Relationship Advice/Perspective Wanted

[Chickadee123]

Hi, all! I'm new to the community, and joined specifically the Working on Us forum!

Background: My dad, ex-husband, and other prominent folks in my past all had patterns of narcissism, misogyny, and control. I have a PTSD diagnosis, and I am a repeat survivor of gender-based assault and abuse (in family, religious, and professional settings). Bottom line...lots of trauma. It's hard for me to navigate relationships even though I've done SO MUCH THERAPY.

Over this summer I started dating a guy who seems really nice, laid back, and --best of all-- kind. No red flags until recently. I don't know if I'm being realistic or not... Could y'all help me check the facts? (Names have been changed and communications have been paraphrased.)

Rob is introverted and "nerdy," like me. He doesn't talk much, which is a positive to me. The following interactions occurred in quick succession which suggest to me a problematic trend:

1. He mentioned he liked a certain movie, which I described as "a guy movie" because it's filled to the brim with violence, and the only female character is a flat character with no purpose other than to bed and soothe the male protagonist. Rob argued that it's not a "guy movie" and that movies don't have a gender. I argued that, if movies don't have a gender, then the Bechdel Test wouldn't exist. He blamed peoples' urge to label movies as "guy/girl" movies comes from their own ignorance. (I interpreted this as him defending a misogynistic point of view. Essentially he suggested my dislike for a violent movie where a woman is objectified comes from my ignorance. As a woman who's mental health has been demolished by male objectification, this was very hurtful.)

2. We were hanging out at my house, which I own in my name--a huge victory for me, given my background. I've had a stalker, had to move neighborhoods, and Rob is the first guy I've let inside this house! Safety is very important to me. As we were simply putting together a new reptile tank for my pet, I bent over to pick up a tool off the floor. Rob said, "You can't do that!" Implying that he interpreted this simple, necessary bodily movement in a sexualized manner, and then blamed/controlled me for his sexual interpretation of a non-sexual action. As a SA survivor who has endured victim blaming, this put me over the edge. It was very upsetting. I couldn't even speak. After a minute, I said, "I can do what I want." He gave me a hug.
3. When we are intimate together (it's been about 5 times), he has never demonstrated or mentioned any interest in, or even awareness of, my pleasure or my experience. He moves in his own self-interest, quickly, and stops when he is done, and that's it. The first couple times we were together, I assumed he was feeling shy (I was, too). But things didn't change over time. I've had too many bad experiences in this department (including partners who have point-blank TOLD me that my pleasure didn't matter, or those who demonstrated the same mindset by operating without my consent). So, while Rob isn't that bad, the experience still feels like I'm being used and objectified, rather than treated like an equal who is cared for.

After losing sleep for a few nights, stewing over these three items, I texted him to let him know I was struggling. I gave a long explanation of why the intimacy imbalance was hurtful to me, how it made me feel like a non-person, and how it wasn't in line with my relationship goals. I thought I would let him think it over and we could talk about it in person. But his responses went more or less like this:
1. For the movie conversation, he said in hindsight he doesn't actually agree with his statements during that conversation. He didn't know why he was so sensitive about it at the time. (No apology.)
2. For the bending over issue, he said he "thought about" apologizing, but he worried that bringing it up again would be painful for me. (No apology.)
3. For the intimacy thing, he said he didn't know how to navigate that, or how to know what I wanted. He doesn't want to "come across as objectifying." He cares about me, and he was really sorry for not prioritizing me, and he was glad I communicated my concerns.

I wasn't overly satisfied with these answers. He didn't just "come across" as objectifying. His behavior was, to me, clearly objectifying. A fact. I also felt "icky" that he thanked me for communicating my concerns, but didn't acknowledge the hurt i'd endured and didn't offer any path towards change or making amends. The comment about now knowing how to navigate incorporating my pleasure into our time together was just baffling to me.

