OUCH! Holidays are on the horizon

[Lookin 2 B Free]

It all changed at some point after uNPD married into my FOC.  The others either became enablers, scattered, or were excluded.  The FOC (all here in town) no longer functions as a family.  It's all but disbanded.

Holidays begin next month.  Our decades long traditions, which I loved very much, are gone - probably forever.  UNPD isn't interested in sharing in those, either on alternating years or any other arrangement.  And the others either take their marching orders from uNPD or have fled the scene.

What to do.  Share some honest feelings with my adult kids (but not uNPD) and see if they'd be willing to try to carve out an hour or two on those special days for some tea or a walk together (with anyone welcome to join us)?  Just call it a loss and make plans with friends instead ... which would be okay, but leaves me unhappy with my kids?

I'm trying to be braver, risk more, when it comes to sharing my feelings within important relationships.  Particularly hurt.  I always want to hide that.  But that puts a wall between me and my loved ones who are not PDs and that's probably not ideal.  So maybe I'll bite the bullet and get more honest than I have been. They can choose to do whatever they want, but at least they'll understand why if I'm more subdued due to feeling hurt over the holidays

Does that sound reasonable?.

[Cat of the Canals]

I see two separate issues here that are perhaps getting intertwined and mixed up.
1. You would like to spend some time with your kids during the holidays.
2. You are hurt that they have not spent time with you in the past or that the prior traditions have ended (or some of both).

I wouldn't mix these two ideas when extending the invitation for a visit. Keep them separate. If you bring in any of the unhappiness/hurt from previous years into it, I worry that at worst, it will sound like a guilt trip (I'm not saying that's what you're trying to do at all, to be clear!), and at best, it will set a negative tone that sours things before they've even begun. I don't think it's unfair or wrong for your to share those feelings, but I would save that for another time.

It sounds like the joyousness of the past has been overshadowed by a lot of toxicity. Use this as an opportunity to rekindle some of that old joy.

Also, I say this as gently as possible: while they are your FOC, you are their FOO. I have no doubt that some of this is fallout from the PD that married into your family, but some of it may also be that your children now have FOCs and new traditions of their own.

[Pinkos]

I'm a little confused @Lookin2Bfree but if @Catofthe Canals interpretation is correct and that you are hurt that your adult kids are not spending time with you over the holidays...I agree with the gist of their advice. Can you host people at your house? Maybe not on the holiday itself but the weekend before the holiday and invite your kids and close friends over?

Generally, I agree with the idea that expressing hurt feelings sometimes in these situations is not the panacea we are led to believe from self-help books and therapists. I would tread lightly in that regard. I'm sorry you've been in pain and I think many on here will relate to you. Can you vent about these feelings to a close/sympathetic friend instead? The destructiveness of the PDs knows no bounds and it's painful for those of us on the other side watching and feeling powerless to change anything.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Thanks, Cat & Pinko.  Your concerns are the very reason I have gone this long without making a peep. And yes, when we've been together I always make the food to eat here or at their place.  In fact, I never had to offer because uNPD would just order us all around.     TBH, I've been ridiculously and codependently accommodating.

As far as traditions, that's probably a misnomer. Nothing elaborate or time consuming or necessarily confined to the "day of." Just some kind of gathering, brief or not according to their schedules, that's not poisoned with hostility.    I miss the loss, but I intend to stay in the present in my discussions without mention of uNPD or blame, pressure, or drama of any kind.  I tend to stay pretty understated.

It was a very sudden and noticeable change when uNPD got to the devalue (and mostly discard) stage. Sniping and insults and pointed rejection came with it, that 180 degree turn that PDs do when they split you bad, starting first with one of my sons and then spreading..   I don't think anyone knows what triggered it.  It's familiar to me from PDs in my childhood and my ex.  You're good and you matter ... and then suddenly you're nothing, and worse, sometimes forever.

My kids and grandkids still express a desire for us to get together at holidays and other times, and kind of sneak in little times, though it's rare as the monitoring and order-giving over everyone is pretty constant.  This is not subtle or hidden stuff.  (I suppose there's also the baggage of knowing I modeled the enabling with their father in their young years before I left him. I didn't know any better, but I hate that that happened and I imagine it's had an effect.)

As far as sharing hurt,  I well know they have the right to choose and I also know the hurt belongs to me.  It would just be if I requested we spend a little bit of time together (even just one-on-one would be okay) and they said there isn't any time - that it's all taken up (we're talking multiple days here & all in the same town) with the other FOO as has happened before.  And then I'd let them know that I feel some hurt if I do.  Not to try to get them to change and most certainly not to feel guilt, but just to clue them in. After all,  our history is to share feelings openly and honestly with each other and they do it with me as well.  It clears the air. 

