Never admit you're wrong.

[Cat of the Canals]

My last FOO visit was a few months ago, and overall it was shockingly drama-free, but there's one thing that just keeps floating around in my head.

The night before I flew back home, my SIL and I stayed up late talking. At one point, she was talking about how she's changed as a parent and reflecting on mistakes made in the past. When her first child was maybe 18 months old, she took him to my parents' house for dinner one night. He was being a bit boisterous at the table, throwing a placemat or something around which knocked into a light fixture, and she was getting frustrated that he wouldn't stop, so she did something she'd never done before: she yelled at him.

My first thought when hearing this is: I can't even imagine this happening because I've never heard her raise her voice EVER. She's the calmest person I've ever met.

My next thought was how my mom, self-appointed Greatest Grandmother on the Planet, is probably going to jump in the middle of this and make things worse by yelling at my SIL for yelling at her precious grandson. But no...

SIL goes on to say that because she'd never yelled at my nephew before, he got really upset. Which made her feel awful. She instantly apologized to him for raising her voice and started comforting him. While she's doing this, my mom is apparently standing in the background frowning and shaking her head and mouthing, "NOOOO!" She later pulled SIL aside and explained that she should NEVER, as a parent, apologize or admit to being wrong. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My mouth literally dropped open when my SIL told me this, not because it's all that shocking for PD behavior, but because it shows a level of awareness I wasn't sure my mother had. I mean, that is certainly a choice.

And I wonder, in my mother's mind, does this mandate end at some point? Is it only for small children? Only for minors? Or is this refusal to ever concede anything to her children something that stays written in stone until she dies?

And she wonders why we can't have a closer relationship.

[Srcyu]

I would have liked to ask her, 'why not?'
Deliberate spite, a control tactic, grandiose delusion, the unattractive list goes on.

I recall absolute stunned silence on the two occasions I managed to penetrate bpd mother's outer coating and make her realise she had been wrong. A lot of it was deliberate and some of it ...... she was too far gone into her own world to be reached. It was always me who suffered though.

In my view there is no end point.

[NarcKiddo]

My mother rarely acknowledges she has got something wrong and if she does it is generally in a waify "I didn't know, I didn't mean it, I couldn't help it" sort of way. Or you get a very grandiose fauxpology.

She would lose her temper a lot when we were children and I remember her shouting blue murder at me once when I was about 7. The rage had been triggered by nothing to do with me. To my surprise, when she had finished ranting at me she went quiet for a couple of minutes and then said "I'm sorry for shouting at you. Do you forgive me?" I was still grappling with my own anger at the unfair treatment and had not yet managed to suppress it enough to keep my wits about me so my response was to glare at her and say "no". That did not go well.

[moglow]

my mom is apparently standing in the background frowning and shaking her head and mouthing, "NOOOO!" She later pulled SIL aside and explained that she should NEVER, as a parent, apologize or admit to being wrong. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woooooow. That explains so much. How are children to understand how that works, how important it is, if they never see it action. And how many of us perpetually blame ourselves because mommie dearest refused to be the grown up.


When mother lost it we weren't allowed to speak, make any noise, cry, be angry, defend ourselves or block a blow... We had to stand there and take whatever she dished until she was through. Within hours that switch had flipped and she'd complain I was avoiding her, pouting, hiding in my room. No acknowledgment whatsoever. She was done so it was over and we erased the board. Until the next time. It was never mentioned and what set her off this time might not next. Or there's be something new I never saw coming.


And they wonder, ask and badger us why we dont have that magical super special relationship, why we've shut them out. Ya THINK??

[lkdrymom]

I think it is generational.  Older generations were always right, even when they were wrong.

If I was wrong, I would admit it to my kids. My husband (their stepfather) is 18 years older than me and I guess that generation could not be see as 'wrong'.  One time I called him to tell him when he left for work he forgot to close his garage door.  Not a big deal but also something you don't want to do.  First thing out of his mouth was "Don't tell the kids I did that".  I relied "Who do you think told me about it"

[wisingup]

My mother rarely acknowledges she has got something wrong and if she does it is generally in a waify "I didn't know, I didn't mean it, I couldn't help it" sort of way. Or you get a very grandiose fauxpology.