Then, while I was trying to process all this, he sent one more text: asking permission to open up about his emotional journey over the last several years, which "correlates" with these issues. I presume he thinks he can say something about his emotional landscape that will justify this behavior and make me think better of him? I worry that this will just be an immature attempt to defend his own ego. Rather than asking for my forgiveness or trying to shift the focus of our relationship to include both of us equally, he wants to explain/defend himself and shift the focus FURTHER onto himself.

Am I being unreasonable? Is this just typical immaturity, or am I dealing with yet another narcissist? At this moment, I don't care about his emotional journey. All I want is a partner who cares about me, for once. (But I reserve the right to change my mind!)

- Chickadee

[Poison Ivy]

IMO, if these behaviors bother you, it doesn't matter whether they're caused by immaturity or narcissism or something else. It might be a good time to hit "pause" or to slow down in the relationship.

[xredshoesx]

welcome to the forum chickadee123


my dating experience is limited but one thing i learned out there on those mean streets is just because there are no obvious red flags doesn't mean the person you're interested in is worthy of you and your time.

i think you are spot on in feeling icky about this guy and it was very kind of you to give him a chance to either make it right or do better.  his responses don't indicate either is going to happen and that he wants to share some deeper stuff with you so that you'll give him a pass on any/ all of these types of behavior in the future.

the other thing i learned about while dating is sometimes you can have great chemistry with someone for the initial meet up and all that, but they may not have the stuff within themselves to sustain an adult romantic relationship (for whatever reason, PD or not PD).

it may be time to cut your losses with him and keep it moving- also feel PROUD of you for advocating for yourself and what you need!  that is the win here no matter what the future holds with this one.

[moglow]

Yeah I'm kinda put off for you. You've not been dating all that long (given we're facing the end of summer) and to me one is/is anticipated to be on one's best behavior. If this is his best, I find it limited and unsatisfactory.

His comment that people who label guy/girl movies are ignorant? He said that to you, after you'd made direct reference to what you considered a guy movie. Maybe he was hiding his own ignorance of bechnal test but still. Low blow from someone you're dating.

Sex five times and he's shown no apparent interest in you, what you want or like, what's good or not for you? That's who he is. Again may be ignorance or maybe doesn't see past himself. Not appealing.

But this: "At this moment, I don't care about his emotional journey." I would think that tells you where you are with him, whether for right now or in general. What he is or isn't, really wouldn't come into question for me anymore.

[Breadroll]

Possibly just immature and selfish - lot of young men ( and older ones) with very limited empathy- and no incentive to behave differently if it's working ok for them. It isn't your job to educate a fully grown man (wish I could go back in time!)

That feeling you get, questioning yourself- trying a bit harder- is exactly what he wants.  Taking your power back by saying thanks, not working for me but happy to stay friends -might feel better for you.

If he complains about being friend zoned, don't apologize, but thank him for communicating his concerns.......

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

The way he dealt with your feelings about a movie is a red flag in my opinion. Those are your thoughts and your perspectives on a movie.

Those thoughts and perspectives cannot hurt him. It is not as if you said he could never watch his favourite movies ever again. He wouldn't lose anything by respecting your beliefs about that movie. But he couldn't do it. Red flag. Huge red flag.

It is a sign of adult maturity to say "I like this, but I respect that you don't like this". And a mature adult will say to a new partner "we won't watch movies that you don't enjoy watching". A mature adult will enjoy finding movies you can both enjoy. A mature adult will want to know which movies you enjoy watching - not do what he did. What he did is very adolescent.

You know who argues like that? Teenage boys. You know what you don't want in a partner? Someone who is still thinking and acting like a teenage boy (look at where he took the conversation when confronted with someone who understands gender and Bechdel Tests)! Been there sister. I once had a similar "argument" with a man I dated, about gender and sports. He is now my ex. I wonder why...lol.

It reveals his level of emotional maturity, that he was unable to respect what you think about that movie. Don't take the bait that he simply had a different take on gender or whatever. The real purpose of that conversation was to build connection as a new couple. And he used it as an opportunity to antagonize you. Red flag!! I wish I had a dollar for every time I missed those red flags in my past! Good for you for seeing it!

