Need answers

[Markclo1]

hi, i went no contact with my father a few years back because of all kinds of dysfunction in my family, and because of scapegoating behavior towards me going back many years. I initially took these steps to put some boundaries in place but instead was blamed by both my sister and father for being selfish. In the past couple of years i have tried to reach out to my dad a couple of times, to test the water and see if anything had changed. He has either completely ignored my attempts to reach out to him or responded with very aggressive and rude 1 line comments, basically telling me to move on. I have accepted i will not have any relationship with him moving forward, that nothing will change. In the last couple of years, my sister has also cut me out of her life. She says that i am angry and cant have a relationship with me anymore. I have done a lot of research on this topic over the years and i understand these are dynamics of a dysfunctional family. Its hard but i know im being punished for standing up to them, espeically my dad and that my sister is the enabler. Do you ever really get answers from people like this in dysfunctional families for their behavior. That's one thing i am continuing to struggle with, their complete lack of accountability and willingness to answer for their responses to me. How do you let go of this once and for all?

[Rebel13]

Hi Markclo1! It sure is hard to be the scapegoat, and to want a good relationship with someone who might not be capable of having one. I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. In my experience, there isn't any "accountability" with difficult people, because in their minds, they have not done anything wrong. They can't "answer" for something they don't believe they have done.

Many years ago I moved far away from my family because of these dynamics, and I have built a life for myself that I really love, with good relationships with people who care for me and treat me well. I had to let go of any hope that my family members or my relationships with them would change, and focus on my own wants and needs, and how I could bring about the life that I wanted to live. The more I satisfied my own longings, the less I felt the pull to twist myself into a pretzel trying to maintain mostly one-sided family relationships. I only fully realized this last year when I visited my mother for the first time in 9 years, when we had contact only via text, phone, and twice-yearly Zoom calls. She had a major tantrum before I even arrived at her home, and that was when I realized that I'm not used to being treated like that any more! The people in my life are kind and considerate, they know how to talk things out, and apologize when they have behaved badly. It was really a shocking contrast and I was so pleased and proud of how far I had gone towards rescuing myself from my mom's drama and abuse.

I don't know if the desire to have good relationships with family members ever goes away. There are multiple messages here lately from people talking about their sadness and sense of loss for the parent or sibling they never had, instead of the difficult one they did have. But I do know that, for me, distance and taking care of myself have made my life a lot better. I hope you can find the support and resources here to create the life that you want for yourself!

[bloomie]

Markclo1 - sadly, some of our family members are not healthy enough to have a respectful, reasonably reciprocal, kind relationship with.

I love this quote from Barb Schmidt: "There is not one person walking this earth that is worth you lying awake at night feeling you are not good enough."

At some point, we have to stop reaching out, stop expecting accountability or remorse, let go of the dream of 'family' that loves us enough to treat us as we deserve. It is exhausting to walk around grieving, unsure, waiting for them to change or see the wrongs they have done us.

As Rebel13 shares, there is healing and rebuilding in distancing, grieving, believing them when they make it clear they want nothing to do with us, and making a life for ourselves that honors who we are and what we have to offer in relationship with healthy enough others.

Find your people. These are not your people! 

[Defiantdaughter1]

PD people aren't self-aware enough to know they're mistreating others. It can be due to arrogance or emotional immaturity caused by personality disorders. They will never believe anything is their fault.

[Markclo1]

Hi everybody, thanks for the responses. i find it hard to get my head around how family can treat you like this, but i will continue to work on letting go.

[sunshine702]

Yeah I desperately want an I'm sorry for a situation I am in the middle of.  Does not look like I am going to get it.  I don't know if it is shame or shadow self blindness but it is hurting me a lot too.   A lot. 

[bloomie]

Markclo1 - something I have been learning more about recently that has been helpful is a kind of rethinking of the grief process to include something identified as Ambiguous Loss.

Here is an excerpt from an article that sums it up:

Ambiguous loss is a person's profound sense of loss and sadness that is not associated with a death of a loved one. It can be a loss of emotional connection when a person's physical presence remains, or when that emotional connection remains but a physical connection is lost. Often, there isn't a sense of closure.

