No, I don't "fight with my mother"

[Iris1022]

My in laws (lovely normal people) have witnessed my narc mother in action many times. She has ruined multiple family gatherings over the years with her tantrums and narcissistic antics, all in front of the in laws. They've witnessed the craziness first hand, yet their takeaway is the general observation that "Iris fights with her mother."

This gets under my skin because it implies that I somehow play a role in the crazy and abusive antics manufactured by mommy dearest. I also understand how hard it is for others outside of the narcissistic situation to fully grasp what's going on so I give my in laws a pass for that. I mean, I grew up with it and it took me until I was 40 years old to fully understand my mother's behavior. But still, it stings when others oversimplify or act as if I am partially at fault for the abuse and inappropriate behavior. FIL recently told me that I should "talk things out" with my mother. I cringe just typing that. If only it were that simple! It is not possible to "talk things out" with someone who has such a topsy turvy, screwed up world view and perspective on life.

Just putting this out there. I know we all want validation and understanding but it is so tough to get it in a world where it is nearly impossible for normal people to understand just how messed up life with a narcissist can be.

[moglow]

No recognition that she indiscriminately fights with the world, regardless of what they've witnessed? Swell. Because talking it out [yet again] is such a productive and helpful activity for anyone involved? [insert hard rolling eyes and a schnort here] I get it, they're thinking how they think, how they operate, what makes sense to them and your average Joe on the street. They truly dont understand: throw in absolutely not average Josephine/mommie dearest, and all bets are off!

Helpful hint: Understand hey mean well, they really do. They *dont* understand that what they know and who they are really isn't universal. All parents are not like them. Guarandamntee were they to see behind closed doors they'd be horrified.

I'd probably quietly accept random suggestions like that and just as quietly change the subject. Until you've lived it and heard it/the crazy abuse until you puke, it isn't real. They probably really want to help and are grasping.

[Associate of Daniel]

I get the frustration.

My difficulty is that my ds15 thinks that his uNPD father (My ex) and I argue all the time.

We don't. We don't even say boo to each other in person. Every communication is by email.

Many of UNPD exH's emails to me are long. Full of condescending accusations, word salad and irrelevant references.

My responses are short, ignoring everything except the issue at hand.

An "argument" with him would look very different.  I'd state my needs, wants or opinions.  I'd pull him up on his behaviour.  I'd Justify, Defend, Explain.  I'd correct him on his "facts".

I do none of that.

So any outbursts from UNPD exH are short lived as he has extremely limited fuel from me.

But ds15 doesn't understand that.  And may never understand.

It's a hard place to sit as I'm the one who looks disfunctional by not behaving normally with his UNPD father.  I don't converse the same way with him as I do with everyone else in my life (aside from ds's UNPD smother).

Because those two uNPDs are the only people I have any issues with in my life.

Funny that.

AOD

[NarcKiddo]

I think the problem is that normal people assume that "it takes two to tango".  So even if they only ever witness the PD causing the trouble, they will assume something/someone is involved if not at the root of it. If you are generally present when it is all going down then you become the common denominator in their mind, and they come to the conclusion you bear part of the blame for the unpleasant situation.

Actually, we can't win - because if we go NC normal people will just say, or think, "oh, how can you desert your one and only mother?"

As a matter of interest, what did you say to FIL when he suggested you talk things out?

[Starboard Song]

They've witnessed the craziness first hand, yet their takeaway is the general observation that "Iris fights with her mother."

This gets under my skin because it implies that I somehow play a role in the crazy and abusive antics manufactured by mommy dearest. I also understand how hard it is for others outside of the narcissistic situation to fully grasp what's going on so I give my in laws a pass for that. I mean, I grew up with it and it took me until I was 40 years old to fully understand my mother's behavior. But still, it stings when others oversimplify or act as if I am partially at fault for the abuse and inappropriate behavior. FIL recently told me that I should "talk things out" with my mother. I cringe just typing that. If only it were that simple! It is not possible to "talk things out" with someone who has such a topsy turvy, screwed up world view and perspective on life.

Just putting this out there. I know we all want validation and understanding but it is so tough to get it in a world where it is nearly impossible for normal people to understand just how messed up life with a narcissist can be.

The part I boldfaced is just heroic. We can't suddenly figure things out at 40, 45, or 50 years old, after having front row seats for all those years, and then be shocked when someone in the nosebleeds doesn't agree with us.

We joke here in my house that for a long time I thought there was just "this thing between my wife and her mom." I am really good at diffusing tension, and I have a nearly impregnable self-esteem, so my MIL's little digs didn't hurt. It was only when we had our crisis and the knives came out for both of us that I really saw and understood.

