Daughters tantrum episodes getting worse

starthealing2 · September 05, 2024, 12:28:21 AM

So I have mentioned in a previous post some, but my 9 yo has been having these tantrum/anger 'episodes' mostly at night, but now they are happening mostly anytime. She has gotten increasingly worse over the last 3-4 months, which coincides with me finally calling out my husband on his verbal/emotional abuse to me throughout our marriage and throwing divorce on the table. These last few months have been hell for all of us as we are trying to navigate through this. She started first by being 'afraid' of her room. She also sleeps with her 4 yo sister. Couldn't get her to sleep in there without her freaking out and screaming and she'd end up with me. Then she and her sister moved into a different room and the 'being afraid' kind of drifted away, but she will wake up several times through the night often and sometimes throw fits at bedtime. So it seems that the nights I am at work (I work night shift 3 nights/week) she goes to bed and sleeps the night for my husband. She states its because she's scared of him, he says he just disciplines and gives consequences if she gets up. Then the nights I am there and she is SO glad I am home, but those are the nights she usually freaks out or wakes up several times through the night. She insists that I sleep up stairs in the room next to them (which is ok since I haven't been sleeping with my husband for the last few months). Lately her tantrums get so bad she screams, runs amuck around the house throwing things and now has even laid her hands on my or my husband. she has thrown some things at us as well. She mostly is mad at him, but lately she's been including me as well. The counselor she sees has been walking me through how to try and help her, but nothing stops these tantrums. My husband only escalates them when she is so upset and he yells back and gives her consequences in the moment (which the counselor has said to wait til she calms down because nothing is getting through to her atm) and he's even said he's going to have her taken to a mental home or call the cops to have them take her somewhere. My heart is breaking for her. She has been scaring her 11 yo brother with her actions and screaming, also scares her 4 yo sis with the screaming. The pediatrician had us try hydroxyzine for sleep, but it hasn't seemed to help. She is now suggesting a low dose of Zoloft for her to maybe help calm her down some. The other issue she isn't talking much to the counselor. The few things she's said is she's scared of her dad. But we don't know to what extent because of course he is mean and gives her consequences. I mean I even am scared of him when hes mad cause hes loud and threatening, but he's never ever laid his hands on anyone and don't think he would. The other night she kept screaming 'no dad, no dad, no dad, over and over again and didnt want to sleep unless he was out of the house, but then wouldn't let me put her to bed either and eventually got mad at me. Of course he thought I put this in her head but I didn't. And then other times she cuddles with him and is close so I think she is very very confused. Probably with the divorce and me leaving for work a lot and he always is home...we think maybe she's afraid I won't come home or something and thats why she can't sleep well when I am there. But with her not talking much to the counselor its hard to now exactly. Has anyone considered zoloft for their kids at that age?? I feel like its just a band aid when the real issues I am sure have to deal with the situations at home. I am also worried what it does to a developing brain, but also her fits are getting so terribly awful and now physical. :/ I know my husband probably has undiagnosed mental issues, which worries me that she is headed that way if we can't get her to talk things out and work through this... super worried for her. And also the other kids that are watching her.

doglady · September 05, 2024, 04:43:11 AM

Hi starthealing2

I've just read this post and I was very concerned about your daughter, so I then read all your other posts before posting a response here.

The replies you've had already on your other posts are extremely insightful and they virtually all point out that this is a highly abusive relationship you are in. I would agree.

I would be highly doubtful that your husband will ever change as he has shown these patterns of behaviour for so many years. I know we don't offer diagnoses here, but Cluster B personality disorders might be worth a Google to provide some more information.

I am very scared for you and your children based on your descriptions of your husband's highly disordered behaviours, which he apparently has no real motivation to change in a sustained manner. His drinking, his threats to throw a child out of a car or call police, his coercive control, his sustained emotional and verbal abuse, his refusal to get work, his apparent and convenient inability to recall the awful things he has said while drunk, his extreme emotional dysregulation, his cruelty to your daughter, his (potential?) violence and your fear of him. These behaviours are all massive red flags. Despite all this you refer to him a 'good person and father.' Well, it is true that not all disordered people are bad all the time. Sometimes they can be 'good' or they can perform it at least for a while. However, he sounds very disordered and dangerous for a significant amount of the time.