She would lose her temper a lot when we were children and I remember her shouting blue murder at me once when I was about 7. The rage had been triggered by nothing to do with me. To my surprise, when she had finished ranting at me she went quiet for a couple of minutes and then said "I'm sorry for shouting at you. Do you forgive me?" I was still grappling with my own anger at the unfair treatment and had not yet managed to suppress it enough to keep my wits about me so my response was to glare at her and say "no". That did not go well.

NarcKiddo - this sounds so much like my mom.  Whenever confronted with bad behavior, she gets waify and starts talking about how mistreated she was as a child.  Which I'm sure she was, but that is no excuse to treat people badly today.  Nothing in your past earns you a free pass to mistreat people & expect them to put up with it.

Also, I won't go into details here as they're a bit much, but I remember a time that she called me to come to her in an angry voice, showed me something that had happened that she blamed me for & ranted over it for a bit.  Once she stopped, I pointed something out that made it clear it had to have been her and not me who caused it.  She went "Oh" & kind of deflated, then asked "Do you want to yell at me now?"  I just said no and walked off, the incident was never spoken of again.

[Jolie40]

as PD parent got older, I was hoping she'd reflect on her life & realize how horribly she treated me as SG & maybe apologize to me

I "waited" 'til the end but never got an apology
no recognition from PD parent of the wrong inflicted on me

I did forgive PD parent w/o saying so to her

don't know why I held out hope for an apology

[Jolie40]

She later pulled SIL aside and explained that she should NEVER, as a parent, apologize or admit to being wrong.

don't know why she would think that ^

I believe it's important to apologize to our children when we've done them wrong
otherwise, the incident will always be with them & they'll mull over it, remembering how a parent did them wrong

[wisingup]

as PD parent got older, I was hoping she'd reflect on her life & realize how horribly she treated me as SG & maybe apologize to me

I get this Jolie40.  I think we want there to be a reason for all we went through, for someone to acknowledge how much we put up with.  It's a bummer to accept that this will never happen from the person who actually wronged you. 

If it helps any, I am so sorry that you were treated as a scapegoat by your mother, and proud and impressed that you have persevered in spite of the parenting you received.  Hugs 

[Leonor]

I apologize to my children all the time, because the longer I am a parent the more crystal clear it becomes to me that I have really no idea of what I'm doing and most of the time I'm making it up as I go along, and there does not appear to be a Mom Manual around to give me the slightest clue, so I make all kinds of mistakes and the I'm responsible for acknowledging that and offering to make amends.

Children are not proto-adults. They are human beings with feelings and experiences, and when they are treated unfairly or thoughtlessly, they deserve an apology just as much as adults, if not more so, because adults have an authority that carries a grave obligation.

The old idea that adults shouldn't admit mistakes to children, let alone apologize, comes from a view that children are inherently evil and must be controlled and frightened into obedience. But really it's that children don't understand subterfuge and manipulation, and will innocently speak the truth in ways that make adults feel self conscious or embarrassed. If the adult gaslights the child by pretending that nothing is wrong or, usually, that the child is to blame, then that to me is the worst and most damaging kind of psychological and emotional abuse.

[Cat of the Canals]

I agree that there's a generational component to this, but I think for a lot of PDs, it goes deeper than that. I believe she feels her role as "mother" gives her a position of absolute power. Apologies and admissions of wrongdoing, in her mind, would weaken her position. So she will never do it. And even though I wasn't there, I sense fear in my mother's words. I think she is terrified of losing her "power."

I've said before that she refers to herself as the Queen of the Effing Universe, and one of her phrases when we were children was, "Because I'm your mother, and I know everything." For a long time I thought these were jokes. I know better now.

[moglow]

I believe she feels her role as "mother" gives her a position of absolute power. Apologies and admissions of wrongdoing, in her mind, would weaken her position. So she will never do it. And even though I wasn't there, I sense fear in my mother's words. I think she is terrified of losing her "power."

All of that, Cat - and unfortunately our age/experience /wisdom etc mean nothing. Hers always ranks higher. Just ask her. Mine doesn't just feel her role gives her absolute power, believes it with every breath in her body.