My kids and grandkids do express & show their love for me and that they value our time and talks together (rare as they are).  I need to remember that!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Lookin 2 B free,

It's not an easy situation. From what I understand, your adult kids are being manipulated by an uNPD who is very controlling about the holidays.

I guess what I am wondering is, if they say that they can't visit with you, will it be because they are not willing to stand up to the NPD? Is that what happened in the past?

Is it possible for you to say "I know you'll probably have plans around these dates, so I'm wondering if we can make plans to be together on these other dates" (near but not on the holiday) and see what they say?

As someone who went NC and was discarded, I am familiar with the pain of holiday planning after so much loss. It is a tragic loss to have our FOO / FOC relationships damaged so much by an NPD. And the damage is very real for us when it comes to this upcoming holidays season.

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Yes, Trees that's right. They're being manipulated by a controlling uNPD whom they won't stand up to and it has happened in the past but seems to be getting worse each year of late.  It's year round, but more painful at holiday time, to be suddenly left out after years of all family members of both sides (uNPD & me & my kids) being included. Nothing's changed in the way they celebrate; it's exactly the same except some of us have been dropped.

It's a very targeted exclusion.  "Everyone in the family is invited to get together again as usual,  except this one (or more than one) person."  When I first saw it happening to someone else one summer I spoke up on their behalf.  Not long after that I was targeted too.  It's always happening, but most painful on holidays.

This is not NC or LC.  I am contacted very often by uNPD  (and my kids) with requests for my help as well as being told what I should be doing about every aspect of my life (which I ignore).  UNPD has gloated in the past about getting a kick out of dominating situations and people and being in a position to punish - it's great fun, don't you know?  Maybe that's a part of what's going on.

Like many on here, I have PTSD from growing up in a PD disordered home.  These kinds of actions, as well as other hostilities, put me in freeze/ shutdown/ deer-in-the-headlights  mode.  My adult mind, prefrontal cortex, goes completely offline and I can barely talk and just try to escape until I can get past the trauma response.  That's a big part of why I want to clue in my kids if it turns out (again) that zero time will be made available for me anytime close to the holiday. 

Also, I don't like to sit and smile and act like nothing's happening when someone is deliberately trying to hurt others (including myself). I've done a lot of that and it doesn't feel healthy. (Not that I plan a confrontation. Just something proactive with some positive suggestions as you all have said.  Hopefully that will do it. If not, I may let out an "ouch.')

Uugh!  I hate this stuff.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Lookin 2 B free,

I understand. It does suck. Big time. uNPD is calling the shots, and people have two options - fall in line or get targeted for narc abuse.

I watch a lot of Dr. Ramani videos. I find some healing when I hear her validate how much this all sucks for those of us who had narcissists ruin our family connections. Like you said, you don't want to smile and act as if nothing is happening, when you know that there are hurtful things happening. She also has good videos on not unmasking the narcissist, and why it doesn't help.

I also appreciate that she knows that not everyone can end contact with a narcissist in their lives. She comes from that point of view which is so refreshing since, back when I went NC, that viewpoint was not out there yet. At least I couldn't find it. I wonder if some of her videos would help you to feel your way through some of the trauma that this brings up for you.

If I understand your situation accurately, your hope is that your kids and grandkids find time to spend with you during the holidays. And there's a narcissist in the family who will probably work to control their entire holiday experience.

Despite your capacity to see it, you can't solve the problems they face. Just being aware of what is actually going on (narc abuse) doesn't solve the problem. Which is frustrating.

They face the dilemma of either agreeing to whatever the narc tells them to do, or doing what works for them, and risk upsetting the narcissist. From dozens of stories from many of us on the boards, we know that most people caught in that dilemma will not even realize they are caught up in it, because FOG is preventing them from seeing the situation clearly.

The truth teller (you) can see it. You won't be able to not see it. If that makes sense. Your kids and grandkids are in this miserable position of trying to make plans with you, knowing that the narcissist is going to be upset if they do that (if I'm guessing correctly at how this narc operates). Is that accurate?

I had a relative like this. Years ago I tried to host family gatherings with some of my relatives, thinking this is normal and fun and something to do a few times a year. Well one of my narc relatives did not want me to be able to do this. She worked hard to sabotage me every time I tried to get together with people, without including her. It was painful, and traumatic to endure such emotional abuse at the hands of a relative. She just couldn't leave it alone - she had to mess with the relationships people tried to have with each other within the extended family. 

Years later I am still working on how to manage during the holidays. Narc abuse is very very hard on us. We have to find ways to take care of ourselves, given this awful situations. I hate this stuff too.

I also had a parent who actively sabotaged me throughout my life, so I know what it feels like to have someone lurking out there, working to take away anything I might want or need to be happy. More than once, my attempt at enjoying the holidays was actively sabotaged by relatives.