You mention that calling your husband out has coincided out with an escalation of your daughter's behaviours. Of course it has, because your husband presumably won't have a bar of hearing anything that doesn't make him happy and he therefore escalates his rage. Your daughter is then increasingly terrified. I was very scared just reading about this guy. I can only imagine what it's like to be a child in the same house with him.

I work with many traumatised children in schools in my line of work and her behaviours are literally screaming that she is traumatised. She is nine. The cause seems obvious. The ongoing stress and culture of fear (and as others have alluded to, possible sexual abuse) in your household is more than a little girl can or should have to handle.

I hope your daughter's counsellor is aware of all that's going on. I hope that you will be able to make decisions that are in the best interests of your children and that you will prioritise their immediate needs and safety. I wish you and your children well. Please keep posting.

notrightinthehead · September 05, 2024, 06:24:53 AM

Start healing2, your daughter is acting up. The situation you describe is an abusive father, a mother who feels guilty for having to leave the kids with him, and a middle child, 9 years old, who might be frightened that her family falls apart.
I have mentioned sexual abuse before, and you thought this was not a possibility. Your child gives you a hard time, and that on top of all the other burdens you have to bear. You are the sole breadwinner for the family, you have an abusive partner who sees no wrong in his behaviour, you might consider leaving him and don't know how you could juggle this all.
I feel so sorry for you, you are in a bad situation.
You wrote, your daughter does not speak up. However, she is 9 years old. She already does try to make sense and understand a lot of what is going on. I would take some one on one time with her, leave the house, go someplace safe, calm, and then ask her why she is doing what she is doing. And being afraid would not be enough, I would ask her to describe how that feels like, what makes it worse, what makes it better. What exactly triggers it.
I would try to get to the bottom of it. And then I would explain my situation. Having to work, so that the family can eat. Being unhappy with Dad, because of how he behaves, being sad to leave her alone at night but having to do it because otherwise we would not eat or have a home. Being scared because of what is happening to her.
I would try to get more closeness with her, build trust. Maybe you can help her through this hard time.
Is there any hope for you on the horizon? Will you find a safe space for yourself and your kids in the near future? Are your emergency bags packed? Have you found the address of the nearest women"s shelter? Or notified a friend that you might have to pitch up in the middle of the night with your kids?

starthealing2 · September 05, 2024, 06:25:51 AM

Thank you for your concern and posting. I say good man and father in the sense that he has always just been verbal and never actually followed through on threats he makes (like throwing the kids out of the car). I really have never actually thought he would, its just always the type to 'put the fear in them so they behave' kind of guy. Tough love as he says sometimes. And sexual abuse does not even seem remotely possible in this situation. I do believe that he would never go there and I think my daughter would be able to tell me if there was something off like that or she certainly would have told me if hes been violent since she already calls him out with the verbal stuff. She sure stands up to him like she's not afraid of him. Like for me, I just back down and be quiet so I don't cause any waves or he can't go on if I don't say much. She will deliberately stand up to him... like when he says don't throw another lego at me and boom, she doesn't even think twice and she does. That makes me feel like she also isn't 'too' afraid of him. I have showed the counselor recent videos from the other night and her saying 'no dad'. She is not fully convinced yet that she isn't playing the two of us, and since she will get mad at me as well, or also that she just isn't 'afraid' of him because he is loud and gives consequences. I wish she would say more in counseling but she is real quite. What made me sad yesterday was my mom was doing her weekly 'facetime bible study' with her and she told me that she was reading her some stories and watching her face and that she wasn't showing any emotion when she thought she should. Like really flat affect. Makes me feel like she really is depressed/having anxiety stress. I am so sad for her and the other kids that are being affected. So I don't know if the zoloft is a good idea for now to help her and maybe calm her so she can start talking to the counselor and me and the pediatrician can also refer to psychiatry, but i don't think itll do any good if she wont talk at all. And I dont know if her getting mad at me now is because I have to leave for work a lot, or if she is mad I am with him, or if she's mad about the whole divorce talk or what? We are just having major struggles. And he has turned a big corner and listened to the counselor about some things and has been more attentive and nicer and he hasnt drank since mothers day....but I am not convinced of any big changes for sure!!!

