Reactions To Enforcing Boundaries

[j.banquo]

My 82yo UnBPD mother is injured, and I am doing a lot of caretaking work, and I'm living in her home.

I've, perhaps foolishly, tried to talk to her about micromanaging.

So, when I tried to point out there was some of that going on, she told me she felt like she had to be too careful and sensitive with me. She told me I had an overactive idea of what micromanaging is

I wasn't thinking and asked her what she'd liked about the dinner, and she just let loose, in a pleasant tone, about everything she didn't like, and I just seized up and had to close my eyes and breathe.

Then she did it again, asking if I'd forgotten the dog's pill, I told her to cut it out, she started raising her voice, and I told her to stop that too.

I assume this is just what I'm in for, for actually enforcing boundaries. Constant push-back and punishing statements and making the truth go hazy.

Anyone else?

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Your post is about one of the things I find most relevant and interesting about dealing with those who have PD. Boundaries.
 
There is great information on this website in the Toolbox section on Boundaries. There are also other very recent posts on this topic as well. I believe you may find that helpful. 

I think boundaries are for us and about the conditions we allow in our life. I do not think it is for what we tell others to do or not do. I interpret boundaries to be about becoming a bit of a "gatekeeper" for what we allow in our lives, what we interact with, what we give our attention to, talk about, and tolerate.

If something occurs or someone else does or says something that is outside our boundaries we can calmly say something such as "I am not going to talk about that" or "That is not an option." The other person can keep doing whatever they choose, but it will not go further with us. The other person can see they are going nowhere and either 1) stop, or 2) keep going at which point we can physically walk away or hang up the phone, etc. We show them where our boundaries are by our actions (or sometimes, by not interacting) and we live them every day. It is not just a one-time action then we are done with it.
 
I think it can be easy to say, but not easy to do. The more you do it though, it is sort of like building a muscle that gets stronger over time. It gets easier. You can become clearer in your boundaries, and it can be very empowering. There will be push-back from them, always. They will ask why you are not going talking about something or not doing something more, better, faster, etc. 

The tricky part it seems is that when we defend our boundaries, it means we are still engaged in some amount of contact with them and exposed to the behaviors we find hurtful. Boundaries do not stop what they do. It limits our exposure, the impact, and hopefully increases our level of peace. 
   

[Queenfrog]

Hi, there! My PD spouse micromanages me a lot - for over 30 years. He's 80 and I'm worried it will get worse. Telling him to cut it out has had zero effect, though I've said it countless times. Blueberry Pancakes made a key point: Boundaries aren't about getting the other person to stop what they are doing, they are about what YOU will say or do.

Sometimes, I don't answer or respond. Just let his question or instruction hang. It's all about his compulsive need for reassurance and I'm trying to learn how to not feed that. It's quite amazing - often he cannot let it go, no matter how trivial or obvious, because he has to have that ritualistic reassurance.
Sometimes, I say "I told you X. That means X. You don't need the details"
Sometimes, I answer with the opposite of what he wants to hear or otherwise turn it into a joke. Like, "no, I'm NOT going to look behind me before I pull out of the parking space! So there!"
Sometimes, I use the occasion to remind him (and myself) that I am a competent adult and I don't need him to tell me how to do things.
Sometimes, I answer in a sweet singsong voice (we use "yes dear" a lot at our house) and I don't let it bother me. I should probably do less of that?
Sometimes, when he says something like "stand up and come over here to look at something with me," I'll say something like "wait, so you want me to stand up FIRST and THEN go over there?? And THEN look at something??" Another jokey type of response. (I also call him out often on using the command imperative verb tense with me, but that's a different topic.)
Sometimes, I say "I'll do it my way."
Sometimes I stop what I'm doing and tell him he can do it himself. I refuse to have another argument about how to load the dishwasher or use the garbage disposal, so he gets to do all the dishes.

I hope you can avoid being upset by your mom's micromanaging. I know that seizing-up feeling all too well!

[NarcKiddo]

I used to have dogs. I sometimes think back to training them when I think about enforcing boundaries, because they don't speak human. I can say "no" or "stop" until I am blue in the face and it won't stop them. In fact it may make them do whatever it is even more, because I am now engaging with them and getting ever more irked in the face of what I see as their recalcitrance. While I am misreading their motives they are misreading my emotion as excitement.

It was far more effective for things to become instantly boring when the dogs did something I did not want. There was no reward for barking or jumping up. Being nice and waiting politely for the lead to be put on resulted in the longed-for walk happening much faster.

I know humans are not dogs but the principles can still work. Also, I completely agree with the others who have said that boundaries are things you enforce for yourself. They do not necessarily even need to be communicated specifically. If you disengage every time they shout or criticise the PD soon learns that behaviour does not reward them. And if you have a PD who enjoys winding you up then telling them precisely what annoys you simply gives them more ammunition.

[Rebel13]

I know humans are not dogs but the principles can still work.

Isn't it amazing how many principles of dog training can apply to difficult humans?!!!??  You are spot on here, NarcKiddo.

[j.banquo]

I guess that... without any way to enforce boundaries, no consequences I can impose, I'm sort of up a creek.

It feels like bringing up issues and things that are harmful to me is just making me into more of a target, or I'm giving her ammunition, or at best she doesn't care at all about what I'm saying and keeps hurting me, which feels horrible.

