Divorce talk uBpdw

[harsha_nails]

I stepped into it again, like always - a fairly innocuous argument leading to "I'm done I want to separate" talk.
She even laid out her plans of moving out - first she wants to get her own car, when our current lease is about to end look for a new house and all this after we just moved to a new country with our 2 year old. It makes me incredibly angry. But I am proud of myself in not retaliating in anger and telling her she is free to do as she wants but I would be sad and disappointed if that happened.
I'm going to therapy and  after a few sessions I was comfortable enough to tell him that I suspect my wife exhibits (most likely) BPD traits. He kind of laid out my choices all of which seem very scary.
I am finally standing up for myself and I don't want to be a doormat anymore but I worry for our 2 year old. I want to establish clear boundaries around
- Divorce talk
- Yelling and screaming
- Abuse

And also want to prepare if the "discard" eventually comes to conclusion. It is really sad and scary but just wanted to come on here for advice?
Has anyone successfully implemented boundaries with uBPD/BPD spouse? Do you continue to have respect/love for each other? How to deal with it especially when the spouse is undiagnosed and refuses the slightest suggestion of couples therapy?

My backstory: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=93956.0

Thanks for all the help!

[SonofThunder]

Hi Harsha,

I am sorry you are suffering in your relationship with your wife. The answer to your last paragraph is the Toolbox.  The toolbox tab is above right on every page. Boundaries are also described in the toolbox. 

Please understand that boundaries are only about our own self-control, for our own self protection.  They are not to attempt to control the actions or reactions of another adult. 

Therefore, you can surely not "Divorce talk, Yelling and screaming, Abuse", but you cannot make your wife stop doing those three.

Its actually quite boring for your wife to do those three to herself, so a boundary for yourself may look like this:

"When my wife brings up divorce, I will (toolbox skills) noJADE, MediumChill/GrayRock, walk away"

"When my wife yells/screams, I will (toolbox skills) noJADE, MediumChill/GrayRock, walk away"

"When my wife verbally abuses me, I will (toolbox skills) noJADE, MediumChill/GrayRock, walk away"

"When my wife physically abuses me, I will both immediately remove myself from her presence and call the police to report the physical abuse"

Since you are a responsible parent of your 2 year old, and the 2 year old cannot defend itself, then you must also be the toolbox-protector for your child, if the child is being abused in some manner. Same goes for any pets you may own. 

Respect? Yes. Respecting others rights as humans is vital. 

Love? That depends on your definition.  If you meant 'care' then imo that is also about respecting rights and desiring what is best for a fellow human being. For example, If a human (any human) needs to have an ambulance called for them, then in care call emergency services.

'Caretaking' is entirely different than 'care' and 'love'.  Caretaking is a liability to ourselves.  I highly recommend you read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist' by Fjelstad to learn the difference. 

Again, hike on up to the Toolbox tab and pitch your tent there.  Keep coming back home to base camp at the Toolbox. 

SoT

[harsha_nails]

Thanks @SonofThunder.
I have been using the toolbox and grey-rocking hard. It has been more than one week of freeze out but I am holding my own. My wife said she is "considering" couples therapy because I had asked if we could talk in front of a third party (after initially rejecting it multiple times).

Is it going to be helpful at all?
Now she texted me asking me to send her "a list of things in the past that are classified as abusive to you". I am not sure what to reply, like does she seriously not remember the times that she has been verbally and physically abusive? 

[escapingman]

Harsha nails,

If your wife is an uPD you setting boundaries is not going to make her "better", but it would de escalate the situation from YOUR side. When I started setting boundaries and went grey rock and MC my uNPDxw tried any way she could possible think of to penetrate my boundaries, so she actually got worse.

We also tried couples therapy, I knew it wouldn't help but thought what the heck have I lasted so long I might as well do the last bit as well. The therapy only ended up as a one our a week complaining session where uNPDxw told the therapist about all MY faults and what I did wrong. As I was MC in the sessions I didn't react and she cried like a baby in front of the therapist about how mean I was to her.

But to the most important bit here, you have a 2 year old child. Your job is to protect this child from abuse, never leave the child on it's own with uPDw if you at all can help it. Any abuse at all is not acceptable and I would strongly advice recording any abuse and call the police if it gets to it. You have the chance to save your baby.