It hurts. I hope we can help you through some of it over the next while. If not for this forum I would not know there are others who have been through what I've been through with narc abuse.

Hang in there,

Trees

[Pinkos]

I want to echo what Trees said. My mother has pretty much isolated me from all family members and relatives. She can not stand it for me to have any contact with relatives outside of her control. I am largely NC with my FOO, which effectively cuts me out of any blood ties/familial connection. And I'm unmarried/no kids. It's extremely painful. I can only imagine what it's like to have someone come between you and your adult children in a similar manner!

I've had to train myself to treat the holidays like it was any other day but it's still painful. It sounds like you still have contact with your children but not as much as you'd like and they're not available to you during the holidays.

It sounds like you have an honest and open relationship with them so it certainly seems appropriate to me that you would express your feelings directly to them. I'm curious as their level of awareness of the dynamic. Do they acknowledge in any way that this person is toxic and coming between you and them? Are they going to go to this person and divulge what you express? It seems like the ball is in their court in a way to stand up for you, their mother, and choose YOU over this person. It could also be a case of it's easier to disappoint you then to disturb the apple cart and be subjected to the PD's wrath. A mother has a lot of sway with her children though, even adult children. Is there a way you can exert your influence to change this dynamic? If you push for them to say no to this person, what do you think they'll do? Does this person provide financial support to them? Will they lose other familial connections if they say no to this person? Is there a second parent involved?

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Thanks Trees and Pinko.  I'm really sorry you're dealing with this, too.

I have never made a peep to anyone about the dynamic, never mentioned that such a thing as NPD exists, or hinted I have a problem with this person.  Nor do I plan to.  Enabler (probably closer to a flying monkey) is all in with uNPD.  There is no crack in my kid's commitment to siding with uNPD, even at the expense of themselves, their own convictions of what is right,  and the welfare of their own kids.  They will not incur the PD wrath for anything.  It's hard to watch.

If they ever do show interest in wondering what's going on or finding another way, I'll be there to whatever degree they want me.  For now that door is locked & I'm under no illusion I could have an effect.  (Other than to start a war which would deprive my grandkids and me of our relationship.)

Any proactive talk I do about maybe finding a little time around the holidays will only be pitched to my kids, not uNPD though they're also invited.  If I am told there is no place/time for me anytime around the holidays and I give an "ouch" it will only be to my kids and not uNPD.

My relationship (if you can call it that) with uNPD is not much more than them trying to exert control over me & everyone and my finding ways to sidestep the landmines and still have some contact with my kids and grandkids. That's what's important to me.  If I am excluded again, I'll probably do a combination of time with friends and some holiday service work.

It had been a long time since I'd listened to Dr. Ramani and the others before today. (Crappy Childhood Fairy was my last go to).  Dr. R has a holiday one "A slice of shame with your meal?"  That nails it.  Even with all I know about this, there's still a part of me that feels like the scapegoated kid who learned she could never be accepted or loved no matter how hard she tried and that she needed to be ostracized.  This reignites that same shame.  It's helpful to see.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Lookin 2 B free,

In reading your last post, another concept comes to mind - something I think I first heard about in a podcast with Dr. Ramani and Mark Vicente talking about narc abuse. The concept was 'moral injury'.

I can't find the video - I do recall it was a long one, maybe an hour or longer discussing narc abuse in detail. The concept 'moral injury' was used to refer to when we (the non-narcissists) have to witness narc abuse happening to others.

It causes us psychological discomfort because we are witnessing something that goes against our own values. For example, finding out that a neighbour is in an abusive relationship but not being able to do anything about it. This can be (if I understand this right) a case of feeling this discomfort, because we are witnessing abuse that we can't stop or do anything about. We feel helpless to prevent harm. For us to manage those emotions is hard, because I think those emotions are there as part of our drive to protect ourselves and others from harm. When we can't do that, the helplessness sits inside of us, feeling icky.

We are probably wired up to feel upset when we see abuse, because as humans we are wired for the preservation of our species - not just our own survival but the survival of our species.

It makes sense that we would feel something inside of us - when we witness others being harmed or abused by narcissism.

We are still wired for living in small tribes and so if someone in the tribe is being abusive, it makes sense that others in the tribe would feel something (i.e. feel upset inside). If enough people feel upset at witnessing narc abuse in their group, they can band together to address it.

But we don't live in that context anymore. Many of us were in families where we were (or are) the only ones who saw the narc abuse as abuse, and we have no mechanism to address it all by ourselves. The narc gets away with their dirty work, rather than being confronted by a critical mass of group members who say "no, you can't do this, it's causing problems". 