Marianne · September 05, 2024, 08:53:47 AM

Sorry for the situation you and your daughter are in.

It reminds me of me as a kid...yelling at mum.

I was sexually abused and this was my first thought too. I never told because of the shame and the fear of harming my family.

I also was verbally abused by mum and dad just chose her side. I felt rejected.

With the fear of the bedroom I would really try figure out more before thinking csa can't be an option.

Also, I would be very hesitant of Zoloft. As an adult this deregulated me majorly with starting (mania and impulsivity and blunting) and stopping (major breakdown). And it blocks processing of trauma.

I think safety...making sure she knows you do not reject her but really see her...and emdr...are needed.

My granny told me once she loved me very much, she knew it was not okay what happened to me at home, and offered to stay there. This was the only time someone saw me...and it saved my life. Can you give her recognition for the abuse and tell her it isn't her fault? Is there any safe family where she'd want to stay? Or you all without husband? She needs to get away from him to calm down. You cannot process trauma when the trauma didn't end yet.

Lookin 2 B Free · September 05, 2024, 09:51:42 AM

Wow, Start Healing. The things you know about are terribly traumatizing (threatening to throw them out of the car, etc.). I don't know any professional who wouldn't call that severe emotional abuse. Have you thought of talking to a different counselor or go ahead with the psychiatrist? Even if your daughter doesn't share much, they may be able to see through the situation and her trauma responses to it, which her current therapist doesn't seem to be doing from what I gather from your sharing.

I wouldn't expect a child to share when they're being threatened and terrorized by someone they are trapped in a home with. If he uses such extreme threats for normal "discipline," imagine what he might threaten to keep her quiet about something like sexual abuse. It's not uncommon to hear that abusers have told the child they will murder the whole family if she tells.

If you were seeing a real emergency, like get out of the situation TODAY and stay out, or someone might be seriously hurt or killed, what would you do? It would be hard, but there would be something you would do to save your children. It's not impossible to stop this trauma today.

I hope you and your children find someone very soon who will see the severity of this situation and make it stop. It doesn't sound like you are getting support for this right now. I'm glad the counselors my child and family saw were all in agreement -- do not let the dad spend one more minute alone with this child. It's what I needed to hear and what needed to happen.

Please keep posting and letting us know how you're doing.

square · September 05, 2024, 10:36:14 AM

I am glad you are posting here.

I was highly alarmed reading what you wrote, and that says something given the topics we regularly discuss here. We don't have a habit of making mountains out of molehills around here.

Your daughter is telling you quite clearly that something is very wrong. This is how nine year olds say it.

Her throwing a Lego after being told not to is not any evidence that she is not really afraid. In fact, it is among the typical responses of a very afraid child who is being systematically psychologically crushed. Perhaps she is trying to hold on to her very last shred of agency. Perhaps she is trying to trigger his rage in a manner that feels relatively safer so that later, he is less likely to rage worse.

So many things about what you wrote closely parallel the experiences and behaviors of my abused and traumatized teen best friend.

I do not know if sexual abuse is happening, but I must tell you that you have described the symptoms of sexual abuse. You have also described not just the symptoms of other abuse, but having actually witnessed it firsthand.

That she acts out on the nights you are home, rather than being evidence that abuse is not happening, is in fact what one would fully expect from a nine year old being abused. Her father is not the person for her to try to get help from, it's you.