Ambiguous loss can feel lonely, stressful and confusing. Your feelings need to be validated and the significance of the experience recognized. However, there's often no formal recognition from others that a loss has occurred — or if others do acknowledge it, they show no recognition that it is of any major significance. You may have intense sorrow, numbness, bitterness, persistent longing, pain, rumination, guilt and anger.

author: Rich Oswald full article found here: Unnamed Pain: Coping with Ambiguous Loss

The title "Unnamed Pain" really hits home for those of us who have lost loved ones to estrangement, unmannaged or unrecognized mental health issues, addictions, toxic familial patterns.. and the list goes on.

How does one express the depth of sorrow that follows from a father whose response to an adult child attempting to reconnect and work through things is "get over it"?

There are not many places in daily life where we can gain support and understanding around the types of losses that are not easy to name and many people are uncomfortable with; like family estrangement.

All of this to say that NC and even vLC can involve a lot of emotional resources to initiate and maintain. For most of us it is a last resort in a long line of excruciating circumstances with a loved one. I hope shedding bit of light on just how hard this is and that grieving this unnamed, ambiguous loss will offer some path forward to letting go and eventual peace!

[JustKathy]

Yeah I desperately want an I'm sorry for a situation I am in the middle of.  Does not look like I am going to get it.

This is so hard. We all want to believe that one day they'll realize how much they've hurt us and offer an apology, but the truth is, they will not. Not ever. Being cruel was their intention, not their mistake. They won't apologize for something they're not sorry for.

My parents are both gone now, and both died without ever apologizing. I never expected it from my Nmother, but after she died I held onto hope that my enFather would feel some remorse. I remained NC but told myself I would resume contact if he apologized to me. Instead, I got birthday and holiday cards guilting me with lines like, "It would be decent of you to call me." I was NC when he died. I never got that apology.

I wish could have accepted that earlier and not waited for something that was never going to happen, but I had to hold onto hope. I guess I needed to believe that at least one of my parents loved me. I think that's normal. It's hard to accept that our family doesn't love us.

Its hard but i know im being punished for standing up to them, espeically my dad and that my sister is the enabler. Do you ever really get answers from people like this in dysfunctional families for their behavior.

You'll never get answers from them. Excuses, maybe, but not answers. These people are in a cult. The enabler is brainwashed and will never be normal.

As hard as it was to go NC, I say with complete certainty that it was the right move. Going NC brings with it a lot of pain and a lot of grieving. But staying in that toxic environment is far worse. Now that I'm coming out on the other side of it, I can definitely say NC was the right move.

Hugs to all.
 

[Adria]

Markclo1,

I'm so sorry for your loss.  I have suffered as well under these horrible family dynamics, and it is so hard to see someone new in the same situation.  It is so totally unfair to be dismissed like we were never part of their life.

I can say that I have been NC from my whole family, including sisters and relatives, for over thirty years now. It has been quite a lonely road.  I moved to the other side of the country nearly 20 years ago to get away from the lies of the smear campaigns. 

I am much like you and others here.  Some days, I still hope, wish, and expect something to change even though I know it won't.  My mom passed away years ago and no one told me.  Now, I've heard through a friend of a friend that my dad is laid up in a nursing home. 

Husband and I are going to home town this year for a couple weeks to see if we dare move back.  Thinking about it because most relatives are deceased now and it might not be as scary. Still have good friends to go back to.  Don't know if I dare go see him or not. But, I have tried in the past and received the same cold and heartless response as you.  If I go it will be for me not for him.

Anyway, my point is, we are grieving living deaths.  There is no real finality to it until they pass away.  That is why it is so difficult.  Our head knows the reality of it all, but our heart is till holding out for hope that one day, maybe, just maybe, they will see the light and love us for the kind, caring people that we are. 

Unfortunately, these situations aren't like the movies. I suppose, we are better off in some ways because we have a heart and empathy and compassion.  They feel none of that.  But, on the other hand, we hurt, they don't. 