It was awful being the only person in an entire extended family system who saw the abuse as abuse. I was the only one. Why was that? Where were the others? Right? That is a problem for us. There's a narcissist in the family system, and we know that even if we speak up, nothing will happen (except punishment to us for speaking up). No one else is ready to see what we see.

When you wrote that it is hard to watch, I guess this concept came to mind for me. It is hard to watch people being harmed by narc abuse. We're not imaging it - its a real thing. It's probably wired into our emotional system. Those who are not willing to see abuse as abuse, are in denial.

I've taken the same stance you describe in terms of trying to 'wake people up'. Nope. If they wake themselves up, and get themselves away from the narcissist, and work to establish some sense of trust with me, and then ask me for my thoughts, I'll share them. But until then...nope.

While they remain bonded to the narcissist, I know how they are going to deal with me. FMs are all about shaming us for not going along with what the narc wants.

I think it is wise of you to keep that door locked while they remain in their bond to the narcissist. For you, it is valuable to preserve the contact you have with your grandkids.

Oooh I watched the video you refer to about Shame during the holidays. I love that she says that this goes deeper than just tolerating narc drama for one day. So true!! It is bigger than the holiday.

It is about the journey of self-compassion after growing up in narc abuse. I don't think this journey ever ends.

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Wow, you touch on a lot, Trees.  Being the only one in the group to see it . . .  Thank goodness for this forum!  Sometimes I've felt like I'm living in an upside down Bizarro World where wrong is right. 

As a kid -- you'd think someone would be grateful that you're willing to clean the filth and grime off a counter surface or floor, but instead you had to sneak out in the middle of the night to do it and hope no one would catch you because you'd get in so much trouble.  Or later -- you aid a helpless small child whose most basic physical need is not being met and someone who is not affected at all by your action becomes furious, as does their FM.    It's crazy-making!

The "moral injury" you're talking about is something I learned about decades ago.  It was called "witness abuse" back then, because when a child had to witness their sibling or parent get abused, it automatically had the effect of abuse on them.  I guess it becomes murky as an adult because you feel like you should do something, but in a PD family you realize intervening can make it worse.  And if the offense isn't something illegal, the pwPD might just escalate the behavior to show you "who's boss." 

It's a bit like dealing with a terrorist, who cares nothing for the welfare of the group and is happy to sacrifice everyone else, including innocent children, just to get what they want.  Those actions are unfathomable to people who have empathy.  And if you're a kid, you naturally think you're responsible for the damage, which the pwPD is happy to lay at your feet.

I'm working on self-compassion, as you said.  Also on getting more comfortable speaking up where it's safe.  Maybe that will help me when working with PD dynamics too.  Because to speak up, you have to go beyond Fear, Obligation & Guilt.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I did it!  I forget about this, but when I'm so tortured about all this stuff from having trauma response set off, I'm usually coming out of a hurt kid place. 

But I pulled out of that and just made a simple request that we find a time to get together around the holiday days here or elsewhere and it didn't have to be on the day and it didn't have to be a big deal.  They said they'll get back to me.

It sounds so simple ... and it was.  I'd had reams of TMI imaginery convos floating around in my head about what being left out brings up for me, and my feelings and fears.  It made me sick to think of going there.  I need to remember to get into an adult space before having these conversations.  I don't even realize that, for a time, I'm emotionally a kid again in an unloving home.

Of course, if it turns out no time can be made for me (as has been happening in recent years) I'll have another bridge to cross.  For now, though, I'm so happy to have this step done!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Lookin 2 B free,

Congrats on doing that first step.

Cheering you on!

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

It took a bit more doing, but we arranged some time together, though not on the holiday day.  I can be grateful that happened.

You mentioned narc abuse in one of your posts, Trees.  How do you relax and have a good time when one of the group is firing off narc abuse?  I understand MC and GR and no JADE.  I can totally avoid hooking into the stuff outwardly.   But inside . . .

It's not that I care a whole lot about how this person views me.  I just feel kind of keyed up about spending time in a group where someone regularly engages in narc abuse.  It's hard to relax and enjoy.  It's kind of like sitting on a sofa that has thorns hidden in it.  You can't just comfortably sink in -- you have to adjust and avoid, or maybe put some closed up armor on the whole time.

I find being around meanness and aggression to be unpleasant.  Most of the people I know are pretty much sweethearts, respectful and caring. I can be open and spontaneous with them without getting zapped.  It makes such a difference.

I get the impression some here can be around narc abuse and it has no impact on them.  Is that true?

 

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Lookin 2 B free,

I am not able to be around narcs and relax. Some people probably do have the ability to be around narcs and not feel bothered but yeah, I'm not one of them.

Like you said, it is unpleasant when we are around them.

I'm glad you were able to arrange a meet up around the holiday.

Trees