To you, she will cry for help, cling, show you how she is breaking. To him, she will display a seemingly erratic mixture of shutting down, pushing back, and any odd behaviors that sometimes show some mercy from him (which depends on him, but could include acting babyish, cuddling and even "flirting," teaming up with him to put others down including maybe you, and anything else that pleases or calms him).

Also, keep in mind that him reporting that she slept calmly through the night with no problems does not mean that is in fact what happened.

And finally, the expected behavior of a child who has just been sexually abused is to shut down and go to sleep and escape the nightmare.

But even if there is no sexual abuse going on, there is very serious abuse here, and it's an emergency on the level of going nuclear.

If nothing else, perhaps consider installing a hidden camera in her room. One that can see in low levels of light, and get a nightlight too. Audio as well if possible. Don't tell him but practice a response in case he finds it. "Trying to figure out her sleeping problems. Wanted to see if she was sleepwalking or something."

starthealing2 · September 05, 2024, 06:58:11 PM

Thanks all for the comments. I really appreciate all the help. We actually do have cameras in the kids bedrooms so I do see that she sleeps through the night with her sister together. He comes in and tells them goodnight and the girls read books to each other for a bit and then they go to bed. Last night he even 'listened to the counselor' and laid down and read a book with them to spend time with them instead of his usual quick goodnights and stay in bed. I have never seen any sort of marks on any of my children ever or see them with any kind of abuse symptoms physically to really believe that physical or sexual would be happening. Honestly if he ever got physical I think it would be me that he did before he ever would touch a child. He has been so tearful these last few months while we've been going through our changes of seeing where our relationship is going. We don't sleep in the same bed. I mean he wants to and I 'tried' but my daughters want me upstairs in the room next to them on the nights im home so that keeps us sleeping separately.
So he used to not be so involved with the kids stuff even as a stay at home but ever since our big blow up in May where I decided to put divorce on the table, he has since stopped drinking, does stuff around the house (laundry, cleaning, dinner, grocery shopping, errands, etc)...things that I always had to do on my days off. He also spends hardly any time on his laptop anymore and actually plays with the kids. During the summer he would take them to the pool, golfing, arcade, etc... now he just makes sure they aren't having much screen time and they play more stuff around the house. He's started going to all the sports games, school stuff, etc. I mean he'd definitely doing sooo much more than he ever has...trying to show that he's 'changing.' He does manipulate the couples counseling I feel (we've only had 2 so far) as far as he always says HIS side to things which he will somehow twist the way an event happened so crazy different than what really happened, it makes me feel like I'm crazy sometimes!

He definitely has days that he's more depressed about us possibly ending and cries more, but he also has days where he is more upbeat. Like today I had a doctor visit for a bit of a medical scare and he had flowers and dinner, which he'd never really do before...and was tearful.
All that to say... I am not getting sucked in to the fact that 'he's changed' because I definitely see a ton of ways he has not...it just really is hard for me to believe that anything more than the verbal/emotional abuse is happening in the house. But obviously that is not good either, but it isn't like 24/7. And since I called him out it is definitely farther in between times he does. He really doesnt at all with our 11 yo son anymore because they have gotten pretty close now... which makes me a smidge nervous that he is feeding his brain things that I don't love. The 4 yr old I feel like she can do no wrong in his eyes. He 'saves' her from the middle child during her tantrums and she is just the spunky go with the flow one. Lately he just butts head with me or with the middle girl when she starts in on her attitudes and things....

Anyhow, I just rambled so much. I have not slept much and I am at work for the night so my head is a bit mush...just hard trying to sort through thoughts sometimes. Thank you all for the support.

Defiantdaughter1 · September 09, 2024, 12:09:34 PM

She's afraid of her dad. I know the feeling. She's got terrible anxiety. She's throwing tantrums because she's angry, scared, and nervous. It builds up until she explodes.