A wise minister told me one time that I will probably never truly get over it.  But, that I would have more good days than bad.  That really gave me a lot of solace because I was always looking for my family to come back and heal me.  Once he told me such a blatant truth, I could relax more knowing that it was going to be hard and lonely road, but I would eventually get to a place of healing, but not to expect too much of myself on the days that were difficult. He taught me to be realistic and to also be patient and kind with myself on this unfortunate journey. I guess we all have to learn to play the hand we are dealt, and accept it the best we can.

This is a very emotional journey. It is like a puzzle that never truly gets solved.  We have to learn to be our own best friend and cheerleader.  Please know that you are stronger than you know and will continue to get stronger.  The best thing I've found to do with this mess is to turn it into something positive to help other people. It has helped me to become more compassionate towards others and to have eyes to see the loneliness in other people's eyes in this world.  I try to give back by listening to people and offering comfort, something I never received.  The most important thing is that you stay true to yourself. Then you will never have any regrets.  Hugs, Adria

[JLS]

Hey markclo, I feel you, I am also the scapegoat and like you over the years I have asked for acknowledgment or apology or some sort of conversation to understand or fix the dynamic.  I am yet to get it.  In fact I was recently told that there would be nothing and if I wasn't happy with that then yes I should leave so I am now NC. It's probably the closest I'm going to get to honesty but I did tell my parent that if they would rather lose the relationship than simply apologise then it's for the best I leave. Their answer was I should leave.  That is how against accountability they are. That's how against a conversation they are.

I have come to understand the hurt will be a lifetime one however that doesn't mean it has to define me or control me, it's something I need to learn to manage when emotions come up. I recently read 'Disentangling from emotionally immature people" by Lindsay Gibson and this was the first times I really understood the psychology behind the behaviours, she explained it so well.  She explains how they think about things and it really gave me a better understanding of how and why there won't be accountability. It's much better than her other books, IMO.

[JLS]

Are you familiar with the "Let Them" theory?  I saw this online and it helps me a lot.

I'll tell you the more I grow the more I am okay with accepting the "Let Them" in my own life and relationships. Even family can mistreat and disrespect you.

This is something that took me a very long time to learn. I used to tolerate a lot because I didn't want to lose people. I learned the hard way if they were really my people they would never treat me like that. Don't make the mistake of being so understanding and forgiving that you overlook the fact that you're being repeatedly
disrespected.

Let them be upset. Let them judge you. Let them misunderstand you. Let them gossip about you, Let them ignore you. Let them be "right." Let them doubt you. Let them not like you. Let them not speak to you. Let them run your name in the ground. Let them make you out to be the villain. Whatever it is that people want to say about you, let them! Kindly step aside and LET THEM.

The hard truth is they know how much they are hurting you. They just simply don't care. They did it knowing it could cause them to lose you. They did it anyway.  People that love you care about how they make you feel. The end. Let them go.

There will be people that would rather lose you than be honest about what they've done to you. Let them go.

The lack of respect was the closure. The lack of apology was the closure. The lack of care was the closure. The lack of accountability was the closure. The lack of honesty was the closure. Let them go.

Make the decision to no longer sit at tables where you might be the topic when you get up. Let them go.

You can still be kind. You can even still love them deeply. But do it from the distance they created in their words and actions. Access to you is a privilege they have proven they can't be trusted with. Let them go.

You don't need to tell your side of the story. God already knows. Let God fight the battle for you. Let them go.

It's taken me a long time to get here. Sleepless nights, countless tears, managing a range of emotions filled with anger, disappointment, confusion and deep hurt. Lots of self reflection, self preservation, deep prayer and seeking wisdom from those much wiser than me.

If you are struggling with this please know you are not alone. We will never understand why hurt people hurt people. But we can do the hard work to grow ourselves. Because healed people do in fact heal people.

Don't you dare let them steal your joy. Don't you dare let them steal your light. Don't you dare let them steal your peace. You are in control of that. Hold tight to what you can control and release your grip on what you can't control.

Let them go.

[footprint33]

Let them be upset. Let them judge you. Let them misunderstand you. Let them gossip about you, Let them ignore you. Let them be "right." Let them doubt you. Let them not like you. Let them not speak to you. Let them run your name in the ground. Let them make you out to be the villain. Whatever it is that people want to say about you, let them! Kindly step aside and LET THEM.

