Mind reading

[easterncappy]

I recently had a falling out with a friend who had BPD - I was being silly and decided to give someone with a PD a chance, because "he's in therapy and working on it". After all, BPD is the one that most people can manage by their middle ages, and he was up there in age. I was wrong. One of the biggest problems with him was the constant mind reading.

With my parents (unspecified and undiagnosed PD, but my therapist agrees almost certainly some type of PD), there was a small degree of mind reading (small compared to my former friend with BPD). Snap judgments, being certain of the worst possible conclusion about someone, projecting their feelings onto others' actions, etc.

With this guy? It was full blown believing that he can see into the souls of other people. During the time I knew him, he pushed several people away with this behavior, and didn't see why. One girl got really tired of him constantly trying to explain to her how her fiance really feels about her, what kind of people her other friends really were, and how she really feels about other things. He tried this with me and my husband as well. In the beginning I somewhat believed maybe he is seeing something we aren't. By the end, I realized he's just imagining everyone in the worst possible light and feels a need to control other people's relationships and perceptions of each other. I can't read his mind (lol), but it does really feel like he genuinely believes these nasty things about everyone.

Was your pwPD like this?

[LemonLime]

My UPD sib has literally told me that she possesses special powers to see things other people can't see.
 

[Catothecat]

What can I say? Yes indeed! I had a NPD friend who claimed psychic powers, could communicate via his mind, could foretell the future, saw ghosts, had "prophetic" dreams, and could see through other people's "lies and self-delusions" because he was just oh-so-specially gifted.  He wouldn't hesitate to tell me I was wrong about something or someone based on nothing other than "I know it."  He then expected me to believe him...just because.  For a long time I thought he was intentionally making it up as he went along and didn't take this type of talk very seriously, I assumed it was just part of his narcissistic need for attention and nothing more.  But then I realized he actually believed what he said.  He was of the type who, if he thought it and said it, it was then made real.  Conversely, if he made a claim that turned out to be false and he couldn't deny it was false, he would simply say he'd never made the claim in the first place.  Or that I had misunderstood what he was talking about.

Finally it got too weird for me.  I realized I often came away from spending time with him feeling exhausted and even downright bad.  And as those feelings increased and became more of the norm, I decided to finally go NC. I still miss a lot of things about him, but the negative finally outweighed the positive.

[moglow]

I don't know about mind reading, but I do know mine can and does create a reality in her mind and refuses anything that conflicts with that. She'll lock down and keep on repeating it, all evidence to the contrary. Worse, she isn't about to listen to anyone saying anything she doesn't want to hear and agree with. Confrontation with anything opposing her views rarely end well.

After all, BPD is the one that most people can manage by their middle ages ...

That seems a rather definitive statement. "Can" may apply if one dedicates oneself to changing maladaptive behavior patterns, however my reading indicates that *most* do not. Even getting a diagnosis is extremely difficult. The old fallacy that BPD improves with age hasn't proven to be true at all. I agree the behaviors can and do shift with age for some, with mine it seems more of a manipulation when her old methods no longer work.

[square]

On the idea that BPD improves or even is cured with age, I have a theory.

It seems mental health professionals are the ones who say this. Not loved ones. I think for mental health professionals, the main aspects of BPD are self harm and suicidal ideation. I do believe those symptoms do in fact often ease with age. I believe there is often a decrease in "crisis" situations and in-patient care requirements. So the professional sees this as a great improvement or even remission.

Meanwhile at home, loved ones are still accused of all sorts of things, manipulation goes on, meltdowns continue, the whole nine yards. Except maybe no more hospitalizations.

On the main subject, my husband believes he can see people's true nature and motivations. He actually does have a good sense for people sometimes, but other times he is way off. His brand of mind reading is paranoid in nature, not narcissistic.

[easterncappy]

I don't believe that BPD really goes away with age. That is a line that he used on me that many people on social media repeat. I did believe him at first but then I realized, with age he is only getting less bold. It doesn't take a genius to realize the cause and effect of freak outs, threats, very very very overt manipulation, etc. not really getting desired results, plus as the zeal of youth goes away, I think a lot of people with BPD just end up having "quieter BPD" or "more covert BPD" or "BPD but the manipulation and other behaviors are not so in-your-face". This guy was in therapy and basically just learned how to be a more quiet, cunning, and convincing with his manipulation. He learned a lot of nice therapy words that he used to make himself sound better than he really was.

My therapist also repeated the sentiment but as we talked more about it, he was also referring to the really in-your-face BPD theatrics.

[TurnThePage]

My BPDH would tell me how I felt or how other people felt as a form of manipulation.

He tells me that he can hurt someone more with what he says than he ever could with his fists.(and he is Very proud of this)
 
As he has aged he has not gotten better, as others have said, he's just more covert.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Easterncappy,

I suspect that another word for what you're describing here is gaslighting. Saying things that are not accurate, is an extremely effective tactic used by people to manipulate, within a trauma bond. And yes, my PD parent did this.

As you wrote, he "tried this" with you and your DH but you didn't bond to him, and so because the bond was too weak, his gaslighting wasn't as effective. There needs to be a bond in place, and then the gaslighting is an effective way to keep the target off balance - questioning whether he is right or wrong about the things he's saying. It could be something he says about himself "I'm the most generous person I know!" or things about others.

Dr. Lindsay Gibson talks about this as well, with people who are not necessarily PD but who are emotionally immature. During conversations, they say and do things that confuse us, and she talks about how we end up feeling "brain scrambled". I spent my childhood in that thanks to all the disordered adults.

Whether he believes the things he says or not doesn't really matter because the goal is to get you to feel confused - questioning yourself and getting us confused / "scrambled". In my view, it is definitely possible for people to do this without being conscious of it.

The remedy to this is to walk away. A healthy person will not leave people feeling confused, brain scrambled and gaslit. I'm glad you are distancing yourself from him. He can't mindread.

Trees

[MaxedOut]

My SO has just gotten progressively worse (though mental health and physical disabilities are in the mix). And the mind reading is terrible, and SO is instantly reactive if I try to counter it usually. So on top of whatever incorrect (and usually negative and absolute) thong she asserts about what o feel, think, or believe, me (gently) trying to communicate what is actually going on in my own damn self = "I'm invalidating her." "I always have to be right." "I'm gaslighting her." Etc.

This is one of the hardest areas for me to apply the tools. I've gotten a lot better. I have to remind myself, no JADE, she simply won't accept what I say when activated anyway, and I can't control what she believes about me or anything else, and often it is designed as a hook or emotional manipulation.

Buy yeah, it is maddening. 

She 100% does it with everyone else. She is consumed by what others think about her, including strangers. And generally the stories she tells herself seem off base to me. Others have expressed bewilderment and frustration about these sorts of interactions. It is usually where splits occur; stuff that is not negative or is ambiguous is perceived as attacking and judging, etc.

[Ziggy52]

Growing up, mom told me how I felt, and why. During the process of going NC, it changed to "I know your thoughts and you're full of hate!" It's crazy making and disturbing. Arguing with someone about your own thoughts is absurd. It was clearly meant as a means of control. By then, the relationship was over for me, and I never responded.