Rebel13 · September 09, 2024, 03:00:19 PM

Quote from: Defiantdaughter1 on September 09, 2024, 12:09:34 PMShe's afraid of her dad. I know the feeling. She's got terrible anxiety. She's throwing tantrums because she's angry, scared, and nervous. It builds up until she explodes.

I completely agree, Defiantdaughter1. She's trying the only way she has to tell her mom there's an emergency. If it were another kind of emergency--if a tree fell through the roof of the house, or the house flooded -- no one would ignore it. Things would be done to solve the problem, even though it would be difficult and inconvenient. This little girl could be the canary in the coal mine, expressing feelings other family members have but are suppressing. Or, she could be the target/scapegoat. I mentioned before, I recently read "Believing Me," the memoir of Ingrid Clayton, PhD, where she talks about her stepfather playing the children off against each other and being scapegoated, as part of his process of grooming her -- and physical/sexual abuse were not involved. Here is a video where she talks a little bit about that part of her story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VofrCehgZQ

If you read the book, this family system wasn't good for any of the children, not just Ingrid who was scapegoated. Both of her brothers, who were preferred and prized and petted and rewarded by the stepfather, had many difficulties in later life -- at least one of them struggled with alcoholism/addiction. Being the golden child of an abuser isn't really much better than being the scapegoat, but it's hard for kids to see that while it's happening.

starthealing2, I am glad you are not trusting your husband's changed behavior. There's a word for what he is doing -- "lovebombing." There's another term for the special credit expected/demanded by entitled people when they do what decent humans around the world do as a matter of course -- "bitch cookie."

https://www.chumplady.com/have-a-bitch-cookie/

He's doing chores and paying attention to the kids? That's the MINIMUM that ANY decent parent does on the daily. Disordered/abusive people can maintain "good behavior" for a period of time when their system of supply is threatened, but there will always be cracks, and/or the worst behavior will go underground -- and they can't maintain it forever. At best, they maintain until they find another meal ticket, and then THEY leave.

I am glad his changes are making your life easier, but since your daughter's distress is getting worse, obviously it isn't making a positive difference for her. I hope you find a way to get yourself and your kids away from this abuser.

starthealing2 · September 09, 2024, 11:34:45 PM

Thank you for your response...so the thing that throws everyone off including myself, is that the nights he has them and I work she goes to bed 'perfectly.' I can watch on the cameras like I just did. He has started to read the girls a book first (as the counselor and I recommended to spend quality time with them, and not just the kiss goodnight and stay in bed and leave). So he reads a book, gets up says goodnights, kisses, hugs and then leaves. The girls lay there and read to each other some and then they go to bed. And she stays in bed ALL night. My nights are NEVER like that. The last 2 I was home and both had tantrums. I am trying to be 'unified' with him as the counselor recommends, so I attempted to not stay in there until they fell asleep and just read, sang and then tried to say goodnight (which I prepped with her all day) and then when I was getting ready to leave she flipped out. The tantrum started...she was mad at me, but then wanted me...ended up in my bed (with consequences...as suggested by the counselor if there is no way to get her back to bed) by the end of it. When I have asked why she goes to sleep well with him and stays in bed she says 'shes afraid to get out.' But she sleeps all night!!! It doesn't make sense... Is she just afraid of his consequences?? But she gets them for ending up in my bed as well whether its the beginning of the night or in the middle of the night like last night. If she is TRULY scared of him why does she do just fine on his nights?? It makes him believe his nights and his way are perfect because they work.
Then last night I guess he gave her melatonin before I got home to put them to bed, which isnt abnormal...but apparently he gave her an adult dose!! 10 mg adult capsule. She had fell asleep on the couch before i even got home. I had no idea. She woke up when we moved her to bed but the fell asleep pretty quick. So she went to bed well for me, but woke up by 1am freaking out. I didnt know he gave this until I came downstairs. I had him show me and sure enough the warning label said not for under 18! He didn't think it was an issue because he always overtakes meds himself and figured melatonin was totally fine... I called poison control after he went to bed just in case to ease my mind. It was fine and ended up ok. So tonight I told him before work if you give her one make sure its the kid one and showed him the bottle. He said thanks but I don't need it tonight (meaning because its his night and he doesn't have issues.... ). So ya.... I just don't get why mine are so so bad and he doesn't even get one cry or fit or anything at all... and on the camera she generally looks happy enough

