Another OCPD trait

[Prototypian]

My set of observed behaviors that are "common" seem to relate primarily to the OCPD disorder.   In my case it's a spouse with extremely high functioning external abilities, intelligence and also non-personal framework and goals.   She isn't out to control me or anyone else, she is out to prevent her rigid framework of world view,norms, mores and rules from getting out of her control and this extends to those around her because the rules are so rigid.  They are irrational to the rest of the world.   It's like the safety rules at your local water Park: the lifeguards are there to ensure that all safety rules are followed and enforced and there are no exceptions.  To the ocpd, this extends to things like loading the dishwasher, accurately describing the weather (it's not hot or cold, the temperature must be defined to tell the story) or disposing of something and whether that is waste or not.

This particular behavior is the difference between shared spaces and surfaces and "personal property".  I talked to my spouse and her hierarchy of "rules" defines personal property as first and absolute.   If she owns something whether it's a coat,or a plate or a receipt or a Newspaper ad or just a pile of rubbish from the car, then she "owns" that.  And in her worldview (I think this is OCPD) this ownership is the absolute highest level of rules.   What it says to her is that it is a violation of the most sacred rules of anyone does something (moving, touching, even clearing it for cleaning) to her property without her express permission and oversight.   I recall one time her leaving a job because of rules that the "employee break room fridge will be cleaned and all food disposed of on Friday evenings".  The cleanliness and order imposed by the group rule of keeping the fridge clean was much further down her hierarchy than the personal property of people's "stuff".   

She couldn't handle it.   Again she is highly functioning, valedictorian in high school, triple major in college, top of her law school and extremely talented at detail-oriented things.   

But she can't handle other people ever touching her stuff.

This leads to massive problems in our home with regard to what I call public spaces.   Countertops, chairs, floors, hallways, workspaces are considered public.   You can use them for whatever.   But if her "owned" stuff gets on them then that ownership supersedes the utility. 

One thing I've learned is to talk to her that the "space" whether it's countertop or office is considered my "property".   I "own" the space so she can't put her "owned things" on it.   It's bizarre but it's the only way I've been able to have uncluttered areas in the house.

So that's my OCPD common behavior realization for the day.

[Cat of the Canals]

One thing I've learned is to talk to her that the "space" whether it's countertop or office is considered my "property".   I "own" the space so she can't put her "owned things" on it.   It's bizarre but it's the only way I've been able to have uncluttered areas in the house.

That's an interesting workaround, and I'm almost surprised it works.

How do her ownership rules apply to your "non-space" property? I seem to recall that you are not allow to throw your own possessions away, or buy things you'd like to have, etc. It seems that somewhere in her rulebook, she has determined that she has jurisdiction over your property as well as her own. If this is the case, then her personal property rules don't seem so absolute. HER ownership takes precedence over everything. YOUR ownership does not.

[Prototypian]

Yeah, Cat of the Canals, the rules do shift.   I had to stop trying to figure the scope out and pick my battles.   This was just the explanation she gave in some couples therapy about why she can not handle when someone cleans up or touches her things.   

Each session I learn something new when I express what frustrations I have had.   And I hear what specifically makes her upset with me: my lack of caring about important rules (meaning things like times I rode my bike on the sidewalk in the park; turns out there is a posted rule against this and every time I rode the kids and the bike trailer to the park she would almost call the police on me).   I didn't even know that was a rule and she said that's exactly what upsets her the most, people go to the work to make and post these rules and others like me don't even have the decency to read them.   

But I also learn the answers to why so many things about our home and life have frustrated me.   She actually has a deep seated framework for many of these beliefs.   Whether it's the social crime of wasting energy by running the dishwasher when something could still be fit in (my personal thought is that it should just be run during the night to have it clean in the morning) or not bothering to read and follow the rules on where to place the garbage cans by the sidewalk.   I'm leaning what makes her so angry.  I'm not able to change the anger but at least I'm learning the actual reasons for the behavior.

[Poison Ivy]

It seems that your wife is very skilled at persuading herself and you that her malignant behaviors are okay because they're based on "actual reasons." I don't think that coming up with or stating these reasons out loud makes the behaviors acceptable.

[square]

I agree with Poison Ivy.