This is such a great quote, JLS, and it's coming at a good time for me too. At the end of the day, these people are not made of the cloth of an empathetic human being, nor loving parent. They do not acknowledge what they do and will always project out their behavior onto their victims. We have to get to a point of not caring and be able to move on from all of the cruelty

Markclo, I can really relate to your post, in part because I have a soft spot for my father. Bad things happened with my family of origin shortly after my first child was born in 2009, and that was my wake up call that things weren't right. The things they did were malicious. I went VLC for several years, though trying to throw out lines of love here and there during those years in the hopes that I could maintain a relationship with my parents. One of the main things I wanted for them to do was to acknowledge their actions, But they made it clear that they'd never acknowledge anything.

In any case, I then went full NC and stayed that way from 2016-2021. I have to say, those were the best 5 years and there were many days, sometimes even months, when I didn't think at all about them. But then I got wind that my father was ill. I decided I might regret it if he died and I'd never contacted him again, so I wrote him an email. It's a long story, but that led to one brother contacting me and I thought maybe he and I would have a positive, new relationship.I felt at the time that I was craving "family" and that my brother could be that person. I learned about 6 months ago that he had no interest in having a relationship with me and was only in contact with me for some very toxic reasons related to wanting to be in control of the narrative about who I am. My father never responded much back in 2021 when I wrote to him, which was very disappointing and sad for me at the time.

The thing I most relate to is how they are gaslighting you and making you out to be the angry one when you've tried so much to maintain a relationship but have been forced to distance yourself because they're so toxic. This is exactly what happened to me. First they did very cruel things to me. I naturally distanced myself but still tried to throw out lines in the hope that something in the relationship could be healed. They responded with anger, saying that I was angry and had issues because I'd distanced myself. And then, if I ever fell for the bait, which was that I was a mean daughter who didn't care for my parents and so reached out to them, they responded with frigid coldness.

If yours are anything like mine, they'll never acknowledge anything. You deserve good, loving people in your life. As a child, you probably bonded with your father, and these bonds are tough to break though you can do it.

footprint

[workinprogress7]

Markclo1 - I am sorry you are going through this. I think it may be the most difficult part of the process of detaching from abusive people, because it can be so hard to reconcile what we had hoped could be with what actually happened.

So much good advice on this thread so far, I hope you are finding it helpful too.

People that love you care about how they make you feel. The end. Let them go.

There will be people that would rather lose you than be honest about what they've done to you. Let them go.

The lack of respect was the closure. The lack of apology was the closure. The lack of care was the closure. The lack of accountability was the closure. The lack of honesty was the closure. Let them go.

Thankful for this reminder right now. I am 42 and in the midst of going fully NC with my father. After an awful string of particularly cruel encounters with him late last year, I decided to go low contact. I sent him an email detailing some of his specific acts of belittlement and gaslighting a few months later, trying to make it clear that his behaviour is hurtful, and that I am no longer interested in subjecting myself to his nonsense.

It was radio silence for months, until tonight. He sent a nasty email full of insults, accusing me of hysteria and making an astonishing number of assumptions about me and my life. He did not acknowledge a single point from my prior email to him, and instead used several paragraphs to continue an argument we'd had during my last visit, that I had walked away from.

After all of the ugly comments and cruelty, he had the nerve to end the email with some kind words and signed it "with love".

I hadn't lost all hope that things could be better with him, until now. Unfortunately he has only managed to reinforce my understanding of the toxic dynamic I have endured with him since childhood. There will never be accountability or an apology from him, there will never be an acknowledgment that my feelings have ever mattered. If he actually loved me, he would care that he has hurt me, and instead he avoided responsibility and projected the blame for our poor relationship all onto me.

I am done trying to bridge this divide. I have been told again and again by my father that there must be something fundamentally wrong with me, how irrational I was to get upset after enduring his cruelty well into my adulthood. He can believe what he wants. I don't know that I will ever stop grieving what I had hoped could still be, or what I am now having to admit never was.

The lack of respect, accountability, or kindness is the closure I will have to accept.