It is fine that he was then able to listen to your concerns about that conversation, but you were very smart to note that there was no apology. Dr. Ramani talks about how antagonistic people enter new relationships. Early on in the relationship, they need to learn where they can push us (antagonize) and how we react. If we accept their faux or non-apology for their antagonistic behaviour, they now know they can do it again.

We'll tell them how we felt, and they will be able to say "oh I'm not sure why I did that" and we'll accept it. This is the dynamic they want - a dynamic where they can do antagonistic things that upset us, and we will feel better by telling them it upset us, and they can keep going. Rinse, repeat. We hold out hope they will learn and change. They antagonize us anew.

And he didn't know why he got defensive? He was defending his right to like that movie, and he'll do it again the next time he wants to defend his right to like something you don't like. He doesn't have this insight into his own behaviours. Again, this is on track for someone who is still behaving like a teen. The shift from teen to adult is marked by these very things!! (Stronger self-awareness, and being able to appreciate what others like and what other people feel).

It is in those moments that relationships are either built up or torn down between two people. Relationships are not built on grand gestures, they are built through the on-going exchanges and giving each other respect during those exchanges.

You have more than enough life experience now with how crappy dynamics got set up with immature types in your past. Trust your gut.

His views on that movie sure mattered a lot -but did yours? Your gut picked up on this. So wise!

I don't think you want a long term relationship where that is how you get treated.

He had an opportunity to show respect for your views, your take on the movie, and he blew it. It is in those moments that we see how this person will treat us when we express ourselves.

Over time, it wears us down. We find ourselves going silent instead of sharing what we thought about the movie / restaurant / new song on the radio - not realizing that the origin of that behaviour, was due to their immaturity. We don't have to date full blown narcissists to end up with someone who exhausts us into submission like this. In order to avoid conflict, you'll find yourself letting him say what he thinks about the latest blockbuster, while you are cautious about what you share and say. That is no way to live.

The ex I dated who was immature like this, was not a bad person. He wasn't abusive or a PD, he was just immature. I got tired of long arguments predicated on how important his views on tv / video games / sports were and how casual his dismissiveness was towards me. The years I spent trying to fix our relationship, involved me telling him how I felt, and him hijacking the conversation to then tell me how he felt. Then he called me crazy for feeling angry at being ignored. Holy gaslighting batman!

He did what you describe - as soon as I raised concerns based on not feeling good about the relationship, he wanted the focus to be on his needs. I'm very glad I ditched him (although it was not soon enough and I spent years with this person before ditching him).

A mature person would say "I get it. I hear you...I'm able to enjoy that movie but it's important that we watch movies that we both can enjoy. Thanks for telling me about what sorts of movies you enjoy / don't enjoy" and truly be able to authentically express a desire to know more about you - rather than prattle on about how wrong your feelings are.

There are people out there who know how to respect you in more mature ways than this. That is my 2 cents. Yes the world is full of people like him, but it is worth holding out for someone who has left adolescence and is a mature adult.

Very very good of you to notice these behaviours out of him. That is what self-care and boundaries are all about! Yay you! 

He may not be a narcissist but that doesn't mean he's a fit for you. You want an attuned person who can build safety and true intimacy with you, and a friend who respects you deeply, not a project. I wish someone had told me this years ago when I was dating this type of person.

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

He may not be a narcissist but that doesn't mean he's a fit for you. You want an attuned person who can build safety and true intimacy with you, and a friend who respects you deeply, not a project. I wish someone had told me this years ago when I was dating this type of person.

 

I don't know that any of these are red flags alone or even together when it comes to narcissism. I could write any and all off as simple immaturity/lack of social awareness (though if he's over the age of 30 or so, I'd be less inclined to do that and more inclined to tell you to RUN). That being said, they may very well be red flags when it comes to finding a partner who is a good fit for you.

And it's 100% fair to decide it isn't working out simply because you're at different levels of emotional maturity. It certainly doesn't sound like he's able to meet you halfway, at this point.