Stay strong and don't let the abuse continue just because you already invested in the relationship, you will only invest more and more and more and more.......

[square]

On the "tell me how I have abused you" thing, I'd say I'd told her before and will not be going into it again, and then broken record that over and over asshe inevitably picks and pushes. She'll also likely announce that apparently there was no abuse since you won't produce a list, and I would emotionally prepare myself to ignore this bait.

There is no good that can come from complying with that demand - the list will be weaponized.

[moglow]

Now she texted me asking me to send her "a list of things in the past that are classified as abusive to you". I am not sure what to reply, like does she seriously not remember the times that she has been verbally and physically abusive? 

Do not go gentle into that good night! Remember always that anything you say and do, can and will be used against you if she so chooses, so choose your own wisely. Any list you might provide will be picked apart for her own reality or fabrication, anything mistakenly left off the list will be seen as unimportant and/or therefore a lie should it come up later. You've had the conversation, repeatedly, and going over it yet again doesn't change those answers. I liken this to a form of sleep deprivation, where they just cannot let it rest as spoken. It must be examined minutely for flaws.

We're human and therefore flawed, all of us. That doesn't make your experience any less important.

[SonofThunder]

I implore you, DO NOT share a list. This is being said from experience.

Years ago, I documented abusive incidents and attempted to show uPDw the error of her ways multiple times by explaining the incidents.

It does not work.

Every word I said made it worse. Incidents were twisted around to be my fault. I was gaslit. Things were minimized, deflected, DARVO. Half the time what started as an explanation of her abuse ended up with me apologizing for "hurting her". Crazymaking!

Nothing you say will make any difference. Nothing.

Don't share the list. Make the list if it will help YOU, but absolutely do not share it.

+1

SoT

[blunk]

I cannot agree more with what others have said...DO NOT EVER SHARE A LIST.

Please know that I am speaking from experience. It was before I was Out of the FOG. My dxBPDxh asked (read demanded, screamed, and hounded) that I make a list of all of the hurtful/abusive things that he had done. There was never any acknowledgement or apology. It actually made things SO MUCH WORSE. It was like handing him a playbook on how to hurt me. There were things that had not happened in some time, and it was like he thought...ooh I forgot about that one, I should do that some more.

I would also caution, for much the same reasons, if you keep a journal make sure that it is kept in a safe place where it cannot be found by the PD.

[Oleander]

Regarding couples therapy, it doesn't hurt to try but establish your goals in advance. I recently sent an individual email to our couples therapist to fill her in on the real story because I didn't think she was fully getting it and I had to be so careful in sessions to avoid H shutting down. She might schedule some individual sessions. Funnily, up to now, she focuses almost entirely on him, and he has started to get frustrated with it. Anyway, he HAS engaged with therapy. Impossible to know whether it is in earnest, or because he likes the attention, or because he wants to give the appearance of being a good guy 'for the record' (i guess he thinks there is an invisible lawyer in the room taking everything down for the record because he mentions it a lot?). But I can say that it has carried over to our lives in some positive ways, so a dual manipulative / earnest motivation may be at play. Anyway, it will only hurt your bank account to try.

[harsha_nails]

I implore you, DO NOT share a list. This is being said from experience.

Years ago, I documented abusive incidents and attempted to show uPDw the error of her ways multiple times by explaining the incidents.

It does not work.

I did not share a list because it was a ridiculous demand. Thanks for all the advice.
I am still grappling with "What if I am wrong about my wife's condition?" phase. It doesn't happen everyday but when it happens there is no coming out of it until I say some form of "It's my bad/the root cause of the hurt is because of something I did, I understand and I am sorry".
I am still struggling with:
What if it is just an anger problem and now that we have our child, what if this prevents her from crossing such lines again?

She is doing individual therapy(online) and so am I. Although she constantly uses this phrase "My therapist told me xyz so what I'm feeling is valid"  when I try to talk to her.  I have NEVER had a problem with feelings, it is your actions that hurt! - I want to scream that, but I stay quiet and exit the conversation if I feel angry.

But, for now I am continue to MC and grey rock.