It's not that her background and values have caused her mental illness.

It's that she has a mental illness, and her background and values simply shape its expression.

If she had different values, she might be, say, forcing the family to eat a raw food diet and do regular colon cleanses. But an interest in health would not be the cause of the illness, but merely the root of its expression.

[square]

It's not that her background and values have caused her mental illness.

I stated this clumsily. Her background may have a role in her mental illness (childhood trauma).

But what I meant was that it's not a case of:

She grew up poor -> She cares about sanitation workers -> She's out there measuring garbage can distance to curb

But rather

She's mentally ill -> She expresses it this particular way

[Prototypian]

I agree with all of you.   She has a personality disorder.   I'm not at all rationalizing and approving of her behavior.   But I am learning to understand the things I cannot change.   And I never knew the "why" before. 

What I'm learning with a combination of couples counseling and the things I learn on this forum, are that her behaviors aren't some specific 'choice" she is making.   She has some specific problems and irrational views of the world.   I'm just learning some of the ways I can categorize those behaviors and what things I can do to protect myself mentally and emotionally.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you for explaining a bit more, jsinjin.

[walking on broken glass]

What you say about her job and how high functioning she is makes me wonder: don't these issues arise in her work place too? Are her boss and colleagues that understanding? What happens if she throws a fit about ownership there?

[Prototypian]

As I had said, she once left a job regarding the policy of "the refrigerator will be cleaned out every Friday no matter what".   

Someone asked me about the question of my ownership.   She does have an ultimate set of values that says no waste.   If anything has a potential use now or in the future it can not be disposed of or lost.   That is an ultimate.

She is a lawyer and actually currently makes about 18.00 per hour usd.   For real.   She took the role for the local government housing authority because the director agreed to let her have complete flex time for her role as a local elected official.   That doesn't get paid either but it is her alter ego as a politician.   We are blessed that my career has been fortunate and I have a strong professional background.   She works to be connected to boards, charity organizations etc.   

There have been many fights because the cottage we bought and I renovated (it was for her mother to move into and her mother passed away) could be used for low income housing and I refuse because I have it as an office and my place of refuge.   

But that's a different story.

Her hierarchy is probably the following order:

1) no waste-no wasted electricity, no wasted food, no wasted water, no wasted recycling, no waste or loss of anything that could have a current or future use of any type.

2) personal ownership of "things". As owner of something no one else can touch or use it.   This even extends to moving her car out of the way in the driveway.  She expects to be called and told it is being moved and she gets very concerned someone will misplace her keys or touch the piles of stuff in her vehicle

3) fairness-she believes that if a rule is in place for any reason it should be applied 100 percent and all laws, penalties and reporting of infractions should be completely applied.   (You know how you will come to a 4 way stop and roll through it because there is no one in any direction?  She can't handle that, it can cause her to have an emotional breakdown including shaking). That's why she has called the police on me more than once for parking in spots that are "no parking" at the school to unload band equipment or furniture.   She can't handle it.


But for work, she has found a place that is far beneath her skills and abilities that affords her the flexibility to go to every single civic event that exists.   She is on the school board for a massive school district.   She attends every single solitary PTA meeting for every grade in every school in the district (there are three high schools, 12 middle schools and several dozen elementary schools with ober 40k kids.  Every principal coffee with parents every band parent meeting.   My kids have complained their whole lives that she is never at home and she is always the very last to leave any of these events.  She can't miss them.   

[bloomie]

She couldn't handle it.  Again she is highly functioning, valedictorian in high school, triple major in college, top of her law school and extremely talented at detail-oriented things. 

But she can't handle other people ever touching her stuff.

May I kindly point out that you may want to rethink how you view someone who leaves a job because the fridge is cleaned out each Friday, refuses to cohabitate with you in a reasonable and fair, reciprocal manner, hoards every piece of paper that comes into the home leading to masses of problems in your home, (just to name a few of the many things you describe dealing with) as 'high functioning'.

That is about as low functioning as one can get from where I sit on this side of the screen. All of the traits and behaviors you describe with your wife seem debilitating where it matters most... in real life, one on one, accountable, intimate relationships.

I am sorry that you are living with all of this. It truly seems awful.