Our joke, that I didn't respect what my wife was going through, is a little unfair. I mean, yeah: my wife has fleas and a temper so, yeah, there was a thing between her and her mom. And I hadn't been dismissive. But in spirit, the joke is spot on. So I don't contest it. She knows that she was alone with it for all those years, and I don't need to defend myself at this late date. She isn't calling me a jerk: she's just acknowledging that it looks different on the business end.

I admire you for understanding how hard it is for people not in the house with it to get it. You know the truth and know what you endure. You needn't persuade anyone, and can't really expect people to agree. I know that is hard. For many years, I was that intransigent, non-understander in my wife's life. As someone who didn't get it, who caused that pain for my own DW, I offer you a hug. And this promise: when we don't get it, it isn't a lack of love or respect. We just don't get it.

Thank you for sharing this source of pain in your life. And your way of describing it, I hope, will be a source of strength for others facing the same thing.

[Iris1022]

I think the problem is that normal people assume that "it takes two to tango".  So even if they only ever witness the PD causing the trouble, they will assume something/someone is involved if not at the root of it. If you are generally present when it is all going down then you become the common denominator in their mind, and they come to the conclusion you bear part of the blame for the unpleasant situation.

Actually, we can't win - because if we go NC normal people will just say, or think, "oh, how can you desert your one and only mother?"

As a matter of interest, what did you say to FIL when he suggested you talk things out?

Thanks for your support!

I told FIL it wasn't that simple; that it isn't necessarily straightforward to have a rational conversation with my mother. I think he understands that "something" isn't quite right with her, but given his lack of experience with the whole narc situation, he can't comprehend the full picture. One thing of note - he has mentioned being offended by her behaviors in the past. One time, we were all visiting the in laws, narc mother included, and she got pissed off for no good reason and left without saying goodbye to anyone. He was dumbfounded and offended at the same time. He's also not happy with her for not reaching out to my MIL when her mother passed away recently. Clearly I wasn't even involved in either situation (although I was present when she stormed out for no reason), so he gets that she behaves selfishly. I'm sure he's wondering what the f*** is up with her but can't quite put the pieces together and I can't blame him. It took me LIVING IT for decades to put it all together.

[Iris1022]

They've witnessed the craziness first hand, yet their takeaway is the general observation that "Iris fights with her mother."

This gets under my skin because it implies that I somehow play a role in the crazy and abusive antics manufactured by mommy dearest. I also understand how hard it is for others outside of the narcissistic situation to fully grasp what's going on so I give my in laws a pass for that. I mean, I grew up with it and it took me until I was 40 years old to fully understand my mother's behavior. But still, it stings when others oversimplify or act as if I am partially at fault for the abuse and inappropriate behavior. FIL recently told me that I should "talk things out" with my mother. I cringe just typing that. If only it were that simple! It is not possible to "talk things out" with someone who has such a topsy turvy, screwed up world view and perspective on life.

Just putting this out there. I know we all want validation and understanding but it is so tough to get it in a world where it is nearly impossible for normal people to understand just how messed up life with a narcissist can be.

The part I boldfaced is just heroic. We can't suddenly figure things out at 40, 45, or 50 years old, after having front row seats for all those years, and then be shocked when someone in the nosebleeds doesn't agree with us.

We joke here in my house that for a long time I thought there was just "this thing between my wife and her mom." I am really good at diffusing tension, and I have a nearly impregnable self-esteem, so my MIL's little digs didn't hurt. It was only when we had our crisis and the knives came out for both of us that I really saw and understood.

Our joke, that I didn't respect what my wife was going through, is a little unfair. I mean, yeah: my wife has fleas and a temper so, yeah, there was a thing between her and her mom. And I hadn't been dismissive. But in spirit, the joke is spot on. So I don't contest it. She knows that she was alone with it for all those years, and I don't need to defend myself at this late date. She isn't calling me a jerk: she's just acknowledging that it looks different on the business end.

I admire you for understanding how hard it is for people not in the house with it to get it. You know the truth and know what you endure. You needn't persuade anyone, and can't really expect people to agree. I know that is hard. For many years, I was that intransigent, non-understander in my wife's life. As someone who didn't get it, who caused that pain for my own DW, I offer you a hug. And this promise: when we don't get it, it isn't a lack of love or respect. We just don't get it.

Thank you for sharing this source of pain in your life. And your way of describing it, I hope, will be a source of strength for others facing the same thing.

Thanks for your kind words! It is definitely difficult to feel alone as the abuse recipient, but again, I totally get how difficult it must be for those on the outside to truly understand the insanity that goes on in a narc's life.

My husband is similar to you. For years he thought I just had a "difficult" relationship with my mother, but over time and with more and more education, he now gets it. He no longer pushes for me to approach my mother as a normal, rational human being because he realizes that it is pointless. That said, it took over 10 years and a lot of research and experience to get to that point! 

