convey displeasure, disapproval or contempt. So I guess the goal of their ST is to make people feel like they've done something wrong.

I don't have any good advice on how to respond / call them out / expose their behaviour, other than to say "Oh, I see you are not responding to me anymore" and basically just acknowledging their behaviour "I see you are not conversing with any of us right now" "I see you were in your room the entire time we were having dinner" sort of thing.

I guess another option would be to say "Hey, during this visit, if you feel the need to go silent on us / me, just know that I'm going to carry on with my plans for whatever I'm up to that day". That would probably illicit a lot of anger out of the average narc - they would hate to be exposed to that extent. The denial about their past behaviour would be overwhelming to deal with. So I am not advocating that you, or anyone, actually do that.

But imagine yourself saying it, and let yourself know: "when she goes into her ST routine, I'm going to do x (self-care)".  It sounds like you know it is possible she will go into the ST routine at some point during the visit. It is good to have a plan for it.

The rug sweeping is the part of the silent treatment that bothered me the most. Pretending that their silent treatment never happened. From what you write, it is clear that you won't be ignoring it, you yourself will KNOW what she is doing if she pulls out the ST.

You are past the point in your own life where someone's ST gets ignored by you. You are already acknowledging the potential for it by writing about it here and preparing for it. That shows great awareness, compared to the time in our lives when these passive aggressive tricks were being used on us and we didn't know it. You know it. You know darn well what is going on here with her now. You've grown into that awareness, and she can't do anything about it!!

Whether or not you verbalize the things you are aware of is totally up to you.

I fantasize about going back in time to when my narc relatives used the ST, and being old enough back then to say "oh that was the day you decided not to talk to us all day". And just feel confident reminding them of their past ST behaviours. Let them deny it or try to minimize it, all the while knowing exactly what their real behaviour was. Even if they refuse to acknowledge that they spent a whole day / year not speaking to specific family members.

I once had a visit with someone who did the ST - really boldly right in the middle of the visit-  and I wish I could go back and say "you know, you're an adult now, You can ask for a time out from us and take a break from socializing. It's just courteous as an adult, to tell us "Hey I need a day off from talking to anyone". (In other words, I wish I had had the confidence back then to expose the fact that this is a fully fledged adult, having a silent temper tantrum and hoping no one will call them out on it - very manipulative and immature!!). At the time, everyone ignored the ST, and the person who did it, denied it had happened. No apology or anything, just pretended it never occurred. It is very frustrating.

Let's all hope the visit goes well for you. You got this!

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

For me the challenge would be to communicate the information and then direct my attention elsewhere. It sounds like a good occasion to practice your medium chill "skills."

That is definitely going to be a challenge, but I think (or hope) I'm up to it. I've definitely grown a lot in the three years, but it's also easy to feel like I'm making progress when I'm 1500 miles away from her and LC. 

My worry about "calling her out" is that it might give her some perverse reward.

Asking if she is OK gives her an opportunity to play the martyr and say all is fine.

That's a good point. She's definitely in martyr mode when she does it. I think treesgrowslowly might have given me some better options with "I see you are not conversing with any of us right now." etc. Less of setting a specific boundary and more pointing out the behavior without playing into it.

It may be misguided, but part of the reason I feel it necessary to call attention to the Silent Treatment is because ignoring it without comment feels like being complicit in the rugsweeping that comes after. Which reinforces to her that it isn't problematic behavior. And I know I've just fallen into a trap of talking about it like I expect her to change. I truly don't. But I've changed and I'm not willing to play the same games anymore. Maybe it's enough to not do the "walk on eggshells" routine if she gets in a mood.

My only other bit of advice is to stay somewhere else if you are able.  Sleep elsewhere, under another roof.   Or at the very least have a means of immediate escape.   

Thanks for this advice and also sharing your experience with going silent. I have similar fleas. My response when I'm very upset is to withdraw. I do think I employed a more standard ST when I was younger... I intended it as punishment and wanted the other person to change or "fix" my feelings. These days, I am careful not to fall into those old patterns, but I do still usually need some alone time to process my emotions, and then I can talk it out.

But that's the problem with my mother. She never talks it out. In some cases, I don't even know what caused the ST to begin, so there's not even any hope of avoiding it in the future. She just gets mad and makes it a point to make the rest of us uncomfortable and miserable.

[moglow]

But that's the problem with my mother. She never talks it out. In some cases, I don't even know what caused the ST to begin, so there's not even any hope of avoiding it in the future. She just gets mad and makes it a point to make the rest of us uncomfortable and miserable.

And you're supposed to all magically know what it was that set her off AND fix it to her satisfaction? That's how it worked with mine. Mother really did not respond well when we stopped circling the wagons, just let her be mad without questioning it or doing anything differently. We didn't even bother to call her on it, just let her be who she was. She just isolated herself further with every breath.