[Cat of the Canals]

All of that, Cat - and unfortunately our age/experience /wisdom etc mean nothing. Hers always ranks higher. Just ask her. Mine doesn't just feel her role gives her absolute power, believes it with every breath in her body.

I think you're right on all counts, including the fact that if I asked her, she wouldn't even deny it. I do think she'd dress it up with a smile and a tone that suggested it was one of her cute jokes, but in practice, it's never actually a joke.

Sort of off-topic, but I've mentioned before that she stalks my Goodreads and once demanded to know why I was reading Emotional Blackmail -- in the past I've tried to hide and backdate my narc-themed reads because of this. Anyway, I just started reading I'm Glad My Mom Died, and I'm not hiding this one.   

[NarcKiddo]

Sort of off-topic, but I've mentioned before that she stalks my Goodreads and once demanded to know why I was reading Emotional Blackmail -- in the past I've tried to hide and backdate my narc-themed reads because of this. Anyway, I just started reading I'm Glad My Mom Died, and I'm not hiding this one.   

Eavesdroppers never hear good of themselves... 

[Liketheducks]

IF my mom admits she's wrong it is totally in that waif-like way and then she'll spend several days making it crystal clear that I understand that she didn't mean it in that way......poor me.    Everyone misunderstands my intent.   Whaaa.   
With CPTSD I've found it is hard for me to trust myself.   So, I will sometimes pass these comments by here or another trusted friend just for validation/clarification.   
Mom and I have had to have several conversations where I explain the difference between intentions and results.   Just because you didn't intend to insult me by saying I'm fat....you were just trying to be helpful.....doesn't mean that you didn't just call me fat.    Then we have to talk about how I'm not going to spend time with someone who calls me fat.   She utterly doesn't get it.   She says she's trying to be helpful.   I'm fairly certain I can't change that for her.     She's done it so often that when it happens, I kind of see it coming.

As a parent myself, I totally admit when I'm wrong.    I want my kiddo to learn how to graciously accept when he's in the wrong.   Which he does.    My son has boundaries.  If we get into a disagreement, he can totally take space away to process what he needs.   Then we get back to each other, clean our side of the street, and repair.   Watching him do that after growing up the way I did, makes me feel so proud.   

[moglow]

I'm sorry but I'd have to stage landmines in that Goodreads account. You want to stalk, pry and interfere, while you treat me like crap? You get  what you get.

[wisingup]

Then we have to talk about how I'm not going to spend time with someone who calls me fat.   She utterly doesn't get it.   She says she's trying to be helpful.   I'm fairly certain I can't change that for her. 

It sounds like she's looking for a justification to bully you.  It makes her feel good to say these things because it puts her in the one-up position in the relationship. 

It took me a long time to understand that intentions don't really matter.  If someone hits you with their car, you are just as injured whether they were drunk, or texting, or having a heart attack.  The impact on you is the same no matter what's going on with the other person, & they need to take care not to injure you if they care about you as they say they do.

[Escaped_Goat]

Those moments are a little bit of validation for you that she has a character that was never going to induce growth and safety. And you need to savour then because god knows the crazy making of these people when they are so convinced that you're the problem.

I think it's massively important that we show children we can own mistakes, that we can admit we messed up and want to repair. How else will our children do the same as adults? How else will our children have any sort of meaningful relationship with themselves and others without this?

[Cat of the Canals]

I think it's massively important that we show children we can own mistakes, that we can admit we messed up and want to repair. How else will our children do the same as adults? How else will our children have any sort of meaningful relationship with themselves and others without this?

100% agree. I'd go so far as to say that I consider it a hallmark of maturity to be able to say, "I'm sorry." and/or "I was wrong." To categorically insist you should never say these things to your children is bizarrely arbitrary at best. At worst, it creates an environment with no hope for intimacy and trust.

I would think that someone her age would have recognized by now that no one is perfect and no one knows everything, but... silly rabbit, growing up is for nons. It shows me how deep her need to be "perfect" and "always right" goes. Right down to the bone, apparently.