[Prototypian]

It's true that she lacks social skills and has OCPD.  I do as well.   When I speak of high functioning I'm talking in the OCPD or high functioning Narc world.  I have a book on my shelf called "working for a narcissistic boss".   The book details how Jack Welch on the day that the Quarterly report for GE, bound and printed and labeled for mail for thousands of shareholders was to go out he decided to change the chairmans message to the shareholders and when the head of his communications objected as did his CFO, he terminated the comms person and threatened to terminate the CFO while the board overruled him on that one.   But he had the whole quarterly report held up, reprinted and mailed out.  It cost over 100k.  And that's a pain and seems like a waste.   Yet the following quarter GE stock was up over 14 percent with continued record returns.   The man was and remains an ass.  But he was beyond high functioning.   

That's a silly example.   But my spouse is able to navigate legal housing and fair housing act stuff like almost no one and in our state, there isn't a state rep or state senator that doesn't have her on speed dial for school finance discussions.

It's a characteristic trait of OCPD that these people wind up absolute pit bulls of productivity and detail-oriented change management.   They're a mess in home life but if you want complex bureaucracy understood and navigated they are the top of the food chain.   I'm not staying this is a pass for her at all.

I'm not to blame for her actions.   I am to blame for putting up with it but that's my choice and I've got my own autism-based spectrum to deal with in my life.  That's not an excuse, I just am who I am.

I wish she would change but too many attempts have been made and I get tired.   Threats don't work, crucial conversations don't work and pleading doesn't work. 

But I am learning the behaviors. I have gotten her to agree to not yell or be violently angry about things that happen that are not ill intentioned. 

I've chatted about this before: I have what used to be called Asperger's.   I have too many degrees to list, Im a professor of engineering and chemistry, and I lead R&D for an advanced technology think tank firm and I lead systems architecture for one do the biggest tech companies in the world.   I do tons of stuff, speak at conferences, discuss R&D with major programs but I have lost my keys so much my son bought and programmed a tile for me a few years ago.  My t shirts are often wrong side out and I don't notice.  I wouldn't realize there was tension in a room if there was north and south Korean diplomats at a table.   I have trouble remembering who I'm talking to and I say things that are brutally honest without ever even realizing it.  The companies I work with treat me as a high functioning idiot.  Project managers and patent attorneys and an admin assistant cover most of the stuff I do and try to keep me on track and it mostly works. 

What I've learned to do with my wife and continue to develop as learning is to characterize the way she gets angry and address that in specific instances and hold my ground about that behavior.  I can not keep her from getting upset when I load the dishwasher in a way she sees as incorrect.   But I can let her know that I won't accept her being angry at me and yelling for doing it that way.   And I have learned with help that I shouldn't care that she is in the back of her head very upset about the dishwasher.  I can't fix that but I can be treated better and that's slowly improving.

[keepmoving]

Jsinjin, the OCPD traits you mention really hit home for me. My uNPD father had a similar 'order of operations' for personal property, purchases, lifestyle choices, or if we forgot them or didn't follow how the logic of one rule followed to another into another area, and would often feel we were 'breaking' his rules (either by forgetting them or not understanding the way they extended over other things) in order to hurt him. He did seem hurt that we would do this to him.

I would try to explain to my father that I wasn't doing anything to intentionally hurt him but that, for example, I wanted to invite my friend over and there was piles and piles of his junk (his hoard), through the walkway of the house and it was embarrassing. Then he would berate me for being embarrassed of him.

1) no waste-no wasted electricity, no wasted food, no wasted water, no wasted recycling, no waste or loss of anything that could have a current or future use of any type.

My father also had very environmental and ethical ideals he lived by (but would make random exceptions for himself, that we were not allowed to comment on), that made it difficult to resist the iron fist way he implemented them. Like the infallible morality was the perfect validation for him to exert control of the household choices, finances, management etc. I also wonder if this was a perfect excuse for him to yell at us (express his frustrations and anger) and not feel like a bad guy, berating us for our long showers or not completely and correctly loading the dishwasher etc.

It can be incredibly draining to try to protect someone from their emotions or potential emotions. I am glad to hear you are no longer seeking to change your spouse but rather creating boundaries to protect yourself. It seems like a way to unload the mental drag that having a person with many rules can have on you, especially in your personal space.