Word of caution though - she has turned it around and accused us of giving her the silent treatment when we honestly just had nothing to say or got tired of being ignored/talked over and just stopped calling. I mean, it was a big fat waste of air and energy to even try to communicate with her. Weeks after one of her big dramas, she called my older brother and literally said the silent treatment wasn't getting it. She'd stood us up for a holiday meal, called at the last minute claiming she had car trouble and couldn't make it. To add insult to injury, she was even more mad that no one appeared concerned about her supposed car trouble - that she'd LIED about. To this day she doesn't understand that there was nothing to say and no reason to try and talk it through. She created a mess out of thin air and foolishness, then got mad that we didn't buy into it. 

[Cat of the Canals]

Yep, been there, done that, moglow. The last time she threw a tantrum with me was when I first told her we were thinking of moving. After doing everything she could to (unsuccessfully) undermine my confidence in the matter, she gave me a good 2+ weeks of ST. I shrugged and went on my merry way. She flipped into lovebombing mode once she found out we'd been seriously looking at real estate through my brother. The fact that she could go from full-blown ST to calling me every hour, demanding I call her back or "my next call will be from your doorstep" was maddening. When I didn't return her calls immediately, she sent my brother in as a Flying Monkey. He literally told me, "Mom's on board now" and that I should call her to "smooth things over." When I told him I wasn't interested in playing this whole rugsweeping game again, he accused me of acting just like her. I knew I wasn't, but he was deeper in the fog then and couldn't see it. Not sure if he's out of it enough these days that he'd see things differently, but I know now that's not my problem.

[bee well]

Hi All,

I don't have too much more to add but I just wanted to say it's been helpful to see how this discussion, with the different observations and possible options, has unfolded. Thank You.  I think I'll be re-reading what's written here before next visit with uPD MIL. 

Cat of the Canals, I wonder if it will be the same old same old now that you are 3 years out. Probably, but it will be interesting to know how you see them close up now that things have changed for you.

[Cat of the Canals]

I definitely appreciate the various perspectives. I watched a few videos on narcs and ST and pretty much all of the "experts" recommend ignoring the ST completely, so maybe that's the best option. If I'm being honest, there's part of me that is anxious to set some boundaries "out loud" just to prove I can, but many boundaries aren't an out loud thing at all. Not allowing HER mood and behavior to effect mine is a boundary all by itself, and not one that needs to be stated overtly.

bee well, my husband believes that both PDmil and PDmom have changed, to some degree, because of the distance. I don't know if I agree. The distance makes LC a whole lot easier for sure, but that's a physical barrier. It'd be like saying, "Hey, the grizzly bear isn't mauling us now that we've put iron bars between us and him. I think he's changed!" If we moved back, I have no doubt they would be right back to trampling our boundaries on a regular basis.

But there's not doubt that I've changed. I no longer feel obligated to call my mother according to her demanding schedule. I no longer feel compelled to "fawn" the way I used to. And the biggest change is that I no longer feel guilty for wanting what I want and not wanting what I don't.

[moglow]

If I'm being honest, there's part of me that is anxious to set some boundaries "out loud" just to prove I can, but many boundaries aren't an out loud thing at all. Not allowing HER mood and behavior to effect mine is a boundary all by itself, and not one that needs to be stated overtly.

I'd be willing to "oh. you need some time to just chill? Okay well we're all here if you change your mind." Acknowledge she's clearly withdrawn and let her know if y'all decide on a group activity obvs but beyond that, leave her to her own devices until she's ready to play well with others. Send in one of the kids maybe, see if she needs anything. Sometimes we all get overwhelmed or stomach upset etc and just need a bit of time. If she's being pouty I'd think that would be clear too. You're all in the house together, she can rejoin or not.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Please don't send a kid to face her alone. There are sure to be shenanigans.

Not that you meant it that way, Moglow, but I remember being that meat shield for my parents and getting to be the kid that got sent to sulking grandma and grandma then dumped ALL the inappropriate things on me about how grandpa drinks too much and she's tried to tell my dad but he doesn't listen and surely if *I* said something she could be helped...

If she chooses to be alone I would leave her there. Checking on her is fawning behavior imho.

[moglow]

Good point - differing perspectives! Mine would be much less likely to cause a scene or throw down with grands than with one of her own. If she froze up and isolated she could just stay there otherwise.

[Cat of the Canals]

I would have thought PDmom would behave in front of her grandkids, but she apparently stormed out of the house once when my nephew wanted Grandpa to read him a story instead of Grandma, so....

[moglow]

With md it's more of a stranger danger thing, where she'll behave [if a bit frosty] outside the immediate family circle. Her now-adult grands are basically strangers to her, so I'm guessing she'd be less likely to throw down on them. She'd play the poor poor me card and try to gain sympathy. With someone she's been around more frequently, she wouldn't hesitate to lower the boom. I didn't know what your mother's relationship with the grands is like - I was thinking of "hey granny - you've been in here a while [or are you okay]. Can I come in?" Not pander to her exactly but "point made, pull it together already."