Poison Ivy · September 10, 2024, 06:16:44 PM

I'm sorry you're in this frustrating situation. In my opinion, the most concerning issue is that your daughter is afraid of her father. The fact that he's using fear to get results is not a positive. If the only issue were that your daughter sleeps better when it's her dad's night to put her to bed, his different approach might be a positive. But that's not the only issue.

Lookin 2 B Free · September 13, 2024, 10:29:27 PM

The game of every abuser -- get everyone to focus on something or someone- anyone!- other than themselves so they will be left alone rather than be held accountable..

SH2, it sounds like you are trying to be cooperative, trying to trust that this counselor knows what they're doing. I don't blame you for questioning that. It does sound as if your counselor has been successfully FOGged by your uPDH which is contributing to your own confusion about whether what he tries to convince you is reasonable actually is.

He has successfully made your poor young daughter, who is living in fear of a scapegoating bully, the "identified problem" in this family (and maybe you, too, to some extent) .... while her abusive father is willing to make a few changes, throw a bone here and there, and dump the rest of the responsibility on her and then punish her for being so afraid!.

I can tell you for a fact that there are children who are terrified of consequences and so go lie in bed perfectly still while they are petrified. This was part of my history as a child and I'm sure many others. If there had been a camera on me, I would have appeared to have gone to bed perfectly and fallen asleep quickly, though I laid awake kind of physically paralyzed by fear until exhaustion brought sleep. It's a nightmarish experience for a child to have to go through.

You know her father is emotionally abusive, especially to her. This is not in question. This means you have a traumatized daughter who is trapped in a home with an abuser. Even if it is "only" emotional abuse, that can be terrifying and very scarring.

You may read on this forum how often counselors are taken in by the maneuvering of the abuser. Yes, they're credentialed and doing their best. But someone who doesn't see through what's happening can be worse than no help; they can unwittingly become an enabler of the abuser. It happens with counselors more than you would think. Can you consult with a professional who specializes in abuse and trauma, even if you have to do it without your husband's knowledge? Find someone online if there's no one in your area? Call a domestic violence number if you have to as they often have free resources and special training in this?

It sounds like uPDH has the counselor onboard to act like this is mainly either an "uncooperative child" problem or a "Mom isn't being firm enough" problem. And that you're trying to go with their program, but some part of you knows better. There are professionals who understand these kinds of situations and can cut through the BS. I hope you can get the support of one! Please keep letting us know how you're doing. We care about you and your family!

P.S. Other than it's what uPDH wants, I don't get why it's so important that your abused daughter must be deprived of being in the room with the one person she feels safe with at night. Why is this the big issue instead of addressing what is causing her fear and trauma, (which is the root of her sleep problem in the first place?) I don't understand, unless it's just everyone catering to uPDH who will blow his stack if he doesn't get his way. Why not wait until she's in a situation that no longer feels threatening to her before trying to help her learn she can sleep without you? (Being unified with a spouse is something that works with non-abusers. Who wants to unify with an abuser? )

Call Me Cordelia · September 19, 2024, 09:56:33 PM

What square said, a thousand percent. That was me as a kid around that age. I would try to get my mom to help me. I would try to "manage" my dad and get the rages and "spankings" out of the way at a convenient time, or else tap into the fawn response so I could increase my chances of being allowed to go to a class party or something like that. I also laid awake terrified for hours on a regular basis.

I also agree that your daughter is being made into the "indentified patient." She is not the problem, the abuse is the problem. Don't teach her how to live with the constant trauma more conveniently for you, get her safe, please.