I think it all clicked with my husband one Christmas a few years ago. My mother had taken my then-5 year old daugher out that day and had pumped her full of sugar. My daughter is really high energy so as parents, our rule is that her sugar intake is limited. Clearly my mother completely disregarded that boundary. We let it go, but then they came home and my mother tried to give our daughter soda on top of all the sugar she'd had. (My daughter was on a crazy sugar high at the time, by the way.) My husband made a comment about how she shouldn't have the soda (in a polite way) and my mother went ballistic. The rest of the night was one big tantrum, and when we woke up the next morning she was gone. She left the Christmas gift we had given her on the table, packed up, called a cab, and took herself to the airport to book an earlier flight home. She didn't even say goodbye to her granddaughter. All because we didn't want our daughter to have soda on top of candy and sweets. At that point, it clicked with my husband that his MIL was not a normal human being...

Sorry for the long example!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Iris,

Your post is very insightful to me. You get it - they think you have tension with her that can be resolved. We all know that the issues with PDs don't get resolved by talking it out with them. Like you said - if only!

Her behaviour seems odd to them because it is. They probably  can't imagine behaving like she does.

Do they ask you to explain why she acts like this?

You are certainly not responsible in any way for helping them sort out how she treats them. And my guess is that they are not happy with how she has treated them.

Since you said your FIL recently suggested that you talk things out with your mother, I guess you could explore what is his motivation. Is he hoping that you can get her to apologize for her recent lack of concern about the death in the family? 

Is he hoping that you can fix her behaviours or prevent future loopy behaviour out of her?

Can you tell your ILs that their words sting - and that talking to her doesn't work, so you are putting your energy elsewhere in life? Or would they disagree?

Regardless, I'm glad you know that its not your job to try to fix a disordered parent.

Trees

[Leonor]

Hi Iris,

I would like to offer a gentle suggestion: your in-laws are breaching a boundary of yours by asking questions about a relationship that has nothing to do with them and then making comments on a situation they know nothing about. There is definitely a judgement made about you in their curiosity, and I'd go so far as to speculate that their concern is actually an upset over the possibility that their son has married an independent woman. If they were truly sympathetic, they would shower you with affection and reassure you that as parents their responsibility is to own their stuff in relationship to their adult children. You would feel heard instead of frustrated.

I think that undercurrent might be (very naturally) quite triggering in any interaction with your in-laws. If you continue to engage with them on this topic, I bet they will become more entrenched and passive-aggressive, you will feel more and more frustrated, and your dh will feel pulled in a gazillion directions.

One way to dissolve the tension is to politely demur from further conversation on the topic and if they bring it up, leave it to dh to cut in with, "Mom, let's talk about something else" and then change the subject to the weather.

After all, they are HIS parents. He's the one who should be handling them for you.

[easterncappy]

I know that their intentions are probably good. I know. But it doesn't make it any less frustrating to deal with.

Because the worst they've ever felt about their parents is a bit of sadness over not getting the latest video game console for Christmas or something similarly benign (I'm not even making fun of them - most people don't remember being disappointed by their parents all that much), and every argument was followed by actual remorse and changed behavior, they assume that's all we went through too. They know child abuse exists as an abstract concept, everyone sees the news headlines from time to time, but they don't imagine that they've ever actually met the victims of it. They have a cartoonish picture in their minds of what child abuse looks like... clearly, it's 24/7/365 brutal beatings, molestation, starvation, screaming, neglect, and so on... if what they see or hear about falls short of that, they don't accept that it could be child abuse. Plus, very few people know about the whole FOG dynamic, so they assume that if your parents were really abusive, you'd have cut contact the second you turned 18 and they'd probably even be in jail, right?

But if all of mom's "quirks" were between spouses, these same people would be saying "call the police and file for separation, that's abuse". Since "she's like, your mom, she gave you life", she gets away with it. It takes DV victims an average of 13 tries to leave for good, but we're supposed to figure it out at 18 and succeed at the first attempt.

Just makes me want to bang my head against a wall.

[square]

Just chiming in because I've found this to be a very interesting puzzle - there seems to be some dysfunction somewhere in nonPD society that does not perceive this correctly and therefore plays into PD hands.

1) "It takes two to tango"
As mentioned above

I actually think there is merit in this idiom but it's misunderstoid and misapplied.

We are each responsible for our own behavior - a wonderful and freeing and empowering fact.

But "takes two to tango" seems to be often misunderstood to say that any drama involving two people is the responsibility of both parties in equal measure.

NO.