[MaxedOut]

I am sorry you are going through this. I do a lot of caretaking for my uPDW and micromanaging is definitely a common thing. I don't have any magic answers and it isn't resolved. I have learned a few things applicable to my situation...

Labeling her behavior gives her something to argue or get angry about. Like your mother pushing on the definition of micromanaging, there is now a label to argue about, and whether someone fits it, and now they're activated by criticism. Also, they now have a convenient thing to deflect the conversation towards instead of the behavior. Same goes for assumptions about why the behavior is happening (e.g., you must think I'm incompetent given the micromanaging). Sometimes humor, as Queen Frog mentions, can be a good reset though ("it's a damn miracle that I managed to live through the 20 years of driving before we met"). Also, my SO assumes intent, thinking, feelings for me and others all the time and it is maddening. I don't want to do that back and—this has been a hard one for my personality to accept—I don't need to understand the behavior. I need the behavior to stop.

Ultimately, whatever is happening is behavior/treatment I don't like for me. Even if 90% of people would also not like it, it is ultimately about what I find acceptable for me. And likely it is behavior I don't want from others either.

Bringing those things together, my therapist recommended a way to state stuff that does seem to work better. I can't remember the framework name but basically:


• When you/or "someone" does [specific behavior that is not getting into interpretation],
• I feel [brief feeling description, stick with feelings, not feeling-you-x—-].

That is usually what I do first time of implementing. When it happens again...

• When you [behavior],
• I feel [even shorter feeling statement].
• What I'd like is for [super reasonable way to handle things or, if that is a bridge too far, what I'd like to try is____].

If that doesn't work or there is a rejection of doing things differently, adding a fourth boundary statement that is about my behavior and I am willing to enforce.


• When this happens, I will [leave the room, no longer do x, etc.]

This works far better on people who aren't mentally ill. Like typically a positive response and willingness to change expressed on the spot.

My experience is it doesn't do that. But it seems less likely to hook into conflict spirals. And it is easier to refer back to and restate. One thing that was helpful for me to learn is that the emotional layering of PD makes more information about someone else's reality problematic rather than helpful. So this method helps keeps things focused and simple. So sometimes me stating the feelings part gets a "right, it's all about you and your feelings" reaction.

But the behavior was an identifiable thing. I am saying my feelings. I am stating what I want, not saying how she/people *should* act. If she says something like what about her needs/etc.  I can just say, "your feelings are important too" or "I don't want you to feel this way from things I do either, it's important we figure out a way to move forward where we both feel we're being treated [respectfully, fairly, with sensitivity, etc.].[/li]

[j.banquo]

I am sorry you are going through this. I do a lot of caretaking for my uPDW and micromanaging is definitely a common thing. I don't have any magic answers and it isn't resolved. I have learned a few things applicable to my situation...

All very good insight and advice, thank you![/list]

[emoo_mon]

Yes, nothing triggers my BPD wife more than me enforcing a personal boundary. It's guaranteed to escalate. After I enforce a boundary, I can be sure that the next things coming my way are death wishes, screaming ("I fucking despise you"), threatening to move out and take our child, claims that she is already working with a divorce lawyer (false).

It's so extreme and scary that for a long time I had no boundaries whatsoever. I would just immediately grovel to the maximum extent during her rages. But of course even that didn't ultimately satisfy her.

[easterncappy]

My experience:

Mom (dependent and/or borderline suspected, maybe just major traits if not full disorder) - "this isn't the real you... you've changed... (person/thing) is brainwashing you against us... please come back, be the real you again..."

Former friend (diagnosed borderline) - same kind of spiel about how "this isn't the real you...", except there were a lot of accusations about how I'm a selfish, uncharitable, cruel, abusive, etc. person and "need to hear him out" and "see his version of things". Eventually after I doubled down on the boundaries and told him that I have heard his perspective, but that I reject it, and that I will not stand to be accused of being a bad person because I put up boundaries, he blocked me everywhere and started trying to smear me to my friends.

Very dysfunctional family at our old church who I suspect have some NPD traits - didn't even react to our attempts at boundaries, beyond the man telling my husband I'm a b-word for female dog and that I'm dragging him to hell. Since then, radio silence. We got discarded, and I'm fine with that.

Older female relative with suspected NPD - blocked and deleted everywhere because I told her I'm not going to take down Facebook posts because she doesn't like them anymore (I was like 17 and the posts had nothing to do with her or anything about her).

A lot of discarding, except for my mom.

[FiveForFighting]

Yes, nothing triggers my BPD wife more than me enforcing a personal boundary. It's guaranteed to escalate. After I enforce a boundary, I can be sure that the next things coming my way are death wishes, screaming ("I fucking despise you"), threatening to move out and take our child, claims that she is already working with a divorce lawyer (false).

It's so extreme and scary that for a long time I had no boundaries whatsoever. I would just immediately grovel to the maximum extent during her rages. But of course even that didn't ultimately satisfy her.

^^This..... I enforce no boundaries at all WRT my uNPDw. Question for you... what happens after the rage-a-palooza? I imagine there would be the stonewalling and silence, blame-casting and victim mentality... all with no apology whatsoever. My wife has completely disregarded any boundaries i had tried to convey.. that was early on. Now its been 26 years and I suppose there is no point in starting now.