I once had a clearly mentally ill woman yell at me on the street, she followed me for a little while accusing me of all sorts of bizzare things. I did not engage her at all. There was drama. I was one of the parties. I was not 50% respinsible for her screaming. I was, of course, 100% responsible for my own behavior.

For many years, I assumed that in my marriage, "we" were volatile, "we" had anger issues, "we" fought. And in a certain way that was true, because I was engaging.

When I realized that what was going on was actually not 50% me and 50% him, oddly enough, that freed me to become 100% responsible for myself, and was able to (over time with practice) change how I responded.

I'm not saying it was 100% H, but the idea that not every altercation is pure 50-50 was totally contrary to what society seems to teach. Aggressors and predators love the idea that everything is 50-50, it makes them no more responsible than anyone else even if they are abusing people.

2) "Everyone is reasonable"
Also mentioned above

I subscribed to this fallacy. I had reasonable parents. I knew some people were ornery or cantankerous but assumed deep down they were just like everyone else, maybe just a bit less trusting.

NOPE. Some people understand perfectly well they are hurting you, and they are fine with it. Being more understanding or loving or explaining it better doesn't help that!

3) "You're the reasonable party, so fix it"

I think this is an unconscious idea that has survival value but no actual logic based on justice or fairness.

It's also contrary to point #2 on its face, yet I think it still coexists with it somehow.

We identify an unreasonable person. We think, this person is unreasonable. I can't get through to them.

So we look at their child (adult or otherwise), spouse, sibling, whoever, and say "hey you! You're reasonable! Fix this!"

My DD doesn't even think to ask her dad for certain things. She just comes right to me, and she just expects a reasonable response from me and would look bewildered if asked why she didn't ask dad.

She is a child so this makes perfect survival sense. Of course she is not expected to say "it's not fair that I look to mom for everything and let dad off the hook." No, she is going to say "I need this, and dad's not gonna help."

But we would hope that adults would not do this. "Your mother is unreasonable and you're reasonable so I need you to fix this." Ugh. But many do, and they let the unreasonable off the hook because there's no point dealing with crazy.

[sunshine702]

Do the in laws know some of the true Horrible Moments - Those jaw dropping sick events. For instance -.   I listen to a You Tuber Lady C who had a Narc Mom who in her teens tried to burn her with a lit cigarette .  Everyone knew at that moment it  was a turning point.  Or do they just know the holiday craziness? That can be written off as Difficult Family during high stress times?

You may want to tell them one of those stories and then state Very Firmly THIS is why I have Boundary X or Limited time with the Kids Alone Y.  You don't need to understand Narc to understand burning a child with a cigarette is a dangerous person.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi Iris. This sounds difficult and I too really admire your insight and grace you extend to your in laws.

I think other commenters have given good insight too. I do think there is a boundary violation, but "please talk it out," would make sense with reasonable people. They want to be more comfortable, understandably, and the person "closest" to the source of the discomfort would naturally be "it" in helping with that, similar To how Leonor suggests your husband should manage his parents. However, this is technically triangulation since your husband actually has no part in this conflict. Ack! Is this a problem? Not really. These "rules" only need to be rigid when there is not goodwill on all sides, in my opinion. It's fine to do what makes sense to you, to be as open with your in-laws as you see fit. And certainly fine not to try to fix things between your mom and in-laws!

[easterncappy]

Do the in laws know some of the true Horrible Moments - Those jaw dropping sick events. For instance -.   I listen to a You Tuber Lady C who had a Narc Mom who in her teens tried to burn her with a lit cigarette .  Everyone knew at that moment it  was a turning point.  Or do they just know the holiday craziness? That can be written off as Difficult Family during high stress times?

You may want to tell them one of those stories and then state Very Firmly THIS is why I have Boundary X or Limited time with the Kids Alone Y.  You don't need to understand Narc to understand burning a child with a cigarette is a dangerous person.

I've noticed that there are two kinds of normies when it comes to finding out about the horrors that some people have to go through.

One group might scratch their heads and think it's weird (because quite frankly a lot of this abuse is just bizarro behavior compared to what they expect abuse to look like), but they'll immediately empathize with you. They won't make excuses for your parents... they might ask questions or not really understand what's going on, but they'll know something is wrong with how you were brought up.

The other... "well, she's still your mom!" "I'm sure he didn't mean it, I mean, he was probably really drunk and doesn't remember it!" "I know she did x - but I would NEVER shut my mom out of my life!". Aaaand those are the ones you want to either avoid or start building strong boundaries with. They're the ones that become enablers if they ever have to live or be close with a PD. They might be PD themselves but at the very least they internalize a lot of "parents are perfect beings who deserve neverending admiration and any time there is strife between parents and adult children, it's always the children's fault" rhetortic either from their families, the culture they live in, etc.

And it is looking like OP's in laws are the second type.